Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

jchan2

of course, the Pilot.

alpha01

and get the 270hp Highlander Hybrid, with estimated average fuel economy of 28 MPG!!

~alpha

dindak

"270hp Highlander Hybrid with estimated average fuel economy of 28 MPG"

When I see it I'll believe it.

ateixeira

Prius isn't quite making EPA estimates, real world mpg is more like 45 vs. the 59/51 estimated. Still, Highlander will probably get 25 or better.

-juice

rctennis3811

Which is still very good, especially for an SUV.

jchan2

considering the Pilot is rated at 18/23.

alpha01

Toyota never published an "average" fuel economy for the Prius, just the expected EPA figures. However, they are taking a different route with the HL and RX, in my opinion to circumvent the issues with the inflationary EPA figures (due to outmoded testing procedures). I feel that Toyota realizes that falling short of advertised figures will eventually be bad PR, and as such, are offering, in these initial press releases, THEIR OWN estimated average fuel economy numbers, which put the HL/RX hybrids at 28 MPG. I'd be shocked to see if theres a great discrepancy from that figure, for example, when the models are finally tested by a publication for CR.

That said, for my personal preferences, an AWD SUV with 270 hp getting anything greater than 22 MPG average is pretty darn good.

~alpha

dindak

Ya, it's not bad (if it all comes together). Too bad they didn't do a hybrid the cool 4 Runner instead of that dumpy looking Highlander though.

jchan2

not bad.... but if they tuned it more for efficiency than performance, then the fuel economy would be even higher.

corsicachevy

A discussion about GM's new minivans has evolved into a discussion about Toyota and Honda products. These vans are old (as a practical matter) and totally out classed by the competition - including Chrysler and Ford - AND they haven't even hit the market yet.

GM was on a roll. I hope they don't repeat this mistake with another vehicle line.

dindak

Best vans are definitely Chrysler, Toyota and Honda. These GM vans are an unknown really but they don't appear to be much better than the current vans. They will appeal to some and likely hold market share but really GM should have done more.

That said, I think their strategy was to just hold share in a sinking (and shrinking) van market with minimal investment. My guess is the majority of people on this board don't have or want vans which is pretty telling also.

theo2709

I've said it before: GET A GRIP, PEOPLE!

These are the very definition of a "stopgap" model. The platform will be around for 4 model years, MAX. The Pontiac and perhaps Saturn versions will be replaced before that. By MY 2009 every van will be either redesigned for the Lambda platform, or be replaced with a different Lambda vehicle.

alpha01

"I've said it before: GET A GRIP, PEOPLE!

These are the very definition of a "stopgap" model. The platform will be around for 4 model years, MAX."

Maybe you should get a grip. You call them "stopgap" but 4 MODEL YEARS is practically an entire "generation" for the Ody and Sienna, which run 5-6 MY product cycles.

But at least theres some consolation that by MY 2009, all vans will ride the thoroughly modern Lambda platform. Hmmmn....... by that time, based on the models now available... every single one of Toyota's current 17 offerings will have been redesigned (or cancelled, as in the expected case of the poor little ECHO).

~alpha

jchan2

Honda will have redesigned their whole product line too. The Odyssey has lasted six years without many changes though.

theo2709

http://www.gminsidenews.com/naiasprv.htm

jchan2

The Uplander looks more SUV like than the Relay, Terrazza or the Montana SV6, but my personal stying favorite is the Montana SV6. (closely followed by the Relay and the Uplander, with the Terrazza being too gaudy, chrome filled and wood filled for me)

dindak

Montana is the best one for sure. Brushed aluminum is very nice inside. The "PhatNoise system" sounds very cool, a 40G hard drive for media storage! Great idea. I see it will also have "Optional seat-mounted side impact air bags", so all the GM bashers can stop with SAB argument against these vans.

