Enough. Enough challenging each other, enough debate on engine types (there are other discussions about this), enough debating other makes/models. Further posts along this line will be deleted.
This discussion is for members to exchange information about the STS, not to debate the merits of GM. If you're not interested in the STS or Cadillac in general, you're probably in the wrong discussion.
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While I was test driving a SRX last Friday I sat in a '04 SLS. Correction, I tried to sit in a SLS. One of the few cars built in the World that I couldn't get comfortable in. My legs were in the knee bolsters. I have never sat in a full size car with so little room.
Hoping the new STS has at least as much front legroom as the CTS. Because the G chassis has been a failure. The Bonneville, Aurora, Lesabre, Park Avenue all took a step backward when that new chassis came out 4-5 years ago. The lack of interior room in those cars is appalling. And their sales figures have been appalling too.
"Tennis, I've driven DTSs and STSs around a road course and they torque steered only in extreme situations. You obviously haven't had much seat time so I won't even respond to your nonsense."
Nonsense??? How is saying that a car has torque steer obvious??? You just say things like "nonsense" to cover up the fact that you're wrong and can't admit that some cars in this world are not as good as you think they are.
"The SRX has already received many accolades -ranked #1 in Consumer Reports (can you believe that?!?!), best luxury SUV in C&D and best luxury SUV in Money magazine."
It's also the Automobile All-Star in the Midsize SUV category. The STS is the sedan version of the SRX and ought to address the main complaint - the use of the CTS dashboard (although I'm not complaining). It should be a bit lighter than the SRX. Those 2 things will make it an even greater vehicle.
I expect the SRX to get the STS dash before too long.
You're telling me that I'm only listening to what C/D says!?! I've rented an 01 Seville STS when on vacation and I can PLAINLY tell you that there is some apparent torque steer when accelerating to gain speed for the highway. All I'm saying is that FWD is not as good as you think it is. But, I'll choose it over RWD if I lived in the snowbelt...
Why do I insist that the LS6 is probably the most advanced engine in the world?
1. Its Simple in Design 2. Developed - Designed and Built from the Ground up in 2001 3. Most efficiency engine in Bang for the Buck and Fuel economy 4. three-way catalyst air injection reaction 5. sequential fuel injection in LS6 Vs. Direct Injection in your BMW V12 6. hydraulic roller Valve lifters 7. All Aluminum Block Just like the Bemmier V12 8. The most sophisticated engine Control System in the industry designed to Reduce Vibration associated with Pushrod engines. 9. Thermoplastic intake manifold – Does the BMW V12 Have that? 10. drive-by-wire electronic throttle Just like The Bemier 11. BMW V12 HP- 438 LS6 HP-405 on the –BMW HP # Advantage for 4 Extra Cylinders (Read Toyota Corolla Engine as extra useless Weight) 33HP 12. EPA Mileage Estimates BMW V12- 15 mpg / 23 mpg Z06 19 mpg / 28 mpg 13. Torque: 400 ft-lbs BMW V12 444 ft-lbs Difference =44-For 4 Cylinders
My point Give GM engineers a V12 and they will squeeze 800 HP out of it.
Show me another engine with such #’s and I will show you a more advanced engine. Many moving parts and software algorithms are not a measure of advancement. I tell you a BMW V12 engine is technologically inferior to an LS6. No matter what BMW Marketing and European car Magazines tell you.
You have 13 factual Items to refute that assertion.
The first thing I must say is that after seeing the pics of the "new" A6 I am excited about the STS. The 5 series, and now A6, do not appear to have what it takes to be all around leaders in this class. The E-class is probably the best thing going right now but it's pricing is ridiculous. Of course, people like Merc1 would dispute that because MB's aura is worth every penny. I disagree and I think the STS will be a nice alternative to the overpriced E-class.
