Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I went to NAIAS and sat in a Grand Caravan with Stow-and-go, not a Relay. GM's vans were closed up.

    I went on 1/7 during the industry preview days, and begged the DCX guy to let me sit in it. It was locked up but he would open one door at a time to demonstrate the 2nd and 3rd rows.

    I sat in it and was surprised, it's actually comfortable in the 2nd row.

    DCX did a great job. They spent $400k IIRC but it really shows. Best mid-cycle improvement from any minivan ever. I'd still give the Sienna the nod for the best redesign, though.

    -juice
  • svevarsvevar Member Posts: 160
    ...except that DC's "same-old, same-old" exterior is still better looking than pretty much any other van out there, IMO.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The DCX exteriors look good, I think they should now focus on improving their drivetrains.

    -juice
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I think they are far and away the best looking vans. Ergonomics are excellent also!

    Drive trains are good but could be better. Still, I think they are right there with the best over all.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    jchan2: I didn't sit in a Relay nor did I go to NAIAS.

    dindak: I agree, the DC vans are great-looking vehicles! I kinda wish they had added the 3.5L from the 300M though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Autoweek has the other version of the vans up on their site (Montana).

    Pure badge engineering.

    -juice
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Yep!
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    couldn't be any worse. So, lets look at this another way. The investment made on these vehicles is probably very little in comparison to the Chrysler updates.
    I think capacity at the plant is around 240k units per year. I would imagine that with four versions of this van selling that many per year should be attainable.
    So, maybe GM won't make much profit (or any) on these vehicles but the plant will be operating at capacity, hopefully without shutdowns. From what I have heard that plant employees get paid around 90% of their pay during a shutdown.
    So, maybe from a profit standpoint this move is ok?
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    yeah, but that doesn't that doesn't take into account how to best please the market.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    GM is clearly just trying to hold their market share and I think they are also at the same time trying this "SUV look" test balloon out to see if it flies at all.

    Terazza seems like the best one but it will also be the pricey one. Still want to see one in person before I decide on the looks. Going to the Toronto show 1 week today!
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    The 15% is how much a mileage increase over the Freestar that GM would need to match Toyota which has the best ratings. The current GM vans are about 400 pounds lighter than most of the other newer vans. If they stiffen it to ride and handle like the competition then it will likely weigh the same unless GM pulls some engineering magic out of its hat. How they will accomplish all this with a 3.5L 200 hp engine is a mystery to just about everyone.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    The same "magic" that gave the Malibu the best sedan mileage ratings?

    300-400 lbs is not that much and given the current vans are at or near the top, I see no reason why these cans can't be tops with an even more efficient 3.5L engine. Ford (unlike GM) has never been known for efficient engines.

    Maybe it won't happen,who knows. If these vans aren't tops, they will be darn close.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Not really near the top. More like above average. GM did tell us that they added a stiffenings around the structure, thicker doors, bigger side-impact bars in the doors, and more insulation. That should add up to a lot more pounds.

    But as dindak said, we'll have to see.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    The grilles are different at least!
  • setzersetzer Member Posts: 127
    wow Pontiac is not holding back. First with the debut of the Aztek a few years ago, then the Vibe, this year the new Grand Prix, the GTO, next year the Grand Am replacement the G6, this Montana SV6, the Pursuit (even tho it is not going to be released in the States), and then the Solstice. That's amazing, i guess GM is really going to try to make Pontiac a lot more profitable.
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    Jchan, the interiors look a bit different also. It's not a lot but it's something.

    Setzer, I never would have considered a Pontiac a few years ago. I'm not a huge fan of the new Montana, but I love my 2004 Grand Prix!
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    looks better to me than the Uplander.
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    I don't think that minivans are a thing of beauty, just a utility vehicle. When I drive my convertible, people yell out "nice car", never had that happen when I am in a minivan.

    Of course, the convertible doesn't have side air curtains for protection, so I guess most people would never drive such an unsafe vehicle, that's why they are driving minivans.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    my friend did get a few stares when he rolled down all the windows and opened the sunroof and blasted the stereo in his Sienna. (the first in the neighborhood)
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    for drawing attention to his minivan by , look at me, look at me! I just wouldn't feel satisfied when I have to fish for complements.

    Minivans just happen to be second to basic transportation, the first is walking.

    GM is trying to change the looks of their new minivan to add a little spice to the choice. Did they succeed?, only time will tell.
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    YA... It was likely the stereo, not the looks of the Sienna.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I hope it was the stereo and not the Sienna, because if it was the Sienna, the people staring would either be Camry owners gawking at the all new Camry looking thing out there on the road or they're either people who knew the Sienna was coming out and haven't seen a Sienna in person yet.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    OK, this is turning into a weird conversation. The people were staring at the guy because of the radio, the end.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    Minivans are appliances, not "look at me" fancy styled cars. People are more interested in the interiors and seating. They don't care if the main bodyshell is "brand new looking".

    At the Chicago Auto Show, most of the minivans on the floor were being looked over, people were trying out interior features. The thoery that "minivans are dying off" is false.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I predict they'll make a small come back, actually.

    -juice
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    Minivans numbers can't keep growing and growing, there will be dips in sales as time goes on. Just because numbers maybe declining from the high is no reason to write them off as dead.

