My Pilot has the radio where the NAV normally is and I think it looks well integrated. Of course, the NAV on the Pilot is smaller, but if Honda does it in a similar fashion, I doubt that it will look like an after thought.
It definitely seems like a gamble. Great technology but expensive and restrictive. Both the wheels and chassis have to be specially designed to accept the tires. You'll also have to go to an authorized PAX service center for repairs or replacements.
I've read that the rolling resistance for the Michelin PAX tires can be as much as 12% less than conventional tires. Does anyone know what kind of gas savings this would translate into. Considering the decision to use VCM, it seems like the PAX tires may be a way for HONDA to squeeze every little bit of fuel economy out of the Odyssey they can.
That's scary...Not just because the car is specially designed to use the tires, but, according to the article, the car can't accept traditional tires. Unless they are talking about the wheels only. But the way that it is stated, is sounds like PAX or nothing...
Here's the quote: "And because a PAX-modified car can't accept traditional tires or SSTs, a customer with a flat must find an authorized PAX outlet to repair or replace the tire. "
I think (but not sure) they are just talking about the rims only. I know that the PAX tires require special rims as well as specialized mounting equipment. But I did catch the part in the article about having the chassis designed for them as well. I dunno. Don't know enough about it to say with certainty.
It does seem odd though that they would be trying to introduce such bleeding edge tire technology to a group of extremely conservative automobile purchasers. And though they state that Michelin has licensed the design to other makes, the other makes will have to pay a fee to Michelin for any tire they sell. If I were Goodyear, I would think it would be in my best interest to see Michelin fail. Why would I make a tire to THEIR design which I would have to pay an additional fee to them for? Wouldn't this guarantee that PAX tires will always be more expensive than conventional tires?
As far as the fuel savings, I thought this was in comparison to other run-flats. Not compared to conventional tires. I'll have to reread the article.
Michelin has a history of trying this type of stuff. I noticed the article only concentrated on the SUCCESSFUL inovations (steel belted radial) introduced by Michelin. It completely ignored the disaster they had in the '80s with the TRX concept, which, like the PAX system, required special rims.
>I've read that the rolling resistance for the Michelin PAX tires can be as much as 12% less >than conventional tires. Does anyone know what kind of gas savings this would translate into.
On the other hand, the PAX wheel/tire combo may be heavier than standard tire with the added weight of the support ring. So this may cancel out any gas saving by the rolling resistance reduction.
The more I read about this, the less I want to be any part of the experiment. Plus, I'm like the Europeans they mentioned: I still want a jack and spare tire on board.
Me too, don't like the idea. 1000 authorized stores in US? I don't know if that is enough. I bet most of them are in the metro area. And we are talking about minivan for family to every state/national parks for camping, touring. And SUV to exploiring the country road and wild life area with few people go. And you expect them to find a store nearby with equipment? Oh no, forget it! I want the traditional tires and let go the Lazy Suzy storage. The Ody already has plenty of room for all the stuffs I need. Listen up Honda: WE DON'T WANT THE PAX AS STANDARD!
I'd like to know how they can say a 1000 authorized stores. Do they just count up the number of authorized Michelin retailers? That can't be right; 1000 authorized dealers is only an average of 20 per state. If you figure that about 1/2 of that figure will be selected Honda dealers and 1/2 will be tire stores that leaves for some pretty slim pickings out on the hinterlands....
And consider that the Ody will be the ONLY vehicle sold in America with this system. Not sure that I'd want Cletus down at NTB trying to dig out the PAX shop manual for the proper use of the PAX tire mounting equipment.
Also, if you read the PAX website, they claim the 4 pax tires are lighter than the 5 regular tires. What they are not saying is that each tire/wheel is going to weigh more than the regular tire/wheel.
This increases the unsprung weight (tires/wheels) and hence the requires a suspension system geared for this. The whole idea of alloy wheels was to reduce the unsprung weight. Add PAX tires to it and now you got the same problem.
The 2004 Honday Odyssey looks might attractive at this point.