I am confused about a few things, one being the fact that people keep bringing up all of GM's technological deficiencies when this topic is supposed to be about the new STS. Another thing I don't get is the bragging about the 6 speeds used in Audi, Jag and BMW products. It's nice to have a six speed but those manufacturers all bought their trannies from a supplier, namely ZF. Ford, BMW and VW do not design or manufacture their own 6 speed autos so they really haven't accomplished much of anything other than writing some big checks. GM could have purchased 6 speeds and maybe they should have, but when they debut their new trannies they will represent GM's own money and engineering. The whole argument over the number of cogs is silly because the real world benefits of 6 speed vs 4 speeds are minimal. GM's new 6 speed FWD tranny is only going to yield a 5% increase in fuel economy over their current 4 speeds. Not something the average driver is going to notice. The next argument will be that engines cannot be fully exploited with old 4 or 5 speeds. Wrong again, the Vette is a good example of this. The C5 was about .2-.3 secs slower than the 6 speed manual with an auto, again the difference is negligable. The same truth applies to the GTO. While a good 6 speed will cut down on gear hunting and help milk the best performance out of an engine when compared to an average 4/5 speed auto, it has minimal advantages over a well designed, smooth shifting 4 speed. GM needs more cogs to keep up in terms of advertising, but owners won't be able to feel the difference in terms of performance or fuel savings. I doubt MBs 7 speed will offer any real world advantages over a good 5 speed or 6 speed, but it will give them bragging rights and something to take our minds off their average quality. When your Benz is in the shop at least you will know you have more cogs in your auto than everyone else.
merc,
You can't even get the facts about your favorite German cars right and yet you want us to take your word about Caddys. You are way off on so many fronts that one doesn't really have time to reason with you. It amazes me that the same guy who has lambasted cadillac for producing low quality, soft riding, underpowered cars has no problem with MB and BMW producing overpriced, low quality, overly complex cars. In the past you ranted about cadillac resorting to electronic crutches and useless gizmos and now your beloved German brands are knee deep in malfunctioning electronic doodads and user interfaces that add no value to the driver. You used to say that cadillac should stop worrying about gimmicks and learn how to make a proper RWD car, now I think its safe to say you should give BMW and MB that same advice. It baffles me that people like you will waste so much time blasting GM for being behind the times when the cars you love dont offer the reliability of a Corolla. Do you really think that 6 speed autos, ABC, Sensotronic, iDrive, etc. is more important than reliability and solid ergonomics? What good is all that space age crap if the car is constantly at the dealer? Maybe, just maybe, GM is concentrating on producing high quality cars and components instead of trying to beat everyone to the punch with unwanted, unproven gadgets. I have read a number of posts here and I have yet to see what your issue with the STS really is, you have talked about everything but the topic at hand. Again, what do GM's four speed autos have to do with the '05 STS?
What's so bad about BMWs, Jaguars, Audis, and MBs again?? Heck, people buying a large luxury car have enough money to pay the extra bucks for those German cars! Plus, most of them are in it for the "prestige factor". Cadillac still isn't one of the most prestigious around the globe yet. If a person is in a Cadillac people look, but when a person is in a German car (BMW, MB) people STARE. They're just that prestigious and it's going to take a couple of more years until Caddy has that exact reputation.
Last warning - this discussion will be CLOSED if the hostility and personal remarks don't stop, and if the discussion doesn't veer back on-topic. There's a very strong hint in the discussion title.
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Uses GM Trannies in all cars except the 7 series. Has been for years. The STS will have the same tranny in a BMW. It belongs there. Its a GM tranny.
I do not understand how people can question American technological superiority. GM has more money, and More research centers around the globe in places some Automakers like DC and MB have nothing.
That seemed to be the implication. Germans cars can have their prestige. However, the perception of quality is turning out to be just that, a perception. Check out the E class or 7 series topics. The STS could come at no better time. While owners of E500s are struggling with the electronic headaches that '90s Cadillac's offered, hopefully owners will now have a better choice in the STS. One good thing about being an underdog is that you have to over do it just to get recognized. When you're on top, you get lazy and cocky. Just like the tortoise and the hare.
