Toyota Sienna 2004+

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    If your do have a problem getting up that drive then just try it in reverse to simulate a RWD.

    Seriously though, carrying a sofa upstairs you will notice the guy on the bottom is really carrying most of the weight. And weight = traction.
  • lovesienna2lovesienna2 Member Posts: 1
    This AWD minivan is simply the best vehicle I have ever driven. I purchased it two months ago and was lucky to simply find a dealer with the all wheel drive feature on the Sienna. My wife is the primary driver, and she liked the Honda Pilot after driving all the SUV’s in the midsize class at least once. Although we drove other minivans, we were intent on buying a SUV. The Sienna turned out to be so much better that everything else it just became a buy on the spot thing, and we drove it off the lot, the same day.
    We have now had two major snowstorms to drive in, and when I say this car handles great in the bad weather, I mean better then I ever dreamed possible. I have driven numerous 4X4’s in these types of conditions and nothing compares to this! The traction control system and ABS make this car idiot proof. This may be one of the best vehicles ever in the snow and ice.
    Between the fuel economy on regular fuel, the enormous amount of space, the quit ride, and comfort this is perhaps one of the best cars ever made.
    If you can’t bring yourself to buying a minivan, and the midsize SUV’s with the 3rd row don’t offer enough space or reliability, than buy the AWD Sienna. It’s like a SUV only better.
    I could not be happier with this purchase. I love this car!
  • marlenelinmarlenelin Member Posts: 87
    My fuel gauge is pointing close to empty, yet my fuel light has not come on. I checked the upper display where the temp, compass, etc. are and changed modes to see that I have 16 miles left on this tank of gas. Shouldn't my fuel light have come on by now? Marlene
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Is a computed value whereas typically the low indicator is the result of an actual float device in the tank.
  • lovemyaccordslovemyaccords Member Posts: 21
    I have had a pretty good amount of time to discover all the good and tiny less-good issues with the 2004 Sienna. Here are some of the things I have found:

    1. Forget using "regular" gas, especially in the winter. The car is very sluggish when cold and does some hesitating upon acceleration. I knew that a less than peppy engine was the one downside to the Sienna as opposed to the Odyssey, but it really was beginning to bug me when every little friggin' rattletrap (and Odyssey, SUV and EVERYONE) was zipping along ahead of me after the signal turned green. Me, I was 0 to 60 in about 10 minutes. I would slowly get up to speed while everyone else seemed to get up to speed so quickly after being stopped. I kept reminding myself of all the wonderful things this car has that the others don't - but it was still bugging me. Once the car warmed up it was better. So, as a last resort, I decided to try a higher octane gas. This made a BIG difference. Even when cold, it is not sluggish and doesn't do the small hesitation it did before. But, I still feel the engine is underpowered for this car. I think they should forget the 1 mpg more that this car is rated at over the Odyssey - I'd rather get a little less gas mileage than suffer with an underpowered engine. They should certainly make a car that runs well on regular gas. This would be my biggest complaint so far on the car.

    2. I wish they had another horizontal bar across the front of the roof rack (near where the roof meets the upper windshield). We have had a lot of snow, and it's already a problem the way the snow gets trapped up there with the roof being so long, but if it's gonna stay up there, make it ALL stay up there. After a few miles of driving, you come to a stop and a huge unexpected avalanche comes crashing down in front of your eyes - and when it happened to me last, I had my wipers on, so you can imagine what that did to them - the snow was so heavy, they couldn't move - and I couldn't see anything. Had to pull over and get out and remove it with my hands (with no gloves!). Had there been an extra bar there, it would have held the majority of it back till it melted. I'd love some kind of lip up there t keep water and snow from dripping down.

    3. I wish it had a seperate temp control knob(cold-med-hot dial) for the rear that could be conrolled from the FRONT. I have dogs in the back, and sometimes I need the temp different back there or they are hot and I need to turn it down, but I am cold up front. Can't control the back from the second row while driving, so am stuck with a compromise.

    4. When you stop the car, put it in park and turn off the engine - then let your foot off the brake, the car rolls (lurches) forward quite a bit more than it should - I feel like I have to apply the brake again!

    5. The driver's side door swings open a little too easily, so you have to grab for the door quickly before it flies open too far and hits another car.

    6. I have already gotten a couple of chips in the paint - one on the hood (no stone ever hit it that I saw) and one on the body side molding. I think the paint could be better - it shouldn't chip so easily.