Fbear, I tried to, but it was hard to see over the ladies sitting in the car. It looked like it was just two captains chairs. I definately only saw two head rests. They did confirm that there was a lazy-susan, maybe it was down. Casper7777, the stereo was definitly located were we've seen the NAV system in other spy-photos. Where you put the single cd was at the very to of that center area followed by the stereo screen. The stereo control nobs were below that. There are radio controls and cruise control controls nicely intergrated into the steering wheel. The dashboard is divided into three parts. The upper part is dark colored plastic. The center part is silver (kind of similar to the dash design of the japanese Odyssey, but not as dramatic) I don't know if it is plastic, but it seems the look they are going for was a metal or aluminum look. The lower part of the dash was a light gray.
If I get a flat I want to fix/repair the tire at my leisure and ride on the spare for a few days/week until I have time to deal with it and find my best price. I don 't want to be tied down to immediatly having to use the 125 miles left on the PAX tire to hunt down an authorized store and pay the 'I have no choice' price and waste the whole day in the process.
I bet however, at least I hope Honda is this smart, to have all PAX locations pre-loaded into the GPS/NAV.
Me too, don't like the idea. 1000 authorized stores in US? I don't know if that is enough. I bet most of them are in the metro area. And we are talking about minivan for family to every state/national parks for camping, touring. And SUV to exploiring the country road and wild life area with few people go. And you expect them to find a store nearby with equipment? Oh no, forget it! I want the traditional tires and let go the Lazy Suzy storage. The Ody already has plenty of room for all the stuffs I need. Listen up Honda: WE DON'T WANT THE PAX AS STANDARD!
Spare tire is old technology. Millions of them get wasted in the junk yard at the end of life with hardly any use. They cost a lot to carry around in fuel (+environment) cost.
Some day we'll be driving cars without spare. (I bet people used to carry spare sparkplugs in 30s)
Is it just my eyes, or are there 2 (slightly different) body styles appearing in the 'spy photos'? The Ody pulling the trailer appears to be more sporty, with sharper lines & longer body, than the one in the photos taken by 'Blindeye' and the earlier dark blue ODY. ????? Perhaps the Touring model is the one pulling the trailer, complete with the PAX tires. ????
I have been using plugging method to repair flat tires myself for several years. They works very well. It is very simply to do. It takes about 5-10 minutes for front tires, and longer for rear tires due to un-mounting of wheels. You do have to carry a small air pump with you. For my BMW 540iA, I totally removed the full-size spare tire from the trunk to save weight (30lb+).
In the case of run-flats, I guess plugging would be a more popular choice since they would require special equipments to be un-mounted from wheels. If plugging is acceptable to you, then run-flats really only bring cost penalty to you every 40K miles or so when replacing them. On the up side, you get to repair your tire at a safe place in stead of at road side, in the rain or darkness.
Ceric, Plugging would be good IF it is allowed on a run flat. I have heard, but not confirmed, that you cannot repair a run flat tire. I don't know why you couldn't...but that's what I have heard.
Cooldad24, Plugging is a way to seal a hole in the tire. You use a tool that looks like a large needle (maybe a bit smaller than a #2 Philips). In the "eye" you insert a sticky rubber "rope" that is about 6" long until the ends are even. Then, you shove the tool into the hole in the tire, twist a few times, then pull it out, but not completely. You now have four pieces of rubber where the hole was. Now, you cut off the end and the tire is sealed. Never done it myself, but I have seen it done.
The other way to fix a hole is to use a patch (preferred method). However, this requires the tire to be removed and the patch is applied on the inside of the tire much like you patch a bicycle tube.
Thanks for explaining "plugging" for me in good details. Some would argue that "plugging" is NOT a permanent repair. From my experience, it works as well as if you visit a gas station repair shop. They do the same and charge you $15/$20 bucks.
From what I read about run-flats (haven't read PAX yet), run-flats with thick/strong side walls are most likely "plug-gable" if the puncture point is on the flat surface/contact patch. If the puncture is on the side wall, I don't think it is even "repair-able" even with patching. It's something to research the web about tonight. I have no definite answer whether run-flats can be plugged. We will see.
