By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I live on the Eastside of Seattle.
I would not recommend a FWD or front biased AWD to anyone for driving on adverse wintertime conditions as you will/might encounter on the way to Mt Hood Meadows.
But:
I have a 2001 AWD RX300 but have 1.5" wheel spacers all around and upgraded to 17X8 wheels with wider tires. 3.0" Wider stance adds stabilty against rollover and wider tire tread yeilds more roadbed traction.
But the important point is while I run summer tires all year around for best quietness and comfort I always have snow chains onboard, at the ready, during the winter months.
Should the need arise the rear chains go on first and then the fronts if conditions warrant.
Otherwise take a long hard look at the 4runner.
But the bottom line is this. If you insist on risking your life and that of those you hold close then you might as well go for FWD with all of the extras, VSC/Trac/ABS/BA/EBD, as paying the extra cost for AWD will not help when the torque biasing remains at the front as it does in the Sienna.
Speaking of risking ones life and those they hold close. If you have to hit the brakes on unexpected black ice it is too late for the chains. Snow tires are always there when you need them, not just when you think you need them.
based on our recent experience and some theory. I have bought a 2006 XLE AWD Sienna this Tuesday, partially for
the added safety for our skiing trips.
My wife and friends in three cars were traveling during a light snow fall on a steep mountain road. The first car was a VW Jetta - flew off the road and down 30ft (everybody survived). The next car was Nissan Xterra RWD - started spinning and, finally, landed on its side. My wife in our old trusted 1997 Subary Legacy AWD (front biased!) didn't even feel like there is any problem on the road.
I think this has a mathematical explanation. Four wheels
you cover fout spots on the road. Unless you are driving on a skating ring, having 4 driving wheels rather than 2,
you are significantly descreasing the probability of losing control of the car (there is a good probability that at least 1 wheel has traction.)
Another observation from driving to ski resort during snow
is that often people get stuck after parking 2WD over a snow patch. Having all my cars AWD, I don't even have to pay attention to the snow in parking spots.
All Toyota's should take you about 250K-300K miles with little problem. That's 15-20 yrs of driving for most people. 15-20 yrs??? Who keeps a vehicle that long? As the poster above mentioned you're not getting married. If someone has driven the vehicle for 3 yrs say, coming off-lease, and it has 35-45K mi on it you, the 'real owner' can drive it for the next 12 years and pay significantly less than the original buyer did.
Ahh, the warranty on a TCUV is somewhat better than a new vehicle warranty also.
Contrary to the common idea that there must be something wrong with a recently traded vehicle with 6K miles on it, the reason usually has to do with the recent owner not the vehicle. Change in lifestyle, change in job, death in the family, who knows. We have two '05 Prius' on the lot traded recently one has 2500 mi on it and the other 5500 mi. The reason for trading the first was that the lady had to have the new '06 because it had a backup camera on it like the Siennas with Nav; the other was because the owner was coming out of a Mercury Marquis for ( 15 yrs ) and the Prius was just too small.
There is a "place" for snow/winter tires but it is not on a solid surface area, ice, packed snow, etc.
I am inspired by the new AWD system in the 2006 Lexus GS300 and ISxxx. On those vehicles the VSC system's yaw sensor is used to manage the allocation of engine torque. If the yaw sensor indicates that lateral forces are high, or the vehicle is not following the proper "line", engine torque is automatically shifted from the front to the rear. That allows the front tire's contact patch to be allocated entirely to directional control.
I am now looking forward to the day when the RX series adopts that same system.
DOWN with FWD or front torque biased AWD!
1. For the less technically minded among us, could someone please explain the difference between "front biased AWD" and [presumeably] "rear biased", why the latter is so much better, and which vehicles have it? Does that rule out Suburu's?
2. In the real world, how many mpg's should one expect to sacrifice on the AWD version of a comparably equipped FWD (a Sienna in my case)?
3. Are 'snow chains' the same as 'traction devices', and aren't they pretty difficult to put on in wintery conditions?
4. Do 'snow tires' really help that much more than today's all-season radials? Are a set of studded tires (despite the noise and pavement wear) worth purchasing?