    When gasoline hits $5.00 bucks a gallon and is is in short supply (only able to purchase 10 gallons every other day) in the US, then people might look for something smaller and fuel efficient.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    addresses the new GM midvan's faults and says that their only main competitor will be the faltering Freestar. LOL It's sad really.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    There's been a lot of press and internet posters who claim that "the minivan is dead" and that full size SUV's are what families want.
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    I missed that issue where they tested the new GM vans. Is it on sale now!
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    there's a preview of the Relay in the latest issue, March 2004.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    I never said they tested it. Read my entire post (which was really short) before you comment. ;)
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    post and understood it well. MT need to test the vans before trashing them. Lighten up, this is all for fun here, no prizes or free trips to the Super Bowl.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    Yup, they trashed the concept pretty heavily, but they weren't as bad as Automobile Mag, which I recall in their preview pretty much accuse GM of lying about the "SUV" concept... It's plain for all to see...

    - Bret

    PS: Gotta love MT's new guts in calling things as they are now. I canceled my MT subscription a while ago since their "reviews" just seemed to be suck-up rewrites of automaker press releases. They never seemed to have anything bad to say and the negatives were always poo-poo'ed. Maybe it's time to reup with them. Good job DED!
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    that MT is finally even RANKING the vehicles they test, something that even CR has done for years now....

    ~alpha
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    MT has new editors, I am not sure of the name, but one of them was at C&D before.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Why trash something if you haven't tested it yet?
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    MT wasn't really trashing it without driving it. They were trashing it for its feature content, including seats that don't fold entirely and more. They also said that 200HP/220lb.ft. isn't enough when the competitors are packing more. They did cite that the GC/TC will compete against the imports because of its thorough renovation, but the GM midvans look like they will only compete with the faltering Freestar.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I agree.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    The "Imports" are built in Alabama, Mississippi and Indiana. Many of the "American" minivans are built in Canada.
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    In one respect Motor Trend is right. The 3rd best selling van family (GM) will always compete with the 4th best selling van family (Ford).

    But with a dramatic mechanical improvements, a new exterior, and an additional sales outlet, Isn't possible GM will close the 7,000ish unit gap with Honda for 2nd in 2005? Saturn sells 80,000 Vues a year, for a brand that has only had them for two years. Dosen't that indicate some drawing power, which would increase GM's output? Buick should provide more sales the Oldsmobile, and more then they take from Pontiac, for additional output. I can't imagine a better van sold in more places to sell less then before.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    ...but Consumer Reports just gave it a lower overall rating than the outgoing GM triplets. Thats really sucks. They rated it higher than only the Kia Sedona.

    PS- The Freestar/Monterey now carry a $3000 rebate, after debuting just six months ago. By contrast, the Toyota Sienna, which debuted 11 months ago, still sells near sticker and tops the Wall Street Journal's monthly "Hot off the Lot" Chart for vehicles with lowest days in inventory.

    ~alpha
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    That's correct alpha. Ford is hopefully learning their lesson now. GM is apparently about to learn the same thing...

    - Bret
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    I saw the Relay and the Terazza (Chevy and Pontiac versions were not there or I missed something). Relay was ok but the Terazza was really nice in my opinion. Very sleek and upscale looking with a beauty deep red paint job and nice rims. I was expecting not to like the new GM van but I came away thinking it was indeed a decent vehicle and the interior looked good also. I'm not a van guy at all but the Terazza is one of the best I have seen.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Went to the local Chrysler dealer today since I heard over on the GC/TC forum that the 05 TCs are now in stock. I thought the rear bench would be uncomfortable because of the Stow n Go feature. Well, it's not. The seats seem a little bit more supportive on the sides and the dash material is HIGHLY improved. The fake wood though is not my thing. Interestingly, that Chrysler/Dodge dealer is also a Chevrolet dealer and they put every minivan/van they offer in one section of the showroom. I wonder if the Uplander's seats will be as supportive as DCs. Hopefully, they will be.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    at least now the Sedona has a competitor just as bad as it is- the Freestar!
  • momstruck1momstruck1 Member Posts: 206
    flat folding like the toyota how it rests in the bottom? or is it like the curent 50/50 split like the venture that folds flat and just sits there.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    The Uplander/Terraza/Relay/SV6 won't have the folding seat as in the Sienna that conceals itself. It's the same seat as in the current Venture that splits 50/50 and just sits there...a couple of inches above the load floor.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    I like to watch your posts... and I know already that you love Toyota... and you're right, they make excellent products.

    But to compare the new Sienna (which you say, is 11 months old) to a Freestar (6 months) while you know that Freestar is just an updated Windstar, is just not fair.

    When Ford will bring out the new minivan in 2006 built on the Mazda6 platform, I'm sure it will be more competitive to the Sienna. I know it's a little late then, but you got my point.

    Sienna is new from scratch. Freestar is built on a 1994 platform. It's not comparable, IMHO.

    However, the new GM's are also built on an older design, but it is much better than Ford's.

    Keep on with your good posts :)
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    What's so bad about the Freestar? It now has the magic seat, which IMHO is the main must-have feature for modern vans (a few years ago it was the driver-side sliding door, which all vans have now). True, the engine has been around the block a few times, but aside from that, what's the big deal?

    -Andrew L
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