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Comments
kcram
Host - Wagons
Any new thoughts or suggestions?
The depreciation formula is dependent upon how long you drove the car before you had your first problem. For us, the car was back in the shop after only driving 150 miles, so the useage percentage was so ridiculously low it could not even be used to subtract value from the car.
I am not sure how this works with a lease, and you may want to reconsider your desire to trade it in for another Pacifica. This discussion group has shown me that, while the 2005 seems to be a little better, many of the same 2004 problems still exist.
In California, we were given a free consultation with our attorney. We just kept faxing our service invoices to them until they decided we had a case, and took it from there.
My advice? Get rid of the car. Stick to your guns. Consult an attorney. I feel like the weight of the world has been lifted off of my shoulders with that car gone from our garage. Good Luck.
I found my attorney by searching on the Internet. They take cases from all over California, but it turned out that their office is less than 10 miles from my home! The entire process was completed via fax - I never had to go in for anything.
Consulting an attorney may be wise to get the "lay of the land" so to speak.
Bigproblems is the first to report her Pacifica leaving them stranded away from home (post on Jan 24). Actually Bigproblems I didn't exactly understand what happened. You reported that the 1st time the transmission module went out. But if this happens the gear box should default to the 2nd gear, so you should be able to drive to the next city (at approx 30-40 miles/hour). So how come you were left stranded ? About the 2nd time: you report that the wheel stabilizer went out and your husband was able to see the wheel in an abnormal position. Are you sure you know what you are talking about ? Those steel pipes are not elastic at all, so either the wheel got disconnected from the car and flew away, or it nicely stayed where it was supposed to stay. Perhaps your husband is able to see the "wheel on the outside of the wheel well through the side, passenger mirror" even when sitting in a brand new perfect Pacifica ??? Many people take very seriously what they read in these posts, so you better know what you are talking about.
Was somebody else left stranded in his/her Pacifica ???
Redwingsfan, in Canada I don't think the lease payments matter if the car dies in the middle of nowhere at -30 degrees ! Especially with two kids in the car. I would better pull out how much $$ it takes to buy a car ...
But let's see what Bigproblems answers.
What a load of crap.
The problem was the o-ring (thats what the dealer called it) on the transmission pump cracked and I was actually leaking transmission fluid all over the freeway. As I recall someone honked at me while on the freeway but I didnt know why and I just ignored it. I guess I was spraying the fluid all over the cars behind me. When i got home I noticed oily substance all over the rear and undercarriage of the pac. The dealer did fix the problem and the part was a special order from the factory since this kind of thing had not happend before. The pac was in the shop for a week. All is well now with no signs of this happening again(but then again this sort of thing just happens spontaneously). I have had no other problems with my pac and I love this car. At 6k miles and going strong! knock on wood
Ummmmmmm, it is far more than one person. Take a look back on this forum and just add up the number of times "lemon law" comes up in connection with the PAC. I read other boards on other autos where lemon law issues have never come up at all, not once. These kinds of problems are real and very much a consideration in evaluation of the PAC.
Yesterday I was at a Ford dealership (Which is right down the street from a DC dealer) purchasing an F250 for my work. The salesman and I were talking cars and specifically the new Ford Freestyle which is the most direct competitor with the PAC on the market today. He said he had a couple of friends come in after almost buying a PAC. They took it home overnight thinking they had found the car they wanted. The next morning they backed out of the garage to find fluid all over the floor from the PAC. Needless to say they went looking for other options immediately.
When someone has had a new car into the dealer 12 times it is hardly a "load of crap" concern.
Watch that Ford Randy. It may catch on fire while you're not looking.
It has been my experience (I only buy new cars), that with a proper "break in" period, a trouble -free new car will remain reliable in later years, until major things wear out as you approach, say 100,000 miles.
I have had trouble with a new Renault I bought years ago, but it was trouble from the start, despite my best efforts. My mistake in buying that one...
How many PACs did Chrysler produce that are 2004 and 2005 model years? Hmmm? Probably exponentially more than all the so called lemon law posts in here. I'd bet that the ratio of "lemon" cars to "good" cars is well under the acceptable levels for such things or Chrysler would be in serious trouble. In fact, according to Ward's Automotive, Chrysler Group sold 2,127,451 light vehicle units in 2003 and 2,206,024 light vehcile units in 2004. That's a total of 4,333,475 units in 2 years. If the PAC accounts for 1/25th (and that's undoubtedly high) of Chrysler light vehicle sales, that's 177,340 units in two years and there have been what, 25 "lemon law" posts? Know what percentage that is? I've saved you the headache and done the math for you: that's a percentage of .0144226%.
