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Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?



  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    Still, does that make the M3 a bad car? Nope. Most people would be proud to own either.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Posts: 200
    Exactly my Point. A pushrod LS6 in no way takes from the STS or CTS V. Its just a different philosophy of doing thing for Folks this side of the Atlantic. Its not like Guys In Deutschland have better tech than guys in Detroit....
    They both come prety close of doing the same thing with different approaches.

    The market decides who is better by voting with their €€ & $$
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    . . .from Cadillac. The only way to get the AWD version, currently, is at a price of over $62K.

    I think Cadillac has done a great thing with this new STS, don't get me wrong. But pricing the AWD version this way is confusing and disappointing.

    I'm back to looking at Acura's RL and Audi's A6.

    I'll keep checking here for the write up from the lucky folk who go "all the way!"

    For this kind of money, I could get an A8!
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Posts: 200
     "In fact, after driving several preproduction versions of the STS, we think Cadillac may have been saving the best for last. Unlike the previous Seville STS that lacked the refinement, performance and aesthetic appeal necessary to compete against the best from Europe and Japan, the 2005 STS (the Seville name has been dropped) is a slick-looking, no-excuses package that gives up nothing to its competition."
    Considering Audi is at the bottom of the pack in quality, why would anyone buy an Audi over a Cadillac?
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    We'll have to wait and see if the A6 boosts Audi's overall quality...
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    Just received my August issue of MT and there is a comparison test of the STS vs. E60 V8. Bimmer 'won' every performance category except braking; however, the MT editors liked the STS and said that overall, they would not pick a winner, as the two cars come at the lux/performance market from "different approaches". Interesting test. It will disappoint those who wanted the STS to kick the BMW's butt, but will make many happy to know that Cadillac is judged to have a car capable of competing with that marque. Worst news from the test: the "as tested" MSRP was $63,445 and that did NOT include AWD. Let's hope prices come down for actual production models, because those numbers will definitely scare off many buyers.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "Worst news from the test: the "as tested" MSRP was $63,445 and that did NOT include AWD."

    They also said that a 545i comparably equipped to the STS would have cost over $68K.... and that included a "jerky driveline" and "many minor annoyances".

    And you can't get AWD at any price.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Posts: 1,058
    how one mag likes the same thing another does not.

    MT say "manumatic shifter works backwards". And Car and Driver likes that forward shifts the car up.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "MT say "manumatic shifter works backwards". And Car and Driver likes that forward shifts the car up."

    I've seen 'em work sideways, too. I don't think there is a standard direction.

    Perhaps they were looking for something to quibble about since they didn't have much - the plushness of the carpet, the molded headliner.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    The problem with Caddy's pricing for the STS is that they DO NOT yet have the bondafides to run with the Bimmers, etc. If people can get by the styling, they are going to buy the E60s, no matter what, especially since BMWs continue to have bullet-proof resale values. We can't say this yet for Caddy, where years of rebates and discounts have made the value drop like a brick as it rolls off the dealer's lot. While we have not yet seen the STS at dealerships, in my humble opinion, Cadillac will make a HUGE mistake if they try to go straight out of the chute to compete with the established German marques on price. They need to undercut them initially until they are accepted, and also unbundled some of the options so that people can get a decent STS without buy stuff they don't want. Lexus did this in 1989 with the LS400, and look at them now.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "The problem with Caddy's pricing for the STS is that they DO NOT yet have the bondafides to run with the Bimmers, etc."

    Right... the CTS just got done whipping the low end 5-Series in a Road and Track comparo and the SRX is #1 at both Automobile (along with the CTS-V) and Car and Driver. Cadillac's got more than what it takes to run with them.

    "If people can get by the styling" "

    Big if.

    "they are going to buy the E60s, no matter what."

    These new BMW's are not as good as their predecessors... and this is happening just as strong competition is being released. They're vulnerable - and lack of AWD definitely makes the E60 an also-ran here in the snow belt.

    "Cadillac will make a HUGE mistake if they try to go straight out of the chute to compete with the established German marques on price."

    Yeah, this tired old argument comes out with every new Cadillac, first the CTS, then the XLR and SRX. And Cadillac's sales keep going up, even as "traditional" Cadillacs (the ones that do sell on price) are being phased out.
  • theo2709theo2709 Posts: 476
    Cadillac tried the high pricing with the SRX. Failed.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "Cadillac tried the high pricing with the SRX. Failed."

    Not true. The problem was that there were too many of the V8's and not enough V6's. Now that they've got the model mix right, the SRX is selling quite well. They can sell the high priced V8's... they just can't make MOSTLY V8's.

    I talked to one of my local dealers about this. He told me he will be getting plenty of V6 STS right away. They've learned from the SRX and Cadillac will not be making the model mix mistake again.