Thanks for the run-flat repair info. Three questions for you or anybody.
#1 How strong do you have to be to unmount and fix those tires? I don't want to be forced to ruin a $200 tire by driving 125 miles to the nearest help. (I do a 120 mile rural drive once a week--part of that time I'm even out of cell phone range.)
#2 What about other safety aspects of these tires? Is there any other way they contribute to overall driving safety? I don't mean the run flat part of them, but the performance/safety performance of them. If they're super safe in an additional way, then maybe they're worth the expense and hassle. But, I doubt it!
#3 Is there a good wear warranty? Sienna owners complain that their run-flats are wearing out fast--all four tires needing replacement at 20K in one case, I think. Since Siennas have electronic pressure sensors to warn of improper inflation, what possible reason could exist for Sienna run-flats to wear out so quickly? It's a very expensive tire to replace and getting four new ones every year would be an unacceptable expense. I'd appreciate any answers/insight on this tire issue. Just when I was getting close to a decision and had most of my questions answered, this new decision factor had to come up!
I just saw an interesting presentation (movie) at paxsystem.com. They show how a vehicle that looks to be a van can have space for 2nd and 3rd row seats to fold flat into the floor and have multiple configurations because of added space from not having a spare. I don't know if it breaks the rules of the board to post the link, since my last post with a link was deleted by the host. But go to the site and click on technology and then presentation. On the appearance page you can watch a movie. It's quite interesting.
Nothing like not having any choice for tire and wheels upgrades or replacement tires when they are damaged or wear out.
Good thing you can trust your local Honda dealer to give you a great deal on some PAX tires right along with the all the other great service pack deals they offer.
Really a major dumb move by Honda if they make PAX standard equipment.
I don't see what all the negativity toward PAX is all about. First of all, we don't know if it's standard equipment or not. Second of all, the idea of the PAX is that you don't have to look for a place to replace the tires right away. You can drive up to 100 miles at 50MPH. And I'm sure that's a conservative estimate. Now if you're in an area where you can't get to a metro area in 100 miles, do you think it would be safe for you to stop and change the tires in the middle of nowhere? I would rather have the PAX and pay a little more. It also save me the worry about my wife getting stranded with a flat. I think it's a winner to me. But of course I do agree that it should be standard on high-end models only.
From the picture, you can see that the tire surface is no different from that of a regular tire. Therefore, definitely "plug-repairable", IMHO.
Secondly, the PAX is an auxiliary support system unlike prior self-supporting run-flats, which are heavy and cause harsh ride, there seem to be no extra cost in manufacturing the tires. Of course, low volume would drive the price up a bit, but not like those self-supporting run-flat costing $250 a piece or more.
How difficult is plugging? IMHO, if you have the strength to dismount a wheel, you are able to plug a tire. The procedure is very simple. Note that certain types of damage cannot be repaired not to mention plugged.
"Plugs" are not an acceptable repair according to the Rubber Manufacturers Association, the trade group that acts as the common voice for the tire industry.
Plugs have a tendency to leak too often. Plus without removing the tire from the rim, there may be damage inside. I would think this would be particularly true for any sort of run flat tire.
Plugs should be considered a temporary repair - meaning hours and days, not weeks and months.
I would suggest that anyone with questions about repairing a pax system tire go to paxsystem.com and read through the entire presentation. You will learn quite a bit. For example, one thing I read is that the tire can be removed with a standard tire removal machine fitted with a kit to accept the pax system or a special pax system repair machine. That's enough for me.
Quick canvass of my family finds that the last time my mom, dad, brother, sister, wife or I had a flat was 1982. So I can't get too worried about "only" being able to travel 120 miles if I get a flat when I just don't expect to get one.
But among that same group of family members we have all been stranded several times in the last 10 years by a host of other issues- dead batteries, broken belts/hoses, mysterious "electrical" issues.
As far as family safety is concerned, I feel the run flats are a plus.