I'm not sure what determines prestige to some folks but Cadillac has plenty of prestige. Amongst younger folks CAdillac's image is surpassed only by exotics, Bentleys, Maybachs and maybe MBs. That's about it. Watch Cribs and check out the videos, you wont find a Jag (except an occasional XKR) or Audi anywhere. Of course much of this is due to the Escalade but I have also seen Devilles and now that the XLR is out I have seen it in a video. I'm sure the stars will have them in their driveways soon. Lexus, Jag and Audi are barely on the radar of younger people these days. The Escalade has done more for CAdillac's image than anyone could have imagined.
I'm talking about the public's view on prestige, not rappers, thugs, and people in Hollywood. I know Cadillac has prestige, but not as to the likes of say a MB. There are more people out there who collect classic MBs than Caddys. I've been to some of those German Car Auctions and they have a lot of early 90s MBs too. Cadillac was one of the best, until GM slipped up with defects and bad quality control. Thankfully, that's under control now (for the most part) and soon (maybe 2 years) Cadillac may even be superior to MB or BMW! Right now, they're considered as prestigious as a Volvo, Saab, Infiniti, or Acura. Even you have to admit MB is more prestigious considering that they make the S-Class, G-Wagon, and Maybach.
I can agree with most of what you say. Yes, Cadillac's quality slipped in the 70s and 80s, and they have been going in the right direction the past ten years. I would also argue that MB and BMW have gone the wrong way on the quality scale over the past decade. If MB and BMW don't get their act together with respect to quality, they'll end up right where Cadillac was ten years ago. It's not as if building a complex, but reliable car is impossible. Just look at Lexus and Infiniti. They're not perfect -- no car maker is -- but they manage to build complex cars that break down less than any other make.
As for prestige, well, I personally think it's overrated. These days, I'll take reliability over prestige any day of the week. But that's just me. If I were seriously concerned about what the people at the mall thought of me, I guess I'd skip the aforementioned makes altogether -- they're a dime a dozen in places like SoCal and the Big Apple. Bentley, Rolls or Aston Martin: Now THAT's prestige.
I think the STS will offer the right combination of size, performance, and style to satisfy it's target market. If sales are a measure of what separates the "good" cars from the "bad", then Lexus and Cadillac cannot be ignored. If I'm not mistaken, I believe I read that Cadillac's sales were up 28% last year. Not bad. CTS sales exceeded projections by a wide margin, so somebody must like Caddy's new edgy style. I know I do.
markhampton's comments. Give me reliability too. A Jag may be considered prestigious, but how much prestige is there when the thing is on the auto rack?
Granted, quality is improving almost across the board (there are exceptions). Regardless of what people think of Cadillac, I've enjoyed driving one. When I travel to see my son in school, we get the Seville STS (older generation) and it rides nice. We don't push it or try to do any slaloms, but for the driving we do, it is very comfortable.
When Cadillac adds the performance to the luxury that I've been feeling, they'll have a winner. I haven't looked at the CTS at all (I'm NOT a fan of the lines), I'm hoping that the STS will be a mix of the new CTS and old Seville lines. Crisper, but not too crisp. Know what I mean? The interior shots have been nice.
But having the perfectly styled, balanced, and performing car doesn't mean squat if reliability isn't there. If the reliability is close, the dealer/service experience needs to be a step above what others are doing.
My BMW 325xi has been excellent, except for a little computer hiccup 2 months after I got it. Once fixed, it has been flawless. Any minor nits I have had have been addressed by the dealer.
Now don't get me started on the 5 or 7 series though.
Amen! I'm all for reliability and price! I was just telling him about why some people still continue to buy BMWs, MBs, Jags, and more..."prestige factor" :-\ Heck, most people spending 50K have enough extra money to cough up to buy that "prestige". Weird, but it happens. If the STS looks good in the side and back and has superb specs...I'll be first in line!
