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to truely bug the automakers we need to keep begging for these fuel efficient cars at low prices otherwise we'll keep getting SUVs or as BMW likes to put it, SAVs.
is coming with a bigger diesel than available in the Jetta/Golf.
Will American motorists buy a low-powered, high-torque diesel in the Passat? I might, but I am an aborition.
Still think BMW could stick with I4s in the 1-series, but not with 110 hp, even 138 seems low, but would be a fine starting point at $20k. I would have liked to see a 138hp 1-series with a step up to a 160-165 hp engine.
Having driven a 323 around the block, that mild-powered BMW was still very gutsy and fast, even at just over 170hp. My 318ti wasn't fast, but did have some pep for 138 horses. Compared to my Elantra with 135hp, the BMW was much more sporting.
It's really a 325 retuned to low-end bias, so it feels even gutsier than the 325 until you rev high. Since the late '90's, BMW offered the 2.5 323 & the 2.8 328 at huge price difference. Bunch of my male-ego-problem idiot friends insisted that they would pick a stripped 328 over a still-cheaper loaded 323. They never realized that the 323 is superior to the 325 to begin with.
Now the 330 makes the expensive 328 seem feeble at all rpm range &, therefore, worthless! While there are still people regretting that they didn't get the 323 before BMW switched it to the weaker-low-end 325. Shifting more often in the weaker-low-end 325 is even worse as the long-travel & heavy clutch w/ an unnaturally located friction point is a pain in heavy traffic.
Yes, the 170-hp 323 engine which has more torque than the 325 is already dangerously close to the 328 & not too far off from the 330, & is more than sufficient for any 1-series.
The Canadian 320i L six is actually a 2.2. BMW has been quite modest in their nomenclatures lately. Always add 2 if the # is less than 25. For example, a 323 is a 2.5, a 318 is a 2.0(used to be 1.9), & a 316 would be a 1.8.
Only the overpriced Mercedes has to "false advertise". The 2003 C230 is actually a 1.8!
Ladies and gentlemen, I have created a petition that I intend to send to BMW of North America. I am attempting to get them to understand that there is a market for hatchback, 4 cylinder, and diesel BMWs here in North America. Please sign it if you would like to see a larger variety of BMW models available here. Please encourage friends and family to sign it also. Thank you, David Bullman
but, seriously, Benz offers a hatch, 4-cylinders, and I thought I read they are bringing back their diesels after their short absence. So unless BMW completely ignores their competitors, I think they already know what the market will bear.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I take it that BMWs don't excite you very much. Sadly, you are in short company with that opinion.
The 1-series might be a major hit, or a major flop, or anything in between...really depends on BMW's approach (which is the question here ATM) and the market's ability to absorb another quality car into the fray.
The 2-series is not as funny or "stupid" as it sounds to you. BMW is finally going full deal on their original intent at series numbering. Odd series for sedans and even series for coupes. 1-series Sedan, 2-series Coupe, 3-series Sedan, 4-series Coupe (started with rename of Z3 to Z4, might be a while before they actually risk the "3-series" magic by renaming to 4-series), 5-series Sedan, 6-series coupe, 7-series Sedan, Z8 Coupe/Convert and potential 8-series Coupes in future.
BTW, Volvo is starting to do the same thing within their naming. V40s will become V50s with new redesign. The S60 is a sedan, the V70 is the wagon variant. The S80 is a sedan, a wagon at that level would be a V90 (which explains, I think, the naming of the XC90).
I don't think it matters in the end. It just helps them to better track and brand their cars.
Certainly works better than having seven varieties of a Focus or Neon that ranges from rental sadness to Fast and Furious Madness (SRT4 and SVT) with no major indicators of whether the car is 2-doors, 4-doors, 5-doors, or a wagon.
