BMW 1-Series

kyfdx

Kind of sounds like the WRX, huh?

ateixeira

Hee hee. We laugh but Impreza sales doubled in 2002. And it did wonders for Subaru's image.

Now they have turbos in every car, so you can move up and stay in the family.

I'm sure some BMW newbies would buy 3ers in the future.

-juice

sunilb

I was just at the local Borders and most of the UK mags [EVO, TopGear, etc] have early reviews of the 1-series (5-door version) and by and large they really, really like it. They comment that the steering and road feel is much better than any other new BMW model.

Their only real complaint is that the suspension was set-up a bit too harshly, but these were early models and the engineers said they were going to dial it down a bit.

ateixeira

The variable steering boost hasn't been warmly received, so that doesn't necessarily mean much. How does it compare to the previous generation 3? That should be their target.

-juice

jchan2

does BMW have plans of taking the 1-Series to the states? Has BMW confirmed that the 1-Series will come to the states or not?

jrct9454

The growing consensus among the press is that no, we will not see the 1-series [hatch and wagon] here in the States, due to BMWNA's paranoia about offering cars that might "cheapen the brand". [As one who bought one of the first 1600-2s in the mid-'60s, I find this either hilarious or pathetic, depending on my mood.]

Instead, we apparently will get the so-called "2-series", i.e. the 2-door "coupe" [their terminology - looks like a plain old 2-dr sedan to me, just like my 1602] and convertible, but only with 6 cyl engines [another piece of stupidity]. Most 3-series cars in the EU are still sold with 4 cyl engines, but here in the US, it has been decided that they're not good enough for a "premium brand". Whatever.

Look for the 225 "coupe" and convertible sometime in early 2006.

jchan2

I'd rather have the 125i sedan/wagon/hatchback rather than the 225i coupe.

silverspear

I really like the design of the 1 series that I've seen pics of posted on Edmunds. I think it's really sharp for a hatch. In my opinion, much more interesting than the boring old 3 series. I was looking to an alternative to my Mercedes c230 coupe, but I guess I'll have to look at Audi A3 when it comes over next year. That would've been a sale for BMW otherwise.

jrct9454

...the A3 would be the logical alternative, if you want front-drive. I think the special appeal of the 1er is rear-drive. Arguing with marketing types at BMW is useless - as long as their sales hold steady, they presume that their strategy must be working...never mind the possibility of missed opportunities...

saugatak

well there is some sense to their logic.

will they be able to command $40k for a civic sized fully loaded 330 if they sell the 1-series in 4 cylinders for $25k? will people fork out $75k for a 7-series if the 1-series becomes as common as Civics?

it's always easy to bet someone else's ranch. methinks if it were your cash cow that could get gored, you'd be conservative too.

revdrluv

Premium marks sell their cars for the same, if not more money, overseas yet at the same time also sell cars like the Audi A2, Mercedes A-Class etc...

creakid1

& worship these luxo Germans like God. BMW offers vinyl instead of cloth here because people rather pamper the car & be baked on the pan under the sun than sweating or spilling liquid into the breath-able cooler cloth.

jchan2

that's true. In Europe, Mercedes Taxis are all over the streets, yet the Europeans don't mind seeing an E240 Taxi down the street from their apartment where they park THEIR E240. But we Americans mind when we see a C230 Kompressor down the street from our S55 AMG, because we think that the C230 Kompressor disgraces the Mercedes brand (so to speak)
Also, the Europeans see little Audis, BMWs and Mercedes' all over the streets, yet the ones that can afford the large BMWs and Mercedes Benz cars and the Audi sedans don't mind when they see a smaller hatchback down the road with a TAXI sign in there. I just don't get it, because I wouldn't mind seeing an A3 down the street from where I park my A6 3.0. (if I had one, that is)

revdrluv

I personally think that this is an outdated look at marketing. Americans are more then ready for premium small cars. Just look at the resale value of a Mini, it's no bargain to buy a two year old model. Demand is still high.

BMW would make a killing with the 1-series, especially here in southern California.

I don't know who Mercedes and BMW think they are fooling by pretending to be exclusive anyway. The only truly "exclusive" luxury cars are WAAAAAYYY beyond their customers budgets. Besides, what are the upper middle class going to go to past Mercedes or BMW anyway?

307web

The Mini looks good and trendy. A 1-series does not.
It could be the next 318ti disaster. BMW tried hatchbacks in the US already. Mercedes is also having problems selling their C class hatchback in the US.

creakid1

The Mini looks like a pet, not a car. I couldn't convince my little sister to go for the exciting RWD new baby Beemer over the Mini.

revdrluv

True, looks do have a lot to do with it. But driving prowess could to.