CAdillac on the same level as Acura and Volvo? Are you serious? If you look at Caddy's prices and model lineup there is no comparison with those lower brands. Cadillac is competing with Lexus, MB and BMW. That's about it, Lincoln and the other imports are on a lower level in terms of prices and product range. Volvo and Acura are not highly sought after by young people, they are seen as nice cars that dont offer much styling or panache. While it may be nice to think people don't care about what "thugs" and hollywood types buy, the truth is they are the trend setters. I have seen middle aged white guys driving SUVs sitting on large chrome rims. They didn't pick that up at the country club. Now the manufacturers are making extra large rims available from the factory. It's a trend that started in the hood and with import tuner types, but now it is mainstream. The same goes for Cadillacs, they may be in all the videos, but their sales are increasing in the ghetto and in the burbs. I see plenty of conservative white guys driving Escalades and EXTs.
Acura not having styling?? Two letters: TL. I know lots of highschoolers who'd love to own an Acura. They're not as bland as Lexus, but not as cool-looking as Infiniti. FYI, I have many friends who drive Slades with 20" rims and that's cool. They like it, and I like it for the most part. But in terms of the MOST PRESTIGIOUS, MB cannot be beat. It's just their legacy. Most people at the local country club usually drive MBs, but there is also a lot of Slades, CTS sedans, Volvos, Beemers, and Acuras. How is Lincoln lower than Cadillac? If I'm not mistaken, aren't they competing directly with each other? CTS to LS, Navigator to Escalade, Town Car to Deville...right?
"I have seen middle aged white guys driving SUVs sitting on large chrome rims. They didn't pick that up at the country club. Now the manufacturers are making extra large rims available from the factory. It's a trend that started in the hood and with import tuner types, but now it is mainstream."
Point?? What does that have to do with what I said??
"I think Acura is a player, especially since they have the MDX and TL."
Sure, compared to Volvo. The MDX is so respected that it's not even included in comparos with the SRX, because the testers know it's not in the SRX league. And so it will be with Acuras vs. the STS.
When Acura builds a proper RWD sports sedan, then they're a player... something with a V8 would be nice, too.
Cadillacs are more expensive than Acuras, but you'd never guess it by looking at their interiors. The TSX and TL have much better finished interiors than the CTS. Heck, the Accord EX has a higher quality interior than the CTS. It's the same with the MDX versus the SRX.
Right now, that is Cadillac's major weakness. They got the chassis and drivetrains right...now they need to give those interiors a major makeover.
I do not see how you could compare an LS to CTS. LS went up aganist Catera. After the Catera was dropped It was left alone looking for competation. Lincoln has always been unable to find a place btw Buick and Cadillac to fight its battles. Mercury has never been a contender. At least not in the 90's. They (mercuries) are just Ford XLE's (read Camry top of the range XLE with Leather)
By the way. It looks very much like the outgoing 7 Series BMW 7 Series
LS
Lincoln has no CTS equivalent. The LS is a good car but its in a class of its own.
That is beside the point. The LS does not measure up to the outgoing SLS, STS with Northstar. The LS is in my opinion a better car than the outgoing STS, SLS, (Deu to RWD) but that is still not the point. The point is that the LS is a 3 Series wanna be
mbukukanyau: I know the LS can't even start to compete with the CTS, but people think so and they would cross-shop the two. LS is very outdated too.
eaton53: I wonder how the STS will stack up against the upcoming RL. Rumor has it the RL will have a 300HP V6, a hybrid V6, and maybe an optional V8. Whew, this segment is tough!!!
Wait, what's the difference??? I thought the RL will stay below or around 50K..just like the 5-series and E-Class. The TL competes with the 3-series, CTS, C-Class, etc...so I'm guessing it's only logical that the RL competes with the 5-series, E-Class, STS, etc. Hey, I maybe wrong!!
