Ummmmm – Saab buyers? – don’t think so. This car is not intended for “Saab buyers” (assuming you meant those buyers previously owning Saabs). They are looking for new entrants into their brand, which many folks have said – and that is where I am.
Got to say – as someone who loves the compact class, but wont give Subaru a chance (sorry – no offense to Sub’s, just the fact) and someone who will be buying a new car in the next few months – I don’t see buying an 2X. Saab is an American car company trying to be European building cars in Japan. And I don’t see paying more for a Saab than a Subaru for their “time and money” investing in a band-aide that will be abandoned in 3-4-5 years, despite the added tweaks. Think I’ll stick to Audi.
Speaking of which, I am surprised there are no takers on the A3 comment. If you have not already, check it out http://www.audiworld.com/news/04/a3/
Ummmmm – Saab buyers? – don’t think so. This car is not intended for “Saab buyers” (assuming you meant those buyers previously owning Saabs). They are looking for new entrants into their brand, which many folks have said – and that is where I am.
Got to say – as someone who loves the compact class, but wont give Subaru a chance (sorry – no offense to Sub’s, just the fact) and someone who will be buying a new car in the next few months – I don’t see buying an 2X. Saab is an American car company trying to be European building cars in Japan. And I don’t see paying more for a Saab than a Subaru for their “time and money” investing in a band-aide that will be abandoned in 3-4-5 years, despite the added tweaks. Think I’ll stick to Audi.
Speaking of which, I am surprised there are no takers on the A3 comment. If you have not already, check it out http://www.audiworld.com/news/04/a3/
A3 me likey, but only in Sportback version; the three-door is too stubby. In styling, even with the waterfall grille, I think it soundly trumps the SAAB, which trumps the Sub, even if only from the front.
Depending on variants available in 20 mos., my short list includes A3 Sportback (3.2 and DSG please) and either A4 or S4 Avant (again depending on powertrain options).
"Saab is an American car company trying to be European building cars in Japan...
Better get used to it, friend claydj. It may not always be that combination or order, but that's the future of our world. Heritage, other than in consistent delivery of a brand promise (another concept open to a ton of interpretation), won't get the job done anymore.
#514 of 523 Re: 9-2X Linear vs. Legacy 2.5i Limited Wagon [jchan2 #513] by rsholland Jun 24, 2004 (9:32 am)
Saab is looking for new customers. That's the whole reason the 9-2x exists—to bring new blood into the Saab camp.
__deletia__
//
i think that's true; but in the process, "saab"(gm) will lose customers like me, who see the 9-2x as a philosophical change that "taints" the rest of the product line. the "bond" of trusting saab to do things the "right way" (or even, "saab's way") is broken. my con- fidence in saab has been shaken to its very core. and i don't know what can be done to resore it. see, it's not as simple as, "...well just buy a non-9-2x saab...."
my only "comfort" (when the time comes, in the near future, to "jump ship,") is that i see this as "gm's undoing." i'm proud to have known "saab" when it was _genuine_, before it got "watered down" to a vile "caricature" of itself.
i'll be watching saab from the "sidelines," hoping, someday, that the misteps taken by gm will be corrected and that the 9-2x and its requsite "philosophy" can be attributed to just a "bad dream."
i think that's true; but in the process, "saab"(gm) will lose customers like me, who see the 9-2x as a philosophical change that "taints" the rest of the product line. the "bond" of trusting saab to do things the "right way" (or even, "saab's way") is broken. my con- fidence in saab has been shaken to its very core. and i don't know what can be done to resore it. see, it's not as simple as, "...well just buy a non-9-2x saab...."
my only "comfort" (when the time comes, in the near future, to "jump ship,") is that i see this as "gm's undoing." i'm proud to have known "saab" when it was _genuine_, before it got "watered down" to a vile "caricature" of itself.
Well, that's certainly your choice. You're a hard-core SAAB nut, and I'm a hard-core Subaru nut. Many of us Subie fans are equally appalled that Subaru is selling its soul to GM/Saab.
However, most of us understand the realities of the business world. You could call it "Automotive Darwinism." Do you honestly think that Saab (or Subaru) could survive on their own without GM's help (or someone else's help)? The big just keep getting bigger, and the small just keep getting smaller...
BTW, before you write off Saab, maybe you should test-drive a new 9-2x. You might actually enjoy it, despite the fact it's not a "true" Saab.
A3 is too tall and short, I prefer a longer vehicle in terms of styling. So I'd go with the 9-2x in that case. For example the Mazda3 doesn't look as nice as the Protoge5, for the same reason.
What about the last Volvo S40? A swedish car built by Dutch in a Japanese plant from a car maker owned by an American company that is actually owned by a German company. Whew. Got all that?
The reason the 9-2X exists is because Saab wanted a vehicle to compete in the entry level, near luxury category with the likes of Volvo S40, BMW 1 series and Audi A3 cars, and it wanted that vehicle yesterday!
The Saab and GM execs have decided it is a segment they must compete in to grow the brand and get new customers. Its a profitable segment, and they figured if they took the time to do a lengthy development on such a vehicle for Saab, regardless of the platform, that they would end up being too late to the party to enjoy any of the spoils.
Since they decided to have the car as soon as possible, anykind of major reengineering of things to differentiate it was basically not done, other than styling changes and some minor content items. Most of the "extra" stuff is off the Subaru parts shelf, often being available on higher end models (such as the heated seats and moonroof, not even offered on Subie wagons but on WRX sedans).