    7. There is a sour smell outside the car when it is running - anyone know what this might be? It's not from the back exhaust pipe, but from under the sides of the car.

    8. The thing I still appreciate the most, one of the reasons we bought it - is that tight turning circle. I cannot imagine how I could get in and out of the spaces I have been able to if I had an Odyssey - with something this long, that tight turning radius is a necessity and I am always amazed at what I can do in the Sienna.

    9. It's still the BEST looking minivan out there. The 2004 shed the dowdy look, and I don't feel as "uncool" in it as I thought I would ;-) Have you seen that hideous new Nissan Quest??? What an embarassment!

    Everything else I LOVE and is just perfect. Each time I drive and discover new things I like, I am reminded of how well-thought-out this car was - they thought of ALMOST everything.

    Has anyone else NOT experienced some of problems I mentioned above? Anyone have anything to add?

    Wendy
  • corpuscorpus Member Posts: 37
    Just got my van home. Why would they only supply power to the 12V outlets when the key is on? How are you supposed to charge your phone?

    Is there any way to bypass this, so you get power without the key? Where's the fuse?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    May somehow apply to Sienna...

    To switch rear system to heating, low outlets, or cooling, overhead outlets, you move the front passenger/driver controls all the way to max heat or all the way to max cold.

    Once the rear system has "switched" to heating or cooling you can freely modulate the front temperature as long as you don't move it to the "opposite" end travel.
  • ando0307ando0307 Member Posts: 13
    With my first tank of gas, my low fuel warning light turned on when the computer displayed less than 10 miles.
    I don't plan to do this again. It's discomforting to think how inaccurate the computation may be with 9 miles or less of gas left in the tank.
  • jake696jake696 Member Posts: 111
    I use regular gas with no problem in my 2004 XLE limited AWD and think the vehicle has plenty of guts. Of course I'm not trying to race anyone off the line when the light turns green in my minivan...It accelerates quick and smooth onto the interstate.

    Maybe the XLE model is different but I have separate backseat heat/AC controls that I can choose to synch them from the front seat OR the second row passengers can fully control. Works great!

    Park/stop is the same as any other auto tranny vehicle I've ever driven. It'll lurch a tad on a hill, that is normal. If the hill is steep enough, you should be using the parking brake.

    As for the doors swinging open? Now I know how my vehicle doors get so dinged up in parking lots! Maybe we have to consider NOT talking on the cell phone while operating a motor vehicle? Both hands and full concentration is needed.

    The AWD works great in the snow and the seat heaters really keep your buns warm in the winter.
  • steph280steph280 Member Posts: 20
    "...The salesman told me that they have had a few complaints that the ceiling mounted screen interferes with rear view mirror visibility..."

    Total nonsense. With the screen fully extended, you can barely see it through the mirror. The screen sits high enough so it does not interfere with rearview at all.

    However, if the salesman is talking about aftermarket screens which may be larger in size, then it might block the mirror.

