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On August 11, 2003, Toyota filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regarding a fuel tank on approximately 35,000 Sienna vehicles, with the intent to initiate a Special Service Campaign.
On certain early to mid-2004 Model Year Sienna vehicle fuel tanks, a part of the fuel tank may become damaged when crashed under the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) 40 mph frontal offset crash test conditions, due to the severe impact forces generated. In the worst case, if this section becomes damaged and fuel leakage occurs, a fire may result in the presence of an ignition source.
The IIHS periodically conducts crash tests where only the driver side of the vehicle strikes a deformable barrier while moving at 40 mph. This crash test places a tremendous demand on the vehicle structure as a relatively small portion of the vehicle’s front-end must absorb and manage the crash energy. According to the IIHS’s preliminary assessment, the Sienna rated “good” in test results, which measure occupant compartment intrusion and injury to the driver’s seat dummy during this severe crash test.
The Sienna meets all federal motor vehicle safety standards and, in subsequent testing by TMC, they were unable to duplicate the above condition.
This new SSC involves the replacement of the fuel tank. A dealer package including technical instructions, parts ordering requirements, special customer satisfaction features, and reimbursement procedures will be mailed to dealers for arrival on August 18, 2003. Owner notifications will commence shortly thereafter in late August, 2003.
Early to Mid 2004 Sienna Fuel Tank Replacement
Q1: What is the condition?
A1: On certain early to mid-2004 Model Year Sienna vehicle fuel tanks, a part of the fuel tank may become damaged when crashed under the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) 40 mph frontal offset crash test conditions, due to the severe impact forces generated. In the worst case, if this section becomes damaged and fuel leakage occurs, a fire may result in the presence of an ignition source.
Q2: What is the IIHS 40 mph frontal offset crash test?
A2: The IIHS periodically conducts crash tests where only the driver side of the vehicle strikes a deformable barrier while moving at 40 mph. This crash test places a tremendous demand on the vehicle structure as a relatively small portion of the vehicle’s front-end must absorb and manage the crash energy. According to the IIHS’s preliminary assessment, the Sienna rated “good” in test results, which measure occupant compartment intrusion and injury to the driver’s seat dummy during this severe crash test.
Q3: Where was the origin of the fuel leakage?
A3: During the IIHS 40 mph frontal offset crash test, one of three “standoffs” internal to the tank was damaged and fuel leakage occurred from that area. The “standoffs” help the fuel tank maintain its stiffness.
Q4: What is the cause of this condition?
A4: During the production process of the fuel tank, a “wrinkle” may have developed at the “standoffs” internal to the tank. The “wrinkled” portion combined with other factors may create an area that can become damaged when crashed under the IIHS 40 mph frontal offset crash test conditions, due to the severe impact forces generated.
Q5: Which and how many vehicles are involved in this condition?
A5: This condition only affects certain early to mid-2004 model year Sienna vehicles produced from January, 2003 to July, 2003. Nationwide, there are approximately 35,000 Sienna 2WD and 4WD vehicles involved.
Q6: Are there any other Toyota or Lexus vehicles involved?
A6: No, this condition only affects certain early to mid-2004 Model Year Sienna vehicles.
Q7: How many incidents of this condition have been reported?
A7: Besides the one tank damaged during the IIHS 40 mph frontal offset crash test, there have been no reported incidents related to this condition.
Q8: Have there been any accidents reported?
A8: There have been no reported cases of accidents related to this condition.
Q9: Will Toyota improve the design of vehicles currently being produced?
A9: Yes, in order to prevent damage to the fuel tank from occurring under the same conditions, production improvements were incorporated starting with the July, 2003 production vehicles.
Q10: Will Toyota conduct a Special Service Campaign for this condition?
A10: During Toyota’s investigation, numerous sled tests and destructive tests to simulate the same severe crash conditions were conducted and no fuel leakage was observed. In addition, Toyota believes that Sienna vehicles have an excellent safety performance and they meet or exceed all requirements of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. However, Toyota will launch a Special Service Campaign and Toyota dealers will replace the fuel tank with an improved one at NO COST to the vehicle owner. Toyota will begin notifying owners of the involved vehicles in late August, 2003 by first class mail.
Q11: How long will the repair take?
A11: The repair will take up to approximately two hours. However, depending upon the dealer’s work schedule, it may be necessary to make the vehicle available for a longer period of time.
Q12: Why didn’t this condition appear during development testing?
A12: During Toyota’s investigation, numerous sled tests and destructive tests to simulate the same severe crash conditions were conducted and no fuel leakage was observed. In addition, Toyota believes that Sienna vehicles have an excellent safety performance and they meet or exceed all requirements of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.