People are too quick to sue these days and rant and rave about what they're going to do to the dirty dealer who sold them the car. Guess what? All new models have problems that need to be ironed out in the first couple of years. That's why you shouldn't buy a new design's first model year!! DOH!
We had a Grand Prix that was in the shop about 15 times in three years. It was a pain in the rear to be sure but I don't call the car a lemon. A lemon is a car that has a recurring problem that cannot be fixed not one that might have a series of various different problems. ALL mechanical things have problems. For example, coffee pots. Maybe not yours but of the millions of coffee pots made each year, I bet about 4-5% of them are defects. If you are one of the million who's machine is OK, we never hear a peep from you. If you're the guy with the busted one, my God we can hear you bellowing a mile away!
If you think your PAC is a lemon, get rid of it by taking it back to the dealer. You should consult the lemon law statutes of your state to make sure it qualifies. Dealers don't want to take them back but the factory is who pays for it ultimately so they shouldn't give a rip.
Grand Prix: Power steering return hose broke, alternator quit, wheel sensor gave out, weather stripping/seal on windshield worked loose, torsion bar left rear mysteriously bent and was replaced, power steering supply hose broke, water pump gave out, head gaskets needed to be replaced, battery died, heads up display wouldn't adjust up or down, radio controls on sterring wheel quit working. This is short list of the things I can recall happened off the top of my head. These are everyday maintenance issues and since no one single problem ever repeated under the laws of my state it would not have qualified as a lemon. I didn't cry and whine, I got the things fixed under the MFG's 3 year BtoB warranty and the extra 4 year extended service contract I bought. It's all how you manage the process.
The point is that you shouldn't HAVE to manage the process! There should BE NO process. If I had purchased your Grand Prix (which would never happen because GM is on my never purchase list) I would have done everything to legally get rid of it. Why should any consumer put up with that much crap on an new car?
And the fact that there are people here who are or have returned their PACs under lemon laws is relevant. As I said before, in other forums I read no one has even mentioned lemon laws. I don't care how many units are produced, if some are lemons that make their way to the consumer it is a quality issue. Buyers should at least be aware that the issues exist. Be honest, after reading this forum, if you were going to buy a PAC would you not go to a parking lot and do tight turns listening for the clunking sound? Sure you would because it is a problem known to PACs.
Even if you have not experienced the problem PAC syndrome doesn't mean that the problem PACs don't exist. No matter how many statistics you use, the lemon law problems exist for some PAC owners.
Just a couple of pointers here - dealers aren't involved, in any manner, after a lemon law suit is filed, so there's no need for this urban legend insurance that is spoken of, simply because they're not a named party on these suits, so no defense is necessary - the manufacturer is the only party liable to the consumer, not the dealer - the dealer's only involvement is either to fix the vehicle, or provide documentation from their files to help both parties resolve the issue.
The dealer didn't make the vehicle and doesn't provide a warranty - they're basically untouchable in all of this, which sucks, because their only punishment for doing shoddy work is whatever the manufacturer rep can deal out - not much, usually, and nothing of a legal sense.
Sorry to correct you but you're just wrong regarding the availablity of insurance for dealers' defense in lemon law suits. It is not an Urban Legend.
Curious, are YOU in the insurance field - specifically the niche market that insures auto dealers?? If not, you really shouldn't be commenting on it since you're not well versed in the coverages that are available to dealers. I've been in the dealer market for 18 years on the other hand.
Because cars are machines that are manufactured by humans and humans make mistakes. You have completely unrealistic expectations in my opinion. I'm glad I don't live in your "everything should be perfect" fantasy world. That must be frustrating to live with. If you have ever had a house built....was it perfect? You've never had a TV or VCR go on the blink and therefore not be perfect? Geez!
But to the point, you would not have been able to use the lemon laws to get rid of the Grand Prix due to the following portion of the Lemon Law in my state: "The same nonconformity which substantially impairs the use and value of the motor vehicle to the consumer has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents or authorized dealers within the term of any warranty or during the period of one year following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to a consumer, whichever is the earlier date, but such nonconformity continues to exist."