I would imagine a future redesign will see more differentiation, for no other reason than they will have the time to do it. The 9-3 is on a GM platform, but I wouldn't call it a badge engineered Chevy Malibu.
I see Subaru enthusiats are worked up over this too, but this makes less sense to me. Its not as if Subaru is getting a rebadged something else, its lending (selling) the platform and engineering. Its really a confirmation of just how good the Imprezza platform and drivetrain really are. It will also put more money into Subaru's pocket for increased investment in future R&D to improve interiors, drivetrains, etc. Being a smaller volume niche player, every little bit of extra cash helps, and Subaru will only grow stronger from this.
Not only that, but the swedish-american S40 that shares its platform with the Mitsubishi Carisma, both build in holland in a factory owned by a german-japanese company had a french diesel engine made by Renault !! Ironically, the new S40 diesel, built in Belgium, has a Peugeot engine
um, not sure about the lineage...but Volvo is a Ford-owned company, not Chrysler.
They did use the Charisma platform for pre-2004.5 S40s but the new vehicle is based off no such mitsu chassis. In fact, the old S40 is a similar creation to what the current 9-2x is...someone else's engineering being rebadged...albeit with far more Volvo input than Saab in the case of the 9-2x/Impreza.
The new Volvo is not a rebadged Ford, Mitsu or anything else. I don't even think they are building them in Belgium anymore, but I could be wrong.
Lemme cruise the S40 page and see if I can find the old info.
The new ones are build in Belgium (Ghent-which is as big as the Torslanda Volvo plant in Sweden) whereas the previous one were build in Holland in a factory called Nedcar jointly owned by Volvo and Mitsubishi. The old was a joint prooject with Mitsubishi but had different body panels and rode way better than the Mitsu as well as being quieter . Both the Mitsu and the S40 had diesel Renault. The Nedcar factory now produces the new Mitsu Colt as well as the Smart 4/4 I believe. The new S40 is based on the second generation Ford Focus (N/A in the North America) as is the Mazda 3 and the Ford C-Max (Europe) The 9-2X is not as differentiated from the Sub as the previous S40 was from the Mitsu.
The main difference between the two pairs is that in the US we couldn't buy a Charisma so we only got the S40 whereas we can buy a WRX and a 9-2X so its harder to justify a purchase for the 9-2X. (I didn't say impossible, just harder)
1) GM owns Saab.. Wait till they start throwing around the lease support. If you are open to leasing, you may be able to lease a 9-2X as cheaply as the WRX.
2) Looks.. They matter.. ask my wife.
3) Warranty.
4) Sven at the Saab dealer makes the best coffee, gives you free donuts and a loaner car.
5) What's a Subaru?
Seriously.... 99% of the people in the Saab showroom won't even know where it came from. And won't care.... "Its a SAAAAABBBBB"
And almost no one that is considering the WRX is going to be shopping for a Saab either. And your personal experience doesn't count, because everyone knows we aren't normal, or we wouldn't be here "talking" about cars on edmunds.
Good point about the S40 and A3 and 1 series. They did need something.
Perhaps they could have shortened the 9-3's wheelbase instead, because for instance the Malibu shares that platform but has a shorter wheelbase. G6 and Malibu Maxx share the 9-3's longer wheelbase.
Volvo is Ford owned, but Mitsubishi was building the "last S40", i.e. previous generation, that's what I meant, and they were DCX owned at the time, at least.
kyfdx: good point about the lease incentives, that's actually a Subaru weakness. You're almost always better off just buying a Subaru, resale is pretty good but lease costs end up sort of high. Someone was cross shopping a new Outback and a Volvo XC was just $10 more per month, so Volvo is laying on incentives and/or gambling on higher residuals.
I think Saab will offer lease prices similar to Subaru's, actually. I'd bet on it. Give it a year.
saab9x - You might as well abandon Saab right now. Saab 9-2x - modified WRX wagon Saab 9-7x - modified Chevy Blazer Saab 9-3 - Same platform as the Malibu and upcomming Saturn L-series
Saab 9-5 - ??????? Modified Legacy platform perhaps?
The 9-2X is a more refined WRX wagon - much more sound deadening material, refined ride (great deal of work here), and amenities that you can not get on a WRX wagon. This car was meant to compete with the BMW 1-series, V50, and A-3.
Someone shopping for a 1-series/ V50/ A-3 might not set foot into a Subaru dealership (snob appeal Saab has it much more than Subaru at this point), but would be willing to check out a Saab. Think of it as the kids car for the parents who own the top-of-the-line cars by the respective manufacturers. That is who the 9-2x is aimed.
BTW, Juice - it was an Audi All-road and not the Volvo that was just $10 more on a lease over the Legacy.
Legacy may be too small to be the next 9-5. It's closer to 9-3 sized.
Perhaps the upcoming 7 seater platform (Halifax is the latest rumored name for it) will spawn a full-size sedan, that could be the basis for the next 9-5.
Reply to #536 of 537 Replys by kevin111 Jun 27, 2004 (6:12 pm)
saab9x - You might as well abandon Saab right now. Saab 9-2x - modified WRX wagon Saab 9-7x - modified Chevy Blazer Saab 9-3 - Same platform as the Malibu and upcomming Saturn L-series
Saab 9-5 - ??????? Modified Legacy platform perhaps?