Q13: Are the IIHS and NHTSA crash-test methods different?
A13: Yes, and we do test to IIHS test procedures as well as NHTSA’s.
Q14: How do you know the problem is resolved?
A14: Toyota has repeated the IIHS 40 mph offset crash test as well as other tests numerous times using the updated tank and fuel does not leak.
Given the importance of safety with the target market (those of us with children) I am sure Toyota did a great deal of testing. the above note from Toyota on this subjectclearly indicates this, The thing to keep in mind is that the one van that was tested by IIHS is the only one to have had this failure in multiple tests since both by Toyota and IIHS.
A 40mph offset crash (the IIHS test) is a very rigorous test at a higher speed than the government mandates, airbag, seatbelts and vehicle structure have to provide protection in a 35 mph crash into a full barrier that involves the entire front of the car. 5mph may not seem like much but it is a doubling of the force exerted on the vehicle. In addition more head on accidents are offset involving the driver side only than hitting a barrier or another car directly head on.
Yes it is a good thing the government and the IIHS do testing, I appreciate as many eyes looking at this issue as possible. we all want the safest cars we can afford.
Bummer to have a roll-out glitch, but they happen. Does anyone know whether this will delay the release of crash test results for the Sienna?
Steve, Host
Unfortunate glitch. Toyota is meeting this one head on.
I got my first blown run flat tire with less than 3000 miles on the clock, and 1000 miles from home. What a nightmare it caused. I knew it was going to be expensive, but I did not know you could not get the tire anywhere locally including Toyota dealers. I had to spend $150 just to get a tire of the same size for the time being. But I have to wait a few weeks and additional $250 to get the exact replacement tire.
The only mistake I did was that I drove over a curb when making a turn. As many of you probably experienced from time to time, the curb protrudes more than your estimate. But rarely does a tire blow up because of that. It appeared that the thick side wall of the run flat tire was too rigid to take sudden buildup of pressure. The tire blew up with a one-inch hole on the side wall.
This small mistake resulted in $400 dent in my pocket book. I believe that the cost, fragileness, and availability of run-flat tires are very serious drawbacks for this new breed. I will definitely replace them with traditional tires once they are worned out. No more run-flat craps for me!
FWIW, I once blew a tire on a Sentra by hitting a curb while driving into a parking lot--it was black-colored (from driveway sealant overspray) and was sitting right in the middle of the driveway. Ruined the steel wheel, too. So conventional tires may not save you from that sitation.
I did a mass e-mailing of all N.Cal dealership. All came back with $1k to $1800 off MSRP.
like to hear what other has paid.
We have more than 10 toyota dealer within 100 mile radius. may be that's reason why i got the price.
For those in SF. The price was 1st offered by Dublin Toyota, matched by Toyota of Palo Alto and fremont toyota (this is where put the deposit.)
The highest that came back was toyota 101 came back with $1100 off MSRP.
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One thing you also need to consider is availability. The production of these vans has stopped while they take care of the fuel tank recall. The tanks are being diverted from the assembly line to the dealerships to fix the 35000 that were covered. That means product shortages for the next few months. Product shortages means higher prices. If you found one at a price you are happy with, don't wait too long to take it.
Although the tire size is not a common one, you still can find it locally. The cost is significatly lower. The issues is where do you carry the spare during a long trip.
While there is no perfect solution, I think carrying it on the roof top is much more acceptable than in the trunk. You can buy one of those soft nylon roof top carrier from Walmart for $40 or so. It won't look awful to carry spare in it.
I will carry a spare on a long trip even before I replace all run flat tires because if you do get a flat tire, chances are you won't be able to find a replacement.
I am in Madison, Wisconsin and looking for an '04 Sienna. Wondering if anyone found a dealership in Wisconsin/Chicago able to sell below MSRP?
We did find that one dealer was more than willing to say, oh, we could have beaten that price, after my wife told him we went with another dealer. Again, complete shock. Buying a car must be the most frustrating, mind numbing experience I can think of.
At least we are able to look forward to an additional 2-4 week wait (due to the recall) over and above the 4-8 weeks we were originally told.
Sorry for the sarcasm, it has been building up for weeks now.
Get on the phone, make lots of calls, you'll find something.
Amazing how a minivan can ever be that "hot"!
Like you said, the demand severely surpasses the supply right now.
Thanks...
I want to get rid of the '96 Plymouth G.Voyager in my driveway.
From a max production of around 3400/wk in June, Toyota is now producing just under 3000. There was one week where no Sienna's were produced, but the production is going again and should be growing even greater soon.
