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And once again, ALL the manufacturers will have gotten right ahead in fighting the last war...but not the one we face now.
~alpha
Then how about the safety aspect of better handling? Will you at least listen to that? Accident avoidance is higher on my list than any amount of air bags or electronic nannys. The Fusion will be worlds better in that dept than the Camry, Accord, and Sonota.
If you're not impressed by HP numbers then how about acceleration numbers? The V6 Accord (family sedan) will do 0-60mph in 6.6 seconds (auto tranny). The V6 Mustang (sport coupe) will not even do that w/o some costly modifications.
So you take your cars to the track to get 0-60 times but not slalom or 1/4 mile times then? :P
C&D tested the V6 Mustang with ATX here and posted a 6.9 second 0-60 time. Test price was a little under $23k. Base price is a little under $21k.
In 2002 C&D tested the then new Accord V6 here and posted a 0-60 time of 7.0 seconds. Base price of an Accord LX with ATX is just under $24k.
If you want the Accord coupe V6 with an MTX you're looking at a sticker of just over $26k and a 0-60 time of about 5.9 seconds (according to C&D again). A Mustang GT MTX stickers for around $25k and does 0-60 in 5 seconds flat.
Please don't compare the two any more.
Honda features a timing belt which is a recommended replacement at 60k to 90k depending on who you talk to. This is a $600 repair at a Honda dealership. Or you could just risk it. If the belt fails, because Honda engines don't "free wheel" the pistons will slam into the open valves and bend them all. OH that just cost you your engine.
OH as for that 2.3L MazdaSpeed6 coming out this fall will have a version of this engine putting out over 270HP this fall including features Honda can't touch such as Direct Injection.
Don't worry too much about Ford, the new Explorer comes out this fall featuring the latest version of the 4.0 SOHC Cologne Engine. Granted this engine can trace itself back more than 30 years but this latest version will be rated ULEV2, which means it will create FEWER emissions than the HONDA ACCORD HYBRID!
I won't even get into Ford racing success.
Mark
There was a guy in an Escape thread making the same suggestions. Apparently the Honda crew thinks Ford just bored out the 2.0L ZETEC to make the Duratec23 which is entirely false as you pointed out. FWIW the 2.0L ZETEC had a timing chain too.
OH as for that 2.3L MazdaSpeed6 coming out this fall will have a version of this engine putting out over 270HP this fall including features Honda can't touch such as Direct Injection.
Rumors in some magazines point to the SVT Fusion getting the same motor. Add that to AWD and the Accord looks like a big joke.
So far Ford is almost making point in putting underpowered cars on the market so we will see.
I read those Ford or GM enthusiasts and God bless them. Just those darn regular customers don't want to buy those Detroit wonders and insist of being overchargerd buy evil Japanese and now Korean corporations. Then of course they (i.e. Detroit) sell to fleets (since most of them have buy American clause) and cars like Taurus plus Sabre can still claim combined best-seller title. Difference is: 90% of Camcord new buyers are people, I would be curious to see what is the percentage for Taurus or Malibu. I am sure Fusion will make a fine rental car
2018 430i Gran Coupe
No that has a belt. However, when it breaks it does not destroy the engine. I just replaced the belt in my Contour with the Zetec.
I have driven the 4 cylinder Mazda 6, and it is weak. Period. I have driven the 4 cylinder Accord and by stopwatch timing have hit 0-60mph in roughly 7.5 seconds (with the manual tranny). For a 3000+ lb car with a 4 cylinder engine that is quick (its true HP is around 170+ not the rated 160HP in the brochures). That's quicker than a Taurus and quicker than the new Pontiac G6 (6 cyl version). A 6 cylinder Accord can be had for around $21K depending on the trim level to updwards over $26K (don't have the pricing memorized and I'm basing these figures on what people actually pay WITHOUT a family plan discount). A 4 cylinder Accord with power windows, locks, mirrors, CD, keyless entry, and ABS can be had for about $17K (plus tax, title, plates), again without family plan pricing.