300hp minimal for this class?? Sure when put up against the V8s, but I'm talking about the V6 base engine. The STS will only make around 255HP. Plus, to compete with the V8s, Honda is probably going to add a V8 or a hybrid V6 (the latter one is more likely). Plus, it's going to have AWD optional too.
The new RL will not measure up to the heavy hitters. It will be the only FWD based AWD car in the segment other than the A6. Besides that V8s do count for something in spite of Honda's arrogance. Why do you think they added a V8 to the A6 three years ago? You need the V8 on this level even if your V6 offers a lot of power. Besides, if the RL's engine is like most Honda high powered V6s it is going come up short in torque.
I just stopped by my Cadillac dealer Saturday to see if they had any price info on the new STS. He said not yet, but expected it in April after the NY Auto Show Intro. He said he could take orders at that time, with first deliveries possibly as soon as June. An interesting point he made is that Cadillac Division informed dealers that they are re aligning the cars where CTS is entry level, STS is mid-level, and Deville the flagship, at least until an even more upscale line appears a few years down the road (Fleetwood?) He points out that STS will be available with a V6, but not Deville. He also claims Mr. Lutz wants Cadillac to emulate Mercedes where their biggest car is always the flagship car, excluding specialty cars like the SL600 or XLR.
... is interesting, and somewhat at odds from what I've read in the automotive press. It's often been reported that the STS will become the "New Cadillac" flagship while they aren't 100% sure what to do with the DeVille long term, for now keeping it FWD and, along with the Escalade, focus more on "traditional" American buyers and shift the rest of the line to the "international" A&S. Certainly, if they want the DeVille to be the S-Class of their line, FWD on the older platform won't cut it, but I'm sure (hope?) they know that.
Deville 'Classic' or 'Heritage' and move on to a RWD new platform for the DTS S Class Flagship... by now Cadillac should already be looking at 2006 for an all New DTS V12 Launch if they are serious
Here's an email I got from Caddi today on the STS:
You asked to receive information about the all-new 2005 Cadillac STS as it becomes available, and your Cadillac Concierge is pleased to provide it for you. You interest is welcome and not surprising. The 2005 STS is, after all, the much-anticipated flagship of the Cadillac line.
Naturally, in creating this new sedan from the ground up, quality and craftsmanship were paramount. To that end, the craftsman who were carefully selected to create the 2005 STS are leaders in their field, recognized for their knowledge, experience, and passion.
Why the best and the brightest? Simply because the 2005 Cadillac STS was designed with the most demanding specifications of any sedan in Cadillac's history. The STS sets a new Cadillac standard with its level of fit and finish, fine-crafted appearance, and overall quality.
No detail was too small for the scrutiny of the Cadillac craftsman. From the appropriateness of the rich wood grains to the softness of the Milan carpets. From lighting performance to gloss levels to the aroma of the available Tuscany leather. From the quality of the available Bose® audio acoustics to the character of the exhaust note.
The overall result, as you'll see at the official unveiling at the New York Auto Show in April, is nothing short of spectacular.
The world awaits the most finely crafted Cadillac sedan we've ever built. And when you see it, touch it, and drive it when it becomes available this fall, we suspect you'll want us to build one for you.
My understanding is that the STS will be the flagship for now, with a larger RWD sedan to come. Details on the large sedan are still fairly sketchy, except that the styling should be based on the 16.
I also believe that the Deville will soldier on relatively unchanged until something like 2009, to appeal to the current Cadillac crowd. I think that is smart, build cars to compete with the best and keep one around for traditional sales.
Comments
This discussion is for members to exchange information about the STS, not to debate the merits of GM. If you're not interested in the STS or Cadillac in general, you're probably in the wrong discussion.
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Correction, I tried to sit in a SLS.
One of the few cars built in the World that I couldn't get comfortable in.
My legs were in the knee bolsters.
I have never sat in a full size car with so little room.