__deletia__
//
well, my current "disappointment" is most likely going to turn into "aban- donment," at some point, in the not too distant future.
and for the record, i "get" the part about sharing a "_platform_." it's reasonable. the part i don't "get" is the filching of "cheap," insipid designs that are ill-befitting of "saab" and take it "way 'down mar- ket'."
9-7x: i would _never_ own an suv.
9-3: the best looking current or upcoming saab, but too "gen- neric." ...looks like a "be- emer."
Comments about globalization and how the auto industry is impacted – all good and true. The question I have (had) is at what point will brand, specifically the WRX and the 2X, no longer be a differentiator?
The question is not which car is better, the WRX or the 2X, the question is why pay for a SAAB when you can save money buying a Sub – knowing that they are mechanically nearly the same car. Why does brand mean so much (perhaps a rhetorical question)?
Do you see the Japanese buying Lexus – no! – Lexus is not even sold in Japan, they are happy with the same car with a Toyota tag.
Sorry Clay, Lexus is a new dealer network in Japan as of next year! They discovered that there is clout to the name in the homeland after all. Hardly surprising since the Japanese are label-chasers non-pareil!
It's not that I don't agree that the labels are silly, but to your point, provided there is differentiation, there are reasons to buy one or the other.
EVERYONE KNOWS that Cannondale makes the best bikes under $2000!
I miss my stolen Cannondales - all three of them. Now I walk or drive.
Saab does carry a bit more snob appeal (without being downright snobby) in the trust-fund crowds...
Been to parties with folks like that, it was more important to drink the right beer (label) or wine (label) than to enjoy yourself. Most of them worked at clothing retail stores (low wages) and owned expensive cars and clothing (discounts?) and talked like they were Lenny Kravitz' best friend...
For some, the Saab crown is more important than what is under the hood. Just like that Jaguar duplication from Lincoln - who would pay $5k more for the Jaguar? Those who felt it was important to have the Jaguar.
Then again, think it didn't help sell Lincolns?
"See my car, same as the Jaguar...same engine, same transmission, same basic stuff...and I paid a lot less for mine." (Man puffs out chest in pride at his frugal purchase.)
I can see it now, the frugal shopper's pride at buying the Impreza over the 9-2x
The question I have (had) is at what point will brand, specifically the WRX and the 2X, no longer be a differentiator?
The question is not which car is better, the WRX or the 2X, the question is why pay for a SAAB when you can save money buying a Sub – knowing that they are mechanically nearly the same car. Why does brand mean so much
__deletia__
//
_excellent_ observation!
homogenization moots brand differentiation. once things become so alike that the only difference is the badge, there really is no advantage for cachet. the badge _should_ symbolize brand differences, without which, make the badge irrelevant.
so, it makes no sense to buy the 9-2x when a subaru, basically, is the same thing, only cheaper.
i wish there were as much of a difference between the 9-2x and a subaru as there is between, say..., coke and pepsi.
Obviously brand name is going to be a major factor for someone who is buying the 9-2X over the Imprezza variant. But there are other reasons worth noting. It may not be simply a "snob appeal" issue for some people.
Styling is highly subjective, and most people think the Saab looks better than the Imprezza.
Options: Nothing major, but someone who wants a factory sunroof, heated seats, and or leather in their car will not find any available in an Imprezza wagon at any trim level or price. They can get them all with the Saab.
NVH levels, performance: Some people may find that having a quieter interior while on the road to be a big advantage. Others may like the driving feel of the Saab with the STi steering rack over the normal Imprezza and WRX rack.
Combine all of these, and you are bound to find people willing to pay a little extra. Whether it is worth an extra $4000 or so is up to the buyer, but if you are getting a sportier steering rack, moonroof, heated seats, leather, quieter ride, better styling (subjective), longer warranty, maintenance, and some other add-ons, some people might find it all worth a few grand more. It doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
As an aside, I saw an add for a "lease" deal the other day in the paper on Saab 9-3's. (It was actually a "smart-buy" deal as most companies will no longer lease in NY, but it is almost the same). It was for a 9-3 with an MSRP of $28,200, payments were $219 a month for 23 months, and a $16,300 payout for the 24's payment or a $350 fee to return the car. Down payment was $2400. Total payments and the down payment totalled $7437, and with the buyout total cost would be $23737. Thats almost $4500 under sticker! Sounds like a really good deal to me! I wonder how long before they are dealing on 9-2x's
I had a Huffy in college and the first jump I took bent the back rim...
Some times a brand name does matter. Pay $300 for a name brand bike and they are visibly better than that $99 special Huffy.
Though let's use the Cannondale as an example. If it was $500 and a generic copy of the same exact bike was $300, I'd get the generic in a second. Even if the color (styling) was not as good.
But I'm sure there are some people that would want the Cannondale name on their bikes, just to be 100% sure, and so everyone knew they had a quality bike.
I think that's a pretty good assessment of the situation and its options.
It is to be hoped that further downstream some increased development time will allow for potentially greater differentiation, but I for one applaud Subie for finding a fresh outlet for its excellent product, thereby mining increased sales from an audience that otherwise would pass them up, and SAAB for creating a remarkably attractive package for an otherwise "comfortable shoes"-looking offering, IMO.