And don't even get me started with the confusing nomenclature of the MB C-class lineup. Made worse by the use of a CL and CLK that sell much above the normal C-Class range. Mercedes has the most confusing of all the manufacturers lineups right now. Second only to sorting through the 11 different 911 packages to get to the right one for you. Practically need an engineering degree to make sense of their naming structures.
just revealed the pic of the 5-dr E87 1-series, which looks very much like a Mazda3 5-dr competitor. BMW already registered the 125i & 130i, which means, I believe, we're most likely to receive the 6-cyl 125i/225i w/ magnesium block, direct injection &, of course, Valvetronic. A large 2.4 4-cyl is said to be available for the 2-series. The 4-cyl 1-series is available as 120i, 118i & 116i, which is also a 1.8. A turbo 4-cyl comes a year later, right before the birth of the new E90 3-series
It makes no sense offering the heavy but weak 2.2 6-cyl from the 320i.
This is a good news as those Mercedes C-class & Audi A3/A4 don't got no std 6-cyl for us.
Do expect this 80mm-lower-than-the-Golf height to offer poor rear-seat room, though, as BMW doesn't want this cheaper car w/ the 3-series suspension &, especially, 6-cyl to steal the sales of the 3-series.
I'm sure that there will be lines and lines for the 116i model....... NOT...... Why bother with such small of an engine, besides for fuel economy and low advertised price?????
"I'm sure that there will be lines and lines for the 116i model....... NOT...... Why bother with such small of an engine, besides for fuel economy and low advertised price?????"
I didn't say lines and lines, but it'll be a hit. Don't think so? look at the MINI, so small and such a diminute 1.6L engine, but people love it and are paying above MSRP, specially for the more expensive turbocharged.
this link is very inactive...guess BMW isn't doing a great job of marketing their little 1-series arrival. With all the competition coming to market, I would think they would at least be giving people a reason to start anticipating the new model.
We should all keep in mind that HP figures are meaningless without also being accompanied by the total weight of the car (a power to weight ratio). If it's a smaller car, it won't need a large displacement (high HP) engine to go fast.
Case in point...at a recent autocross event I participated in, my VW GTI was MUCH faster than a brand new C5 Corvette on the course! I have 2.8 liters...he had 5.7...both of us had about equal experience competing in autocross...hmmm.
A second case in point - quote from Edmunds about the new Lotus Elise: Equipped with a 1.8-liter Toyota four-cylinder tuned to produce 190 horsepower, the Elise will be one of the fastest production cars on the market. Expect 0-to-60 times in less than 5 seconds, a quarter-mile time of just over 12 seconds and a top speed of around 140 mph. With a standard six-speed transmission, 17-inch wheels and tires and less than 2,000 pounds to lug around, this long-awaited Lotus could be the sleeper star of 2004.
So going against the typical American response, IMHO bigger isn't always better. All I ask for is razor sharp handling and enough power to make a car this size feel spirited. IMHO somewhere around 170 - 200 HP would be great (assuming the car weights about 3000 pounds). I would think 2.5 or 3.0 ltrs would be a thrilling ride in the new BMW 2002...er...I mean the 1 Series!
this is another question I have always had and never known quite what the answer was.
I once test drove an I30 then a 323 within 10 minutes of each other. The 323 gave up 50 hp to the I30 but felt so much faster and aggressive that the I30 might as well have been an I4 Camry.
BMW has always impressed me with their cars trannies and engine performance. They make smaller numbers turn out big performances. In fact, Nissan had to churn out more than 50 hp extra to make the G35 competitive with the 330 sedan.
That all said, I still think 110 hp, or even 138 (as I had in my 5-speed BMW 318ti) is a little too low for performance. Anything south of VW's 180hp in the Jetta will read bad in the press and might prevent the very people BMW wants to capture from stepping into the lots. NTM that Saab is rewrapping the Impreza WRX and Audi is unleashing the A3, VW will have the R32 GTI...yikes, the performance market is saturated with fun choices right now...and BMW wants to sell us a 138hp 1-series? Just sounds kind of sad...
rebadged WRX with 160 Horsepower base engine and 227 HP AERO version. BMW should be ready to prepare an M car for the 1-Series. 138 horsepower just won't compare to good ol' 227.
