This car was a quick to market collaboration of Saab & Subaru it wasn't a redesgin effort. What did you expect from a concept to the street in 1 1/2 years. Saab needed AWD, plus they need a small compact model. They have it now. Frankly it looks better than the WRX wagon, it's nicer inside, the ride is refined, it's just as safe. What's not to like. Yes it's pricier but wheels, tires, supension pieces not to mention leather in the aftermarket is gonna ring you up 4k also.
This BS about Saab purists is killing me, driving around in their 80's model 900's. Buy a new Saab if you like the brand so much. The new ones are way better than the old POS's. The new 9-3's or 9-5's are so much better looking and drive so much nicer than the 900 or 9000 series, it's a joke.
This car can compete well with the Volvo S40/V50, VW GTI/R32, Audi A3, Benz C240 Coupe or BMW 1. For driving fun it's nicer than all of those. It provides a Euro choice for those who dislike Japanese brands. Will it sell who knows, but it is nice.
I've only driven a C230K coupe and a GTI (not the R32), so I have no frame of reference on the others (or yet the 9-2X), but I'm potentially more interested in the A3 at this point. Especially if the 3.2 makes it here to match up with the DSG.
Still, no question that this is a win for SAAB, if only in that it has people who were not ultimately interested in any of SAABs other offerings now giving them the once-over (like me!).
(i think that'll be the new 9-3x, which should be coming out next year. ...not quite the same as a "true, 9-3 hatchback," but...what do i know, i'm just a lowly "purist" who _doesn't_ own an "80's" saab.)
That's ok as long as it still looks like a Saab, drives like a Saab (although being more like the WRX isn't a bad thing for the 9-2X) and is priced right.
I own both Saabs (long time enthusiast) and a Subaru. Count me as one who thinks the new Saab 92x is a good thing. Saab couldn't possibly bring a product like this to market so quick. It does have its improvements on the Subaru WRX and Saabs could always use some improvement on their reliability. Its a great combo since both brands are unique driver cars that are not for everyone. Both enjoy the fun to drive factor. I always thought that Saab really needed an AWD and Subaru has been doing AWD for a long time. Has anyone out there purchased or leased one yet?
I think someone forgot to tell it it wasn't AWD, though. That thing would go ANYWHERE, and that year was the snowiest we've had in the last 20 or so. I spent a lot of time riding shotgun since my Camaro was essentially unusable from Nov-Feb that year.
Just saw the new Saab 9-2x today and gagged on my corn flakes. Do they think people are stupid enough to believe that its not a complete ripoff of the Subaru. Thats what happens when companys like GM get their mits on anything good ( Subaru ). I think that it degrades the Subaru name since Saab is nothing but a dying quail.Saabs image is of a yuppy snob that thinks they are euro-savy cutting edge. Subaru is an image of intelligent loyal people that know how to get the most for their $. Pity - I hope the Saab continues to swirl down the porcelain vortex and dosent need a second flush. Get you badging off my Subaru!
I find it interesting in a time when Lotus is using a Toyota engine to power their new sports car, where Chysler is sharing Mercedes engines, where all of the GM family are being forced to build unique cars off shared platforms, and where consumers have preferences for badge image and different price tolerations for luxury...I find it interesting that in the face of all that is reality, we are going to argue whether this 9-2X is a "real" Saab, or if Subaru is shooting its own foot by building Subes with Saab emblems tacked on it.
It is a bit of "who cares" in the end, one level under the image and price differentiation. The Saab adds a few new twists, it shouldn't be a big deal. If you like Saabs and don't think the 9-2X is pure...get a GM platform 9-3 sedan!
If you like Subarus, don't worry, you can laugh at the 9-2x and its $3k inflated price tag as you cruise around in your decontented WRX.
Maybe we should just stop buying cars until the industry goes back to making cars the old fashioned way. Of course, a ground-up design for an AWD 9-2x hatch/wagon would have taken 6 years, probably been no better than what the Impreza is...and cost GM $40 million in R&D. Something tells me that no one is willing to do that to sell 16k units a year, unless they cost $450,000 (ala Maibach)
You can expect more of this platform and component sharing to prevent spiraling prices.
My first car had A/C and a cassette player. Now I expect a 6CD changer with an MP3 input, in-dash, and dual zone climate control, with air filtraion by the way, and heated seats. Never mind all the power stuff, AWD, ABS, VSC, by-wire controls, etc.
