Saab 9-2X

kyfdx

Pricing unchanged

It is good news that they are bringing it back.... but, with the high MSRP, actual selling prices could be 30% higher than the '05s... Not that I believe they can get those prices...

crikey

:confuse: 30% higher...Hmmm...my thinking is that it will sell slightly higher than the 05s especially if production is limited. But maybe not 30% higher.

kyfdx

I agree... It is just with the current employee pricing and $5K rebates... them saying that pricing is unchanged, basically means nothing....

I don't know if you will ever see deals like they had in June/July again... They are bound to make fewer of them available this year...

You'd think...

ateixeira

Cool, that 230hp engine is a lot more torquey and flexible. It reaches its peak by just 3600rpm.

Not only do you have 25% more displacement, but also AVCS valve timing at low revs. It's a lot more liveable off boost, IMO.

Nice upgrade.

-juice

kyfdx

Yeah.. engine should be a lot more liveable..

Although it will be better for everyone, automatic buyers should notice the biggest difference... A lot more torque..

rsholland

The only real advantage that the Aero has over the '06 WRX Limited is the availabilty of optional HIDs. 17" wheels are standard on the '06 WRX. Leather, moonroof and AWP are standard on the WRX Limited sedan and wagon; so the gap between the 9-2X and WRX is now much closer in terms of content.

Bob

crikey

The only real advantage that the Aero has over the '06 WRX Limited is the availabilty of optional HIDs. 17" wheels are standard on the '06 WRX. Leather, moonroof and AWP are standard on the WRX Limited sedan and wagon; so the gap between the 9-2X and WRX is now much closer in terms of content.

I agree, content-wise, they aren't very far apart anymore. However, Saab has the better warranty and, not so sure about this for 2006, free maintenance. Also, the subjective preference over styling -- having seen the 2006 WRX Wagon, I still prefer the looks of the 9-2X. Although, a good deal on a WRX would sway me.

Also, aftermarket HIDs have gone down in price significantly. OEM HIDs are, of course, preferred, but if one really wants one on a WRX, it is doable for less than $300.

rsholland

The brake issue is also a big plus that the WRX has. If you recall, there have been "issues" with WRX/9-2X brakes in the past. Hopefully the new WRX 4-caliber units will have addressed that.

Bob

ateixeira

HIDs and free maintenance (we think).

But you give up roof rails and the brakes.

Seems like GM wanted to control costs given the discounts they give on the 9-2x. In 2005 it has more equipment, now I'd call it even, if that.

-juice

kyfdx

Longer warranty also.... I think the free maintenance on the 9-2X is only for 2yr/24K vs. the 3yr/36K on the 9-3...

I don't think Saab is really committed to free maintenance... Any of that could change at any time (well..not after you buy the car).

I have to agree about the look....

Of course, you can get the WRX as a sedan, something you can't do with the Saab...

crikey

Man, those WRX brakes cost quite a bit. Taking this quote from another bulletin board...
The fronts run about $550/pair without rotors, maybe a bit more. The rears are $1200/pair usually including rotors... the rears are more expensive, we surmise, because they're aluminum rather than iron (like the fronts).

That makes the WRX on par with the 9-2X, especially the Limited trims...Hmmm...very nice.

tonedebone

I thought the 92X Aero always had 4 pot front brakes (according to the e-booklet from the Saab website). I looked at mine, but can't tell.

HIDs are standard on the Sti, so how long before they offer them as options on the normal WRX ?

How much of a discount will Saab have to give (again) seeing as a base Aero will cost about the same as a Limited WRX ?

crikey

I thought the 92X Aero always had 4 pot front brakes (according to the e-booklet from the Saab website). I looked at mine, but can't tell.

Yeah, not sure about this, but a bunch of new 9-2X owners are getting their rotors/pads replaced even before 1000 miles.

How much of a discount will Saab have to give (again) seeing as a base Aero will cost about the same as a Limited WRX ?

If the rumor about Saab only producing 2500 9-2X units (where only 650 will be Aeros) is true, it might be tough to get a discount. It's hard to imagine that Saab would only produce 2500 units, though. I mean, why bother producing any at all? It's not like it's the VW Golf R32, whose limited run of 5000 units were all snapped up quickly.

But then again, one would really have to be wanting to own a 9-2X to pay the same price as a WRX Limited. We shall wait and see...I think they will discount again it to be competitive. If not, hello WRX Limited (with 17" wheels, leather and new brakes standard).

tonedebone

> It's hard to imagine that Saab would only produce 2500 units, though. I mean,
> why bother producing any at all?