I think that BMW will go bust in long run. They have overstretched their rubber band propeller and within 4-5 years their profits will hit. And then there will be misery. Also Chris Bangle is doing an excellent job because this will greatly help VW to take over BMW finally.
Not necessarily. Small cars are greatly appreciated in Europe where the roads are narrow. A small car is what BMW may need to take on the other minicars in Europe. Europeans will buy the 1-series because of the diesel engines and BMW brand name. If it works here in the states is what I'm skeptical about.
The Mini Cooper and New Beetle prove that a small car can be popular, if it appeals to its target market. I think the 1 Series will appeal to people (like me) who like the attributes, and cachet, of a Bimmer but don't need a car as big (and expensive) as the 3/5/6/7 Series.
Why make such a quick & excellent driver's car that keep its nose 4-cyl light to kill the heavier 3-series?
Tiny/useless back seat is the answer. No wonder the not-so-inexpensive Z3's gone. The RWD Miata now have to watch out. How many tiny RWD competitors are out there? Not even the Mini Cooper.
because its image is different than a new beetle. I look at a Mini and I think small fun funky gocartlike car thats cheap. I look at the beetle and I just see top heavy girls only car thats expensive
is about equivilant with the Hummer H2, about 20k units each (IIRC)...small can sell, but on the major highways, small is a disadvantage against the oversized land yachts sold out there.
I am all for BMW bringing the 1-series and will definately check one out. I like small cars. But if they plunk a 138 hp engine in it and call it done, I will be putting my dollar elsewhere, maybe into a used 3-series...more likely into an A3 or 9-2X
Didn't BMW announce some time ago that the 1-Series would fit into its six-cylinder strategy for the U.S. -- i.e., no 116-hp or 138-hp four-cylinders will be available here?
AFAIK, Mini's strategic planning for US was to sell 20k units/year for first 2-3 years and then go from there, with the possible addition of more models.
They are hitting that 20k goal just fine and are about to release a Mini Convertible. Perhaps Mini's plans for the US are farther reaching than that. Hummer certainly is doing similar things from the other side of the spectrum, start with Humvee H1 for civilians, create H2 and sell more units, create H3 and sell more and more and more...
BMW, and all manufacturers, have similar hopes and plans. The 318ti sold very slow in the US, less than 30k units IIRC over the whole timeframe. I don't know how many MB 230 hatches are sold...but I would guess around 10k units per year...I could be very wrong.
The 1-series, to be a success, must only sell as many or more units than BMW plans for them to sell. If they think they will move 100k units and sell 50k, then it is a failure. If they plan to move 20k units and sell 21k, then it is a major success!
I don't think BMW believes that the 1-series will surmount Honda or Toyota on the top of the sales charts...but it will give BMW dealerships a good loaner car option (cheap) and price-sensitive customers a RWD option in the under-$30k market.
I worry that BMW will overprice the thing or underpower it...too much money and it fights with the G35/RX8/IS300 cars...too little power and Audi, VW, Saab and just about everyone else will be able to beat them with upcoming offerings.
Would be sad to own a BMW and get trounced by every Dodge Neon owner with a free-flow exhaust!
They need a decent engine (175 Horsepower) and small weight. Then your $28,000 1-Series won't be beat at the stoplight by the 17 year old in a beat up tuned Plymouth Neon.
BMWs are not about drag racing. That's why BMW gas engines don't come w/ turbo/Kompressor. You can always find a brawn-but-no-brain Nissan out powering the Beemer at a lower price.
Comments
Will American motorists buy a low-powered, high-torque diesel in the Passat? I might, but I am an aborition.
Still think BMW could stick with I4s in the 1-series, but not with 110 hp, even 138 seems low, but would be a fine starting point at $20k. I would have liked to see a 138hp 1-series with a step up to a 160-165 hp engine.
