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Comments
Did you take a look at the second row? Was there a table between the second row seats...or perhaps seating for 3?
businessweek article
It definitely seems like a gamble. Great technology but expensive and restrictive. Both the wheels and chassis have to be specially designed to accept the tires. You'll also have to go to an authorized PAX service center for repairs or replacements.
Here's the quote: "And because a PAX-modified car can't accept traditional tires or SSTs, a customer with a flat must find an authorized PAX outlet to repair or replace the tire. "
It does seem odd though that they would be trying to introduce such bleeding edge tire technology to a group of extremely conservative automobile purchasers. And though they state that Michelin has licensed the design to other makes, the other makes will have to pay a fee to Michelin for any tire they sell. If I were Goodyear, I would think it would be in my best interest to see Michelin fail. Why would I make a tire to THEIR design which I would have to pay an additional fee to them for? Wouldn't this guarantee that PAX tires will always be more expensive than conventional tires?
As far as the fuel savings, I thought this was in comparison to other run-flats. Not compared to conventional tires. I'll have to reread the article.
Michelin has a history of trying this type of stuff. I noticed the article only concentrated on the SUCCESSFUL inovations (steel belted radial) introduced by Michelin. It completely ignored the disaster they had in the '80s with the TRX concept, which, like the PAX system, required special rims.
>than conventional tires. Does anyone know what kind of gas savings this would translate into.
On the other hand, the PAX wheel/tire combo may be heavier than standard tire with the added weight of the support ring. So this may cancel out any gas saving by the rolling resistance reduction.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And consider that the Ody will be the ONLY vehicle sold in America with this system. Not sure that I'd want Cletus down at NTB trying to dig out the PAX shop manual for the proper use of the PAX tire mounting equipment.
if you read the PAX website, they claim the 4 pax tires are lighter than the 5 regular tires. What they are not saying is that each tire/wheel is going to weigh more than the regular tire/wheel.
This increases the unsprung weight (tires/wheels) and hence the requires a suspension system geared for this.
The whole idea of alloy wheels was to reduce the unsprung weight. Add PAX tires to it and now you got the same problem.
The 2004 Honday Odyssey looks might attractive at this point.
Casper7777, the stereo was definitly located
were we've seen the NAV system in other spy-photos. Where you put the single cd was at the very to of that center area followed by the stereo screen. The stereo control nobs were below that.
There are radio controls and cruise control controls nicely intergrated into the steering wheel. The dashboard is divided into three parts. The upper part is dark colored plastic. The center part is silver (kind of similar to the dash design of the japanese Odyssey, but not as dramatic) I don't know if it is plastic, but it seems the look they are going for was a metal or aluminum look. The lower part of the dash was a light gray.
I bet however, at least I hope Honda is this smart, to have all PAX locations pre-loaded into the GPS/NAV.
Some day we'll be driving cars without spare. (I bet people used to carry spare sparkplugs in 30s)
That's why you need a large memory card, especially if you have a 5MP camera!
In the case of run-flats, I guess plugging would be a more popular choice since they would require special equipments to be un-mounted from wheels. If plugging is acceptable to you, then run-flats really only bring cost penalty to you every 40K miles or so when replacing them. On the up side, you get to repair your tire at a safe place in stead of at road side, in the rain or darkness.
Any comments are welcome.
Plugging would be good IF it is allowed on a run flat. I have heard, but not confirmed, that you cannot repair a run flat tire. I don't know why you couldn't...but that's what I have heard.
Cooldad24,
Plugging is a way to seal a hole in the tire. You use a tool that looks like a large needle (maybe a bit smaller than a #2 Philips). In the "eye" you insert a sticky rubber "rope" that is about 6" long until the ends are even. Then, you shove the tool into the hole in the tire, twist a few times, then pull it out, but not completely. You now have four pieces of rubber where the hole was. Now, you cut off the end and the tire is sealed. Never done it myself, but I have seen it done.
The other way to fix a hole is to use a patch (preferred method). However, this requires the tire to be removed and the patch is applied on the inside of the tire much like you patch a bicycle tube.