    That's true of just about everyone. The lower priced versions sell in higher numbers, not the other way around, which is how Cadillac initially released the SRX resulting in a slow start.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    since you have all the answers, and everyone else is wrong, I'll leave the debate to you, but would only say most on this board want Cadillac to succeed. We just hope that their pricing and marketing strategy allows that to happen, and right now, quite a few people have some doubts.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "everyone else is wrong"

    I guess "everyone else" must include Car & Driver, Road & Track and Automobile.

    And those who compile sales statistics, who now list Cadillac #3 (they've passed MB, who had a 7% sales lead on Cadillac as recently as 2002) and gaining on #2 BMW.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The STS is not overpriced by any means. Why do people think that cadillac should have to compete on value? No one complains about the E-class of 5 series being overpriced and they are both more expensive than the STS if all cars are comparably equipped. A loaded 545 will run you about $70K and it doesnt have AWD. The previous STS and DTS both went up to about $56K-$57K fully loaded. They both had incentives because they are older models but the bottom line is that they werent that far from $60K and the '05 STS is clearly better than both of them. Many people said the CTS and SRX were overpriced ut they seem to be meeting or exceeding expectations. The projected volume for the SRX was only about 30K units a year. Now that the V6 and V8 models are on the dealer lots it seems to be exceeding those projections slightly. Plus the XLR costs $76K and the Escalade Platinum costs $70K. Give me a break people. Cadillac is no longer interested in trying to attract buyers baased on sticker prices alone.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    Here's an article that explains the early SRX situation. 179
    Similar 70/30 V6 to V8 model mix for the STS will mean success.
  • theo2709theo2709 Posts: 476
    True, but the reason they only produced V8s really was because they thought everyone wanted to buy a Cadillac with V8s and tons of options. They have learned in time for the STS.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    The SRX is hardly out of the woods.
    I still feel it is about $1700-2000K overpriced.
    Incentives were applied to it quickly, unlike the CTS.
    Sales bombed in June.
    After selling more and more each month they only sold 2,000 in June. A awful performance when you consider they have been building them at a rate of
    1,000 per week.
    In the last few weeks I have noticed that production has dropped to 700 per week.
    I think the STS will do very well but steal sales from the CTS.
    Quite a few base STSs will be sold.
    I own a base SRX V6.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Posts: 200
    One thing you are all forgetting is that the Germans cannot compete with Cadillac on quality and that is one thing going for Cadillac, and if one can get all the tech wizardry without the dealer visits, that works for cadillac.

    But most people I have known (like my boss) suffer in silence after buying benzes and never go back after the lease expires. Now he drives a Lexus LS, another one of my colleagues got rid of his audi A4 went to a Benz CLK, and within two years has moved to Acura.
    The A4 Turbos died, the MB was a fired up electronics that kept being worked on, and now there is peace of mind with Acura.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
  • cadman88cadman88 Posts: 75
    I believe that one reason June sales may have been low is because GM had "dealer auctions" with SRXs. These SRXs were GM executive vehicles/demos/etc. with relatively low miles (under 1000).

    My dealer is relatively small (normally they have about 5 CTSs on the lot, about 5 SRXs as well) and they went to this auction and brought back two FULLY LOADED SRX V8s. Both had ~500 miles on them, and both were about $48,000, or $10,000 less than a new SRX with the same options. There were dealers from Chicago there that took many of the ones that were for auction.

    I'm guessing that if my dealer took two of them the ones in Chicago probably took 15+, and I'm sure most buyers would buy the slightly used SRXs and save 10 grand.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    I'm not sure I buy the argument that the STS is too expensive. I might have until you start learning what it costs to get comparable 545i and E500 models. Those guys are way expensive and Cadillac seems to have a comparable story here. The STS is also $5000 cheaper as a base car compared to the older Seville, but that car didn't have a V6 as an starter.

    The key will be product mix. Cadillac learned the hard way that the car business is not like Apple building Macintosh computers where often at product launch, the most expensive models go quickly right out of the gate. I'm starting to see a lot more SRXs on the road now, most with V6 engines. The STS has 6(!) different major options groups, and I'm sure that a lot of attention has been paid to the modeling of what gets sent to the dealers early, with any needed changes at a moment's notice.

    Finally, Cadillac is still trying to find it's new street cred footing with the competition, but I think I'm starting to see a pattern: close but slightly more aggressive in styling, performance and handling than Mercedes. They will give up the raw performance figures to BMW (so does Mercedes) on the normal models and then compete with them squarely in the V-series. I thinkk the performance numbers may improve a bit with the 6 speed trany due in 2006, but GM needs a 7 speed slushbox to compete with Mercedes/BMW now.
  • volvodan1volvodan1 Posts: 196
    The SRX on the new side has certainly taken a hit because of the program cars that are out there. I just sold one for 38-39K w/2900 miles (V8, 3rd row, etc.). The customer was just strolling through and looked at the V8's on our lot for 50-51K. They had checked Rainiers for $40Kish and to buy the SRX w/ Certified 6yr/100K mile warranty was a no brainer. They were leaning towards the Caddy anyway, but that sealed the deal. I don't think there will be a ton more (obviously nothing like Seville/Deville program/rentals.)