GM should have done more with the nose styling though. All these vans are too much the same. A little more money could have given them each a truly distinct look. Oh well.. badge engineering I guess.

dindak

I see remote starter option also. Cool!

jchan2

looks very nice on the Montana. PhatNoise and RemoteStart may be the only things that are unique to the GM vans.

dindak

And best fuel economy in class.

wsag26

I like this 'PhatNoise' option on Chevy & Pontiac minivans. It has a 40 gb harddrive and allows you to store over 9,000 songs, and 4 movies. It looks cool. Its also removable. It is about the size of a wallet. It is pretty cool. Even though many will disagree about the front of the Uplander & SV6, personally I like those two better than Relay & Terraza, the features will make them much better of a competitor.

rctennis3811

Got any data to back that "best in class" fuel economy?

dindak

Current model is best in class. New model will likely have better mileage since it does in the Malibu with the same 3.5L.

http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/chevrolet/venture/vent_o- - verview.html

rctennis3811

But isn't it also heavier???

wsag26

I like this 'PhatNoise' option on Chevy & Pontiac minivans. It has a 40 gb harddrive and allows you to store over 9,000 songs, and 4 movies. It looks cool. Its also removable. It is about the size of a wallet. It is pretty cool. Even though many will disagree about the front of the Uplander & SV6, personally I like those two better than Relay & Terraza, the features will make them much better of a competitor.

rctennis3811

Yea PhatNoise in really cool, but I bet a lot of parents will be asking what PHAT means. LOL! Still, that's the only reason I can think of to buy this CSV so far.

dindak

rctennis3811 : Yep.. the new Malibu is heavier than the old also though.

wsag26 : Buick and Pontiac look the best. Hopefully they will have the short wheel base version at the Toronto show.

theo2709

Whoah hold on there. I thought there was no SWB version...?

Unless it's Canada only.

jchan2

I like the Montana SV6 and the Relay the best. The Uplander's front looks too much like a bulky block and the Terraza has too much chrome and plood.

alpha01

We've been down this road before. Maybe in Canada its true, but NOT IN THE USA. The SIENNA IS THE MINIVAN with the highest EPA figures in the USA, and also produces 45 hp more than the current GM triplets, as well as 32 extra foot pounds. ADDITIONALLY, the SIENNA (not any GM poop) was named the best minivan by Car and Driver, in its "5 Best Trucks" article, March 2004.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the USA market is far larger than the Canadian one. Finally, the Sienna (and not the GM minivans) meet ULEV-II standards in the USA. So, in terms of the larger USA minivan market, the Sienna holds top EPA ratings and class leading emissions ratings (while simulatenously sparing its occupants from certain fatal injury in offset collisions).

~alpha

rctennis3811

More people will obviously go for the Sienna.

regfootball

not only that, but people spending 300-600 USD a month on a new van don't really care if they save 2 mpg if the rear seat has a hump when its folded.

dindak

theo2709 : Short wheelbase is Canada only I think and only on Uplander and Montana.

alpha : Whatever.. new vans should top still Sienna. Current vans are officially rated #1 here by the government agency that rates cars.

reg : Same old.. yawn.

ccgegg

I agree the Montana and Uplander look less minivan-like than the other 2. IMO, it's all in the design of the rear half which makes the difference. I just wish they all could have positioned the sliding door track just below the window to hide it somewhat. Oh well, not bad for a first attempt at a rugged looking minivan. I'll give this a few years and some manufacturer will get it completely right. At that point, I'll buy.

I hope these sell well so the competition follows suit and the currently boring-looking minivans become a thing of the past.

tomcat630

Someone was whining about Satunr not selling "unique" cars anymore. Well at this point no body really cares. The SL was nothing special other than the plastic body and the touchy feely dealers.

But they have not been profitable and they are not a charity organizationa and they need product. They can't afford to make a full line of "unique" cars/trucks just to please the few fans who went to the Spring Hill for reunions.

Saturn dealers now mark down the sticker prices to compete, so they are not going to be "forced" to sell at MSRP, and need product.

just4fun2

the Pontiac. Great looking, not like other mini vans. 9000 song capacity, nice touch!

wheelz4

The rear half of all 4 vans is identical. And since the headlights are identical as well, basically if comes down to what grill/features you like the best. I still think all 4 of these look kinda awkward......the proportions are just off....SUVish front 1/3 welded to minivanish rear 2/3rds......maybe they'll look better in person, or in the Canuck "shorty" versions, although the shorties don't get the rear-side window treatment that's supposed to make us think these are SUV's.

rctennis3811

"alpha : Whatever.. new vans should top still Sienna. Current vans are officially rated #1 here by the government agency that rates cars."