Like I said before, there was never a recurrence of the same problem. All the whining and complaining would have been for naught. What you do is take it to the dealer and get it fixed. If they keep it overnight they generally will give you a rental car under the warranty terms. No biggie!
"Even if you have not experienced the problem PAC syndrome doesn't mean that the problem PACs don't exist. No matter how many statistics you use, the lemon law problems exist for some PAC owners."
I didn't say that problems don't exist - I'm here to tell you that problems will exist on any car over time. Your answer cracks me up. .01144226% of PAC's "could be" lemons and that's not a meaningful number? That's 114 cars in 1,000,000 or 572 cars in 5,000,000. Sounds like pretty darn good odds to me. You just happen to be one of the unlucky ones and that s*cks for you.
All I'm saying is just don't cr*p all over the rest of us (and our PAC's) who aren't.
Copy and paste in your browser.
LOL
Ok, those are not real numbers, you are making assumptions about how many lemons there are from your earlier post. Fact is we have no real numbers. All I am trying to say is that zero post about owners seeking lemon law protections vs several different owners of the PAC seeking lemon law protection. Which is better?
And I do not have completely unrealistic expectations. I expect a new auto to be mostly if not completely trouble free for at least 1-2 years minimum. My last 3 autos have met that expectation. A Nissan minivan (Masked as a Mercury) had no issues for 5 years, then it was just some maintenance. This year we did have a master cylinder go out on the brakes. My Hyundai Sante Fe had a couple of minor recall issues that were fixed on a routine oil change and one sensor problem that did require a special trip to the dealer. My 04 Honda Pilot has not had any issue in almost 11 months.
Contrasting that kind of experience with the people who have a laundry list of problems, multiple trips to the dealer, unresolved issues, etc. is the real point of the post.
IN closing, yes I did build a house less than 2yrs ago. My builder turned out to be a pathological liar and a criminal and the house took 3 yrs to build, there was legal action and all kinds of crazy stuff. BUT, we got the house and we got it done the right way. We had to work at it and make demands at times from contractors who just wanted to "get it done" but if you don't demand quality you won't get quality.
As American auto consumers we have not always demanded quality and therefore we got poorly manufactured autos. When American made autos are imported into Japan, those autos go off the boat and into preparation areas where the workers fix all the issues and problems the cars have that Japanese consumers won't stand for. Everything from paint flaws to misaligned body panels to rattles and shakes. I still contend we should not have to put up with poor quality autos! This idea that as long as we can take it to the shop and get a loner car we should be happy has got to stop! We as the buying public need to demand that when cars roll out of the assembly plant that they are a quality product that is ready to be problem free to the consumer.
As for me, I'm done with this conversation per the Hosts's wishes and we obviously do not agree on anything.
Buh-Bye, now.
I have a 2004 FWD Pac that just turned 40,000 miles this week. Not too many bells and whistles--leather seats, 6 disc CD/DVD changer. I can honestly say this car has been virtually (not completely) trouble-free. I have taken it in to the dealer once for two problems covered by TSBs. One, the CD problem. TSB fixed this problem completely. Two, a downshift problem from 4th to 3rd. TSB fixed this problem mostly. I still experience some noise, but not too much. Other than those two minor issues, no issues at all.
Certainly, vehicles will present problems. However, I wholeheartedly recommend and love my Pac. This car is great for a person my size 6'2". In the earlier days of my commute I was driving a Ford Expedition and felt beat up and tired when I got home. After switching to the Pac and its great smooth car-like ride and wonderfully-comfortable seats, I get home and have the energy to play with my kids.
Gator.
Completely agree with your post. I too have the 2004 Pacifica FWD, similar experiences at 18,000 miles thus far. Question: 1) My radio "crackles" with voices sometimes on FM talk and satellite radio particularly , it seems to be coming from the treble end of the audio spectrum. Some CD's also, but this is not noticeable all the time. Is this problem covered under a TSB ? 2) My transmission shifts great, but I hear sometimes hear a mild "clunk" under light acceleration, usually from 20- 40 mph. I cannot tell if it is a transmission issue or the motor mounts as the engine /tranny is put under a load with the acceleration. I rarely hear it at highway speeds at all, it seems to be a low speed thing, and there is no shuddering or misbehavior at all of engine or transmission performance. This could even be a "lock up" overdrive issue....Any thoughts on this?