Maybe because they know they'll sell every one with discounts at a loss and so want to limit their total loss. They probably want to keep the 92 name alive until there's a replacement.

I find it laughable that their press release makes it look like they've made these improvements when its all just the Subaru's evolution. Saab have had another year and still haven't come up with a single unique feature for their car.

ateixeira

Styling, free service, option packaging, and a no-haggle price. Plus a different dealership experience.

They could do more, sure.

-juice

jchan2

I like the look of the Saab more, and with only 2500 units being produced, it could be a rarity on the used car market. (not to mention whoever buys one will more than likely be the only one on the block with a 9-2X for years to come)

tonedebone

I prefer the look of the Saab too, and I'm happy I don't see five on every corner like my old Integra, but there's a difference between a rare car and an unpopular one. How many Impreza/WRX's do Subaru expect to sell this year ? Probably at least 25000, so why does Saab think it can only sell 1/10th of that ?

jchan2

Even Saab executives can see that buying an Impreza WRX is a better deal than buying a 9-2X Aero.

cece5

The brand name alone will sell the car. The WRX has a completely different market than the Saab 9-2X. The designer driven consumer will opt to pay a higher premium for the same thing in a more desirable label. And...since it's rare...it's even more desirable.

dino001

The brand name alone will sell the car. The WRX has a completely different market than the Saab 9-2X. The designer driven consumer will opt to pay a higher premium for the same thing in a more desirable label.

That's just not true. While many consumers would pay a premium for a brand, only small percentage buys brand alone. Most cross-shop and try to get at least competing bids. If you read any of Subaru posts, you'd see many same names as here. Market for a fast semi-premium (or premium) hatchback is small, moreover it consists moslty of well-informed indiviuduals who will dismantle any deal to particles before going with one (even $100 of maintenance becomes an issue). Some people go with Mazda3, some with WRX, 9-2X, others will go for A3. Almost all of those people considered all of those cars at some point (perhaps not to full extent, but at least for a benchmark).

Your statement about brand selling alone is a perfect example why GM faile here. That's what they thought - take a great vehicle, get a few months head start on the interior, tweak suspension (I could feel a difference anyway), put a nicer (arguably) sheetmetal and slap $5K premium. Perhaps in 70s it would have worked. Not today - too much info going out to consumers too fast. GM was cought cheating and called for it - that's why they needed 6 grand incentives to get out. They ended up hurting themselves and their partner.

wolftim

Actually word of mouth will dell the car faster than brand name. The 9-2X is designed for people like me, have some money but not usually willing to drop the extra for brand name or the bigger car, like the 9-3. The discounts helped me get a higher quality car for a cheaper price. When people go to buy a Saab, they don't go to buy a 9-2X, they go to buy a 9-3, 9-5, etc. That could also be the reason I have not seen any ads for the 9-2X.

rsholland

or think it odd, that all '06 9-2X Saabs have bigger 4-cylinder engines than the pricier and larger 9-3 or 9-5 models?

Bob

cece5

I think you have some valid points on the 2005 experience GM encountered. However...if next year only 2500 (as rumor has it) models are made and only 600+ Aeros are made out of the 2500 units I say that GM did their math for sell thru (sold at full price).

Be it...that you don't agree that some people have an admiration for the brand name Saab and actually see that they can acquire the brand at an affordable price, I think they can actually sell 2500 units (especially the 600+ Aeros made) during the 2006 season without the huge discounts...but maybe I'm wrong.

dino001

Sometimes even tiny supply will not meet demand. There were nice cars in short supply sitting on dealers lots for months. We shall see.

I mentioned that 9-2X is a great car. I actually own one, it is called WRX :P . I just think it was totally mismanaged. What I think they should have done is to make real SAAB interior and add couple of features as standard. I think especially Linear was a big miss - not so fast, cloth seats, no sunroof, nothing really special or premium for $23K or so MSRP is simply ridiculous. Same price as say fully loaded old Jetta 1.8T or Mazda3 with nav, leather, xenons, etc. When I think about it more, I almost feel insulted that someone may think I will go for the badge with no real content. Aero would be easier to defend (price premium is smaller) and with options it is almost worth it. After the round of huge incentives I even drove one to see if I could just swap with mine (so I get leather, sunroof and xenons) - I would not, but if I was buying new, I probably would. The $6K was great, but obviously it was not what they were hoping for. And the local dealer was clueless how to market them anyway (Tampa). They had (hold me please) three Linears (all auto I think) and one Aero auto. Yikes! I don't think they really wanted them on the lot, anyway.