The Aviator I rode in this weekend had *cooled* seats!
Consumers expect and demand more and more. And the growth segments are on the high end, not the cheap segments, which are shrinking.
The only way to offer all this stuff is to spread the costs among several models.
Watch, the forecasts are for 8000 sales per year, right? Anyone want to bet against them meeting that goal? I'll take that bet any day...
Saabs image is of a yuppy snob that thinks they are euro-savy cutting edge.
I disagree with that. I always thought Saab owners were different from other people, that they were quirky and cared about the details. I never thought Saab owners were yuppy snobs that believe that they are euro savvy and cutting edge.
I agree with jchan's response to drovemall on this one. Juice, appreciate all your comments here and on the subaru sites. Your adjectives are what many would also use to describe subaru owners. Its all a matter of likes/dislikes and perception. I think Saab will have better luck selling these 8,000 rebadged WRX Saab 92X then their other models. Great to see the lively discussion! Charlie
But unless they are comparing low-value interiors and over-priced stickers...I don't see the commonalities.
Oh, and the boxer engines.
I think Saab and Subaru are much closer in comparisons than Subaru and Porsche...
What next? That Nissan/Infiniti is the Japanese Ferrari?
Sorry...but that was a good chuckle.
I never thought Saab owners were yuppy snobs that believe that they are euro savvy and cutting edge.
Well, Saab owners do tend to be more snobby than the average Subie owner, more Euro-focused (wonder why?) and such. As for cutting edge...Saab's R&D heydays are mostly in the past, when you didn't need to spend $40 million to develop a new car. Volvo and Saab have always been among the safest cars in the world, I can't recall Subaru ever really innovating in any arena beyond moving to an all AWD platform.
I agree that Subaru and Saab share many things in common, like the fact that both companies serve a niche market. Subaru, for AWD and Saab for the person who "doesn't want to drive an Audi, BMW or Mercedes like everybody else". Both Subaru and Saab are for people that are different than everybody else, or at least drive something different than most people.
Basically it's like driving a Porsche in reverse, LOL.
low-value interiors
You obviously haven't seen the 2005 Legacy and Outback. Sit inside a Phaeton and a Legacy back-to-back and you'll notice they use identical materials on the headliner and pillars.
over-priced
Hardly, the WRX is the performance bargain of the decade. In fact Saab thinks enough of it to tack on a $4000-5000 markup.
Read any review about the Impreza (non-WRX), Legacy and even the Forester from previous generation cars and what are the two beefs?
Poor interior quality compared to higher than market prices.
Of course, the high price is the AWD add-on...but the interiors have always fallen short.
I haven't sat in the new ones, but I did read that they took a huge leap forward.
Relax...breathe...Subaru is no Japanese Porsche, no matter how many Type-R stickers you attach to the bumper.
The STi is a great car...the WRX is no shame...adding some power to the Legacy is about a decade overdue...upgrading the interiors is a smart survival decision that was also about a decade overdue.
Last thought...haven't sat in a Phaeton either, but if their interior is not a head better than the Legacy, I would spit...
From what I have read, Subes new interiors are in line with the Passats/Accords/Camrys of this world...maybe a notch better...but I doubt your enthusiasm is matching reality.
I like Subes, but the interior/exterior has always sent me elsewhere. The new Legacy is the first one that might win my dollar...but it is still up for argument. I have heard the turbo-4 is a bit of a pain in the neck in the Legacy...too rally-racer for a sports sedan...hard to hit sweet spot in the auto...and not refined for city driving...
That is one editors opinion, I have yet to taste it for myself.
Reply to #486 of 496 Re: we will get a chance to ask [drovemall #481] by jchan2 Jun 21, 2004 (4:03 pm)
Saabs image is of a yuppy snob that thinks they are euro-savy cutting edge.
I disagree with that. I always thought Saab owners were different from other people, that they were quirky and cared about the details. I never thought Saab owners were yuppy snobs that believe that they are euro savvy and cutting edge.
AWD "costs" about $2 grand, you have to factor that in. Maybe that's why they sell 12 times as many cars in Vermont vs. Florida. Even now.
Stickers? No thanks, mine is de-badged. Stealthy is best.
I find the interiors a match for the Passat, but better than the Camry or Accord.