But I do understand the concern of getting trapped into a proprietary system with expensive maintenance. Let's hope that the system catches on. If Honda adopts it for several of its cars, that volume alone will be enough to bring service centers on line and probably convince other manufacturers to join Michelin, as well.
In my prior post, I mentioned that "some would argue that "plugging" is not a permanent fix...". For me, I did it twice and never has leaking problems. Of course, you got to use your own judgment on the damage and decide whether plugging is good enough. In most cases, plugging still can get you out of uncomfortable areas/situations quickly.
Personally, I would prefer PAX system for my wife, who drives minivan with my kids on board. For myself, I could still be happy with traditional tires plus a few kits w/o spare. In worse case, I call my roadside assistant for towing. For duration of owning my BMW for 6+ year, I only got one flat tire at home due to very slow leaking, thanks to radial technology.
Finally, let us not forget there are very bad things that could happen to tires such that the drivers lose control of their vehicles on highways. People died or injured because of those accidents. Run-flat technologies, no matter which kind, would certainly improve controllability of vehicles when those happen.
Is this really true about run flats being the kind of tire that could improve "controllability" of vehicles in the event of very bad things that could happen to tires? If so, then I would be willing to pay extra and even to get "locked into" a more expensive upkeep situation. I know how to change a regular tire (although I prefer not to!!!) but I don't know if I know how to control a 70 mph minivan in the event of a blow out. Or do blow outs not happen anymore even with regular tires. I am shamefully ignorant in this area. To get to the point--what is the safest tire for a minivan?
I don't claim to be an expert but from what I have read over the years, unless you are an experienced person, you have very little chance is controlling a vehicle at 70mph with a blown out tire. The first thing likely to happen is the driver stomps on the brake (big mistake!), the vehicle goes into a spin, then all are in in God's hands.
Supposedly, run-flat tires are able to remain on the wheels, either self-supporting through thick side walls, or auxiliary supporting through internal pad ring like in PAX system. Either case, you still have functional tires on your wheels, therefore, controllability is still available to you. You may experience an initial shaking/side-pulling when blown-out occurs, but not as dramatic as with regular tires.
I experienced a rear tire blown-out when I was 19 driving a fully loaded pickup truck (at slow speed). The vehicle pulled to one side immediately. The keys are (1) hold on to your steering wheel (2) never stomp on the brake, instead, let the vehicle come to a stop slowly.
Yes, I believe self/auxiliary supporting run-flat would help in blown-out situations. That is why I would like my wife to drive vehicles with them on. I don't think she has the skill and calm to handle situations like those.
Thank you for your helpful answer. The last time I heard about anybody having a blow out was when I was in 1974. Sometimes I see pieces of tire on the road and wonder if they are from blow outs. Do modern tires still blow out?
After viewing all the spy photos and reading all about the "new" Odyssey, I dont see much to make anyone trade up to an 05. Same body, flat sides fat rear end, same slots in rear for sliding doors. Bland styling. What's new? 15 more Horsepower, optional cylinder deactivation, Optional ? run flat tires. Questionable auto transmission with one more speed. The competition has caught up and it is a toss up as to the preferences of the buyer. Nothing sets the Odyssey apart!
You could call Jacques Nasser and Bill Ford and ask them if tires still blow out :-)
Tires can still fail. In the case of the Ford Explorers, it was a combination of hot roads (I believe all the tire failure accidents happened in the south), overloaded tires (the tire load rating left little breathing room in a packed SUV), low pressure (recommended by Ford to reduce ride harshness), and possible manufacturing defects. When the tires failed the driver often lost control. Given the high cetner of gravity in the Explorer, it was easily "tripped" and that led to the roll overs.
The above points to the fact that tires are most likely to fail when they are overloaded, improperly inflated, and very hot. Don't be tempted to stop at home depot and pick up 10 bags of ready mix when it is 98 degrees outside and you have 23 lbs of air in your tires.
Although minivans are large, their center of gravity is much lower than in an SUV, making them safer and less likely to trip and roll over if you loose control.
Several people, including the folks at NHTSA, have conducted tests and the forces involved aren't all that high. Provided the driver doesn't overreact by slamming on the brakes or jerking the steering wheel, the event should not lead to an out of control vehicle.