BTW, did you know you need to get cold weather package to get defogger on Aero? What are they smokin?

Last thing - there was a month or two long ad campaign on 9-2X. It was also ridiculous - it tried to create impression like it was actually Saab who invented and engineered AWD on that car.

tonedebone

Totally agree with cece5; total arrogance and incompetence on Saab's behalf. They should have made the premium package standard at the base price, then there'd be no model overlap between the WRX and something to justify the raised MSRP. They've lost their only selling point on the Aero this year, so maybe that's why the production numbers are loaded towards the Linear as you still can't get a non-turbo Impreza with leather & sunroof at any price (even if it's a rediculous price on the Linear).

Saab were in a no-win with advertising. Their new car was a three year old adopted child and they couldn't leverage the buzz from the WRX without letting people know they could get the same for less elsewhere. They couldn't claim it to be either new or old, so they tried to invent a new car category.

Not sure what you're taking about the defogger. The cold package gives you heated mirrors, wipers and front seats. The mirror heaters use the same switch as the rear defogger, but without the package you still get a rear defogger.

dino001

I am pretty sure defogger is standard on Linear, but not on Aero. I know it sounds nuts, but that was how I remember it from reading Saab website (see http://www2.saabusa.com/92x/features.asp?start=modelhome) and checking the local dealer (I specifically remember looking at Aero and it did not have defogger). In their infinite wisdom they made it non-standard!

Regarding ads, they would have a real selling point also there if the interior and premium features were truly their own.

jchan2

should have made the premium package standard, made it look less like a WRX, and price it a little less, say instead of the $22,990 they wanted, maybe $20,995.

cece5

Did you buy the WRX brand new? Just curious.

I too believe the 9-2X was not advertised to it's fullest. It's a shame that it sold for less than the WRX. Total slap in Subarus' face and to everyone who purchased a WRX brand new...but that's how the big automotive companies work... especially if they hold a monetary interest.

I personally would have never considered the Saab Aero without the discounts. It sold me just based off the price plus for what it was- the WRX in disguise.

I still believe that in 2006---GM will sell the small percentage of people at full price especially if they only produce 600+ Aeros. That's based off the fact that they couldn't keep up with the demand this year (after discounts) and the upgrade in performance has created a more appropriate, competitive automobile at their MSRP.

The demand, even after discounts, creates a bigger marketing effect for 2006 (and they cut their numbers drastically if the rumor holds true). This is an entirely different demographic and market they have entered into and they didn't expect the so called "cold shoulder/poor sell thru from the true Saab enthusiast" or maybe the economy took a dive and they had to sell at discounted prices (as the other Big 2 shadowed)--who really knows.

dino001

Yes, it was January 2003 (bugeye, which others hate and I love), so 9-2X was not even mentioned then. I wished then they had sunroof and leather available and as you know they did not. It also had this really budget-like interior (previous generation). That was why I even looked at that 9-2X this June.

A few curiousities and loose thoughts:

1. Upon introduction, Subaru right away had hoped that WRX would account for over 50% of sales of their Impreza. And the demand exceeded that. Go to any Subaru dealership and you'll see 3:1 WRX incl. STi vs. RS trim. Saab tried and still tries to push Linear with apparent proportions of something like 3:1 vs. Aero. The numbers aren't exact, so I don't claim to be absolutely right, but this shows to me how totally cleueless GM/Saab is about this market segment. They probably took their larger model sale proportions and simply extrapolated them into 9-2X. Ain't wroking this way in sub-$30K non-Camry segment.

2. I think those discounts probably came exactly from Linear not selling at all (who would buy this thing for over $23K or w/ "premium" options for $26+ :sick: ?). Aero was just a ripple effect. I believe at $28-32 it was too high, but an incentive of a thousand or two would have been enough. With Linear, though it got so poor reception that they got up to $6K.

3. Transmissions: go to any Subaru dealer and you'll see manual is the king for WRX. Go to Saab dealer you see autos. I drove one - unfortunately it is a typical "compact budget" auto, similar to those in, say Ford Focus: 4 speed, no sportshift etc. (06 will get one, but it's too late). While it is fine in $17K Impreza or $24 WRX (esp. that they did not expect to sell many), it is a totally idiotic to put it in "premium" car. Not to mention the target demografic, mostly young professionals, enhusiast, who think they can drive well (even if not) and definitely prefer manual.