Having driven a 323 around the block, that mild-powered BMW was still very gutsy and fast, even at just over 170hp. My 318ti wasn't fast, but did have some pep for 138 horses. Compared to my Elantra with 135hp, the BMW was much more sporting.
Base 1-Series: 145 Horsepower Engine
M2: 199 Horsepower
Optional Engine: 175 Horsepower Engine on base.
Now the 330 makes the expensive 328 seem feeble at all rpm range &, therefore, worthless! While there are still people regretting that they didn't get the 323 before BMW switched it to the weaker-low-end 325. Shifting more often in the weaker-low-end 325 is even worse as the long-travel & heavy clutch w/ an unnaturally located friction point is a pain in heavy traffic.
Yes, the 170-hp 323 engine which has more torque than the 325 is already dangerously close to the 328 & not too far off from the 330, & is more than sufficient for any 1-series.
Only the overpriced Mercedes has to "false advertise". The 2003 C230 is actually a 1.8!
I have created a petition that I intend to send to BMW of North America. I am attempting to get them to understand that there is a market for hatchback, 4 cylinder, and diesel BMWs here in North America. Please sign it if you would like to see a larger variety of BMW models available here. Please encourage friends and family to sign it also.
Thank you,
David Bullman
http://www.petitiononline.com/bull2003/petition.html
Opel for the Signum?
Honda for the Euro-market Odyssey?
but, seriously, Benz offers a hatch, 4-cylinders, and I thought I read they are bringing back their diesels after their short absence. So unless BMW completely ignores their competitors, I think they already know what the market will bear.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
i can't wait any longer....
how about ZERO BMW<<< zzzzzzz
I take it that BMWs don't excite you very much. Sadly, you are in short company with that opinion.
The 1-series might be a major hit, or a major flop, or anything in between...really depends on BMW's approach (which is the question here ATM) and the market's ability to absorb another quality car into the fray.
The 2-series is not as funny or "stupid" as it sounds to you. BMW is finally going full deal on their original intent at series numbering. Odd series for sedans and even series for coupes. 1-series Sedan, 2-series Coupe, 3-series Sedan, 4-series Coupe (started with rename of Z3 to Z4, might be a while before they actually risk the "3-series" magic by renaming to 4-series), 5-series Sedan, 6-series coupe, 7-series Sedan, Z8 Coupe/Convert and potential 8-series Coupes in future.
BTW, Volvo is starting to do the same thing within their naming. V40s will become V50s with new redesign. The S60 is a sedan, the V70 is the wagon variant. The S80 is a sedan, a wagon at that level would be a V90 (which explains, I think, the naming of the XC90).
I don't think it matters in the end. It just helps them to better track and brand their cars.
Certainly works better than having seven varieties of a Focus or Neon that ranges from rental sadness to Fast and Furious Madness (SRT4 and SVT) with no major indicators of whether the car is 2-doors, 4-doors, 5-doors, or a wagon.
And don't even get me started with the confusing nomenclature of the MB C-class lineup. Made worse by the use of a CL and CLK that sell much above the normal C-Class range. Mercedes has the most confusing of all the manufacturers lineups right now. Second only to sorting through the 11 different 911 packages to get to the right one for you. Practically need an engineering degree to make sense of their naming structures.
It makes no sense offering the heavy but weak 2.2 6-cyl from the 320i.
This is a good news as those Mercedes C-class & Audi A3/A4 don't got no std 6-cyl for us.
Do expect this 80mm-lower-than-the-Golf height to offer poor rear-seat room, though, as BMW doesn't want this cheaper car w/ the 3-series suspension &, especially, 6-cyl to steal the sales of the 3-series.
I didn't say lines and lines, but it'll be a hit. Don't think so? look at the MINI, so small and such a diminute 1.6L engine, but people love it and are paying above MSRP, specially for the more expensive turbocharged.
Oh vell...