    The factory unit is very hight quality. The wireless headphone is crystal clear with excellent dynamic range. The remote control works well and does not feel cheap like some of the home players nowaday. Only complain is the low volume when piped through the van's surround sound speaker system.
  • steph280steph280 Member Posts: 20
    Yeah the XLE does have different AC controls than the LE/CE. XLE has separate driver/passenger/rear 3 zone digital automatic temp control, where as the lower end models has the manual switches.
  • marlenelinmarlenelin Member Posts: 87
    Well, I've spent a good part of the day trying to get a part that is missing from my removable center console that came with my Ltd. Pkg 5. The bottom plate and hooks are missing, and all I am left with is the cup holder. I notified my dealer 4 weeks ago, and assumed it would be sent to me. Then I called again last week when I didn't receive it, and it sounded like it was never ordered. The dealer, Motorworld, mentioned that I could just go into a local toyota dealership where I live and have them order the part (the dealer where I bought the car is 3 hours away). So today, as I brought the Sienna in for its 1,000 mile oil change, I went to the parts dept. to try to get them to order the missing parts. They claim they couldn't find the part on their computer and that it must be a part made by another company that my dealer just threw in. I disagreed with them and told them the package that the console came with was (#5 Ltd - dvd, earphones, center console and rear spoiler). They said they would check with Toyota and call me back this morning. They never called. I waited till this afternoon and called Toyota myself. After being on hold for almost an hour and being transferred from one dept. to another, I finally got a service consultant who checked the vin # of my van. She said my van didn't come with a package with a rear spoiler, dvd, center console, etc., that the dealer must have installed it himself, because it could not have been done at the factory or at the port. I insisted that the dealer did not install it himself, that the package is listed on my invoice, and we picked up the van less than 12 hours after it rolled into the dealership so there couldn't have even been time for the dealer to install those things. The service rep from Toyota kept insisting that they cannot send me the part because my van doesn't have that package. I offered to send her the invoice but she said that wouldn't help her, that they have all the info on their computer. Well, obviously their damn computer is wrong. Oh, she also said that because I got the LTD which comes with a console, I don't get the second console that comes with the Ltd #5 pkg. Now, does that make sense? And besides, if I wasn't getting that console, why do I have part of it and the instruction sheet for putting it together. I called my dealer again this afternoon and voiced my frustration. He said he thought that was all taken care of and that I had received the missing parts of the console. I said NO, I have NOT. I had to fax him a copy of my invoice, and the instruction page for putting together the center console for the second row of seats. I have spent hours dealing with this and getting no where. I certainly will think twice about ever buying another Toyota. This is our fourth. The customer service at Toyota is the pits. A $35,000 van and they are being so damn cheap about sending a $25 part that I'm missing. I checked other websites to see if I can just order the part, but unfortunately I can't. It is only available with the package. We did use the helpful checklist when we picked up the car, and went over as much as we could with the dealer before we left with the car, but unfortunately, we didn't open the shrinkwrapped package that was the unassembled second console, until we got home.

    Oh, by the way, per my previous post last night about the fuel light not coming on -- it finally came on this morning when my indicator listed ten miles left to the tank. When I filled up, it took 20.4 gallons, so I must have been very very low when that light finally came on.
  • impact01impact01 Member Posts: 95
    You wrote:
    "I had to fax him a copy of my invoice, and the instruction page for putting together the center console for the second row of seats."

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the package as I understand comes only with the console that goes between the front seats. Of course you can move that to the second row (hence the instruction), but you don't get a second console for the second row. The choice is either between one center console or a tray.
  • marlenelinmarlenelin Member Posts: 87
    Nope, the LTD comes with a center console instead of the flip down tray. The #5 package for the LTD includes a DVD, additional center console for the second row- --essentially just a tray with cupholders--, and rear spoiler.
  • piombopiombo Member Posts: 3
    I just picked up my LE up at the dealer. They had recalled the gas tank. I asked the dealer if he could show me how to reset the Maintenance Reqd light. I have done two oil changes already and couldn't find out to do it anywhere including the owner's manual. Turn ignition on. Change the odometer/trip display from trip to odometer if necessary. Hold down the reset button but do not release. Turn off ignition and then back on. While holding down reset button still, you'll see the mileage temporarily blink "-- -- --". You can now release the reset button. I'm guessing that it will come on again after 7,500 miles though I'll be needing an oil change sooner based on the calendar since my wife doesn't drive it very much.
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    Sorry to here about your acceleration problems. I have never had any such problem. I live in Boston with a lot of aggressive rude drivers and have had no problems getting out into traffic fast when I have to. I have in fact squealed the tire a number of times. I have never put anything less than 93 octane in my car and I guess Toyota was not kidding when they recommended high test gas. As for the snow problem, you should slide one of the bars forward toward the windshield, or you might clean the snow off the roof before you drive. This is nice for other drivers too because you won't have snow flying off behind you when you drive.
  • jake696jake696 Member Posts: 111
    I'll be sure to sell mine promptly after 9.5 yrs. Maybe wwest will buy it?
  • jake696jake696 Member Posts: 111
    Perhaps rodut is PO'ed that he can't afford a vehicle with VSC? This message has been cross-posted to numerous other boards by him, for whatever reason.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Look, ABS helps to provide and maintain directional control, but often to the detriment of stopping distance.

    Got that???

    ABS operates to the detriment of quicker/shorter stopping!

    Now, I'm not saying that ABS isn't an extremely desireable option in certain situations. But now it has become clear via testing that in many situations, hard, even surface dry roadbeds when directional control is not an issue, and certain extremely slippery surfaces, that ABS IS a detriment.

    In addition, the idiot design engineers have decided that if one side of the vehicle is on a slippery surface and the other with reasonably high traction then the high traction side should NOT be allowed to use severe braking for fear that it would lead to loss of control.