Pieces of tires along the highways:
These are usually trailer tires from big trucks. It is just coincidence that they are retreads. What happens is that one of the 4 tires picks up a nail and deflates, forcing the other 3 tires to carry the load - so each tire would be 33% overloaded. Because these tires are on the trailer, the truck driver can not feel anything wrong, so he doesn't slow down. Eventually one of the tires fails, and even though there will be a tremedous vibration, again, the truck driver can't feel it so he continues on. The tire then breaks apart, littering the highway with pieces.
It is common practice to put retreaded tires on trailer positions. Aside from the economy, it is also good for the environment. And there is no reason not to. A properly retreaded truck tire is very reliable.
agreed but, i think if you hit one of these retreads at high speed (either nowhere to go or attention span lapse) in a small car, or if one comes off a truck and in the process hits you, or you're in a high c.g. vehicle and you rapidly swerve to avoid the debris, the event scenario may be quite different.
Again..problem is not the retread. It's the lack of air in a tire that causes the high heat and failure of the carcass. If you see steel belt pieces (which is the case 99.9% of the time), it was due to lack of air in the tire, NOT a retread failure.
After checking out www.paxsystem.com, I find I am excited about the system and hope my touring model will have it. Perhaps I am just a sucker for cool sounding technology but I think that the system will add safety and value to my car.
One particular item of interest that I noticed on the pax site is that with PAX run flats, the driver may not even know when they are driving on low or even zero tire pressure. That is why the pressure monitoring system is an integral part of the PAX system. Despite my good intentions I do not manually check tire pressure nearly as often as I should so this feature will be quite welcome for me.
Regarding availability of service- It's just my guess but I think Honda joining the party will help PAX reach critical mass.
Tire manufacturers on board so far are: - Michelin - Goodyear - Pirelli - Dunlop If the latter 3 do not actually have product on the market yet, I think the volume of sales made possible by all the Hondas soon to have the system will encourage them to do so.
Cars already sporting the PAX system as either standard or optional are: - Audi A6 - Audi A8 - Renault Scenic - Rolls-Royce Phantom
No doubt Honda is coming early to the party but I am okay with that. For me, the benefits are worth the risk of being an early adopter. Time will tell.
Thanks for the replies. I'm starting to maybe want run-flats for blow-out protection/general safety. But what about road noise? This weekend I test drove both the 2004 Sienna and the 2004 Odyssey. Liked driving the Odyssey better but it the road noise was definitely a drawback. Almost enough to make me rule that vehicle out. Would run-flats make even more noise? Also, would a sound-deadening job (aftermarket) make it at least as quiet as a Sienna? If I do get a Sienna the only one with run flats is the one with AWD--which is probably not something worth getting in central Texas, right?
From the info posted on the PAX system, there's no reason to assume that the tires will be any more (or less) noisy than a normal tire. If anything, there is less difference in the tire from a standard one than there is in a traditional runflat.
So, the real question (which can't be answered until they are out) is if Honda did a good job with improvements to the noise level. COnsidering they have had 5 years to work on it, and it is one of the few common complaints since the '99s came out, I assume it is better.
Actually, It may not be the quietest thing on the road, but it really isn't "noisy" in my opinion. Of course, I drive a Miata on the highway with the top down, so I have a high tolerence for noise!
OT, but interesting: I dind the Miata quieter with the top down than with the top up on the highway. Also much airier.
Just for info, I actually saw a tread come off a car. The small car drove over a truck tread, and it peeled his tread off (read driver's side). He did not get a flat though, but he knew something was wrong and drove slowly over to the off ramp and exited the hiway.
> Tire manufacturers on board so far are: > - Michelin, Goodyear, Pirelli, Dunlop
None of the other manufacturers apart from Michelin has announced any plan of producing PAX tires at this point. And all of them have their own run-flat tires using a different technology.
> Cars already sporting the PAX system as either > standard or optional are: > Audi A6, Audi A8, Renault Scenic, Rolls-Royce Phantom
Only the Rolls Royce has them as standard. Renault Scenic I believe has stopped offering PAX, and the take up rate for the A6's A8's PAX option has been embrassingly low.