I went and test-drove the 9-2x today and love the car--a subaru WRX wagon it may be, but it includes additional features and warranties that the WRX does not. I also prefer the styling over that of the WRX wagon. Do I like it because it is a SAAB? NO!! Can I tell that this is a rebadged WRX. Yes. I disagree from a former post that 99.9% of people who look/buy this car will not know it is a "WRX" with a facelift. I find it interesting that it is so easy in today's society for people to be judged and classified for driving or liking a particular brand. Am I a snob for liking Kitchenaid over Whirlpool? Lets talk more about the car and what you do or don't get for the $$ instead or labeling individuals as snobs for driving this make. I currently have an 02 civic si and have had a Vkswagen GTI VR6 before that. I am an enthusiast driver who likes a GOOD LOOKING vehicle that does a little bit of everything. I would be interested in this same vehicle if it were a Toyota, Dodge, or Volkswagen. Badging is not a reason why I am interested in it. Any performance driving enthusiast will appreciate this car as a better looking(my opinion) WRX wagon with some additional Luxury touches and better warranty. It is number #1 on my list of vehicles that I am interested in, 2-Saab 9-3 Aero, #3-Acura TL w/6spd. I hope those of you spend as much time on the Lincoln Aviator and Lexus ES300/330 boards as you do here to slam re-badging of vehicles. My $0.02
The reason shoppers will drive past the Subaru dealer and spend a few thousand dollars more on a 9-2x is simple. The WRX is quite simply one of the ugliest cars made, and no matter how well it performs, I cannot get over the fact that I would have to look at when I wasn't driving it. Owning the WRX would be like dating a girl with a gorgeous, toned body who has a face like a one-eyed pro wrestler with a hair lip and a facial tick. You just don't want to be seen in public with her.
What Saab has done with the WRX is not unlike what Fox did with women on "The Swan". They took a grotesque, mutant-like exterior and spent thousands of dollars transforming it into a something that will not make small children run away in horror.
And another thing. Even though some of us yearn for the performance that the 227 hp boxer engine provides, we do not want to be driving the same car that is the vehicle of choice for 16-year-old Dominoes Pizza delivery drivers. Call me a snaab, but I'm past the Clearasil phase of my life, and spending a few thousand dollars more on a good lokking exterior and interior is money well spent.
Here, here!!!
I completely agree with you. I am in the same boat when it comes to the looks factor of the WRX wagon. I test drove one today and was impressed with the styling and interior fabric/gauge upgrade from the WRX...
I always love the look of a Saab, those old original Saab's, even more than my Bimmer. IMHO, much of Saab's attractiveness comes from its authenticity. With the Saabaru 9-2, WRX is more of an authentic car, however ugly you call it. I think that is what bothers original Saab owners most.
My thought is if 9-2 is so much superior over WRX despite so much commonality, wait one year, Japanese are known for learning fast.
BTW, one thing I hate most about Saab is its pricing scheme, you can get one at so much below MSRP - what is the point to have that sticker? - that will turn away some buyers who wonder about what a fair price would be.
and stating that the Legacy is a much better value..
one big difference (and I can't believe nobody brought it up!) is the cargo capacity of the 9-2x, as it's a hatchback as compared to the Legacy, which apparently doesn't even offer fold-down rear seats (I could be wrong on this point, but that's what I thought I read).
If someone is looking for that flexibility of storage, no amount of supposed value superiority of the Legacy is going to compensate for that deficiency.
Take away that one elephant in the corner of the room, then the 'Legacy is much better value than 9-2x' argument has some more breathing room.
one big difference (and I can't believe nobody brought it up!) is the cargo capacity of the 9-2x, as it's a hatchback as compared to the Legacy, which apparently doesn't even offer fold-down rear seats (I could be wrong on this point, but that's what I thought I read).
Ah, try looking at the Legacy wagon... The 9-2x is a spiffed up RS/WRX wagon—not a spiffed up RS/WRX sedan.
"Been to parties with folks like that, it was more important to drink the right beer (label) or wine (label) than to enjoy yourself. Most of them worked at clothing retail stores (low wages) and owned expensive cars and clothing (discounts?) and talked like they were Lenny Kravitz' best friend..."
Lenny Kravitz' best friends as in "they know important people" or at least like to pretend that they do?
or
Lenny Kravitz' best friends as in stupid/insipid as Lenny Kravitz' is? Just curious as to what you meant. (he really is one of the dumbest major rock stars to come along.. not that I wouldn't want to be him though. Intelligence doesn't matter when you look that good. :P )
And to the guy who had that incisive critique of Saab owners a few pages back.. I do somewhat agree with his assessment of Saab owners as being yuppy snobs who think they are projecting Euro-trendy sophistication. But I think that can be said of any upscale brand owner; BMW, Audi, Mercedes, et all.
I think the average person sees drivers of those makes in a similar way. It could very well be that those "upscale" car owners are thoroughly decent, self-deprecating folks, who happen to have a little more money and/or are really into the car cheifly for it's driving experience..
but most people don't give eachother the benefit of the doubt.. they'll imagine the worst in you. Part of the hidden class barriers that exist in the USA and probably more overtly in other countries.
Very few items to read about the actual vehicle, HOST you should keep this on Topic, seems most these people do not own a Saab. Start another Forum called, DREAMERS AND TALKERS, NOT OWNERS OF A SAAB, would you like to supersize your meal?