Paul
However, a couple of years ago, we got SCC Shur-Grip Z cables for our Highlander. These are easy to put on and remove and you don't need to stop to tighten them.
Personally, I would rather deal with using these cables a few times a year than pay the additional upfront cost and mileage penalty all year long of AWD.
BTW, please stay away from studded tires, whether you go with FWD or AWD. They really do trash the pavement, and in the Northwest, we very rarely have snow in the lowlands.
used is a 3 year old 30K miles with service records
and 1 owners. Often these are after a lease. In my latest purchase my main reason to go for a new car was the availability of the latest safety features (in particular, curtain airbags.)
I do not disagree that used cars with very low mileage can be attributed to something wrong with an owner, not necessarily
the car. However, owners who do this often have to have 2 characteristics:
1. Have lots of money to waste.
2. Not very smart.
These characteristics are well illustrated by your examples.
Assuming that these people are not prevalent in the general
population, I would still suspect that there could be something wrong with the car.
Of course, one needs to take into consideration what kind
of car it is. I imagine that one can find lots of Mercedes
S-500 that were traded in since they didn't match the color
of somebody's new shoes or BMW750 because the I-drive was not very intuitive to operate. This is probably not the case
with Sienna, who's buyers have large families and, therefore, heavily stretched budgets. Those people just can't afford to waste $5K just
because of backup camera. So, in this particular case,
I would stay away from the used Sienna.
one misunderstanding about AWD. AWD is good not just
for snow. While I was shopping for a car in Southern California, every dealer would tell me - why do you need
it - it rains only a few times a year. Well... Do you
know how many accidents happen in Southern California during a rain? In San Diego alone, there is at least a hundred accidents during any rainy day. So, yes, most of the year you don't need AWD. Except, few days a year AWD can save your life. I don't mind paying 10% for gas
for this.
1. Biased in the case of AWD means that under normal condition the engine's torque force applied mostly to
front wheels (front-biased) or real wheels (rear-biased.)
I don't know if all one is better than another. Also,
I believe my 2001 Lexus RX300 is not biased (it applies
equal torque to both front and rear.)
Subaru has at least 4 different AWD systems, depending on
the car and a trim. Cheaper models are front-biased.
More expensive trims (e.g. Legacy GT, Outback XT) are
rear-biased for performance reasons. Their most fancy
Outback VDC combines AWD with stability control and
can control every wheel separately (so it can be become
right rear or front left-biased if it wants.) Whenever
I drive to the mountains in California, I am always amazed
to see hundreds of Subarus. I doubt this would be the case
if they didn't handle the snow.
2. I imagine it would be no more than 10% difference in MPG. It is hard to compare as your would need to drive
both on the same road under the same traffic conditions. It is the driving style that defines MPG. So,
comparing AWD and 2WD cars between friends does not make
much sense.
3. No, snow cables are not hard to put at all. In the situation that I described above, my wife was able to put
the chains herself even though she has only seen once
how I put them on (I am a proud husband:). Despite the fact all my cars are AWD, I always carry snow cables and put them on the front wheels as soon as I feel a potential trouble.
4. No, snow tires is additional expense and inconvenience.
Snow chains or cables are all you need.
Actually, Consumer Reports (December 2004) agreed. Recently, Mercedes released their new B-class FWD vehicle stating in an add that it offered better traction than RWD. You may choose not to beleive me. For a better argument take it up with CR and DC.
The Volvo XC90 is yet another good example. And while I shudder in saying it so is the new Ford Freestyle. When entering a turn, corner, both of these allocate the majority of the engine torque to the rear wheels and then begin reapportioning engine torque to the front as you reach and pass the apex of the corner/turn.
Prior to reaching the apex of the turn the front tires will be heavily loaded laterally. Once the apex is reached the lateral loading declines allowing for more engine drive torque to be applied to the front without threatening loss of directional control.
You may take note that most american manufacturers of upscale vehicles are rapidly departing the FWD and front biased AWD venue. Following the lead of MB, BMW, & Lexus no doubt. Cadillac first tried using an over-running clutch to eliminate a high rate of loss of control of their FWD vehicles due to inadvertant engine compression braking.
Nothing satisfies an old experienced owner/driver like knowing that the front tires' contact patch is totally allocated to directional control.