Basically Subaru buyers tend to be affluent so the cars get cross-shopped with Volvos and Audis a lot. Before, people leaning upscale would indeed go to the Volvo or Audi store to get it, but now I think Subaru will keep a lot of those upscale intenders.
On the Legacy, at least.
The 2005 WRX gets some upgrades but it's still only average now. Forester is OK for its price class, they don't cost that much. They're about $8-10 grand less than a BMW X3 or Infiniti FX35.
I think in reality, the way most of them are equipped, the X3 is about $15K more than a Forester... I don't think you'll get a lot of cross shoppers. IMHO, most X3 buyers are BMW buyers first, SUV buyers second.
My apologies in advance if this is a previously hashed question – don’t kill me.
Not getting caught up in image or brand, why would anyone buy the 2X over the Sub? I am trying to keep an open mind, but I cannot figure that out. What does the Saab offer that the Subaru does not in terms of value add (extra year on the warranty, only two years of included service??)? No disrespect to brand loyalists intended.
And let’s face it; as soon as the A3 Sportback hits the US, this version of the 2X will become a booger in this market.
It is difficult to take Saab’s (I should say GM’s) attempt seriously.
well, the added warranty is no joke. Saab also spent time and money (that is translated as value to you) to improve the sound levels NVH in the car, making for a more luxurious ride. They also went back and re-tuned the suspensions to make the car drive in a way that is less jarring, more street friendly.
I don't know how well that worked, but one major cut on the WRX (especially the STi) is that it can be a bit unfriendly as a daily-driver. Saab customers are looking for luxury, safety and a sporting drive, in that order. I think they also added a few touches of safety devices...but had no time to re-engineer the key fob to the floor.
Add in the fact that the Saab comes with a few bells and whistles not available (am I still right on this one?) in the Subaru, and you have a compelling reason to consider the Griffin over the Subaru stars.
* better styling (subjective) * longer warranty * free service * better dealer experience (maybe) * moonroof option in a wagon * all-weather package option in a wagon * factory leather option * cornering lights * better NVH * smoother ride
The last two I'm not even so sure about, to be honest.
Notice I did *not* list an "improved interior" because the 2005 Impreza gets the same interior, in fact that center console has been in the Forester since 2003, is it NOT unique to Saab.
The biggest difference is the volume forecast. Subaru sells about 5 times as many as Saab is supposed to sell. So if 5/6 of the people here just say "buy the Subaru" then that's exactly what they want.
The funny thing is a good alternative at Subaru would be the Legacy GT. That gets you most of the things on that list. It's only missing the warranty basically. They even have a free service offer on the 2005s right now.
So when you include the Legacy GT as an alternative, the Saab is harder to justify. Unless you much prefer smaller cars.
The new Legacy GT is a no-brainer alternative. The only reason to pick the 9-2x over the Legacy GT is for the better warranty, and the "Saab" name. Otherwise the Legacy is the hands-down winner here; not even close...
Well, to add to the subjective side, I personally like the look of SAAB's rhinoplasty and other minor touches. A lot. That's an advantage.
I don't know how that tallies as a price factor, but it weighs well for me. Can't ask a Subie fan either; after all, they actually like Subie styling...}-]
The reason shoppers will drive past the Subaru dealer and spend a few thousand dollars more on a 9-2x is simple. The WRX is quite simply one of the ugliest cars made, and no matter how well it performs, I cannot get over the fact that I would have to look at when I wasn't driving it. Owning the WRX would be like dating a girl with a gorgeous, toned body who has a face like a one-eyed pro wrestler with a hair lip and a facial tick. You just don't want to be seen in public with her.
What Saab has done with the WRX is not unlike what Fox did with women on "The Swan". They took a grotesque, mutant-like exterior and spent thousands of dollars transforming it into a something that will not make small children run away in horror.
And another thing. Even though some of us yearn for the performance that the 227 hp boxer engine provides, we do not want to be driving the same car that is the vehicle of choice for 16-year-old Dominoes Pizza delivery drivers. Call me a snaab, but I'm past the Clearasil phase of my life, and spending a few thousand dollars more on a good lokking exterior and interior is money well spent.