Want to talk about the 240+HP 4 cylinder engine (naturally aspirated BTW) in the Honda S2000? How about the 210+HP 2.4L engine in the Acura (er, Honda) TSX? Honda makes one hell of an engine. Not to mention that they are now getting into the V8 and even V10 engine business in couple of years when they make their debut.
Again this is a Fusion forum, so sorry about the Honda tangent. But again, the Mazda 4 cylinder engine is weak... and that's the engine going into Ford's best looking sedan in decades. Again, Ford is lacking in engine development. Why can't a domestic maker produce a worthy 4 cylinder engine? The Pontiac Solstice's 4 cylinder will only be making 170HP... The same as a 4 cylinder Accord. Can anyone say "slow lane cruiser"? Oh wait, they are going to make a turbo version in a couple of years. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make almost any engine a screamer when you go slapping on a turbo. Ford and the other domestic car company had better get on the ball if there are to be anymore truly domestic automakers. The 6 cylinder in the Fusion will be enough for most people, but in the paper comparisons its a loser. Period. Heck, the Honda 6 cylinder does not even displace 3 liters and it can compete (in family sedan clothes) with a V6 sports coupe.
There are too many "perfumed princes" sitting around patting eachother on their backs in the domestic companies I have worked with. Too many people equating box checking with producing quality.
Also, and my final point.... Why in the hell is Ford producing this new car in Mexico? Honda and Toyota (and Hyundai) are opening plants here in the USA. So what the hell is to say "buy American" for those of you who insist on buying 'American'? (Also, another common argument people try to make is that they say the cars may be made over in Mexico or Canada... but that the parts are made in the USA. Well, Toyota and Honda are localizing their suppliers to be close to their plants in the USA so that argument does not hold water either... And now Ford and GM are pushing their suppliers to open plants in China in order to supply them with even cheaper parts than were being made in Mexico).
(Now to fair with my criticisms... The 06MY Honda Civic is making its debut as we speak, and the front clip looks like it slicker version of the Saturn Ion. So there are guilty parties all around)
Example- Freestyle isn't underpowered unless you want to take it to a track or tow big loads no matter what the rags say. The Fusion with this same engine should even be OK on a track (in it's class), and thats not considering the "certified" 18 extra horsepower.
The one in my '98 ZX2 had a chain.
*edit*
I guess it was a belt. I was looking around for a diagram but all info pointed to it having a belt too. You're right though, snapping it did not damage the valves.
Maybe it was the SVT Focus version that had a chain?
Engine Specifications
It's a PDF file
Please fix your link in #1745. It starts with http://https// . Remove the https// and it will work.
Thanks.
Say what one will about Ford, its engines are by comparison virtually trouble free....
And ANT14, the 3.0 may produce 190 horses, but it still accelerates the vehicle to 60 in 7.9 seconds AND will be gone in 6 short months.
Finally, where does it say that the 221 rating is as per the Aug 2004 issuance of measurement standards by the SAE? I cant find anything for Ford, though I've found clear documentation on GMs sites regarding which of its engines are rated as per the most recent requirements.
~alpha
That being said, it is not going to be a class leading performer, but, it will be more than competitive. It has 1 more forward gear than any of its competition (v6 sedans in its size class and price class) and its torque number is not overly deficient. One other thing that many MANY people miss here is that both the Nissan VQ35 in the Altima, and the 3.0L V6 in the Accord use premium fuel to get to their power numbers. When filled with regular unleaded, their power numbers fall due to the computers retarding their ignition timing due to detonation in the combustion chambers. The Honda's lofty numbers do fall a bit, and Nissans do as well.
If you want performance in that sized car, you can wait a year or so for the SVT Fusion that's due in a year. It will likely have the new Ford 3.5L engine, possibly AWD as well. No official details have been released, but, one possibility is sharing a drivetrain with the MazdaSpeed6 (270HP turbo DGI I-4, AWD) as well. The Fusion/Milan do share a great many things with the 6, so that's not out of the question.
Right here is one place. See it a little over half way down.