The 318 was based on the (even then) older 3-series platform. It was always seen as not being good enough for it's price tag because of that.

The C-Class coupe is also not considered to be a very good steer.

The Mini on the other hand get's tons of praise for it's sporting abilities.

The 1-series isn't being developed as an afterthought like the past and present premium german hatchbacks. Intitial reaction is that it is an amazing car to be behind the wheel of. The public can usually route out a pretender, and it doesn't look like it is one. So again I think it will do well if they sell it here.

jchan2

Agreed. The 1-Series and A3 would sell pretty well since they were not afterthoughts added on to the line later to lower the entry price for a specific brand.

307web

The 1-series is not good-looking period. A few people would like them like a few people liked the Z3 coupe/wagon.
It will flop.
Maybe the convertible 2-series would do OK if it looks good. The artitst renderings of that looks pretty good.
Audi does not need more confusion between Golfs, A3s and Phaetons and their buyers being confused on what is a premium brand and what is an econo brand.

saugatak

VW's lineup of economy and luxury cars and the brand confusion it's caused is a good reason for BMW to be careful with the 1-series.

kyfdx

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... There are plenty of BMW loyalists who love the look of the 1-series.

That said, my wife hates the MINI, while I love it.

A loaded 1-series will probably hit between $28K-$32K, which puts it comfortably more expensive than a MINI Cooper S, and a good $5K under a 3-series. Also, when you see the new 3-series, I think you'll be able to see the "family" resemblence to the 1-series. I think they could sell plenty of them, but most likely, they won't offer the full line.

regards,
kyfdx

m4d_cow

IMO they still have to think twice about setting up a price range for the 1 series
On one side bmw cant sell it at higher prices or itll be way too hard to compete w/ other hatches, but on the other side if they set the price too low it will cannibalize the MINI sales
itll be fun to see how bmw will deal w/ this problem

I actually find the design rather nice, though its nothing compared to the agressive 3 series
my only complaint so far is the interior design, and i-drive? in such as small car? i wonder what feature bmw will drop off from the already simplified (but still confusing lol) 5 series i-drive

307web

I don't think it will cannibalize Mini sales because the people who want Minis will get them and the people who don't like Minis won't buy one regardless of the 1-Series.

harlequin1971

Audi does not need more confusion between Golfs, A3s and Phaetons and their buyers being confused on what is a premium brand and what is an econo brand.

Such a lack of credit to the american consumer.

I call this the GM-rationalization of imaging.

Why does Toyota need to stick a Lexus badge on their expensive cars and a Scion sticker on their cheapest cars?

Are we that thin minded to buy, at the end of the day, that a $20,000 Mercedes or BMW is trying to pass itself off as a luxury car?

It is not rational...but then, when are consumers rational in this country?

I say, give us the A3, an upgrade option with nicer sheet metal (yes I have seen one) than the Golf.

Give us the Phaeton, not everyone with money needs to throw it in your face to be happy. Some people do not like to be conspicuous, but still like nice cars, ahem - Acura has lived up to that market for the last 10 years or so...Lexus, in some models, as well.

If GM was letting Cadillac release the Solstice instead of Pontiac...they would have priced the same car at $30k and not $20k as its target, right?

I say, bring to market a good car, regardless of its tags and it should sell...bring a bad car and it will flop.

The 1-series I have been seeing looks a bit ugly to my tastes, not unlike the BMW coupe thing. The Impreza has better lines to its wagon than the 1-series, IMO. But that is just my opinion.

Now, that concept convertible from a few years back, that had my attention! As it is, BMW can't seem to bring us an affordable sporting car (under $30k) and may have been better marketing the 1-series as a Mini here in the US to us dumb Americans.

Much like Toyota did with the IS300, right?

kyfdx

Granted, I have only been to 15-20 Toyota dealers.. but, if they sold Lexuses (Lexi?), I wouldn't even consider one. Toyota has the worst sales/dealership experience there is. Starting a new brand and requiring stand-alone dealerships with excellent customer service is the smartest thing Toyota ever did. It isn't that I wouldn't buy a Toyota GS400, I just wouldn't go to one of there godawful dealers to do it.

regards,
kyfdx

revdrluv

True that!

saugatak

I say, bring to market a good car, regardless of its tags and it should sell...bring a bad car and it will flop.

I think you're underestimating the power of marketing. Infiniti made decent cars for a long time that didn't sell b/c their marketing was so awful.

There are plenty of mediocre products that sell well or better than superior products just because of brand name or the right marketing.

