Mazda - Does it have a good future in US?

regfootball

the 6 feels more spacious and you can stretch out more, the 3 feels roomy but snug.

the 3, by the way is an awesome ride. well done small car.

guest

I saw my 4th Mazda 3 today. The 3 is having a lot better debut than the 6 did. I don't understand why that is. Maybe the TV commercial for the 3 is better than the first Mazda 6 commmercial that aired.

the_big_h

is selling well because it's SIGNIFICANTLY an overall better buy than all the other cars in its class.

Mazda6 is very good, but its competitors are just as good, if not better, in what it offers for the money.

guest

I look at the 03-04 Corolla as the benchmark in terms of sales in this class. Its unbelieveable I hear people are paying 20K for a Mazda 3 which is a compact car. The last generation Protege(99-03) was better than the Corolla(98-02)and Civic(01+) in but didn't come out of the gate like the 3 is coming out in terms of penetrating the market.

theiceman

And I'm glad to see that the market is responding. I've said it before on this thread, the 6 is a very good car but is just too small in comparison to its competitors - it'll perhaps appeal more to single people, young couples, and those with an affordable performance bent, so it will command some sales but it won't set any sales records.

Now that the 3 is out, I really don't get why Mazda made the 6 the size they did - unless they've decided to cede the core of this market and chip away at the edges. Doesn't make sense to me but I'm not an auto industry exec.

guest

I think the with the 6 Mazda saw that Nissan and Honda abadoned the college crowd when the Altima and Accord became enlarged. Post 97 Accord's got bigger while the Altima after the 02 model year took a big leap in size. Mazda saw that and said Nissan and Honda abadoned the part of the market(college crowd) and went for that audience. Not a bad idea. The pre 02 Altima's and pre 98 Accord's were good cars for the college crowd. The new ones are too big for that audience.

The way Mazda marketed the 6 at first was terrible and the time they launched it(near Christmas time) was horrible timing. Option package aren't the best either. 6 sales have picked up. I think the next 3 years of Mazda sales are critical.

theiceman

You might be right but my point was that, with the 6, Mazda seems to be going after a really similar market that would also be attracted to the 3. Unless that market is huge, I don't get it.

guest

As said before the 6 has a little more interior room than the 3.

Finally, I did post a similar subject in the about interior room on the "Mazda 6 sedans board". People have actually fit 2 kids in the 6's backseat. So I guess maybe is enough room back there.

Your right though most of the people that buy the 6 will be young couples and singles. I guess Mazda just wants to be different from Honda and Toyota. No where the 6 is marketed its not a wide audience but thats where Mazda wants to market too I guess.

BTW, Mazda had their best December sales wise since 1994.

logic1

1 month? 2 months? 3 at most?

It is somewhat premature to make any final statement on its success or lack of success.

wale_bate1

3 me likey. Big likey, and that's just from pics.

If it was a RWDer, it'd likely be on the list of candidates for 2006 for me, even without a six...

Ice, I think you're right on sizing and the impact on sales in that ever-so-demanding famsedan class. True, the more, um, closely-crafted size of the 6 means I find it much more appealing than any Camry or Accrod, but representing the mainstream I'm not!

As far as two models competing for overlap buyers, I'm reminded of the BMW 5 v. 3 series matchup. Not much more real usable room in a 5, and certainly they get cross-shopped (I did), but even though close, cases for each can be made.

stickguy

If they are too close in size, it would be a good time to stretch the 6 just a bit. SInce Ford is building a kazillion models on this platform, shouldn't be hard to add 2-3 inches to the whellbase and back seat to close the gap on the competition.

Anyway, I'm 6' tall, and fit fine in the back of the 6, so I don't really see what all the fuss is about, since my kids have tons of room. If I want to carry 3 6' ers all with their legs crossed, I'll dig up an old Checker.

theiceman

Just out of curiousity, I checked the EPA interior volume figures for the top selling marques (all figures in cu. ft.) plus BMW:

Mazda (3/6): 94/96
Nissan (Sentra/Altima): 88/103
Toyota (Camry/Corolla): 90/102
Honda (Civic/Accord): 91/103
BMW (3er/5er): 91/99 (note - the '03 5er was only 93 cu. ft.)
Chevrolet (Cavalier/Malibu/Impala): 92/99/105
Ford (Focus/Taurus): 95/105
Pontiac (Grand Am/Grand Prix/Bonneville): 90/97/104.

The numbers admittedly don't reflect how "useable" the space is.

PF_Flyer

6 vs 3 interior space is certainly chat fodder!



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nippononly

sure do outline the difference in cu ft between the 6 and the rest of the pack. Of course, one way to increase a car's passenger volume without making the car gargantuan is the increasingly popular practice of making the roof higher. That is something which increases the numbers, but not in a way that is especially useful to the owner, usually. What are you going to do, stack people up to the ceiling?