    So unlike the majority of us who long ago learned to instinctively handle that situation correctly by simultaneously steering (into the skid) and HARD braking, newly minted drivers never encounter the circumstance ("learning experience") and on their first hazardous encounter simply slide into the obstruction with virtually no braking HP.

    But there is hope.

    The Trac control on my 92 LS would virtually instantly apply the rear brakes and begin dethrottling the engine upon detecting rear wheel slippage. Oftentimes leaving me "dead in the water" in a line of on-coming traffic until the throttle would be again released to my control.

    One of the first things I noticed upon purchasing a 00 GS300 was that the Trac system had been modified. It would still apply the brakes virtually instantly, but delayed dethrottling for a few hundred milli-seconds to give me time to react and get off the gas long enough to recover traction.

    So, what's the answer??

    1. Driver training simulators, with much the same capability as flight training simulators. Newby drivers can then learn more than just how to drive a vehicle, they can learn how to properly react to those maybe once in a lifetime circumstances where knowing the proper thing to do virtually instantly can be life-saving.

    2. Link the VSC system to the ABS such that ABS DOES NOT activate unless loss of control is "threatened", the vehicle is not following the desired direction of travel.

    3. Modify the VSC system such that it provides vibratory steering wheel feedback to the driver in much the same manner as a "stick shaker" in a commercial aircraft.

    Now back to the right tires with no traction and the left with.

    Our driver has ecountered this situation during the simulator training. Upon encountering the disparate traction situation the VSC/ABS still initially prevents hard braking on the high traction side, and simultaneously provides a "cue" to the driver via vibratory torquing of the steering wheel toward the low traction side. Should the driver never react properly the system simply operates just as it would today, elongating the stopping distance in favor of maintaining directional control.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Rodut left spam all over the boards; most is gone now.

    Steve, Host
  • njbaran99njbaran99 Member Posts: 69
    I am interested in a XLE LTD AWD w/ the HO (Nav/DVD) and noted in the Brochere that the 6 Disc CD gets reduced to a single Disc when you get the Nav.

    Does this single CD Disc get shared with the Navigation DVD Disc such that you cannot listen to a CD and use the Nav at the same time? I had an infiniti I35 that lost the 6 disc in-dash CD with Nav, but you could play CD in the Nav slot.
  • steveb84steveb84 Member Posts: 187
    Just one more reason doing business with a local store has benefits.
  • steph280steph280 Member Posts: 20
    I noticed something on the factory sunroof this weekend which I thought it was kind of neat. With the sun roof open, the small wind deflector that protrudes up actually retracts when the van gets to a certain speed. As soon as the van slows down to 30mph, the deflector goes back up. I noticed this when I hear the little motor noise intermittenly but can't figure out what it is. Just another one of those undocumented feature in the manual (or did I miss it?)
  • kmeadkmead Member Posts: 232
    I tried very hard to buy from a 'local store'. I went back many times and even went back after getting my winning bid from a dealer a few hours away to see if they would match or at least get close to it. Didn't happen.

    I like supporting local businesses, especially as I would be getting serviced there. If I had gone with my local dealer I would still be on a long waiting list (instead of picking it up on the 26th) and paying 600 more for the privelage.

    A good careful check of the vehicle using a good checklist might have shown up the missing parts at the selling dealer.
  • vicheviche Member Posts: 30
    Anyone know which 16" tires the Sienna comes with? I know some manufacturers use more then 1 make and model tire for the same vehicle. Just wondering if I should take notice of which ones are on the Sienna I'm looking at.

    Thanks!
  • mitchnymitchny Member Posts: 1
    I just test drove a 2004 XLE and the transmission down shifted from 5th to 4th when I let my foot of the gas. I discussed this issue with a friend who just purchased a XLE 2 weeks ago and he and his wife are complaining about the same issue. Their solution is to put the transmission is 4th gear. They said it is really bad in stop and go traffic. Do any other owners have the same problem.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,612
    You sure you don't mean 1st and 2nd? You won't be sepnding time in 5th gear in stop and go traffic.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Best MPG is achieved by getting to highest gear quickly. Downshifts occur with lift of gas pedal to give driver the correct "feel" of engine braking which doesn't really happen in 5th/(OD)
  • dizzyk2dizzyk2 Member Posts: 7
    I just got my AWD Limited w/ Package 6 last Monday :) The single cd player is separate from the DVD nav. I'll look around to find out where the dvd nav disk input is :) I'm still playing around with my DVD player :)

    When the car is in Park and ignition is on (engine not running) you can play the dvd in the rear screen AND the front screen as well :) Pretty neat. Toyota finally got it right.