But the discount was $500 exactly. I couldn't find one that would give more than that. I think either Andrew or Safro was the one who said they could have beaten that price (after we told them we had ordered it from Heiser).
Sorry I can't be of more assistance.
Not sure where that Customer Service person got their info.
Any opinions on how important these features are in snowy/icy conditions?
Traction Control
Traction control systems improve vehicle stability by controlling the amount the drive wheels can slip when you apply extra power. The system automatically adjusts the engine power output and, in some systems, applies braking force to selected wheels during acceleration. Traction control is mainly found on vehicles with four-wheel, anti-lock brake systems.
Electronic Stability Control
Electronic Stability Control (which is offered under various trade names) is designed to assist drivers in maintaining control of their vehicles during extreme steering maneuvers. Electronic Stability Control senses when a vehicle is starting to spin out (oversteer) or plow out (understeer), and it turns the vehicle to the appropriate heading by automatically applying the brake at a single wheel. It is intended to reduce the occurrence of crashes in which vehicles run off the road or otherwise go out of control. However, it cannot keep a vehicle on the road if its speed is simply too great for the conditions and the available traction.
In order to create the "correct" driving experience for the 911/996 C4 owners Porsche delays the onset of their versions and then once active they are very agressive.
I would think that in a minivan these functions should be quite quick and agressive but don't know any easy way to test.
Also be aware that there appears to be a timeout of about a minute or so to protect the ABS pump/motor, the sole source of replenishing the hydraulic pressure used to implement VSC/Trac.
Tour of Toyota (San Antonio Express-News)
Steve, Host
The Sienna has a better tow capability than other minivans. While it can only tow 3500 lb, like them, at the same time it can hold 800 lb people and gear in the van. Anything beyond that needs to be subtracted from the 3500.
In comparison, the Ody can only hold 300 lb in the van while towing 3500 lb.
Towing 2850 will be close to the limits. You need to limit your gear so that you don't get over 650 lb. I would think that would be ok, as long as you don't drive it with a full tank of water in the camper.
Note Toyota requires anti-sway bars, and for such large loads recommends a weight distribution hitch, which gives you slightly more capacity. Wiring is not a problem--I saw the technician wire ours and it took about 5 minutes.
Regarding the towability, we have more than enough acceleration with the camper loaded and going uphills. It works well for us.
Note of caution--protect that bumper! We've scratched it with the camper hitch and the sway bar rod.
Of course if we could try the seats in both vehicles, that decision becomes easy. But that is not feasible for us now due to lack of 8-seater close by.
Please, can anybody help with the following:
1) Specs on the seats themselves 7-Pass vs 8-Pass, e.g. width at hip, at shoulder, and at knees. Scaling from the elongated pictures on Toyota's website, I estimate loss of 3inch width at the hip per seat.
2) Any feedback from someone who tried the seats in both as to how they compare and what your thoughts are.
We have a van on order now and decided to go with the 7 pass. We chose it over the 8 pass. after much debate b/c we figured the amount of time we would actually have 8 people in the van (friends and realatives going to the zoo, etc.) would be slim. What really made us go with the 7 passenger was the fact that the 8 pass. seats are closer to the side of the van. Now, it may never make a difference, but in the off change that we were in a side impact accident, maybe a few inches would make a difference (and we are getting side curtain airbags).
I know there will be plenty of times that I will wish we had ordered the 8 pass., but we are sticking to the 7 pass. Hope this helped!
Also, do you think the factory DVD system is worth the price? Seems like a much better deal to spend $400 on the Audiovox portable system that straps to the back of the front seats, but I worry a little about it's crash safety.
Best bet for buyers imo is to hope Toyota gets production cranked back up and that dealers get plenty of inventory.
It'll get interesting in '05 with second year Sienna improvements, a refreshed Odyssey and maybe there's a VW giant killer lurking with a potential Microbus?
Steve, Host
I find the leather steering wheel to be very slippery, ( I don't know if this is normal as I have not had leather in a vehicle before.) I have not used any leather treatments or anything else on it. All the descriptions I have read on leather treatments leads me to believe they would only make the problem worse.
Can anyone suggest something I can use to reduce the slipperyness of the steering wheel? (Can anyone tell me if "slipperyness" is a real word.)
By the way, none of the rest of the van's leather feels slippery.
I've driven a 04 Sienna for about 15 minutes. Would like to drive one again (and at least see an XLE) before I buy, but it's almost impossible to find an unsold unit on a dealer's lot. I've never purchased a vehicle without an extended test drive before ordering. Hate to drop $35K without more time behind the wheel!