Just what can you do with a FWD or front biased AWD that I cannot do with my RWD? You can get up and going fast, faster, than I. I'm satisfied with that.
There are OLD pilots. There are BOLD pilots.
But there are very few OLD and BOLD pilots.
Acura, rear biased AWD?
Hell MUST be freezing over.
Pardon me while I go check my pig fence.
That statement could not be further from the truth. Snow and ice tires stop much better on glare ice than summer tires, and if they are studded they are better still. They use a different rubber compound that is much more flexible and sticks to the ice, they are also heavily siped.
Read CR or go to Tirerack.com and look at the actual tests.
Thanks,
Mark
You can also try Avis and Alamo I think, but I'm not sure and your chances of getting a Sienna versus an Uplander or Grand Caravan are slim.
July/Aug or do I have to go to Sep/Oct?
Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
p.s. also posted this on the prices paid forum. Apologies to people browsing both.
The Limited models seem to be particularly hard to find- only 1 dealer in my area has a Limited...
Does anyone have real world experience comparing the two? Is the AWD Sienna significantly better in snow & ice than the Ody?
Thanks!
Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
Would need pics/VIN to confirm this.
I, too, checked the dealership's website; the 07 is not listed. However, the "dealer inventory" is an inventory of all of Southeast Toyota's vehicles. The website doesn't even have an option to choose the 07. The Monroney sticker on the 07 looks just like an 06, like it came directly from the factory.
I realize that the first person to see one is always going to be treated with a great deal of skepticism, but it's there. Call the dealership and actually speak to a live person. Have him/her walk down to the bottom lot with the pickup trucks. It's there. It's dark grey in color, a new color for 07.
Man, I wish they would release the full specs of the 07. Although it does not do me any good since I just purchased an 06 Honda Odyssey EX-L two weeks ago...
I actually called Toyota of Concord, and spoke with Clyde.
I read to him your three posts detailing what Sienna you saw.
As I was on the phone with him, he walked down to the lower lot, and looked at the three Sienna's that are there.
They are all 2006 models.
Even the dark gray one you mentioned.
So at this point, the report of a 2007 in Concord is debunked.
Jmfreshour, if you still believe you saw a 2007, I HIGHLY recommend you go over there with your digital camera and take a picture, at this point, that is the only way anyone will believe it.
Sorry people... I was so excited that the 2007 might already be out, cause I need a mini-van bad, and I just dont think I can wait until Fall or Winter... so this is sad news... Oh well... at least we know...
One other interesting thing about the 07 Monroney was that for the base XLE (no packages), the MSRP with destination was 28k and change. That's almost $1500 less than an 06 XLE. Maybe Toyota is lowering prices on the 07s to reflect actual transaction prices, trying to do away with incentives.
I stand by the Monroney that I saw. When the official 07 info is released, I expect the naysayers to make a public apology in this forum. If I'm wrong, you can forever banish me from this forum. I'm just as interested in the 07s as you all, and thought that I would share what I saw.
2007 Camry XLE V6
Base MSRP with shipping but no option packages: $28,100 (Toyota Mid-Atlantic, via buyatoyota.com)
EPA 22/31
3.5L VVT-i V6, 6sp auto, 268hp
Chrome-tipped dual exhaust? Yes.
(info from toyota.com/camry)
--
Rumors on the aforementioned Sienna forum point to MY 2007 late in 2006, as in, not yet.
For around town driving, I preferred the 4 speed AT in my 2002 T&C to the 5 speed AT in my 2006 Sienna since it did not downshift as frequently.
I would suspect that Toyota would eventually put this in the Sienna, but I am curious as to what kind of gas mileage it would get. I am guessing that it would be pretty similar to the current EPA ratings...
Has no one here seen this link? It's a fleet site that says the '07 is getting the 3.5.
if it only works at 45mph, thats not a whole lot of use when you are travelling at highway speeds and something bad develops when you really need to know your pressures are ok! sounds like a Ford explorer disaster waiting to happen!
This says start up date is November and Delivery is January, but the delivery date would probably depend on where you live. I live very close to the Sienna plant, so I would probably be able to get one in December.