This is a town hall, not owner's circle. One has to foster an interest in the car before being an owner. Saab's long term prosperity largely aligns with broader interest among the public, like me, who owns a Bimmer and a Benz to consider buying a Saab, as a DREAMER if you would. And since you qualified yourself speaking in the 9-2 townhall, you must be an owner of 9-2. Would you please share some insight on the car? Thank you.
aldan93, your gentle admonition of my post contents is perfectly valid, and I am suitably regretful. But apart from my tangential musings, I am here to learn about this car as it's been on my "hmm.. that looks intriguing" list for a few months now.
I just may want my very own piece of the urbane-sophisticate cache of Saab ownership.
Maybe a little over-reaction on my behalf, I just sat and read page after page of babble and lost it. Thinking of leasing the 9-2, I'll wait a bit to see some REAL comments about the vehicle first.
Almost all recent major car magazines had reviews on the 9-2, which may present what you were looking for. My personal experience on the car was merely a test drive, back to back with a WRX wagon. Several impressions I had: - I did not pay attention, but the interiors were not really all that different between the two - still more Subaru'ish than Saab'ish. One notable was the color and fabric of the seats (black woven cloths in WRX vs more elegant looking Black/Beige texture in 9-2) - The 9-2 did feel a bit quieter. - That was the first time I drove a turbo. I was not used to the cars' below 3k RPM lagging, especially came from a smooth inline-6.
I have not followed closely on the prices. For a WRX wagon, in local ads, I have seen $4500 off MSRP. For the 9-2, the best deal I know is GM employee discount which is $4000 off. So given the price difference of $3k or so, if I choose between the two today, I'd go with the WRX.
can somebody help me im in the market for a car and need some help/opinions im either going for a 2005 mini cooper s or a saab 9-2x!!! somebody help me please :-)
- You will have to pay mark-up for a Mini, at least here in So Cal. whereas possible bargain on a 9-2. - Sportier with a Mini, and possibly more attractive on your lady end. - More space with a 9-2, esp if you want to haul a bike. - Japanese made 9-2 (proven quality) vs British made with Brazilian engine(?) (go thru Mini boards for bad experience)
I know you can look at what each car comes with, then base your opinion on if the 9-2x is worth the extra money. I personally think this is off base.
The 9-2X is supposed to be quieter, more refined (modified STi steering column) and better riding, while still offering an exhilerating driving experience. For someone that wants the raw performance that a WRX gives with much less NVH might seriously consider a 9-2X and can easily justify the price difference with the NVH issues. This was a reason I know that someone justified the extra $5K for an ES300 over the Camry, and he despises status symboles!
Comments
Ummmmm – Saab buyers? – don’t think so. This car is not intended for “Saab buyers” (assuming you meant those buyers previously owning Saabs). They are looking for new entrants into their brand, which many folks have said – and that is where I am.
Got to say – as someone who loves the compact class, but wont give Subaru a chance (sorry – no offense to Sub’s, just the fact) and someone who will be buying a new car in the next few months – I don’t see buying an 2X. Saab is an American car company trying to be European building cars in Japan. And I don’t see paying more for a Saab than a Subaru for their “time and money” investing in a band-aide that will be abandoned in 3-4-5 years, despite the added tweaks. Think I’ll stick to Audi.
Speaking of which, I am surprised there are no takers on the A3 comment. If you have not already, check it out http://www.audiworld.com/news/04/a3/
Thanks for the feedback!
Ummmmm – Saab buyers? – don’t think so. This car is not intended for “Saab buyers” (assuming you meant those buyers previously owning Saabs). They are looking for new entrants into their brand, which many folks have said – and that is where I am.
Got to say – as someone who loves the compact class, but wont give Subaru a chance (sorry – no offense to Sub’s, just the fact) and someone who will be buying a new car in the next few months – I don’t see buying an 2X. Saab is an American car company trying to be European building cars in Japan. And I don’t see paying more for a Saab than a Subaru for their “time and money” investing in a band-aide that will be abandoned in 3-4-5 years, despite the added tweaks. Think I’ll stick to Audi.
Speaking of which, I am surprised there are no takers on the A3 comment. If you have not already, check it out http://www.audiworld.com/news/04/a3/
Thanks for the feedback!
-juice
Depending on variants available in 20 mos., my short list includes A3 Sportback (3.2 and DSG please) and either A4 or S4 Avant (again depending on powertrain options).
"Saab is an American car company trying to be European building cars in Japan...
Better get used to it, friend claydj. It may not always be that combination or order, but that's the future of our world. Heritage, other than in consistent delivery of a brand promise (another concept open to a ton of interpretation), won't get the job done anymore.
Goin' global, baby; and loving it!
;-)
Saab is looking for new customers. That's the whole reason the 9-2x exists—to bring new blood into the Saab camp.
__deletia__
//
i think that's true; but in the process,
"saab"(gm) will lose customers like me,
who see the 9-2x as a philosophical
change that "taints" the rest of the
product line. the "bond" of trusting
saab to do things the "right way" (or
even, "saab's way") is broken. my con-
fidence in saab has been shaken to its
very core. and i don't know what can be
done to resore it. see, it's not as simple
as, "...well just buy a non-9-2x saab...."
my only "comfort" (when the time comes,
in the near future, to "jump ship,") is that
i see this as "gm's undoing." i'm proud to
have known "saab" when it was _genuine_,
before it got "watered down" to a vile
"caricature" of itself.
i'll be watching saab from the "sidelines,"
hoping, someday, that the misteps taken by
gm will be corrected and that the 9-2x and
its requsite "philosophy" can be attributed
to just a "bad dream."
kthxbye.
b.