OTOH, discretion is the better part of, umm, discretion. It's also the better part of being "past the Clearasil phase" of one's life. Well, for most of us, anyway... [-P
Saab is looking for new customers. That's the whole reason the 9-2x exists—to bring new blood into the Saab camp. I really don't think they care where they came from.
I'm simply saying those looking at the Legacy GT Limited are not likely to consider the 9-2x, simply because you get more for your money with the Legacy than you do with the Saab.
The WRX is quite simply one of the ugliest cars made, and no matter how well it performs, I cannot get over the fact that I would have to look at when I wasn't driving it. Owning the WRX would be like dating a girl with a gorgeous, toned body who has a face like a one-eyed pro wrestler with a hair lip and a facial tick. You just don't want to be seen in public with her.
Well you're entitled to your opinion, but there are loads of WRX owners who would disagree; non-owners too, such as myself.
I agree with rsholland.. They are just trying to have more options for shoppers that hit their showroom. They aren't trying to sell it as an alternative to the WRX. I don't see people cross-shopping it, thought it may turn off a few buyers that know about the re-badging.
On a personal note... it has helped the visuals.. and I sort of liked the look of the WRX wagon.
They are just trying to have more options for shoppers that hit their showroom. They aren't trying to sell it as an alternative to the WRX.
Part of that new Saab customer base is going to come from Subaru; at least from those current Subaru owners who are aware of the 9-2x. However, I don't think it will be those cross-shopping the WRX (although there will be some), but those cross-shopping the Legacy models, simply because the price of a 9-2x turbo is priced so close to the Legacy turbo. That's when the 9-2x's shortcomings become apparent.
Comments
This BS about Saab purists is killing me, driving around in their 80's model 900's. Buy a new Saab if you like the brand so much. The new ones are way better than the old POS's. The new 9-3's or 9-5's are so much better looking and drive so much nicer than the 900 or 9000 series, it's a joke.
This car can compete well with the Volvo S40/V50, VW GTI/R32, Audi A3, Benz C240 Coupe or BMW 1. For driving fun it's nicer than all of those. It provides a Euro choice for those who dislike Japanese brands. Will it sell who knows, but it is nice.
Still, no question that this is a win for SAAB, if only in that it has people who were not ultimately interested in any of SAABs other offerings now giving them the once-over (like me!).
(i think that'll be the new 9-3x,
which should be coming out next
year. ...not quite the same as
a "true, 9-3 hatchback," but...what
do i know, i'm just a lowly "purist"
who _doesn't_ own an "80's" saab.)
kthxbye.
b.
//
That's ok as long as it still looks like a Saab, drives like a Saab (although being more like the WRX isn't a bad thing for the 9-2X) and is priced right.
-juice
-Jason
Krzys
-Jason
Many thanks for the belly laugh!
But seriously, Subaru hasn't sold FWD in this country since MY1994, so that's more than a decade now.
-juice
I find it interesting in a time when Lotus is using a Toyota engine to power their new sports car, where Chysler is sharing Mercedes engines, where all of the GM family are being forced to build unique cars off shared platforms, and where consumers have preferences for badge image and different price tolerations for luxury...I find it interesting that in the face of all that is reality, we are going to argue whether this 9-2X is a "real" Saab, or if Subaru is shooting its own foot by building Subes with Saab emblems tacked on it.
It is a bit of "who cares" in the end, one level under the image and price differentiation. The Saab adds a few new twists, it shouldn't be a big deal. If you like Saabs and don't think the 9-2X is pure...get a GM platform 9-3 sedan!
If you like Subarus, don't worry, you can laugh at the 9-2x and its $3k inflated price tag as you cruise around in your decontented WRX.
Maybe we should just stop buying cars until the industry goes back to making cars the old fashioned way. Of course, a ground-up design for an AWD 9-2x hatch/wagon would have taken 6 years, probably been no better than what the Impreza is...and cost GM $40 million in R&D. Something tells me that no one is willing to do that to sell 16k units a year, unless they cost $450,000 (ala Maibach)
My first car had A/C and a cassette player. Now I expect a 6CD changer with an MP3 input, in-dash, and dual zone climate control, with air filtraion by the way, and heated seats. Never mind all the power stuff, AWD, ABS, VSC, by-wire controls, etc.
The Aviator I rode in this weekend had *cooled* seats!
Consumers expect and demand more and more. And the growth segments are on the high end, not the cheap segments, which are shrinking.