The initial numbers at first were 210HP while the vehicle was in development. After tested under the SAE J1349 standard, turns out it really posted 221HP. As the article states, it will start being implemented in 2006, as/if vehicles receive engine upgrades (mid cycle revisions). This is also why some of the previous numbers for Ford vehicles, increased a few HP in the last few years. Example, the 500/FS/Mtgo. intially should have been 200HP 200TQ. while in development, but after testing it, it rated at 203HP 207TQ. The 2.3L numbers also increased a bit here and there years ago.
That's why some of the HP-TQ. figures of some current Ford's are odd numbered.... 192, 201, 203, 239, 292, instead of more solid round numbers. The majority of the engines have already met this standard, and if not yet been re-tested, will probably post higher numbers (as seen with the Duratec30) because the previous methods took various other additional accessories into account.
At least Honda and Toyota are restating every engine. Nissan's retested only the 4.5L in the FX45.
~alpha
And the 3.3L is going away as well, replaced by either the 268 horse 3.5L or the new generation 3.0L.
~alpha
Now that the issue is reversed, we have that camp touting, "well, in 2 years something bigger is coming (which in retrospect, so is Fords Duratec35)... or the "well, it uses premium fuel, so it's more refined than the Duratec"... "well it's only a 30HP difference, the cars transmission is geared to make up for it".... etc.etc......
The Fusion gets 221 horsepower out of 3.0L and it uses Regular Fuel?
Whatsup with that?
What percentage drop in horsepower, and decrease in mpg would you expect if you ran regular unleaded in the Toyota?
Anyway 221 horses drinking regular gas vs 190 horses drinking expensive premium is a significant difference.
221hp is great but torque could be better, that's the problem, not HP.
Accord's got 240hp - so what? Camry still outsells it handily.
-juice
That's a good point and I'd like to add by asking what the sales numbers are for Accord and Camry V6 models? Last I heard the Accord V6 sales numbers were like 20% of all Accords sold.
I'm also betting Ford is initially planning on selling more V6 models than, or about as many as, I4 models much as Mazda does with the 6. IIRC Mazda still sells more V6 models than I4 models to this date. In fact, the first year for the 6 was a nightmare for them because they underestimated demand for the V6 and Mazda lots were a sea of I4 models.
So if Ford does in fact hold true to this about 60-70% of all stoplight races between a Fusion or a Camry/Accord will be won by the former because it is more likely to have a more powerful V6. Since this is really what everyone seems to care about I just thought I'd point that out. :P
-juice
~alpha
Sorry, got a little off track there. But I guess my point is that Ford is capable of making good cars when it wants to -- i.e., the original Taurus, Contour/Mystique, etc. I expect the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr cars will be good ones.
My personal story about Toyota's "legendary" reliability -- I bought a 2002 Toyota Tacoma Prerunner, and when it had about 4,000 miles on it, my wife comes in and says the truck is making a "weird noise." I walk out and listen to it running before I pop the hood and ask her what she hit, because it sounded like the fan blade was hitting somewhere in the front. I figured the only way that could happen is if she hit something and shook a part loose in the process. Turns out, she didn't hit anything, but I was right that it was the fan blade hitting something. One of the engine mounts had fractured, throwing the whole engine forward in the engine compartment. Required a complete overhaul. Didn't shift correctly. Another complete overhaul. Still not right. Threatened to invoke lemon law. Toyota finally got it right and then we sold the Tacoma and got a real truck -- a Ford F-150 supecrew FX4.
See this is what cracks me up about people in this country. Somebody comes on and tells a real life horror story of something that went wrong with MIGHTY Toyota. OHHHHHH it's the exception. Now if that was a Ford, Oh my goodness. See that's why Fords are junk, Fix Or Repair Daily, that's why Domestics suck yada yada yada yada yada yada. People goodness, if that's not a double standard I dunno what it is. Just face it, Toyota and imports are not perfect. Imports have problems like everybody else. Last year Honda had a serious problem with the Honda CR-V catching on fire. Honda claimed that it was something to do with the dealers not properly re-installing the oil filter or some BS. If that was a Ford %90 of the people would never buy a Ford or Domestic again. Then when the Ford GT had a recall Oh the import lovers rub it all in our face. Completely ignoring the fact that Mr. Ferrari had recalls as well. That's just flat WRONG.