It's not enough to make a good product. This is the real world, not field of dreams. If you build it, maybe they'll come, maybe they won't.

m4d_cow

well i dont like the 1 series design that much, but compared to the 3 series hatchbacks its definitely better looking, tho yeah i agree w/ you the audi a3 looks much better then the 1 series

"I say, bring to market a good car, regardless of its tags and it should sell...bring a bad car and it will flop".

I actually consider marketing as crucial, i agree w/ saugatak's opinion 'bout this, mercedes are far less reliable than any infiniti could be, but ppl still buy them over the infiniti, why? cos it got the 3-point-star on the hood
my way of thinking about this is similar to yours, but lets be realistic, its hard to change ppl's opinion about the brands
you can ask ppl whether they will choose toyota avalon over lexus gs300, im pretty sure most of them will say no

jchan2

plays an important figure for people when buying cars after you pass a certain price point. (maybe $25K)

creakid1

"Infiniti made decent cars for a long time that didn't sell b/c their marketing was so awful."

What's so good about Infiniti's anyway? Its FWD models rode uncomfortably. Its RWD models lack leg room since the original Q45, which doesn't just ride firmer than the LS400 but also bottoms out the front spring-travel too soon. & none of them got precise steering.

At least the unreliable Mercedes' rode comfortably w/ rock steadiness.

m4d_cow

hmm true... you got a point there, maybe itll be easier to compare the benz with a lexus both ride comfortably, and at some points the lexus is quieter and cheaper, but still noone can deny the fact that the stars speaks for itself :)its just my opinion tho

m4d_cow

anyway, back to the main topic, what do u guys think of the 1 series i-drive? is it gonna be simpler than the 5 series?
i used to find i-drive a chore to operate, and now i find it useless, do we need the i-drive at all to begin with?

saugatak

What's so good about Infiniti's anyway? Its FWD models rode uncomfortably. Its RWD models lack leg room since the original Q45, which doesn't just ride firmer than the LS400 but also bottoms out the front spring-travel too soon. & none of them got precise steering.

At least the unreliable Mercedes' rode comfortably w/ rock steadiness.

LOL. Maybe I should have chosen another example.

i used to find i-drive a chore to operate, and now i find it useless, do we need the i-drive at all to begin with?

BMW installed i-drive on the theory it would make car operations easier and simpler without all the buttons. I think this is just BS.

IMO, BMW did not install i-drive to make the car more ergonomical or easy to use. i-drive is just another way for BMW to save costs and make greater profits.

The cost of high quality buttons and making sure they work add up. If they're going to put a screen in every car anyway, it's cheaper to install crappy windows software and a knob than to install 15 buttons.

I could see the point of i-drive if it controlled say 3 functions and removed 5 buttons.

But when I look at the controls of my parents' 7-series (first to have i-drive 1.0), the dashboard is empty, hardly anything at all.

What's wrong with a few buttons? This is nothing more than a cost saving measure by the greedy suits at BMW.

revdrluv

If that were truly the case wouldn't Hyundai and Kia (even Ford and Chevy) be putting them in all of their cars? Surely these companies put a far greater effort in to cost cutting measures then BMW.

creakid1

The idea of i-drive is suppose to be a luxury feature by placing a knob next to the center armrest so you never have to reach out.

Unfortunately it is awfully stupid that, even w/ HUD reflection on the windshield, it requires your eyesight to check the way the well-designed conventional buttons/knobs don't.

The right way to design the the i-drive knob is to reshape it into something directional w/ permenant detents so your hand knows where exactly it's pointing to. This alone should solve the 1st half of operation ease.

Then perhaps having the whole knob moves for about an inch branching out to about 4 different directions, then rotate again. Sort of like the "H" pattern of manual shifter, except this can be a "*" pattern or something like that.

Maybe BMW should hire me in their R&D?

saugatak

If that were truly the case wouldn't Hyundai and Kia (even Ford and Chevy) be putting them in all of their cars? Surely these companies put a far greater effort in to cost cutting measures then BMW.

With all the negative press i'drive's gotten, they'd be truly dumb to put i-drive in their cars. They'll let BMW thrash out a few more generations of i-drive and see if the Germans can make it work.

Only when that happens will these other guys jump in and follow suit.