4. I also noticed drastic reduction of availability of wagon Imprezas at dealerships. We all know why - when you have the same stuff, but cheaper and more content at other place, why bother.

5. Saab enthusiasts - hmm... all five of them (OK, I am just kidding ). If I were one, I would be totally offended by this car: not because it is bad (it is great for what it is), but because it has nothing to do with Saab. Borrowing platforms or even powertrains may work as long as the product is trully unique (interior, features). Here they simply cheated. And I am glad they got caught.

6. My feelings as Impreza owner were not really hurt - I feel kind of twisted satisfaction, actually. Knowing other GM product execution up to date, I was not even surprised by the final effect. Just a bit disappointed. As said before - with those huge incentives I would probably buy one today, if shopping for a new. Since it had what WRX did not and got actually cheaper. But my view of GM/Saab still remains the same, because it is not Saab.

7. If this thing goes, I would not be as happy. I like choices. I just hope their lesson will not be "don't try", rather "try harder". We shall see...

wolftim

I wanted to make sure we all remember that, while the 9-2X and WRX may be the same, they are both AWD. Including Ford, Mazda, Toyota, and VW in this discussion is kind of useless. While some may not need AWD I prefer it. That eliminates many other auto makers who don't make a nice looking AWD for a reasonable price. This puts Subaru in a category that only Saab/GM has dared to try and compete in, no matter how futile. If you don't like the product Saab put out, don't buy it. It's that simple. If you like it, buy it, enjoy it to its fullest, and wave at all the people who give you goofy stares as you drive by them on the road.

dino001

I the life was just as simple, it would be great. What counts is what the customer considers important, not the wishful thinking of an exec. Their real job is to convince those who are going to or willing (not the same thing) to spend specific amount of money that this product is the right one. Toyota has Camry, Honda has Accord and it is all most people want or need. Mazda came with Six and Three (prices overlap in certain ranges), VW with Jetta. They are all different but cost similar and are considered by the same folks (or at least there is significant overlap). That is a reason enough to make comparisons. Otherwise we create artifical "classes of their own", which serve no other purpose but "feel good" for execs and enthusiasts.

tonedebone

If the defogger ain't there, blame Subaru, they built it. Just as Saab added nothing extra to their cars, they also took nothing out (except the roof rails). The Saab website is incorrect, the entries for defogger and heated mirrors are the wrong way around for the Aero.

dino001

Subaru WRX wagon has defogger standard (I know, I own one), so they did not "supply" it defoggerless to Saab. Not to mention the sheetmetal was designed by Saab, so glass probably as well. If the website is incorrect, that's allright then (small mistake), but if it represents true state of affairs, blame is entirely on Saab.

kyfdx

Subaru assembles the entire car.. It isn't like Saab takes possession of it, and then changes it...

If they left off a defogger, then chances are it was incompatible with some other option that they wanted to add, without doing major changes..

regards,
kyfdx

dino001

You cannot be serious. I bought a bag from you with my sticker on it and if the customer is dissatisfied with it because the pockets are too small, I tell him to blame you for it (BTW I designed the shape of the bag, you just designed the threads and manufactured it for me)? I don't think so. The customer doesn't give a hoot where it came from, I sold a substandard product with my badge on it, thus I thought it was good enough to be my product. I am to blame entirely.

kyfdx

Well... didn't know we were trying to assign blame...

I was just making the point, that Subaru builds the car... Saab doesn't take the car from them, and then remove options...

And..evidently.. the customer does care where it came from.... That is why Saab can't sell the car to Saab loyalists...

regards,
kyfdx

dino001

You wrote yourself a few posts ago - "Subaru is to blame", because they build it. I just responded that Saab is to blame entirely, because they badged, advertised and sold as their own (and don't forget pretty hefty premium they tried to collect).

To be clear - even being Subaru loyalist, if I were buying today (2005 MY), I would go Saab, just for the "premium" options and killer incentives. But I would have to get pricey and cold weather package (no use in Florida for heated seats), just to have basic-level equipment (standard on Kias and Chevy Aveo, isn't it?). That's what I was complaining about. As discussed before, somebody screwed up big time there in the product development department and the stinkin' defogger is just (not even the most important) manifestation of it. It is simply unacceptable for me to sell the car for $28K sticker without such equipment.

Lets just stop here - I am tired talking about this. :sick:

kyfdx

You are quoting the wrong person... but, that's okay..

Living in FL is tough, I guess... :P

regards,
kyfdx

dino001

Did not check names in the heat of argument. Line of argument was the same, so just assumed .