    DizzyK2
  • njbaran99njbaran99 Member Posts: 69
    Again, I am close to making a purchase decision on an XLE Limited AWD w/ HO Pkg, which comes with the Center Console.

    As my wife wants the option to walk to the backseats to see the kids, we would like to order the Fold-down Table for the Front Seats and move the Center Console to the 2nd Row Seats.

    Has anyone ordered an Optional Fold-down Table? How much did it go for?
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    After having put 80,000 relatively trouble-free miles (save for a rebuilt trans. and cat. converter - both installed under warranty), I think its time to trade in our '99 Odyssey.

    I live in Indiana where we get a fair share of snow/ice/rain. The traction control on our Ody is absolutely worthless.

    Today, I test drove an '04 Sienna XLE with the #14 option package. This van had VSC and would like to know if this option is worth having. It was 50 degrees here today and there's no snow now. So, I couldn't test it out. To be honest, I didn't even realize this van was equipped with this option at the time of the test drive.

    I have a concern that the VSC is an additional complexity that holds the potential for a costly repair bill if I hold onto this van once the warranty period expires.

    Looking forward to everyone's replies.

    Thanks.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Without the AWD option the Sienna is FWD. You will find Trac to be VERY frustrating in a FWD vehicle. VSC is a worthwhile option which will undoubtedly help you maintain vehicular control on occassion. But VSC will not help you to obtain traction on ice and snow, nor any slippery surface.
  • kmeadkmead Member Posts: 232
    Contrary to Mr West's opinion, which was formed relative to an experience he had with a 4WD Lexus while using it offroad. As an on-road feature it is extremely valuable in assisting with the control of a very powerful engine in low traction situations. What it cannot do is overcome a overly heavy throttle application in low traction situations. Follow normal guidlelines of gentle small throttle application in low traction. TRAC also is intended to assist at low speeds

    When there is no traction to be had, nothing will help. Including 4WD.

    As for VSC, it uses all the same elements already in use by the ABS system, engine management and transmission ECUs. It co-ordinates the different elements to gain the stability features that are very worthwhile in a large top heavy vehicle. VSC also works in the rain and dry so its benefits are there anytime you operate the vehicle. Keeping out of an accident beats having an accident every time.

    In the coming year you will see it offered as a feature on nearly every vehicle and will see it as standard on nearly every SUV to overcome the stigma of easy rollover and the associated injury and death.

    Could it be an added burden from the perspective of maintenance, sure as any feature can be, but this one is unlikely to add any additional maintenance headaches as it is primarily another ECU (computer) that uses components already on the vehicle.

    I just took delivery (Friday the 26th) of my 2004 Sienna LE 8 with BW which includes TRAC and VSC. Although we have not had any snow yet, it (VSC) did work several times on ice we encounted during our lengthy drive home from the dealer. Including in a gas station parking lot covered with ice where I had a hard time standing up.

    I would recommend it. For the nominal cost, especially on a XLE or higher it is worth it.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The only vehicle I have recently, ~12 years, taken off-road was a Chrysler AWD T&C in the Lynx lake area of AZ. Road at the end near the top was nothing but a dry wash. Luckily no rain while we were up there.

    Nothing I have discussed regarding any Lexus had anything to do with off-road.

    TRAC...

    As a teaching/learning tool Trac is excellent. Most drivers have no idea how to treat the throttle in adverse roadbed conditions. If nothing else Trac will teach you that.

    But once you have learned to be "light" on the throttle, feathering, in these conditions you will find TRAC to be more than useless, it will be a nuisance.