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Comments
Did you take a look at the second row? Was there a table between the second row seats...or perhaps seating for 3?
businessweek article
It definitely seems like a gamble. Great technology but expensive and restrictive. Both the wheels and chassis have to be specially designed to accept the tires. You'll also have to go to an authorized PAX service center for repairs or replacements.
Here's the quote: "And because a PAX-modified car can't accept traditional tires or SSTs, a customer with a flat must find an authorized PAX outlet to repair or replace the tire. "
It does seem odd though that they would be trying to introduce such bleeding edge tire technology to a group of extremely conservative automobile purchasers. And though they state that Michelin has licensed the design to other makes, the other makes will have to pay a fee to Michelin for any tire they sell. If I were Goodyear, I would think it would be in my best interest to see Michelin fail. Why would I make a tire to THEIR design which I would have to pay an additional fee to them for? Wouldn't this guarantee that PAX tires will always be more expensive than conventional tires?
As far as the fuel savings, I thought this was in comparison to other run-flats. Not compared to conventional tires. I'll have to reread the article.
Michelin has a history of trying this type of stuff. I noticed the article only concentrated on the SUCCESSFUL inovations (steel belted radial) introduced by Michelin. It completely ignored the disaster they had in the '80s with the TRX concept, which, like the PAX system, required special rims.
>than conventional tires. Does anyone know what kind of gas savings this would translate into.
On the other hand, the PAX wheel/tire combo may be heavier than standard tire with the added weight of the support ring. So this may cancel out any gas saving by the rolling resistance reduction.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And consider that the Ody will be the ONLY vehicle sold in America with this system. Not sure that I'd want Cletus down at NTB trying to dig out the PAX shop manual for the proper use of the PAX tire mounting equipment.
if you read the PAX website, they claim the 4 pax tires are lighter than the 5 regular tires. What they are not saying is that each tire/wheel is going to weigh more than the regular tire/wheel.
This increases the unsprung weight (tires/wheels) and hence the requires a suspension system geared for this.
The whole idea of alloy wheels was to reduce the unsprung weight. Add PAX tires to it and now you got the same problem.
The 2004 Honday Odyssey looks might attractive at this point.
Casper7777, the stereo was definitly located
were we've seen the NAV system in other spy-photos. Where you put the single cd was at the very to of that center area followed by the stereo screen. The stereo control nobs were below that.
There are radio controls and cruise control controls nicely intergrated into the steering wheel. The dashboard is divided into three parts. The upper part is dark colored plastic. The center part is silver (kind of similar to the dash design of the japanese Odyssey, but not as dramatic) I don't know if it is plastic, but it seems the look they are going for was a metal or aluminum look. The lower part of the dash was a light gray.
I bet however, at least I hope Honda is this smart, to have all PAX locations pre-loaded into the GPS/NAV.
Some day we'll be driving cars without spare. (I bet people used to carry spare sparkplugs in 30s)
That's why you need a large memory card, especially if you have a 5MP camera!
In the case of run-flats, I guess plugging would be a more popular choice since they would require special equipments to be un-mounted from wheels. If plugging is acceptable to you, then run-flats really only bring cost penalty to you every 40K miles or so when replacing them. On the up side, you get to repair your tire at a safe place in stead of at road side, in the rain or darkness.
Any comments are welcome.
Plugging would be good IF it is allowed on a run flat. I have heard, but not confirmed, that you cannot repair a run flat tire. I don't know why you couldn't...but that's what I have heard.
Cooldad24,
Plugging is a way to seal a hole in the tire. You use a tool that looks like a large needle (maybe a bit smaller than a #2 Philips). In the "eye" you insert a sticky rubber "rope" that is about 6" long until the ends are even. Then, you shove the tool into the hole in the tire, twist a few times, then pull it out, but not completely. You now have four pieces of rubber where the hole was. Now, you cut off the end and the tire is sealed. Never done it myself, but I have seen it done.