Apart from stinkin' defogger (how many time did I write "defogger" already?), life in Florida is great. Just those thunderstorms every frikin' day....

AWD actually more useful than one may think.

jchan2

Today was the first time I saw one on the road.

It was a 9-2X Linear, with temporary tags from Cadillac-Saab of Memphis, Tennessee. The color was Desert Silver metallic.

I thought it looked sharp. It certainly stood out in the parking lot as I drove by.

If they could fix the interior and add some features, this car might have actually sold. Not for $26,000, but at least for $22,000-$23,000 with the premium package.

wolftim

Like jchan2 I have only seen one other 9-2X on the road and it does look sharp. Who was it that said Saab only was making @2500 9-2X for next year? Is that in the U.S. or overseas and U.S.? What is the best site to visit to maybe see Saab sales numbers? Anyone's help would be much appreciated. For all those of you with a 9-2X, happy driving.

presbypal

I am looking at a 9.2x Aero with auto trans. I tend to keep my cars for up to 10 years. I read that the production for this model is about 2,500 with the bulk being 5-speeds. With such low production numbers and hearing that the AT on the Aero is suspect, what can I expect in terms of parts availability when the car is 9 or 10 years old and may need a new transmission? Will it be like the old Pontiac Fiero (sp?) where they made so few of them you couldn't get brake parts and if you did find the parts they cost you an arm and a leg? Just wondering?

dino001

9-2X Aero is mechanically Subaru Impreza WRX, number of units is tens of thousands/year. They also sell mostly manuals, though (who in their right mind would want automatic WRX ). I would not worry about the availability that much, since WRX has been (and will be) on the market for quite some time and the transmission is just changing now. If I'm not mistaken, 05 has no sportshift feature, 06 will along with new engine (not really new - reapplied version of Forester XT/Baja Turbo).

ateixeira

Keep in mind Subaru installs options at the port, not at the factory. I'm not sure exactly how Saab handles this, but a lot of things are added after the cars leave the assembly line.

-juice

crikey

If I'm not mistaken, 05 has no sportshift feature, 06 will along with new engine (not really new - reapplied version of Forester XT/Baja Turbo).

Unfortunately, both 2006 models of the Impreza and Forester will have the 4EAT without sportshift. This will likely be the same for the 9-2X.

Regarding the 2500 production numbers of the 9-2X, these seem to be rumors right now. Hopefully, Saab/GM will announce the real 2006 production numbers.

IMO, even if only 2500 units are produced, I think Saab will have a hard time selling the 9-2X without discounts seeing that the 2006 WRX content is on par with offerings for the 9-2X.

ateixeira

They might have trouble selling only because prices are higher than they were for 2005.

They gotta push the 2.5T engine in marketing. Get people to agree to pay more.

-juice

jchan2

is emphasize the 2.5i (Linear) as a "touring sportwagon" for people who want a few thrills, but not a ton. The Aero could be emphasized as a "souped up" Linear.

They could start by making the "Premium Package" standard.

That would go a long way towards making people pay up for the Linear.

They should launch a new ad campaign emphasizing the Linear. All the ads I saw were about the Aero and how sporty it was.

Then again, when is the next 9-2 coming again?

presbypal

I posted this over at the other forum, but it seems more people read this forum.

Any one have any thoughts for me in negotiating a fair price?

I was quoted a price of $21,335 for an Artic Silver Aero with auto trans and no other options. Good price if it were new, but this was used by the dealer as a loaner car and has 2,000 miles on it. It has stains on the seat fabric and scratches around the door handles and hatchback areas. What is a fair price to offer the dealer on this vehicle?

Also they have a 5-spd 9.2x Aero with 19,000 miles returned from a lease that is equipped with moonroof and cold weather.
I could be just as happy with this vehicle, but am unable to determine what might be a fair price. There are no online used prices listed yet for 9.2x's. I figure if it were brand new with incentives it would price out around 23,670.

Any thots on a fair price for either of these vehicles?

dino001

Hard to say - if you really want one, perhaps take their new "employee" price and take off about 10-15% for the silver one and 20-25 percent for the one 19K miles. This would be enough incentive for me to consider used car over new. But I am not an expert buyer, so it is just my thoughts. It all depends how much you like the car. Remeber, if you take a loan, the interest is also higher on used cars, so take that into account.

One thing more - if you only car drive a stick, forget the auto. No comparison whatsoever.

ateixeira

My rule of thumb is 10% immediately because it's used.

Then take off another 1% for every 1000 miles.

That means 12% off that first one. 29% off that 2nd one.

-juice