    ABS and TRAC have only one good aspect. IF you don't know that the roadbed is slippery they will soon advise you.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Doesn't provide a learning experience and therein lies the problem. Absent the driver understanding what or how s/he has reached the "limits" VSC will begin to be treated as just a set of wider tires, more "apparent" roadbed adhesion to make use of.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    you state:
    >>
    I just took delivery (Friday the 26th) of my 2004 Sienna LE 8 with BW which includes TRAC and VSC. Although we have not had any snow yet, it (VSC) did work several times on ice we encounted during our lengthy drive home from the dealer. Including in a gas station parking lot covered with ice where I had a hard time standing up.
    <<

    That must have been TRAC engaging correct? Why would VSC engage in the parking lot? OK - were you trying to do donuts in the new van? ;)

    But to wwest's point: how did you know VSC was engaging? what was the feedback mechanism?

    you also state:
    >>
    Could it be an added burden from the perspective of maintenance, sure as any feature can be, but this one is unlikely to add any additional maintenance headaches as it is primarily another ECU (computer) that uses components already on the vehicle.
    <<

    i wonder about those break pads. conceptually, might they wear quicker if the brakes are being engaged under the control of VSC?

    anyway, when the VSC engages, how do you know? can you hear it / feel it, or are you "heads down" with your attention split between the road, the wheel, and a blinking light on the dash?

    curious.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    are really, REALLY cheap!

    Especially when compared to a hospital stay or a few eons underground.
  • indyjonesindyjones Member Posts: 49
    Is it full time AWD or auto?
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Interesting pros and cons on run flats. My concern is that run flat proponents assume that all flats occur within 50 miles of someplace that has some kind of tire that fits and also happens to be open. What happens when you are driving at night in the boondocks? Sometimes there is no substitute for a spare tire of any kind just to get you to your motel room or destination and then to the nearest open tire place the following day. Being stranded is never fun. The high cost of run flats doesn't seem justified. When it comes time to replace them, the cost of a conventional set plus a small donut spare would be much less. The spare takes up little room, or maybe none if the post is correct about the dealer installed spare option. Run flats really are more applicable to little sports cars with big tires where anything other than a real spare is impractical. Here, I think Toyota just took a shortcut. They'll find out in a few years when people experience the replacement cost, whether it was a good decision.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    A few thoughts on the age-old runflats vs. temp (space-saver) spare tire.

    1. Like the runflats, the manufacturers advise against running a space-saver further than 50 miles and at speeds under 50 mph. I don't see the advantage of a space-saver on this question.

    2. From what I understand, the mechanicals necessary for the AWD option on the Sienna intrudes into the space utilized for the space-saver in the FWD versions of the van. In other words, there isn't anyplace to properly stow the tire. If you don't mind stowing the spare behind the rear seat, go ahead and purchase a spare (either space-saver or full size) for your peace of mind.

    3. What happens at night in the boondocks? Drive your happy self to your motel (at a reduced rate of speed) just like you would with a space saver. Only difference? You don't have to stop on the side of the road to change a flat. Or your wife/daughter/mother doesn't have to stop 'in the boondocks', on the side of the road, in the dark, to change a tire. Anyone here familiar with the lawsuit filed against Ford/Firestone over a flat-tire incident wherein a young college student was abducted and murdered when she, you got it, stopped 'in the boondocks, in the dark' to change a flat.
  • kmeadkmead Member Posts: 232
    The VSC system has a light that is quite visible and you can hear/feel the ABS pump system doing its dance under the hood.

    No, I wasn't doing donuts : ) I came down an access road into a gas station that had car wash with poor drainage that layed a varied sheet of ice on the road. The road had a down hill off camber turn, the VSC system reacted there and as a exited a freeway ramp. My wife was following me in the Golf and she got it sideways on the ice for a brief period.

    I think the VSC does offer some learning, namely that you are on a poor traction surface by enabling the very noticeable ABS system.

    As I recall Mr West, you were on a diatribe not too long ago about the traction control system on your Lexus RX300 failing to do all you would have liked it to do on a muddy forest road.

    And yes you are very correct that brake pads are very cheap compared to the many alternatives.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    VSC will only activate if the yaw sensor says the vehicle is going sideways when it shouldn't, or if the steering wheel position sensor indicates that the vehicle should be turning and the yaw sensor says it isn't.

    Trac will activate, and subsequently dethrottle, if a driven tire(s) tends to spin versus other tires.

    ABS only activates during braking if a tire(s) tends to stop rotating before the vehicle stops.

    Hearing the ABS pumpmotor activation could indicate any of the above.

    I'm quite sure I have had instances wherein the VSC system activated but I never found time to look at the display icon, before it had extinguished, during those manuvers.

    Muddy road...