//
"saab"(gm) will lose customers like me,
who see the 9-2x as a philosophical
change that "taints" the rest of the
product line. the "bond" of trusting
saab to do things the "right way" (or
even, "saab's way") is broken. my con-
fidence in saab has been shaken to its
very core. and i don't know what can be
done to resore it. see, it's not as simple
as, "...well just buy a non-9-2x saab...."
my only "comfort" (when the time comes,
in the near future, to "jump ship,") is that
i see this as "gm's undoing." i'm proud to
have known "saab" when it was _genuine_,
before it got "watered down" to a vile
"caricature" of itself.
Well, that's certainly your choice. You're a hard-core SAAB nut, and I'm a hard-core Subaru nut. Many of us Subie fans are equally appalled that Subaru is selling its soul to GM/Saab.
However, most of us understand the realities of the business world. You could call it "Automotive Darwinism." Do you honestly think that Saab (or Subaru) could survive on their own without GM's help (or someone else's help)? The big just keep getting bigger, and the small just keep getting smaller...
BTW, before you write off Saab, maybe you should test-drive a new 9-2x. You might actually enjoy it, despite the fact it's not a "true" Saab.
Bob
What about the last Volvo S40? A swedish car built by Dutch in a Japanese plant from a car maker owned by an American company that is actually owned by a German company. Whew. Got all that?
Volvo -> Holland -> Mitsu -> Chrysler -> DCX.
Don't you love globalization?
-juice
The Saab and GM execs have decided it is a segment they must compete in to grow the brand and get new customers. Its a profitable segment, and they figured if they took the time to do a lengthy development on such a vehicle for Saab, regardless of the platform, that they would end up being too late to the party to enjoy any of the spoils.
Since they decided to have the car as soon as possible, anykind of major reengineering of things to differentiate it was basically not done, other than styling changes and some minor content items. Most of the "extra" stuff is off the Subaru parts shelf, often being available on higher end models (such as the heated seats and moonroof, not even offered on Subie wagons but on WRX sedans).
I would imagine a future redesign will see more differentiation, for no other reason than they will have the time to do it. The 9-3 is on a GM platform, but I wouldn't call it a badge engineered Chevy Malibu.
I see Subaru enthusiats are worked up over this too, but this makes less sense to me. Its not as if Subaru is getting a rebadged something else, its lending (selling) the platform and engineering. Its really a confirmation of just how good the Imprezza platform and drivetrain really are. It will also put more money into Subaru's pocket for increased investment in future R&D to improve interiors, drivetrains, etc. Being a smaller volume niche player, every little bit of extra cash helps, and Subaru will only grow stronger from this.
Ironically, the new S40 diesel, built in Belgium, has a Peugeot engine
They did use the Charisma platform for pre-2004.5 S40s but the new vehicle is based off no such mitsu chassis. In fact, the old S40 is a similar creation to what the current 9-2x is...someone else's engineering being rebadged...albeit with far more Volvo input than Saab in the case of the 9-2x/Impreza.
The new Volvo is not a rebadged Ford, Mitsu or anything else. I don't even think they are building them in Belgium anymore, but I could be wrong.
Lemme cruise the S40 page and see if I can find the old info.
The old was a joint prooject with Mitsubishi but had different body panels and rode way better than the Mitsu as well as being quieter . Both the Mitsu and the S40 had diesel Renault.
The Nedcar factory now produces the new Mitsu Colt as well as the Smart 4/4 I believe.
The new S40 is based on the second generation Ford Focus (N/A in the North America) as is the Mazda 3 and the Ford C-Max (Europe)
The 9-2X is not as differentiated from the Sub as the previous S40 was from the Mitsu.
2) Looks.. They matter.. ask my wife.
3) Warranty.
4) Sven at the Saab dealer makes the best coffee, gives you free donuts and a loaner car.
5) What's a Subaru?
Seriously.... 99% of the people in the Saab showroom won't even know where it came from. And won't care.... "Its a SAAAAABBBBB"
And almost no one that is considering the WRX is going to be shopping for a Saab either. And your personal experience doesn't count, because everyone knows we aren't normal, or we wouldn't be here "talking" about cars on edmunds.
regards,
kyfdx
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Perhaps they could have shortened the 9-3's wheelbase instead, because for instance the Malibu shares that platform but has a shorter wheelbase. G6 and Malibu Maxx share the 9-3's longer wheelbase.
Volvo is Ford owned, but Mitsubishi was building the "last S40", i.e. previous generation, that's what I meant, and they were DCX owned at the time, at least.
kyfdx: good point about the lease incentives, that's actually a Subaru weakness. You're almost always better off just buying a Subaru, resale is pretty good but lease costs end up sort of high. Someone was cross shopping a new Outback and a Volvo XC was just $10 more per month, so Volvo is laying on incentives and/or gambling on higher residuals.
I think Saab will offer lease prices similar to Subaru's, actually. I'd bet on it. Give it a year.
-juice
Saab 9-2x - modified WRX wagon
Saab 9-7x - modified Chevy Blazer
Saab 9-3 - Same platform as the Malibu and upcomming Saturn L-series
Saab 9-5 - ??????? Modified Legacy platform perhaps?