Please, explain on how they would top the "best minivan" aka Sienna or-(tied with Odyssey). Wow, I can't believe the Canadian agency ranks the current GM midvans higher than the Sienna, Odyssey, or even Quest!!

alpha01

Dindak meant in terms of MPG. The Canadian gov't rates the GMs higher than the USA leading Sienna. In all other aspects, its pretty accepted that GMs current- and possibly these next "generation" models- are inferior to the competition.

~alpha

regfootball

phatnoise.....nice option, but an iPod w/ mp3 input into the stereo will do the same thing.

dindak

rctennis3811 / alpha : The mileage numbers all match the Canadian corporate web sites also. GM vans are tops here. Check toyota.ca, gmcanada.com and mazda.ca for yourself. In reality, I'm sure Sienna and Venture/Montana are about the same in either country.

reg : Since when does an ipod do video? Don't think so!

wheelz : I need a shorter WB van / SUV, full size won't fit in the garage.

bretaa

>"I've said it before: GET A GRIP, PEOPLE!
>
>These are the very definition of a "stopgap"
>model. The platform will be around for 4 model
>years, MAX. The Pontiac and perhaps Saturn
>versions will be replaced before that. By MY
>2009 every van will be either redesigned for the
>Lambda platform, or be replaced with a different
>Lambda vehicle."

As has been stated amply by others, other makers whole lines will be replaced by then. And why should someone with $20-35,000 spend their hard earned money (2nd biggest personal purchase) on these "very definition of a stopgap" of a minivan when there are so many other competitors that are better and are THE REAL THING and not stopgaps?

Bret

dindak

Nobody is pointing a gun to your head, relax.

ateixeira

Vans like the Quest are a risk if you're the first to buy one, i.e. the v1.0 syndrome. Nissan really stuck their neck out. They'll polarize buyers. I think it's already be discounting heavily.

We look at the hot Sienna and it's easy to say "do what they did", but Nissan tried, invested a lot of money, and hasn't had the same success. It's not that easy.

-juice

dindak

Given limited resources, freshening these vans and trying to find a niche of some kind is probably the best that can be expected. People are quick to criticize GM for these vans but like all of us, we have to live with in our means. Saddled with "legacy costs", GM likely does not have the money to make all of it's new product, ALL new. These vans with the SUV look could also very well be a trial balloon for the all new vans coming in a few years.

I will judge them when I see them in 2 weeks. Can't wait for the auto show. Its better than Christmas!

just4fun2

These new GM vans might be easier for people to drive since the hood and fenders might be more visible. Easier to drive could be more important than having a rear seat system that doesn't fold completely flat.

regfootball

can't wait for the big minivan comparo in C/D.

Can't beleive I just said that.

it will be RIP city.

to GM's credit the interior of these vans does appear to be improved.

wsag26

I think we all need to get a grip. Yeah, I don't care if the Sienna has higher EPA ratings than the GM minivans. (Not like I don't care about our enviornment). But, when have we counted on the EPA to protect the environment. I mean, we have gas-guzzlers out there with 5 mpg, and all those EPA-guys are driving them.

HAHA! I don't even care if the Lamborghini has the best EPA ratings. I don't believe em'.

jchan2

the government gives huge tax breaks for people who buy that brand new Ford Excursion and nearly no tax break if they choose a more efficient Ford Freestar. (not to say I WOULD pick a Freestar, just to be used as an example)

alpha01

I imagine a minivan comparo is coming up soon in Car and Driver, that said, they just named the Sienna the best minivan for 2004, citing its superior interior flexibility, strong, refined, and economical engine, and ride and handling which surprised them, being better than the Quest and Ody. No mention of the lame Freestar/Monterey, but they were indeed tested for the 5 Best judging.

~alpha