BMW is providing free R&D and guinea pig services for other car companies. Why mess with R&D cost of $0!

creakid, BMW might as well hire you to design their i-drive, b/c whoever they've hired to do it now has blown it.

jchan2

Good point. I'll bet if iDrive works out, the Japanese and the Koreans will toss it in their cars maybe 15 years from now.

m4d_cow

yeah i agree that i-drive is just plain BS, its good that its opitonal on the new 1, and hopefully itll be optional for the new 3 as well
creakid1: good idea, maybe we can get a better version of the dorky i-drive if bmw still insist on using it

harlequin1971

yes, that has been a long touted stereotype, the Germans Innovate, the Japanese re-engineer and the Americans hide behind rental fleets and incentives.

But, that is old news. US cars are making major improvements. German cars seem to be stuck a bit, at least in the "humane" side of the price tags (sub-$40k) and the Japanese have gotten a little soft, as a group. Used to be a time when the Civic and Corollas were so much ahead of the competition that one could laugh at anyone who bought anything else in the econobox race.

Used to be true of the Accord and Camry.

I don't think this is true anymore.

The BMW 1-series was a great concept car that has morphed into a re-hash of bad BMW design cues from the current crop. Sad, the "Mr. Winky" 5-series and the "Battlestar Gallactica" 7-series are not winning any hearts. Thankfully, their SUV designs are much better appreciated by the US buying public. That X3, even though I hate SUVs, is destined to be a huge hit.

The small, premium car market is here...enough US buyers exist to make it real. Rising gas prices and congested cities makes small an asset for a good share of drivers. The downside? Always something roomier and more luxurious at those precious pricepoints ($20-30k) to lure away the fringe buyers.

I agree about the roll of marketing. I am well aware of what image can do for sales.

that said, good cars get their dues. Infiniti was not a good example. Decent cars are a dime a dozen. Sometimes, good marketing can make decent cars a big hit. Bad marketing doesn't often bury a good car - look at SUVs. Full of bad marketing, but huge sales.

ateixeira

How well is the X3 doing compared to forecasts? I thought a lot of customers felt it was too close in price to the X5...

-juice

m4d_cow

depends, offroad capability is comparable to other suvs, but the downside is the choppy ride and some cheap looking interior. Id say so for the x5 if you really want a beemer suv, its not as roomy, but it sure have both offroad capability and a good ride

creakid1

Ditto the X3

ateixeira

How are they selling?

I've been inside an X3 but never driven one. Once you add a few desirable options the prices skyrocket.

-juice

harlequin1971

you guys are thinking like BMW owners...

Vehicles like the X3 will bring in new customers, the non-BMW crowd - those who might otherwise choose an XC90 or Touareg.

I haven't driven any of them...but for image conscious SUV owners, the X3 will have better appeal that either of the other two and still give them all that SUV-goodness.

Me, I am starting to seriously consider a kit car. Maybe a nice turnkey Speedster.

Would much rather have small and distinctive than a hulking SUV. That is why the 1-series was appealing at first site. That CS1 convert was very hot.

I like hatches, 3 of my last five cars have been hatches, but the BMW way of styling the hatch is ugly. Makes the 3-series wagons look beautiful in comparison.

Hatches should look better than wagons, what I have seen doesn't. But the truth is in the drive. A Blue and White propeller has to mean a good driving car here in the US...or it will not matter what it looks like.

Oh well. I will move along and haunt the 9-2x and A3 pages. BMW seems to be slipping off its pedestal...very sad indeed.

I guess there is always a used 323.

ateixeira

XC90 is a lot bigger than the X3, even the VW is, but I get your point about shopping for image.

Did you prefer the wagon? I thought it's longer proportions looked better than the hatch.

-juice

creakid1

"Vehicles like the X3 will bring in new customers, the non-BMW crowd - those who might otherwise choose an XC90 or Touareg."

I'm sure some past BMW owners who don't know how to drive BMWs would go for the X3/X5 just to join the SUV crowd around them.

When my Mercedes-salesman cousin started selling the ML SUV, he was embarrassed by its ride on the ripply I-10 FWY when customers took it for a test drive. To his surprise, the customers were still happy about the ride experience & bought the car!

jchan2

looked better to me. Thank god iDrive is OPTIONAL.

m4d_cow

amen to that
speaking of styling, even though its done by california design, its STILL BASED on bangles concept designs
take a look at the 1 series, taking styling cues from bangle's CS1
the 6 series, taking its shape from the Z9 concept car, also by bangle
i cant find any basics for the new 5 though
i used to dislike it but im starting to appreciate some of bangle's concept designs

saugatak

from edmunds boards, people are buying the 2.5s and not the 3.0 X3s.

jchan2

I have to wonder why. Must be those high premium fuel prices. I'm sure if the BMW 125i came along with better fuel economy than the 325i then BMW would attract more sales as people like me would choose a 125i or 130i over an Accord EX V6 or Saab 9-3 Linear.