The 9-2X is a more refined WRX wagon - much more sound deadening material, refined ride (great deal of work here), and amenities that you can not get on a WRX wagon. This car was meant to compete with the BMW 1-series, V50, and A-3.
Someone shopping for a 1-series/ V50/ A-3 might not set foot into a Subaru dealership (snob appeal Saab has it much more than Subaru at this point), but would be willing to check out a Saab. Think of it as the kids car for the parents who own the top-of-the-line cars by the respective manufacturers. That is who the 9-2x is aimed.
BTW, Juice - it was an Audi All-road and not the Volvo that was just $10 more on a lease over the Legacy.
Legacy may be too small to be the next 9-5. It's closer to 9-3 sized.
Perhaps the upcoming 7 seater platform (Halifax is the latest rumored name for it) will spawn a full-size sedan, that could be the basis for the next 9-5.
-juice
saab9x - You might as well abandon Saab right now.
Saab 9-2x - modified WRX wagon
Saab 9-7x - modified Chevy Blazer
Saab 9-3 - Same platform as the Malibu and upcomming Saturn L-series
Saab 9-5 - ??????? Modified Legacy platform perhaps?
__deletia__
//
well, my current "disappointment" is
most likely going to turn into "aban-
donment," at some point, in the not
too distant future.
and for the record, i "get" the part
about sharing a "_platform_." it's
reasonable. the part i don't "get"
is the filching of "cheap," insipid
designs that are ill-befitting of
"saab" and take it "way 'down mar-
ket'."
9-7x: i would _never_ own an suv.
9-3: the best looking current or
upcoming saab, but too "gen-
neric." ...looks like a "be-
emer."
9-2x: "fugly" and un-inspired.
9-5: "snoozers"
ymmv.
kthxbye.
b.
//
Everone I've heard from finds the 9-2x very attractive, both Subaru fans and others.
-juice
The question is not which car is better, the WRX or the 2X, the question is why pay for a SAAB when you can save money buying a Sub – knowing that they are mechanically nearly the same car. Why does brand mean so much (perhaps a rhetorical question)?
Do you see the Japanese buying Lexus – no! – Lexus is not even sold in Japan, they are happy with the same car with a Toyota tag.
It's not that I don't agree that the labels are silly, but to your point, provided there is differentiation, there are reasons to buy one or the other.
Image is everything, I guess.
-juice
I am going to start biking to work.
-juice
;-)
I miss my stolen Cannondales - all three of them. Now I walk or drive.
Saab does carry a bit more snob appeal (without being downright snobby) in the trust-fund crowds...
Been to parties with folks like that, it was more important to drink the right beer (label) or wine (label) than to enjoy yourself. Most of them worked at clothing retail stores (low wages) and owned expensive cars and clothing (discounts?) and talked like they were Lenny Kravitz' best friend...
For some, the Saab crown is more important than what is under the hood. Just like that Jaguar duplication from Lincoln - who would pay $5k more for the Jaguar? Those who felt it was important to have the Jaguar.
Then again, think it didn't help sell Lincolns?
"See my car, same as the Jaguar...same engine, same transmission, same basic stuff...and I paid a lot less for mine." (Man puffs out chest in pride at his frugal purchase.)
I can see it now, the frugal shopper's pride at buying the Impreza over the 9-2x
The question I have (had) is at what point will brand, specifically the WRX and the 2X, no longer be a differentiator?
The question is not which car is better, the WRX or the 2X, the question is why pay for a SAAB when you can save money buying a Sub – knowing that they are mechanically nearly the same car. Why does brand mean so much
__deletia__
//
_excellent_ observation!
homogenization moots brand differentiation.
once things become so alike that the only
difference is the badge, there really is no
advantage for cachet. the badge _should_
symbolize brand differences, without which,
make the badge irrelevant.
so, it makes no sense to buy the 9-2x when
a subaru, basically, is the same thing, only
cheaper.
i wish there were as much of a difference
between the 9-2x and a subaru as there is
between, say..., coke and pepsi.
kthxbye.
b.
//
Styling is highly subjective, and most people think the Saab looks better than the Imprezza.
Options: Nothing major, but someone who wants a factory sunroof, heated seats, and or leather in their car will not find any available in an Imprezza wagon at any trim level or price. They can get them all with the Saab.
NVH levels, performance: Some people may find that having a quieter interior while on the road to be a big advantage. Others may like the driving feel of the Saab with the STi steering rack over the normal Imprezza and WRX rack.
Combine all of these, and you are bound to find people willing to pay a little extra. Whether it is worth an extra $4000 or so is up to the buyer, but if you are getting a sportier steering rack, moonroof, heated seats, leather, quieter ride, better styling (subjective), longer warranty, maintenance, and some other add-ons, some people might find it all worth a few grand more. It doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
As an aside, I saw an add for a "lease" deal the other day in the paper on Saab 9-3's. (It was actually a "smart-buy" deal as most companies will no longer lease in NY, but it is almost the same). It was for a 9-3 with an MSRP of $28,200, payments were $219 a month for 23 months, and a $16,300 payout for the 24's payment or a $350 fee to return the car. Down payment was $2400. Total payments and the down payment totalled $7437, and with the buyout total cost would be $23737. Thats almost $4500 under sticker! Sounds like a really good deal to me! I wonder how long before they are dealing on 9-2x's
Some times a brand name does matter. Pay $300 for a name brand bike and they are visibly better than that $99 special Huffy.