Case in point...at a recent autocross event I participated in, my VW GTI was MUCH faster than a brand new C5 Corvette on the course! I have 2.8 liters...he had 5.7...both of us had about equal experience competing in autocross...hmmm.
A second case in point - quote from Edmunds about the new Lotus Elise: Equipped with a 1.8-liter Toyota four-cylinder tuned to produce 190 horsepower, the Elise will be one of the fastest production cars on the market. Expect 0-to-60 times in less than 5 seconds, a quarter-mile time of just over 12 seconds and a top speed of around 140 mph. With a standard six-speed transmission, 17-inch wheels and tires and less than 2,000 pounds to lug around, this long-awaited Lotus could be the sleeper star of 2004.
So going against the typical American response, IMHO bigger isn't always better. All I ask for is razor sharp handling and enough power to make a car this size feel spirited. IMHO somewhere around 170 - 200 HP would be great (assuming the car weights about 3000 pounds). I would think 2.5 or 3.0 ltrs would be a thrilling ride in the new BMW 2002...er...I mean the 1 Series!
I once test drove an I30 then a 323 within 10 minutes of each other. The 323 gave up 50 hp to the I30 but felt so much faster and aggressive that the I30 might as well have been an I4 Camry.
BMW has always impressed me with their cars trannies and engine performance. They make smaller numbers turn out big performances. In fact, Nissan had to churn out more than 50 hp extra to make the G35 competitive with the 330 sedan.
That all said, I still think 110 hp, or even 138 (as I had in my 5-speed BMW 318ti) is a little too low for performance. Anything south of VW's 180hp in the Jetta will read bad in the press and might prevent the very people BMW wants to capture from stepping into the lots. NTM that Saab is rewrapping the Impreza WRX and Audi is unleashing the A3, VW will have the R32 GTI...yikes, the performance market is saturated with fun choices right now...and BMW wants to sell us a 138hp 1-series? Just sounds kind of sad...
I believe the chipped Golf TDi did eventually become factory produced for Europe.
Tiny/useless back seat is the answer. No wonder the not-so-inexpensive Z3's gone. The RWD Miata now have to watch out. How many tiny RWD competitors are out there? Not even the Mini Cooper.
Cooper is popular, but how much supply is there? They're still pretty low volume, right?
-juice
I look at a Mini and I think small fun funky gocartlike car thats cheap.
I look at the beetle and I just see top heavy girls only car thats expensive
I am all for BMW bringing the 1-series and will definately check one out. I like small cars. But if they plunk a 138 hp engine in it and call it done, I will be putting my dollar elsewhere, maybe into a used 3-series...more likely into an A3 or 9-2X
-juice
They are hitting that 20k goal just fine and are about to release a Mini Convertible. Perhaps Mini's plans for the US are farther reaching than that. Hummer certainly is doing similar things from the other side of the spectrum, start with Humvee H1 for civilians, create H2 and sell more units, create H3 and sell more and more and more...
BMW, and all manufacturers, have similar hopes and plans. The 318ti sold very slow in the US, less than 30k units IIRC over the whole timeframe. I don't know how many MB 230 hatches are sold...but I would guess around 10k units per year...I could be very wrong.
The 1-series, to be a success, must only sell as many or more units than BMW plans for them to sell. If they think they will move 100k units and sell 50k, then it is a failure. If they plan to move 20k units and sell 21k, then it is a major success!
I don't think BMW believes that the 1-series will surmount Honda or Toyota on the top of the sales charts...but it will give BMW dealerships a good loaner car option (cheap) and price-sensitive customers a RWD option in the under-$30k market.
I worry that BMW will overprice the thing or underpower it...too much money and it fights with the G35/RX8/IS300 cars...too little power and Audi, VW, Saab and just about everyone else will be able to beat them with upcoming offerings.
Would be sad to own a BMW and get trounced by every Dodge Neon owner with a free-flow exhaust!
-juice
-juice
The RWD 1-series is larger than the RWD motorcycles.