As to the radio issue---CDs and sat radio caused my crackling problem. Never noticed it with FM. Check TSB # 08-010-04. Rubber Factory and Thickfreakness CDs by The Black Keys really caused my speakers to go haywire. Maybe you'll get a good DC dealer like mine and he'll go ahead and replace the radio and the amp at the same time even though the TSB says to replace radio, listen for problem and if still exists, replace amp.
As to transmission shift---Not sure on that one. My problem was a slight "clunk" when the car downshifted from 4th to 3rd at approx. the 30 mph mark.
Hope this helps a little.
Gator.
Nuff said.
Lauren
Visibility backing out of a parking space is another matter, but many vehicles are like that. You just have to back out very slowly. A rear view camera would really help. But this is the only time that I feel uncomfortable in my Pacifica and I feel it's a small price to pay for the other outstanding features of the car.
Backing up , I always size up what's behind me before I get in, I do not back up anymore than is absolutely necessary, I will turn the wheel and back up a little , the Pacifica is manuverable enough . Choosing your parking space well saves about 50% of backing up , and less door dings to boot..........
A good driver will not have a problem with the Pacifica, unsure drivers or those prone to panicking should practice a little or just get a convertible....
I snagged a parking pole once (didnt even see it in the mirror) (lesson that cost me $200 in minor paint repair)
I also try to avoid backing up in tight spaces because the blind area.
If you go for a test drive in the car, make sure that you try out lots of different types of driving (and parking spaces) to make sure that you and your girlfriend are comfortable with what you can, and possibly can't, see.
We got our 2005 Pacifica last September, and we haven't been to happy since them for a series of small' problems (GPS antenna not plugged in, actuator for power pedals not installed, noise in the engine etc).
All of those have been fixed and we are now left with 2 issues:
1) one of the key went berzek (it will trigger panic when you try to open)
2) and this is the biggest concern: the gearbox is late to shift up or down.
This was a feeling' so far recalling from our test drive experience and we blamed it on having come down from a V8 Durango but the last time it went for service we got a rental.
A 2005 AWD Pacifica !!! The 1st thing we noticed is that the gear box is visually different. We have the silverish in line kind and the rental had the black scaled one.
And more importantly this one shifted more dynamically.
We are now back with our own Pacifica and it still is too slow shifting. For example you'd go up hill slowly and you feel and hear it should shift down but it does it so late it sounds like the engine is going to stall.
I'm bringing it back this Friday to demonstrate the issue.
Anyone has had this problem as well? Should I worry about the gearbox not looking like a 2005 one?
1. Ongoing popping/clunk noise from front end when accelerating from a stop. 7 Service attempts and still cannot fix it. Replaced bushings, control arms, transmission, braces etc.
2. EVIC unit died about a month ago.
3. Cruise control does not work itermittently.
4. Dash lights dim intermittently
My advice to anyone who is experiencing problems with their Pacifica is to throughly document every service attempt. Make sure the work order is written with the customer complaint worded exactly as you want it not as the service writer interprets it. Place a claim with Chrysler customer service and have them open a complaint case file to get things on record. (I did this back in December, that was 3 service attempts ago). To their credit I will have to say that Chrysler has stepped right up to the plate and agreed to buy the car back since I followed all the rules to a "T" and have everything properly documented in my complaint case file. I should have my refund check within the next week and it's off to Lexus land with a RX330.
This is basically the "tech" name for the overhead console display.
kcram
Host - Wagons
His Pac was one of the first ones ever built, beginning of 2003. Obviously they knew those vehicles were big trouble so they saved time by just refunding the vehicle value. They were nice.
Actually me too I was impressed by my Chrysler dealership. When my Pac was delivered to the dealership I saw that the right front door was not perfectly aligned with the fender (the door was about 0.5 mm more to the inside of the car than the fender). It was barely visible so I decided to say nothing. I was really impressed yesterday to see that, even if I had said nothing, they adjusted the door position to a perfect alignment. My understanding about Chrysler dealerships is that they have good intentions, but it takes time till they "learn" the car. That's why it could be smart to not allow them to touch my Pac too much, till they learn more.
I was planning to pick it up today, but it snows like hell, so I'll leave it for tomorrow or Friday. I saw it yesterday, cleaned for delivery, and I must say that people walking around were smiling when looking at me.