The other way to fix a hole is to use a patch (preferred method). However, this requires the tire to be removed and the patch is applied on the inside of the tire much like you patch a bicycle tube.
From what I read about run-flats (haven't read PAX yet), run-flats with thick/strong side walls are most likely "plug-gable" if the puncture point is on the flat surface/contact patch. If the puncture is on the side wall, I don't think it is even "repair-able" even with patching. It's something to research the web about tonight. I have no definite answer whether run-flats can be plugged. We will see.
#1 How strong do you have to be to unmount and fix those tires? I don't want to be forced to ruin a $200 tire by driving 125 miles to the nearest help. (I do a 120 mile rural drive once a week--part of that time I'm even out of cell phone range.)
#2 What about other safety aspects of these tires? Is there any other way they contribute to overall driving safety? I don't mean the run flat part of them, but the performance/safety performance of them. If they're super safe in an additional way, then maybe they're worth the expense and hassle. But, I doubt it!
#3 Is there a good wear warranty? Sienna owners complain that their run-flats are wearing out fast--all four tires needing replacement at 20K in one case, I think. Since Siennas have electronic pressure sensors to warn of improper inflation, what possible reason could exist for Sienna run-flats to wear out so quickly? It's a very expensive tire to replace and getting four new ones every year would be an unacceptable expense.
I'd appreciate any answers/insight on this tire issue. Just when I was getting close to a decision and had most of my questions answered, this new decision factor had to come up!
Good thing you can trust your local Honda dealer to give you a great deal on some PAX tires right along with the all the other great service pack deals they offer.
Really a major dumb move by Honda if they make PAX standard equipment.
Here is a great picture from audi:
http://www.audi.com/jsp/crossfeatures/lexicon/lexiconDetails.jsp?- - lexiconId=499584&lexiconChar=W&domainId=1&languageId=- - 4
From the picture, you can see that the tire surface is no different from that of a regular tire. Therefore, definitely "plug-repairable", IMHO.
Secondly, the PAX is an auxiliary support system unlike prior self-supporting run-flats, which are heavy and cause harsh ride, there seem to be no extra cost in manufacturing the tires. Of course, low volume would drive the price up a bit, but not like those self-supporting run-flat costing $250 a piece or more.
How difficult is plugging? IMHO, if you have the strength to dismount a wheel, you are able to plug a tire. The procedure is very simple. Note that certain types of damage cannot be repaired not to mention plugged.
"Plugs" are not an acceptable repair according to the Rubber Manufacturers Association, the trade group that acts as the common voice for the tire industry.
Plugs have a tendency to leak too often. Plus without removing the tire from the rim, there may be damage inside. I would think this would be particularly true for any sort of run flat tire.
Plugs should be considered a temporary repair - meaning hours and days, not weeks and months.
Hope this helps.
But among that same group of family members we have all been stranded several times in the last 10 years by a host of other issues- dead batteries, broken belts/hoses, mysterious "electrical" issues.
As far as family safety is concerned, I feel the run flats are a plus.
But I do understand the concern of getting trapped into a proprietary system with expensive maintenance. Let's hope that the system catches on. If Honda adopts it for several of its cars, that volume alone will be enough to bring service centers on line and probably convince other manufacturers to join Michelin, as well.
Personally, I would prefer PAX system for my wife, who drives minivan with my kids on board. For myself, I could still be happy with traditional tires plus a few kits w/o spare. In worse case, I call my roadside assistant for towing. For duration of owning my BMW for 6+ year, I only got one flat tire at home due to very slow leaking, thanks to radial technology.
Finally, let us not forget there are very bad things that could happen to tires such that the drivers lose control of their vehicles on highways. People died or injured because of those accidents. Run-flat technologies, no matter which kind, would certainly improve controllability of vehicles when those happen.
Supposedly, run-flat tires are able to remain on the wheels, either self-supporting through thick side walls, or auxiliary supporting through internal pad ring like in PAX system. Either case, you still have functional tires on your wheels, therefore, controllability is still available to you. You may experience an initial shaking/side-pulling when blown-out occurs, but not as dramatic as with regular tires.