Hoping the new STS has at least as much front legroom as the CTS.
Because the G chassis has been a failure. The Bonneville, Aurora, Lesabre, Park Avenue all took a step backward when that new chassis came out 4-5 years ago.
The lack of interior room in those cars is appalling.
And their sales figures have been appalling too.
Nonsense??? How is saying that a car has torque steer obvious??? You just say things like "nonsense" to cover up the fact that you're wrong and can't admit that some cars in this world are not as good as you think they are.
It's also the Automobile All-Star in the Midsize SUV category. The STS is the sedan version of the SRX and ought to address the main complaint - the use of the CTS dashboard (although I'm not complaining). It should be a bit lighter than the SRX. Those 2 things will make it an even greater vehicle.
I expect the SRX to get the STS dash before too long.
1. Its Simple in Design
2. Developed - Designed and Built from the Ground up in 2001
3. Most efficiency engine in Bang for the Buck and Fuel economy
4. three-way catalyst air injection reaction
5. sequential fuel injection in LS6 Vs. Direct Injection in your BMW V12
6. hydraulic roller Valve lifters
7. All Aluminum Block Just like the Bemmier V12
8. The most sophisticated engine Control System in the industry designed to Reduce Vibration associated with Pushrod engines.
9. Thermoplastic intake manifold – Does the BMW V12 Have that?
10. drive-by-wire electronic throttle Just like The Bemier
11. BMW V12 HP- 438 LS6 HP-405 on the –BMW HP # Advantage for 4 Extra Cylinders (Read Toyota Corolla Engine as extra useless Weight) 33HP
12. EPA Mileage Estimates BMW V12- 15 mpg / 23 mpg Z06 19 mpg / 28 mpg
13. Torque: 400 ft-lbs BMW V12 444 ft-lbs Difference =44-For 4 Cylinders
My point Give GM engineers a V12 and they will squeeze 800 HP out of it.
Show me another engine with such #’s and I will show you a more advanced engine. Many moving parts and software algorithms are not a measure of advancement.
I tell you a BMW V12 engine is technologically inferior to an LS6. No matter what BMW Marketing and European car Magazines tell you.
You have 13 factual Items to refute that assertion.
I am confused about a few things, one being the fact that people keep bringing up all of GM's technological deficiencies when this topic is supposed to be about the new STS. Another thing I don't get is the bragging about the 6 speeds used in Audi, Jag and BMW products. It's nice to have a six speed but those manufacturers all bought their trannies from a supplier, namely ZF. Ford, BMW and VW do not design or manufacture their own 6 speed autos so they really haven't accomplished much of anything other than writing some big checks. GM could have purchased 6 speeds and maybe they should have, but when they debut their new trannies they will represent GM's own money and engineering. The whole argument over the number of cogs is silly because the real world benefits of 6 speed vs 4 speeds are minimal. GM's new 6 speed FWD tranny is only going to yield a 5% increase in fuel economy over their current 4 speeds. Not something the average driver is going to notice. The next argument will be that engines cannot be fully exploited with old 4 or 5 speeds. Wrong again, the Vette is a good example of this. The C5 was about .2-.3 secs slower than the 6 speed manual with an auto, again the difference is negligable. The same truth applies to the GTO. While a good 6 speed will cut down on gear hunting and help milk the best performance out of an engine when compared to an average 4/5 speed auto, it has minimal advantages over a well designed, smooth shifting 4 speed. GM needs more cogs to keep up in terms of advertising, but owners won't be able to feel the difference in terms of performance or fuel savings. I doubt MBs 7 speed will offer any real world advantages over a good 5 speed or 6 speed, but it will give them bragging rights and something to take our minds off their average quality. When your Benz is in the shop at least you will know you have more cogs in your auto than everyone else.