To me, when I drove the 3, it seemed just the right size for its segment. But I have not driven the 6.

guest

I see people on the Mazda 3 Prices Paid Board with numbers like 20 grand for a 3. Thats alot of money for a compact car. Is that really a good value for the amount of car you are getting?

Like to see the sales numbers for the 3 when they come out and the 6 also. See if Mazda is making any progress in terms of gaining the market share back that they lost in the mid 90's. Market share is at 1.6% got a long ways to go to see 2.5%-2.9% market share they had between the years of 1988 or 89 to 1994.

Mazda's best year in terms of market share was 1991 when it had 2.9% of the US Market. Best selling year was 1994 when they sold 380,000 cars. In 1995 Mazda went down to selling between 260,000-280,000 units. In one year their sales dropped by 100,000+ units. Thats a big drop for a small automaker like Mazda. Best year since 1995 sales wise was 2001 when they sold 269,000+ cars. Sales dropped in 1996 and 1997 from 1995 numbers. Mazda did enjoy sales growth for 4 straight years in 98,99,00,and 01 mostly thanks to the 99 Protege Sedan.

Mazda has now had 3 straight consecutive months of sales growth in 2003 compared to the last months of 2002. So it is looking up a little bit.

theiceman

I don't think Mazda's challenge is solely about the size of the 6: the 6 is a nice car and doesn't intrinsically need to be bigger. Nevertheless, we have to keep in mind that the 6 is not only Mazda's sole mid-sized offering, it's also their largest car. So their message to the market is, "if you want something larger than a 6, it better be a mid-sized SUV or a minivan or you're buying somebody else's product."

At least they used to have the 929 which, once upon a time, sold decently - despite the fact that it was overpriced in the eyes of Mazda's market. Forget the Millenia - it was a decent car that definitely had its fans but it never sold that well: too small and too Mazda to compete with other near-luxuries and too expensive to compete with the Camcords.

Now, I can understand that Mazda might not be able to afford to broaden their product line right now to add another sedan. If that's the case, why concentrate so much at the small end of the mid-sized segment (an end which cars like the previous Altima clearly demonstrated was nothing more than a niche)? Unless they're planning a larger Mazda 9 (perhaps with the v6 as an entry level with a near-luxury v8 version???), I just don't get the strategy here in North America.

Mazda has a history of developing great cars which seem to be aimed at niches which don't really exist - their balance of price/size/performance/amenities just that much out of synch with the rest of the market. With what I had seen and heard over the last couple of years, I was pleased to see the product finally coming back. I'm just not convinced that their current product line strategy - if there is one - will give them their due.

guest

I think its best in the car business today. Its just when I had my Mazda and the lease was ready to expire Mazda didn't have the 6 out yet. I was forced to go elsewhere. The Millenia was alright and yeah I agree enter entry in terms of getting into the backseat was difficult.

Mazda's strategy in NA worked pretty well in the late 80's/early 90's. Once the SUV hit thing hit they were toast.

I don't get why the Altima gets brought up and compared to the 6. The last generation Altima was a good college car. The first generation Altima was also a college car but the extertior styling set it apart from Honda and Toyota. I am a huge fan mid-size cars that are compact inside like the 5th generation Honda Accord. I don't even like how cars are getting bigger. The Corolla is too big for a compact and the bland styling shows how oversize it is for its class in terms of exterior design and proportion. I don't have a problem with the interior room but the exteriors of cars get too look too funky with all those interior room added.

If Mazda could ever build an SUV thats a not a rebadged Ford they would have something. Imagine if the Tribute was not a rebadged Ford. Even it was made in Flat Rock with just Mazda's parts reliability would be at least average. I would like to see Mazda build something that competes with the likes of the Saturn VUE and Honda CR-V but isn't a rebadged Ford. Have Mazda Japan design it and everything like they did with the 6.

The 929 was a decent car but the Acura Legend was the car at the time everybody wanted.

logic1

is only the best selling vehicle in the small ute segment.

guest

thats a Ford. Thats what I am saying its a Ford. The Tribute has been hampered because its a rebadged Ford. Look at the starting and stalling problems when the car first debut. I have nothing against the Escape but its a Ford. Supposedely CR reccomends it now. They must have the kinks worked out of the car now. Thats good and all but Mazda needs to build its own Car-like SUV.

rctennis3811

I'd like to see a crossover based on the MAZDA6 to replace the Tribute.

nippononly

pictures, I could easily see how it could be a Mazda as well as a Ford...and a Volvo, even. That would meet the needs of the people wanting a bigger crossover than the Tribute.

the_big_h

http://www.mazda.com/publicity/2004e/200401/siryou200401sae.html

I think Mazda will just be fine after all :-)

theiceman

The numbers are definitely in the right direction worldwide but they also show a 15% decline in N.A. sales.