I experienced a rear tire blown-out when I was 19 driving a fully loaded pickup truck (at slow speed). The vehicle pulled to one side immediately. The keys are (1) hold on to your steering wheel (2) never stomp on the brake, instead, let the vehicle come to a stop slowly.
Yes, I believe self/auxiliary supporting run-flat would help in blown-out situations. That is why I would like my wife to drive vehicles with them on. I don't think she has the skill and calm to handle situations like those.
Thanks
Tires can still fail. In the case of the Ford Explorers, it was a combination of hot roads (I believe all the tire failure accidents happened in the south), overloaded tires (the tire load rating left little breathing room in a packed SUV), low pressure (recommended by Ford to reduce ride harshness), and possible manufacturing defects. When the tires failed the driver often lost control. Given the high cetner of gravity in the Explorer, it was easily "tripped" and that led to the roll overs.
The above points to the fact that tires are most likely to fail when they are overloaded, improperly inflated, and very hot. Don't be tempted to stop at home depot and pick up 10 bags of ready mix when it is 98 degrees outside and you have 23 lbs of air in your tires.
Although minivans are large, their center of gravity is much lower than in an SUV, making them safer and less likely to trip and roll over if you loose control.
Several people, including the folks at NHTSA, have conducted tests and the forces involved aren't all that high. Provided the driver doesn't overreact by slamming on the brakes or jerking the steering wheel, the event should not lead to an out of control vehicle.
Pieces of tires along the highways:
These are usually trailer tires from big trucks. It is just coincidence that they are retreads. What happens is that one of the 4 tires picks up a nail and deflates, forcing the other 3 tires to carry the load - so each tire would be 33% overloaded. Because these tires are on the trailer, the truck driver can not feel anything wrong, so he doesn't slow down. Eventually one of the tires fails, and even though there will be a tremedous vibration, again, the truck driver can't feel it so he continues on. The tire then breaks apart, littering the highway with pieces.
It is common practice to put retreaded tires on trailer positions. Aside from the economy, it is also good for the environment. And there is no reason not to. A properly retreaded truck tire is very reliable.
Hope this helps.
One particular item of interest that I noticed on the pax site is that with PAX run flats, the driver may not even know when they are driving on low or even zero tire pressure. That is why the pressure monitoring system is an integral part of the PAX system. Despite my good intentions I do not manually check tire pressure nearly as often as I should so this feature will be quite welcome for me.
Regarding availability of service- It's just my guess but I think Honda joining the party will help PAX reach critical mass.
Tire manufacturers on board so far are:
- Michelin
- Goodyear
- Pirelli
- Dunlop
If the latter 3 do not actually have product on the market yet, I think the volume of sales made possible by all the Hondas soon to have the system will encourage them to do so.
Cars already sporting the PAX system as either standard or optional are:
- Audi A6
- Audi A8
- Renault Scenic
- Rolls-Royce Phantom
No doubt Honda is coming early to the party but I am okay with that. For me, the benefits are worth the risk of being an early adopter. Time will tell.
So, the real question (which can't be answered until they are out) is if Honda did a good job with improvements to the noise level. COnsidering they have had 5 years to work on it, and it is one of the few common complaints since the '99s came out, I assume it is better.
Actually, It may not be the quietest thing on the road, but it really isn't "noisy" in my opinion. Of course, I drive a Miata on the highway with the top down, so I have a high tolerence for noise!
OT, but interesting: I dind the Miata quieter with the top down than with the top up on the highway. Also much airier.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
> - Michelin, Goodyear, Pirelli, Dunlop
None of the other manufacturers apart from Michelin has announced any plan of producing PAX tires at this point. And all of them have their own run-flat tires using a different technology.
> Cars already sporting the PAX system as either
> standard or optional are:
> Audi A6, Audi A8, Renault Scenic, Rolls-Royce Phantom
Only the Rolls Royce has them as standard. Renault Scenic I believe has stopped offering PAX, and the take up rate for the A6's A8's PAX option has been embrassingly low.