merc,
You can't even get the facts about your favorite German cars right and yet you want us to take your word about Caddys. You are way off on so many fronts that one doesn't really have time to reason with you. It amazes me that the same guy who has lambasted cadillac for producing low quality, soft riding, underpowered cars has no problem with MB and BMW producing overpriced, low quality, overly complex cars. In the past you ranted about cadillac resorting to electronic crutches and useless gizmos and now your beloved German brands are knee deep in malfunctioning electronic doodads and user interfaces that add no value to the driver. You used to say that cadillac should stop worrying about gimmicks and learn how to make a proper RWD car, now I think its safe to say you should give BMW and MB that same advice. It baffles me that people like you will waste so much time blasting GM for being behind the times when the cars you love dont offer the reliability of a Corolla. Do you really think that 6 speed autos, ABC, Sensotronic, iDrive, etc. is more important than reliability and solid ergonomics? What good is all that space age crap if the car is constantly at the dealer? Maybe, just maybe, GM is concentrating on producing high quality cars and components instead of trying to beat everyone to the punch with unwanted, unproven gadgets. I have read a number of posts here and I have yet to see what your issue with the STS really is, you have talked about everything but the topic at hand. Again, what do GM's four speed autos have to do with the '05 STS?
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The STS will have the same tranny in a BMW.
mbukukanyau, I did respond to your post in a engine topic concerning BMW.
merc1 "Who makes better engines, BMW or Honda?" Feb 19, 2004 1:52am
M
The STS will have the same tranny in a BMW. It belongs there. Its a GM tranny.
I do not understand how people can question American technological superiority. GM has more money, and More research centers around the globe in places some Automakers like DC and MB have nothing.
That doesn't mean the STS has no prestige too. Cadillac is very prestigious, but not yet up to the likes of the Germans yet.
I can agree with most of what you say. Yes, Cadillac's quality slipped in the 70s and 80s, and they have been going in the right direction the past ten years. I would also argue that MB and BMW have gone the wrong way on the quality scale over the past decade. If MB and BMW don't get their act together with respect to quality, they'll end up right where Cadillac was ten years ago. It's not as if building a complex, but reliable car is impossible. Just look at Lexus and Infiniti. They're not perfect -- no car maker is -- but they manage to build complex cars that break down less than any other make.
As for prestige, well, I personally think it's overrated. These days, I'll take reliability over prestige any day of the week. But that's just me. If I were seriously concerned about what the people at the mall thought of me, I guess I'd skip the aforementioned makes altogether -- they're a dime a dozen in places like SoCal and the Big Apple. Bentley, Rolls or Aston Martin: Now THAT's prestige.
I think the STS will offer the right combination of size, performance, and style to satisfy it's target market. If sales are a measure of what separates the "good" cars from the "bad", then Lexus and Cadillac cannot be ignored. If I'm not mistaken, I believe I read that Cadillac's sales were up 28% last year. Not bad. CTS sales exceeded projections by a wide margin, so somebody must like Caddy's new edgy style. I know I do.
Granted, quality is improving almost across the board (there are exceptions). Regardless of what people think of Cadillac, I've enjoyed driving one. When I travel to see my son in school, we get the Seville STS (older generation) and it rides nice. We don't push it or try to do any slaloms, but for the driving we do, it is very comfortable.
When Cadillac adds the performance to the luxury that I've been feeling, they'll have a winner. I haven't looked at the CTS at all (I'm NOT a fan of the lines), I'm hoping that the STS will be a mix of the new CTS and old Seville lines. Crisper, but not too crisp. Know what I mean? The interior shots have been nice.
But having the perfectly styled, balanced, and performing car doesn't mean squat if reliability isn't there. If the reliability is close, the dealer/service experience needs to be a step above what others are doing.
My BMW 325xi has been excellent, except for a little computer hiccup 2 months after I got it. Once fixed, it has been flawless. Any minor nits I have had have been addressed by the dealer.
Now don't get me started on the 5 or 7 series though.