    I stand corrected, I did take one of the AWD RXes, out on a muddy road to experiment with the AWD and VSC system. As I remember it that was the first time I learned that the ABS pumpmotor would time out to prevent over-heating.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    kmead - if there was no yaw, are you positive it was VSC and not TRAC assisting you?

    wwest - are you positive TRAC will result in de-throttling?...i thought that was limited to VSC.

    ok - so you guys made a point about pads which i agree - one accident's avoidance is all it takes to pay for the things. but let's be honest - pads aren't replaced by every citizen on their own...and if people are agressive in their driving, they might expect to go through pads more quickly than they might without these functions.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    I do a lot of long distance travel for work and the reality is that the small spare can run for many many miles and days. The 50 miles is a legal thing, but I and many others have had the necessity of running for a while with the small spare,and it is perfectly fine even at higher speeds than 50 MPH. Run flats on the other hand are much more limited. There is still no guarantee that you will be within 50 miles of a motel with a vacancy, and even so, the next morning you still have to somehow get somewhere to a place with a tire or wait for road service. With a spare you can get to that morning meeting, appointment, etc... and deal with the tire when you have time. Remember, run flats were introduced on luxury cars as a selling point so that you didn't have to get your Gucci's dirty changing a spare. However, those cars still had spares. Toyota is taking things one step further because of the AWD limitations your pointed out. If most of your travel is close to home then maybe this isn't an issue, but for business travel, run flats are definitely a compromise. Somday, maybe an acceptable trade-off, but not until prices are comparable.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "The 50 miles is a legal thing..."

    Yes. What makes you think that the 50 miles limitation on run-flats isn't also a "legal thing"?

    "Run flats on the other hand are much more limited."

    Really? Have you seen any tests wherein the run-flats were driven to destruction and the mileage noted? I haven't.

    You are correct regarding real-world usage of the space-saver spares. I would imagine that real-world usage of run-flats to be much the same way. Manufacturers know this.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Think about it, Trac keeps activating the brakes each time the tire slips but the CA driver insists on flooring the throttle in the WA snowstorm to get up the small incline.

    How soon would the rotors warp due to braking heat without dethrottling.

    My 92 LS would apply brakes and dethrottle virtually simultaneously. My 00 GS300 would give me a few hundred milliseconds to recognize the problem and properly react by lifting the gas pedal.

    With understeering on a RWD vehicle I could see that instant dethrottling might be a definite help. I think I have read that my RX300's VSC uses both rear brakes in this instance. An understeering FWD vehicle might be an entirely different matter, instant dethrottling would undoubtedly exascerbate the problem by applying engine braking to the front wheels/tires at the worse possible moment.

    VSC will typically activate and then just as quickly deactivate before your seat of the pants sensor says "things are out of whack". Generally there is only a split second or so of time in which VSC can bring the car back into line or not. Therefore I don't doubt that if dethrottling would help the particular VSC activity it would be instantly activated.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    YI'm not aware of any studies on how long run flats last before the sidewall collapses but I'm willing to bet it's a much shorter lifespan than a temporary spare. Common sense tells you an intact tire will last longer than a damaged one. Not to mention a nail hole can be cheaply patched, while run flats either cannot be repaired or require special equipment and added cost. Other types of tire failures also occur like belt separation, tread separation and sidewall blowouts. Run flats are designed for the basic puncture, not these other types of failures.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Why would a typical nail/screw hole in the tread of a run flat be more expensive to repair than the same damage in a conventional tire? The differences between the tire types are in the design of the sidewall. You can't repair sidewall damage in EITHER type of tire. And speaking of sidewall damage...

    Sidewall blowouts????? 'Common sense' would tell you that tires with extremely stiff sidewalls would be essentially immune to the potential of sidewall blowouts. 'Common sense' would tell you that hundreds of lives would have been saved if Ford had used runflats on their Explorers.

    'Common sense' also would not have predicted tubeless tires, steel belted radials, or the widespread use/acceptance of dinky little donuts in lieu of a full-size spare. So much for 'common sense'.....
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    The tire has to come off the rim to be patched. The process to mount an run flat is complicated and only certain places do it. Therefore the cost and inconvenience is considerably more. You are absolutely correct that you can't repair sidewall damage to either type of tire. Thanks for agreeing that a spare would be nice in that event. Just common sense.
  • jake696jake696 Member Posts: 111
    Get AAA Plus, it's a great service and they cover the boondocks and the lonesome prairie's of the Dakota's...trust me.

    AND...my '04 manual says the runflat is good for 100 miles.

    ALSO: Anyone wanna buy a new '04 Sienna off E-Bay?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- gory=31874&item=2451569071
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