That's one of the reasons why I get so upset about Import lovers. Everybody has a right to their opinion and love what they love it's a free country. But to me, it seems like this country is out to get the Domestics. People have set up such an unfair double standard it's basically designed for the domestics to lose. It's almost as if though they want them out of business and want them to mess up. The PEOPLE are going to be the main reason why I think Domestics are going to continue to struggle, not soley because of there produces.
I fear that if our cars the Fusion/Milan are issued a recall 6-8 months after launch because the headlight bulbs burns out prematurely that's going to be the death of Ford. if the new 06-07 Camry had bad wheel bearing problem and the wheels fall off and kills a family of 4 in New York. Then there are numerous reports of the same thing happening all over the country Ohhhh it's just an Isolated event, it's the exception not the rule.
Why can't you just wake up and see the truth when it's staring at you right in the face !!!!!!!! Sorry Ant14 for going off the tangent about the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr but I had to respond to that, that's makes absolutely no sense. That's one of my buttons please don't erase my response. Thanks for letting me rant
One experience is not worthless, certainly, but it's not as meaningful as a rating from CR or JD Power or even Strategic Vision. It just can't be.
Now, if you told me you followed the Mystique threads on Edmunds for several years, and gathered experiences from dozens of owners on a regular basis, well then your data is a lot more meaningful.
-juice
And while Hon/Toy aren't perfect, in general they are much closer to perfect and the products/market reflects that. So when I read about how great the new Fusion is going to be...I want to believe it...but remember hearing the same thing about Fairmont/Zephyr, Tempo/Topaz and Contour/Mystake.
The Windstar (now Freestar), constantly rediculed for not being refined and competitive enough, received most dependable minivan in it's segment (after 3 years of ownership), hmm were was Sienna and Oddyseey there? heh...
There is obviously a double standard, and I'm constantly emailing these media journalists to point it out. There are just a select few that I find to be truely unbiased. Granted, many consumers got burned by previous products that were being dished out decades ago. So we have the "OH when my grandfather had an 87 Taurus, it was horrible" I just roll my eyes.... sooooo much of the vehicle changes through time, and because of past haunts, detroit automakers suffer now.
It'll obviously take some time of continuos improvments in Detroits behalf, to change perception. Luckily because of hard work, recent surveys have indicated that Detroit has improved, and in some segments, topped foreign rivals. But it'll be awhile before the media starts to harp that message. As it is, I've already compared past reviews/current reviews and noticed that some specific journalists are waking up a bit. And they have noted (in there reviews/columns) that Toyota/Honda legendary reputation for reliable is starting to wear off. And I'm seeing it here in numerous boards where not everything is rosy for them.
This is normal for any company to experience growing pains. When a company makes a vehicle as popular as the F-150 which sells over 950K units yearly, and that vehicle is hit with ONE recall (which it hasn't so far), then obviously it'll affect much more people than say another automaker, which might say 50K units of a competiting vehicle.
Honda has recently experienced that with the Accord having a couple of recalls (I believe someone in here, or another forum) mentioned it's about 4-5 so far for this year. Although we hardly ever hear of it. THis will be occuring more often as they increase sales, since it affects more people, then the playing field will be even.
I just received an e-mail from Edmunds that they will have moved the Fusion from the future cars to the new cars part of their site and should have all the pricing info within a week.
Has anyone seen a Fusion at a dealer yet?
Hey! My dad had an '87 Taurus and it was trouble free for the 10 years he owned it. Your grandfather is the exception and not the rule!!!!
In the 70s it was the Japanese cars that were considered tin cans. Toyota and Honda earned a good reputation, turned that around. It took decades to build the reputation they have. Millions of cars.
There is a significant lag - public perceptions is several years behind reality. Hyundai is now making solid cars, but it might take the public another 3 years or so to fully embrace them because the Excel was just plain lousy and that tainted their reputation.
The public *is* biased. No question.
-juice