PF_Flyer

Good thing the chats can't be snowed out!



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the_big_h

it looks like Europeans really do love Mazdas though!

maybe it's because Mazdas DRIVE like European cars??? ;-)

theiceman

I can understand the success of Mazda in Europe - the new product line particularly has quite the European flavour. And the size of the 6 wouldn't even register as an issue there.

rroyce10

 ...... Actually the Tribute has done very well in the market, the problem is getting them .. having one plant build both has been a drawback for 3 years for both sides, if Ford would have been smart they would have had 2 plants building instead of the one in KC servicing both coasts, probably missed 50,0/70,000+ sales ...

                     Terry.

mariner7

Hey, Mazdaguys, I read Mazda engineered Escape/Tribute, and said so on another board. But some argued it was Ford who engineered them. I told them if Ford had done it, it'd look & drive alot like Explorer. So what's the real deal?

And I don't care if Escape/Tribute use a lot of Ford parts off the bin. I want to know who was responsible for putting all the parts together.

dinu01

The Tribute is an Escape and the B-series is a Ranger.

Dinu

nippononly

reading an article in one of the car mags when the Tribute first came out, saying Mazda had taken an Escape and "tweaked" the intakes, improving power slightly, and changed the suspension settings and installing their own (quicker) steering rack on V-6 models. Those are the only changes. Ford designed the rest of the Tribute, mechanically.

the_big_h

it's pretty obvious between Mazda and Ford who has more expertise in building trucks ;-)

groovypippin

underneath the escape, however, was lead by a Mazda.

guest

Actually in the early to mid 80's the Ford Pickup-Truck(whatever it was called at the time: maybe the Ranger) had a Mazda engine in it. Mazda used to make their own pickup truck prior to 1993 when the B-Series became a rebadged Ford Ranger.

qbrozen

Nipponly has the same info on it in his memory that I do. We must have read the same article.

But, it is definitely not a rebadged Escape if you read and trust the several reviews that state it handles much better than the Escape.

saber86

"Actually the Tribute has done very well in the market, the problem is getting them .. having one plant build both has been a drawback for 3 years for both sides, if Ford would have been smart they would have had 2 plants building instead of the one in KC servicing both coasts, probably missed 50,0/70,000+ sales" ...

If tribute is such hot seller why is mazda offering $3000 cash rebate or 5 year 0% percent financing?

nippononly

in six months it will be going into its fourth year...maybe that explains the incentives. It does sell pretty well in terms of Mazda sales. Escape sells much much better though.

the_big_h

there are more Ford dealers around the country, so it's pretty easy to have Escape outselling Tribute by several magnitudes

guest

0% financing has been going on for awhile now. The only manufacturers not to do the whole 0% thing were Honda and VW since 2001. Nissan, Toyota, GM, Chrysler, Ford have all done it. I think Hyundai has been doing the 0% thing for a couple years now. I don't think in Mazda's line-up the 3 has the 0% financing tag on it(nopt yet anyway.)

The factory rebate if you have an issue there I can understand. To me there was too much Ford in the Tribute. Too many reliability problems after introduction. If the Tribute was made in Japan you wouldn't be able to keep those things on lots. The Mazda 6 is made in NA but thats more Ford/Mazda joint so reliability should be at least average. The Tribute is more Ford than Mazda which would be the problem.

I saw on the Future Vehicles board about the Mazda MX-Microsport which could be a Mini-Cooper competitor if brought to America(something Mazda probably wouldn't do though.) I think if Mazda could make a mini-cooper cometitor that could be like their comeback car like the VW Beetle was for VW in 1998-1999. It would be faddish(The MX-Microsport)but it can also win you young buyers which can later move up to the 3 or 6. If done right the MX-Mircoport could be priced at 13-14k. I have noticed Mazda is best at making small compact cars. A Mini-Cooper competitor seems like the right recipe for Mazda. If brought to America I wonder if it would be called the Mazda 2.

the_big_h

already a Mazda2 in Japan ane Euro Market.

and i don't like the idea of Mazda bringing over a subcompact for this market. the 3, with its wide range of options, should be able to cover most of the price ranges in the compact market.

wimsey1

It's is a smaller Minivan and as such a niche market car. How about the first REAL performance package in a minivan, Mazdaspeed touch with a more aggressive suspension and sneakers, good buckets a slap shift auto (or shift buttons), and some extra horsies.
Give enthusiasts a van they could enjoy!
Or a rear drive sedan, coupe and convert off the RX-8 platform, rotary, V-6, or Ford V-8?

rroyce10

...... Actually it's a $2,000 rebate .. but rebates aren't really reflective of whether a product is selling well or not, it depends on the corporate peanut counters and their view points ..