-Paul
"I have seen middle aged white guys driving SUVs sitting on large chrome rims. They didn't pick that up at the country club. Now the manufacturers are making extra large rims available from the factory. It's a trend that started in the hood and with import tuner types, but now it is mainstream."
Point?? What does that have to do with what I said??
Examples: XLR vs ???, CTS-V vs.???, SRX vs.??? (not the Aviator - I like it and have driven 'em both, they're not all that similar), '05 STS vs ???
Not that Lincoln has to - Ford has Jaguar to carry that banner.
Volvo and Acura aren't even close. Any of the four Cadillac models I just mentioned are far superior to anything those two make.
Exactly... Acura is not a player.
Sure, compared to Volvo. The MDX is so respected that it's not even included in comparos with the SRX, because the testers know it's not in the SRX league. And so it will be with Acuras vs. the STS.
When Acura builds a proper RWD sports sedan, then they're a player... something with a V8 would be nice, too.
Right now, that is Cadillac's major weakness. They got the chassis and drivetrains right...now they need to give those interiors a major makeover.
LS went up aganist Catera. After the Catera was dropped It was left alone looking for competation. Lincoln has always been unable to find a place btw Buick and Cadillac to fight its battles. Mercury has never been a contender. At least not in the 90's. They (mercuries) are just Ford XLE's (read Camry top of the range XLE with Leather)
By the way. It looks very much like the outgoing 7 Series BMW
7 Series
LS
Lincoln has no CTS equivalent. The LS is a good car but its in a class of its own.
That is beside the point. The LS does not measure up to the outgoing SLS, STS with Northstar. The LS is in my opinion a better car than the outgoing STS, SLS, (Deu to RWD) but that is still not the point. The point is that the LS is a 3 Series wanna be
eaton53: I wonder how the STS will stack up against the upcoming RL. Rumor has it the RL will have a 300HP V6, a hybrid V6, and maybe an optional V8. Whew, this segment is tough!!!
I expect that the new STS will be priced substantially higher than the LS.
Cheers,
- Ray
Viva la competition - improving the breed . . .
We can't be so sure about the RL.
-juice
An interesting point he made is that Cadillac Division informed dealers that they are re aligning the cars where CTS is entry level, STS is mid-level, and Deville the flagship, at least until an even more upscale line appears a few years down the road (Fleetwood?)
He points out that STS will be available with a V6, but not Deville. He also claims Mr. Lutz wants Cadillac to emulate Mercedes where their biggest car is always the flagship car, excluding specialty cars like the SL600 or XLR.
- Bret
You asked to receive information about the all-new 2005 Cadillac STS as it becomes available, and your Cadillac Concierge is pleased to provide it for you. You interest is welcome and not surprising. The 2005 STS is, after all, the much-anticipated flagship of the Cadillac line.
Naturally, in creating this new sedan from the ground up, quality and craftsmanship were paramount. To that end, the craftsman who were carefully selected to create the 2005 STS are leaders in their field, recognized for their knowledge, experience, and passion.
Why the best and the brightest? Simply because the 2005 Cadillac STS was designed with the most demanding specifications of any sedan in Cadillac's history. The STS sets a new Cadillac standard with its level of fit and finish, fine-crafted appearance, and overall quality.
No detail was too small for the scrutiny of the Cadillac craftsman. From the appropriateness of the rich wood grains to the softness of the Milan carpets. From lighting performance to gloss levels to the aroma of the available Tuscany leather. From the quality of the available Bose® audio acoustics to the character of the exhaust note.
The overall result, as you'll see at the official unveiling at the New York Auto Show in April, is nothing short of spectacular.
The world awaits the most finely crafted Cadillac sedan we've ever built. And when you see it, touch it, and drive it when it becomes available this fall, we suspect you'll want us to build one for you.
I also believe that the Deville will soldier on relatively unchanged until something like 2009, to appeal to the current Cadillac crowd. I think that is smart, build cars to compete with the best and keep one around for traditional sales.