From what I read about run-flats (haven't read PAX yet), run-flats with thick/strong side walls are most likely "plug-gable" if the puncture point is on the flat surface/contact patch. If the puncture is on the side wall, I don't think it is even "repair-able" even with patching. It's something to research the web about tonight. I have no definite answer whether run-flats can be plugged. We will see.
#1 How strong do you have to be to unmount and fix those tires? I don't want to be forced to ruin a $200 tire by driving 125 miles to the nearest help. (I do a 120 mile rural drive once a week--part of that time I'm even out of cell phone range.)
#2 What about other safety aspects of these tires? Is there any other way they contribute to overall driving safety? I don't mean the run flat part of them, but the performance/safety performance of them. If they're super safe in an additional way, then maybe they're worth the expense and hassle. But, I doubt it!
#3 Is there a good wear warranty? Sienna owners complain that their run-flats are wearing out fast--all four tires needing replacement at 20K in one case, I think. Since Siennas have electronic pressure sensors to warn of improper inflation, what possible reason could exist for Sienna run-flats to wear out so quickly? It's a very expensive tire to replace and getting four new ones every year would be an unacceptable expense.
I'd appreciate any answers/insight on this tire issue. Just when I was getting close to a decision and had most of my questions answered, this new decision factor had to come up!
Good thing you can trust your local Honda dealer to give you a great deal on some PAX tires right along with the all the other great service pack deals they offer.
Really a major dumb move by Honda if they make PAX standard equipment.
Here is a great picture from audi:
http://www.audi.com/jsp/crossfeatures/lexicon/lexiconDetails.jsp?- - lexiconId=499584&lexiconChar=W&domainId=1&languageId=- - 4
From the picture, you can see that the tire surface is no different from that of a regular tire. Therefore, definitely "plug-repairable", IMHO.
Secondly, the PAX is an auxiliary support system unlike prior self-supporting run-flats, which are heavy and cause harsh ride, there seem to be no extra cost in manufacturing the tires. Of course, low volume would drive the price up a bit, but not like those self-supporting run-flat costing $250 a piece or more.
How difficult is plugging? IMHO, if you have the strength to dismount a wheel, you are able to plug a tire. The procedure is very simple. Note that certain types of damage cannot be repaired not to mention plugged.
"Plugs" are not an acceptable repair according to the Rubber Manufacturers Association, the trade group that acts as the common voice for the tire industry.
Plugs have a tendency to leak too often. Plus without removing the tire from the rim, there may be damage inside. I would think this would be particularly true for any sort of run flat tire.
Plugs should be considered a temporary repair - meaning hours and days, not weeks and months.
Hope this helps.
But among that same group of family members we have all been stranded several times in the last 10 years by a host of other issues- dead batteries, broken belts/hoses, mysterious "electrical" issues.
As far as family safety is concerned, I feel the run flats are a plus.
But I do understand the concern of getting trapped into a proprietary system with expensive maintenance. Let's hope that the system catches on. If Honda adopts it for several of its cars, that volume alone will be enough to bring service centers on line and probably convince other manufacturers to join Michelin, as well.
Personally, I would prefer PAX system for my wife, who drives minivan with my kids on board. For myself, I could still be happy with traditional tires plus a few kits w/o spare. In worse case, I call my roadside assistant for towing. For duration of owning my BMW for 6+ year, I only got one flat tire at home due to very slow leaking, thanks to radial technology.
Finally, let us not forget there are very bad things that could happen to tires such that the drivers lose control of their vehicles on highways. People died or injured because of those accidents. Run-flat technologies, no matter which kind, would certainly improve controllability of vehicles when those happen.
Supposedly, run-flat tires are able to remain on the wheels, either self-supporting through thick side walls, or auxiliary supporting through internal pad ring like in PAX system. Either case, you still have functional tires on your wheels, therefore, controllability is still available to you. You may experience an initial shaking/side-pulling when blown-out occurs, but not as dramatic as with regular tires.