The only way to offer all this stuff is to spread the costs among several models.
Watch, the forecasts are for 8000 sales per year, right? Anyone want to bet against them meeting that goal? I'll take that bet any day...
-juice
I disagree with that. I always thought Saab owners were different from other people, that they were quirky and cared about the details. I never thought Saab owners were yuppy snobs that believe that they are euro savvy and cutting edge.
-juice
Charlie
Some Subaru aficionados will say they are the Japanese Porsche, but that might be a little bit of pride showing. ;-)
-juice
But unless they are comparing low-value interiors and over-priced stickers...I don't see the commonalities.
Oh, and the boxer engines.
I think Saab and Subaru are much closer in comparisons than Subaru and Porsche...
What next? That Nissan/Infiniti is the Japanese Ferrari?
Sorry...but that was a good chuckle.
I never thought Saab owners were yuppy snobs that believe that they are euro savvy and cutting edge.
Well, Saab owners do tend to be more snobby than the average Subie owner, more Euro-focused (wonder why?) and such. As for cutting edge...Saab's R&D heydays are mostly in the past, when you didn't need to spend $40 million to develop a new car. Volvo and Saab have always been among the safest cars in the world, I can't recall Subaru ever really innovating in any arena beyond moving to an all AWD platform.
Umm.. does anyone say this besides you?
hee hee
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* boxer engines
* viscous coupling AWD
* longitudinal engine layout
* symmetrical drivetrains
* engines between the axles
* turbos
* intercoolers
Basically it's like driving a Porsche in reverse, LOL.
low-value interiors
You obviously haven't seen the 2005 Legacy and Outback. Sit inside a Phaeton and a Legacy back-to-back and you'll notice they use identical materials on the headliner and pillars.
over-priced
Hardly, the WRX is the performance bargain of the decade. In fact Saab thinks enough of it to tack on a $4000-5000 markup.
-juice
Read any review about the Impreza (non-WRX), Legacy and even the Forester from previous generation cars and what are the two beefs?
Poor interior quality compared to higher than market prices.
Of course, the high price is the AWD add-on...but the interiors have always fallen short.
I haven't sat in the new ones, but I did read that they took a huge leap forward.
Relax...breathe...Subaru is no Japanese Porsche, no matter how many Type-R stickers you attach to the bumper.
The STi is a great car...the WRX is no shame...adding some power to the Legacy is about a decade overdue...upgrading the interiors is a smart survival decision that was also about a decade overdue.
Last thought...haven't sat in a Phaeton either, but if their interior is not a head better than the Legacy, I would spit...
From what I have read, Subes new interiors are in line with the Passats/Accords/Camrys of this world...maybe a notch better...but I doubt your enthusiasm is matching reality.
I like Subes, but the interior/exterior has always sent me elsewhere. The new Legacy is the first one that might win my dollar...but it is still up for argument. I have heard the turbo-4 is a bit of a pain in the neck in the Legacy...too rally-racer for a sports sedan...hard to hit sweet spot in the auto...and not refined for city driving...
That is one editors opinion, I have yet to taste it for myself.
New BWM - German Pontiac
Saabs image is of a yuppy snob that thinks they are euro-savy cutting edge.
I disagree with that. I always thought Saab owners were different from other people, that they were quirky and cared about the details. I never thought Saab owners were yuppy snobs that believe that they are euro savvy and cutting edge.
//
nicely put.
kthxbye.
b.
//
Stickers? No thanks, mine is de-badged. Stealthy is best.
I find the interiors a match for the Passat, but better than the Camry or Accord.
Basically Subaru buyers tend to be affluent so the cars get cross-shopped with Volvos and Audis a lot. Before, people leaning upscale would indeed go to the Volvo or Audi store to get it, but now I think Subaru will keep a lot of those upscale intenders.
On the Legacy, at least.
The 2005 WRX gets some upgrades but it's still only average now. Forester is OK for its price class, they don't cost that much. They're about $8-10 grand less than a BMW X3 or Infiniti FX35.
-juice
regards,
kyfdx
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Not getting caught up in image or brand, why would anyone buy the 2X over the Sub? I am trying to keep an open mind, but I cannot figure that out. What does the Saab offer that the Subaru does not in terms of value add (extra year on the warranty, only two years of included service??)? No disrespect to brand loyalists intended.