          They feel that if they rebate a vehicle that it could do "over the top", perhaps lower the units for the competitor, buy some market share, they also get the buyer that has lot's of "negative equity" which is the *majority buyer*, they have all kinds of reasons, some good some bad ...

            The Tribute has a rebate for the same reasons that Land Rover, Mercedes, Jag, Acura, Infiniti, Honda does, to get business, steal market share ...

                      Terry.

nippononly

I read in Automotive News this morning about rusting door sashes in NA Mazda6s? I just read the headline, but it appears they are rusting prematurely and it is a widespread enough problem for Mazda North America to have to address it...and here I thought most automakers had rust issues licked by the new millennium...

guest

The rust issue is old news. Mazda missed something in the factory in process of painting the cars. I think as long as Mazda fixes the problem they'll be ok. Its embarassing yes but they they can't let this problem go. When the mid 90's Ford Tranny's blew up in mid 90's 626's Mazda did nothing about it. They can't afford to lose customers.

seminole_kev

If I remember correctly, it was some soapy rinse that they used that caused the problem. I think there was a section that trapped the suds (or something like that) that would lie in wait to cause rust. Supposedly is something that was nipped in the bud fairly early on after discovering it.

chikoo

is a harsh term, imo.

From what I have seen and read about it, nobody has the doors "corroded" in the classic manner rust would exhibit. It is at best causing a surface stain, which if you are proactive, can remove with a rag and in the process also clean off the lubricant off the weatherstrip.

guest

models. I think Mazda is going to have to ecall cars. It looks like Mazda took care of the problem when they retuned for the 04 model year at the Flat Rock plant.

In other Mazda news(just seen on the Mazda 3 board) Mazda sold 17,700 cars last month. It was their best selling January since 1994. The 17,700 units sold are at least 2,700 units sold more than Januray 2003. Sales of the 3 were 170% over Mazda's orginal targets. So Mazda is back!

PF_Flyer

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saber86

"Actually it's a $2,000 rebate .. but rebates aren't really reflective of whether a product is selling well or not, it depends on the corporate peanut counters and their view points"

I just rechecked the mazda website and the cash rebate is $2500. What you said about rebates makes no sense. Just look at what the big cash rebates is doing to the bottom line profits at GM/ford/chrysler.

If what you say is true, than why won't honda offer cash rebates on cr-v, odyssey, and pilot? I see toyota is offering no cash rebates on any of their product lines. Toyota and Honda doesn't need to offer cash rebates because most of their products sell extremely well on their own. We can't say the same for mazda.

rroyce10

....... Your getting a little confused, actually Toyota and Honda runs programs all the time .. right now, Honda is running dealer cash money on the Civics and depending on the amount of sales it will be around $1,000 per vehicle .. as far as the Ody's go, they have a special lease program on the EX's and special programs the Accords - which is funded by Honda corp, for AHFC ..

           Where you kinda missing the point is, whether it comes from the left pocket or the right pocket it's coming out of the same pair of pants .. Honda pays for these programs to move their vehicles as quickly as possible.

           Toyota also has rebates and programs that are paid for (or rebated by the manufacturer) .. 04 Camrys have the special rates and leases, (all paid for by Mr. Yota) the Corolla's, Tundra's and the Matrix the same, the Tacoma's have a $1,500 rebate, and let's not forget the Highlander, thats being subsidized by Mr. Yota also with 0%, what ever the potential gain is what Yota pays .. so they have Lot's of factory subsides, rebates, special rates, whatever it takes to move those puppies ..

           If you kinda step away from the car industry, take a breath and look around, rebates and special dealer programs are not indigenous to the car biz .. it's going on as we speak in the jewelry biz, furniture companies and the Boat industry .. "Sea Ray" boats is supposed to be the industry leader, well if it's the best, why do they have rebates up to $25,000 ...?

          Big companies have to move big quantitys fast, the dealers certainly can't carry the load .. get used to it, it's been here for many years and whether we like like it not, it will be here for many more ~ the bigger you get, the faster those units have to "turn and burn" ...

               I hope this helps ...

                       Terry :-)

guest

1,000 cash back or 0% financing on 04 Camry's. Also 400 dollar cash back on Corolla.

I stand to be mistaken Mazda had its best January since 1985 not 1994. Even with the Northeast having bad weather and thats most of Mazda business is in the Northeast Mazda posted a 24.6% sales gain. The 3 off to a great start for Mazda. Mazda sold 4,426 3's in January.

As for effecting profits Mazda has been in the black every year with the exception of 2001. Remember most of Mazda's profits come from Europe and Japan not the US(not yet anyway.)