Though let's use the Cannondale as an example. If it was $500 and a generic copy of the same exact bike was $300, I'd get the generic in a second. Even if the color (styling) was not as good.
But I'm sure there are some people that would want the Cannondale name on their bikes, just to be 100% sure, and so everyone knew they had a quality bike.
-juice
It is to be hoped that further downstream some increased development time will allow for potentially greater differentiation, but I for one applaud Subie for finding a fresh outlet for its excellent product, thereby mining increased sales from an audience that otherwise would pass them up, and SAAB for creating a remarkably attractive package for an otherwise "comfortable shoes"-looking offering, IMO.
Win-win, I think.
Any performance driving enthusiast will appreciate this car as a better looking(my opinion) WRX wagon with some additional Luxury touches and better warranty. It is number #1 on my list of vehicles that I am interested in, 2-Saab 9-3 Aero, #3-Acura TL w/6spd. I hope those of you spend as much time on the Lincoln Aviator and Lexus ES300/330 boards as you do here to slam re-badging of vehicles. My $0.02
What Saab has done with the WRX is not unlike what Fox did with women on "The Swan". They took a grotesque, mutant-like exterior and spent thousands of dollars transforming it into a something that will not make small children run away in horror.
And another thing. Even though some of us yearn for the performance that the 227 hp boxer engine provides, we do not want to be driving the same car that is the vehicle of choice for 16-year-old Dominoes Pizza delivery drivers. Call me a snaab, but I'm past the Clearasil phase of my life, and spending a few thousand dollars more on a good lokking exterior and interior is money well spent.
Here, here!!!
I completely agree with you. I am in the same boat when it comes to the looks factor of the WRX wagon. I test drove one today and was impressed with the styling and interior fabric/gauge upgrade from the WRX...
Remember though, that the 2005 WRX gets the same interior upgrades.
-juice
My thought is if 9-2 is so much superior over WRX despite so much commonality, wait one year, Japanese are known for learning fast.
BTW, one thing I hate most about Saab is its pricing scheme, you can get one at so much below MSRP - what is the point to have that sticker? - that will turn away some buyers who wonder about what a fair price would be.
-juice
one big difference (and I can't believe nobody brought it up!) is the cargo capacity of the 9-2x, as it's a hatchback as compared to the Legacy, which apparently doesn't even offer fold-down rear seats (I could be wrong on this point, but that's what I thought I read).
If someone is looking for that flexibility of storage, no amount of supposed value superiority of the Legacy is going to compensate for that deficiency.
Take away that one elephant in the corner of the room, then the 'Legacy is much better value than 9-2x' argument has some more breathing room.
Ah, try looking at the Legacy wagon... The 9-2x is a spiffed up RS/WRX wagon—not a spiffed up RS/WRX sedan.
Bob
Lenny Kravitz' best friends as in "they know important people" or at least like to pretend that they do?
or
Lenny Kravitz' best friends as in stupid/insipid as Lenny Kravitz' is? Just curious as to what you meant. (he really is one of the dumbest major rock stars to come along.. not that I wouldn't want to be him though. Intelligence doesn't matter when you look that good. :P )
And to the guy who had that incisive critique of Saab owners a few pages back.. I do somewhat agree with his assessment of Saab owners as being yuppy snobs who think they are projecting Euro-trendy sophistication. But I think that can be said of any upscale brand owner; BMW, Audi, Mercedes, et all.
I think the average person sees drivers of those makes in a similar way. It could very well be that those "upscale" car owners are thoroughly decent, self-deprecating folks, who happen to have a little more money and/or are really into the car cheifly for it's driving experience..
but most people don't give eachother the benefit of the doubt.. they'll imagine the worst in you. Part of the hidden class barriers that exist in the USA and probably more overtly in other countries.
thanks for clarifying.
I just may want my very own piece of the urbane-sophisticate cache of Saab ownership.
- I did not pay attention, but the interiors were not really all that different between the two - still more Subaru'ish than Saab'ish. One notable was the color and fabric of the seats (black woven cloths in WRX vs more elegant looking Black/Beige texture in 9-2)
- The 9-2 did feel a bit quieter.
- That was the first time I drove a turbo. I was not used to the cars' below 3k RPM lagging, especially came from a smooth inline-6.
I have not followed closely on the prices. For a WRX wagon, in local ads, I have seen $4500 off MSRP. For the 9-2, the best deal I know is GM employee discount which is $4000 off. So given the price difference of $3k or so, if I choose between the two today, I'd go with the WRX.
- Sportier with a Mini, and possibly more attractive on your lady end.
- More space with a 9-2, esp if you want to haul a bike.
- Japanese made 9-2 (proven quality) vs British made with Brazilian engine(?) (go thru Mini boards for bad experience)
So depending on what you need... :-)
The 9-2X is supposed to be quieter, more refined (modified STi steering column) and better riding, while still offering an exhilerating driving experience. For someone that wants the raw performance that a WRX gives with much less NVH might seriously consider a 9-2X and can easily justify the price difference with the NVH issues. This was a reason I know that someone justified the extra $5K for an ES300 over the Camry, and he despises status symboles!
And I agree, it's very hard to quantify the value of reduced NVH, but many people choose to pay more to get it.
-juice