And let’s face it; as soon as the A3 Sportback hits the US, this version of the 2X will become a booger in this market.
It is difficult to take Saab’s (I should say GM’s) attempt seriously.
I don't know how well that worked, but one major cut on the WRX (especially the STi) is that it can be a bit unfriendly as a daily-driver. Saab customers are looking for luxury, safety and a sporting drive, in that order. I think they also added a few touches of safety devices...but had no time to re-engineer the key fob to the floor.
Add in the fact that the Saab comes with a few bells and whistles not available (am I still right on this one?) in the Subaru, and you have a compelling reason to consider the Griffin over the Subaru stars.
alloys (?), ABS, 4-speaker stereo, AC,
2005 Saab 9-2x $22,990 MSRP (adds $5k)
adds: external temp display, better wheels?, side airbags, anti-theft alarm, sound deadening interior, better warranty, new suspension tuning.
Options make a difference?
It is hard to find $5k worth of value there.
* better styling (subjective)
* longer warranty
* free service
* better dealer experience (maybe)
* moonroof option in a wagon
* all-weather package option in a wagon
* factory leather option
* cornering lights
* better NVH
* smoother ride
The last two I'm not even so sure about, to be honest.
Notice I did *not* list an "improved interior" because the 2005 Impreza gets the same interior, in fact that center console has been in the Forester since 2003, is it NOT unique to Saab.
The biggest difference is the volume forecast. Subaru sells about 5 times as many as Saab is supposed to sell. So if 5/6 of the people here just say "buy the Subaru" then that's exactly what they want.
-juice
Bob
* better styling (subjective)
* longer warranty
* free service
* better dealer experience (maybe)
* moonroof option in a wagon
* heated seats
* heated mirrors
* front windshield wiper de-icer
* rear windshielf wiper de-icer
* factory leather option
* cornering lights
* better NVH
* smoother ride
* headlight height adjusters
* 17" factory rim option
* auto climate control
FWIW I think the Outback Sport does get the outside temp gauge so that's not unique to Saab.
-juice
So when you include the Legacy GT as an alternative, the Saab is harder to justify. Unless you much prefer smaller cars.
-juice
Bob
Just like most Lincoln TownCar buyers wouldn't be caught dead in a Grand Marquis.
regards,
kyfdx
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If they're "loyal" Saab buyers, how could they not know?
Just like most Lincoln TownCar buyers wouldn't be caught dead in a Grand Marquis.
I wouldn't be caught dead in either of them.
Bob
I don't know how that tallies as a price factor, but it weighs well for me. Can't ask a Subie fan either; after all, they actually like Subie styling...}-]
Sorry Juice! ;-)
What Saab has done with the WRX is not unlike what Fox did with women on "The Swan". They took a grotesque, mutant-like exterior and spent thousands of dollars transforming it into a something that will not make small children run away in horror.
And another thing. Even though some of us yearn for the performance that the 227 hp boxer engine provides, we do not want to be driving the same car that is the vehicle of choice for 16-year-old Dominoes Pizza delivery drivers. Call me a snaab, but I'm past the Clearasil phase of my life, and spending a few thousand dollars more on a good lokking exterior and interior is money well spent.
Nothing like knowing what you like, I always say.
OTOH, discretion is the better part of, umm, discretion. It's also the better part of being "past the Clearasil phase" of one's life. Well, for most of us, anyway...
[-P
I'm simply saying those looking at the Legacy GT Limited are not likely to consider the 9-2x, simply because you get more for your money with the Legacy than you do with the Saab.
Bob
Well you're entitled to your opinion, but there are loads of WRX owners who would disagree; non-owners too, such as myself.
Bob
On a personal note... it has helped the visuals.. and I sort of liked the look of the WRX wagon.
regards,
kyfdx
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Part of that new Saab customer base is going to come from Subaru; at least from those current Subaru owners who are aware of the 9-2x. However, I don't think it will be those cross-shopping the WRX (although there will be some), but those cross-shopping the Legacy models, simply because the price of a 9-2x turbo is priced so close to the Legacy turbo. That's when the 9-2x's shortcomings become apparent.
Bob
exterior and interior
I'm gonna go nuts, here, how many time have I mentioned the 2005 WRX gets the same interior? ;-)
Only the seat fabrics differ in the interior, basically.
-juice