I experienced a rear tire blown-out when I was 19 driving a fully loaded pickup truck (at slow speed). The vehicle pulled to one side immediately. The keys are (1) hold on to your steering wheel (2) never stomp on the brake, instead, let the vehicle come to a stop slowly.
Yes, I believe self/auxiliary supporting run-flat would help in blown-out situations. That is why I would like my wife to drive vehicles with them on. I don't think she has the skill and calm to handle situations like those.
Thanks
Tires can still fail. In the case of the Ford Explorers, it was a combination of hot roads (I believe all the tire failure accidents happened in the south), overloaded tires (the tire load rating left little breathing room in a packed SUV), low pressure (recommended by Ford to reduce ride harshness), and possible manufacturing defects. When the tires failed the driver often lost control. Given the high cetner of gravity in the Explorer, it was easily "tripped" and that led to the roll overs.
The above points to the fact that tires are most likely to fail when they are overloaded, improperly inflated, and very hot. Don't be tempted to stop at home depot and pick up 10 bags of ready mix when it is 98 degrees outside and you have 23 lbs of air in your tires.
Although minivans are large, their center of gravity is much lower than in an SUV, making them safer and less likely to trip and roll over if you loose control.
Several people, including the folks at NHTSA, have conducted tests and the forces involved aren't all that high. Provided the driver doesn't overreact by slamming on the brakes or jerking the steering wheel, the event should not lead to an out of control vehicle.
Pieces of tires along the highways:
These are usually trailer tires from big trucks. It is just coincidence that they are retreads. What happens is that one of the 4 tires picks up a nail and deflates, forcing the other 3 tires to carry the load - so each tire would be 33% overloaded. Because these tires are on the trailer, the truck driver can not feel anything wrong, so he doesn't slow down. Eventually one of the tires fails, and even though there will be a tremedous vibration, again, the truck driver can't feel it so he continues on. The tire then breaks apart, littering the highway with pieces.
It is common practice to put retreaded tires on trailer positions. Aside from the economy, it is also good for the environment. And there is no reason not to. A properly retreaded truck tire is very reliable.
Hope this helps.
One particular item of interest that I noticed on the pax site is that with PAX run flats, the driver may not even know when they are driving on low or even zero tire pressure. That is why the pressure monitoring system is an integral part of the PAX system. Despite my good intentions I do not manually check tire pressure nearly as often as I should so this feature will be quite welcome for me.
Regarding availability of service- It's just my guess but I think Honda joining the party will help PAX reach critical mass.
Tire manufacturers on board so far are:
- Michelin
- Goodyear
- Pirelli
- Dunlop
If the latter 3 do not actually have product on the market yet, I think the volume of sales made possible by all the Hondas soon to have the system will encourage them to do so.
Cars already sporting the PAX system as either standard or optional are:
- Audi A6
- Audi A8
- Renault Scenic
- Rolls-Royce Phantom
No doubt Honda is coming early to the party but I am okay with that. For me, the benefits are worth the risk of being an early adopter. Time will tell.
So, the real question (which can't be answered until they are out) is if Honda did a good job with improvements to the noise level. COnsidering they have had 5 years to work on it, and it is one of the few common complaints since the '99s came out, I assume it is better.
Actually, It may not be the quietest thing on the road, but it really isn't "noisy" in my opinion. Of course, I drive a Miata on the highway with the top down, so I have a high tolerence for noise!
OT, but interesting: I dind the Miata quieter with the top down than with the top up on the highway. Also much airier.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
> - Michelin, Goodyear, Pirelli, Dunlop
None of the other manufacturers apart from Michelin has announced any plan of producing PAX tires at this point. And all of them have their own run-flat tires using a different technology.
> Cars already sporting the PAX system as either
> standard or optional are:
> Audi A6, Audi A8, Renault Scenic, Rolls-Royce Phantom
Only the Rolls Royce has them as standard. Renault Scenic I believe has stopped offering PAX, and the take up rate for the A6's A8's PAX option has been embrassingly low.