    The STS will be interesting because it is a player according to the auto mags but will it catch on? I think it will. Like most cars, the "as tested" price is high, buy that is not what matters. They buy the $45K car but "it does everything the $65,000 car does, pretty much". A vast majority of these will be sold in the $50K dollar range. The high price is because there are more options (adaptive cruise,AWD, etc.) They will keep the 70/30 mix and it will be successful.

    BTW, Eaton seems pretty close on a lot of his observations.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    Audi consistently is ranked very highly from a "quality" perspective. Audi, too, often ranks very highly or "in the top class" of performance and safety.

    What I, and many others, lament is the low "reliability" of many of the German brands (Audi included). I agree that reliability is important, but some of the most reliable cars I have ever owned were of very poor quality. Recent Audis consistently are lauded with praise by most of the "Car" magazines.

    The Cadillac, fine as it may be, does not yet have the je ne sais quois that even Audi, BMW and Mercedes have despite their less than stellar reliability (but high quality) ratings.

    Hence, my comment something like, "in a world where I made the rules, the new STS would be priced much more aggressively (a la Lexus in the early days) -- in the same vein as Chryco priced the the 300C aggressively) perhaps unbundling some of the options, too."

    Please don't think I believe the STS should be priced THE SAME AS a Chrysler 300C, it is just that several of the reviews of the 300C (at about $36K) have suggested that the 300C "feels like" a $45K car. The $62,500 version of the STS if it were brought to an MSRP of $55K would (or should) roll off the showroom floor and put the fear in some of the German and Japanese high lux nameplates. Then, like Lexus, price could be brought up to "content" "equivalency."

    The STS, at this point, for ME, seems like too much money (but part of the reason is that I want the AWD version, and it just seems over the top to bundle the option groups so that the only way to get such an STS is to opt for the over $60,000 MSRP.)

    That is, uh, IMHO, "unfortunate."
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Posts: 200
     The only flaw I have seen among magazines in the STS interior quality is the plastics around the radio. If one wants to pick at the little things in a car, there is plenty in any car…
    STS is praised for offering the same level of technology as the German cars, without having to retrain people how to drive and interface with the car… like the famous idrive and Audi… ease of use is key….to technological interface, that is what Microsoft windows is all about( Making it easy for Joe to work on a computer without attending MIT..), idrive has not done anything good for BMW in the NA market, I do not know about Europe.
    I do not know how one can speak of quality without including reliability as one aspect of quality…..The Deutschmobiles are no where near GM especially Buick and Cadillac…. In reliability
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "it is just that several of the reviews of the 300C (at about $36K) have suggested that the 300C "feels like" a $45K car."

    I've actually driven the 300C, SRX and CTS. The 300C is really fast in a straight line, but it suffers from a weight problem and can't touch the Caddys in their athleticism.

    In short, the 300C is a one dimensional modern day muscle car, whereas the Caddys are the complete package. I expect the STS to be the most complete package of all and well worth the premium over a 300C.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    In no way was I comparing the actual cars to each other (the Cadillac and the Chrysler) -- simply the pricing at the "market entry point."

    I do not think the cars are comparable, I meant only to suggest a pricing scheme that would allow me to opt for an STS V8, and click off MagnaRide and AWD and perhaps some sound system options without going for the full-on $13,000 option bundle. Moreover, I meant to suggest that although Cadillac has made great strides in its products in the past few years, that the cars still on the showroom floor with the badge STS, etc, are not likely to attract those who are driving enthusiasts -- the need, I was suggesting, was to price the cars "not based on where they are going or soon will be, but where they are likely perceived to be at this juncture."

    The Germans, crappy quality or reliability or whatever term we may settle on, are "perceived" by many to be of the highest quality (separate from reliability, I'm afraid to say) -- few American cars have achieved this -- although wait fifteen minutes and, well, the tide (the perception) is changing.

    I am rooting for Cadillac, indeed, I am rooting for American automobiles of all ilks. The fact that I even considered the new STS was something that even two years ago I would never have done.

    Now, however, I find a pricing and bundling scheme that seems a bit presumptuous -- and premature.

    Like most of what is written here, it is just an opinion.

    Finally, although I agree that "a" component of quality "ought" (normative) to be reliability, it seems -- to read Car, Car and Driver, and the rest, that it rarely is.

    I certainly hope that, at the very least, it will be possible to so configure a new STS so that one does not have to "order everything" just to get AWD.

    But that's just me, apparently.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "I meant only to suggest a pricing scheme that would allow me to opt for an STS V8, and click off MagnaRide and AWD."

    I absolutely agree. AWD, Magnaride and a sunroof should be stand alone options, available no matter what else you get.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,025
    Let's be careful about veering into arguments based on subjective comparisons, especially when no one on this board can provide first-hand ownership experience yet!


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