Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

ateixeira

Let's see how the EPA rates the new GM vans and also how they compare head-to-head in the car mags' new reviews.

Sienna has done well in some cases, they had the best CR average for instance. Edmunds' data seems contradictory so I wouldn't conclude anything based on that.

-juice

vanman1

We get about 26-27 on highway driving on our 2004 Montana Sport, exactly as advertised. Pretty impressive, we are quite happy.

From what I have heard about the 3.5L, the new vans could be even better.

Kirstie_H

Van Gas Mileage Discussion

rfb

what is the main differance between the buick terraza and the saturn relay ?

rctennis3811

The Terraza has a better suspension configuration and "QuietTuning" with more chrome accents all around. Other than that, they're the same vehicle.

jchan2

the Terrazza's price tag is slightly higher than the Relay.

dan165

Terraza looks a bit better in my eye and I think it will be a little more luxurious as a standard vehicle. Otherwise there is little difference.

GM should drop the Rendezvous 3.6L in the Terazza and make it a real premium van.

ateixeira

I was gonna say - the badge. ;-)

Ditto on the 3.6l.

-juice

briancrna

I was looking forward to buying a 2005 Uplander but I see they do not even OFFER curtain airbags in the rear of vehicle. Get with the program, GM!! Almost EVERY minivan maker offers this. I guess I won't use my GM card points after all- what a waste.

dan165

Might want to wait. If you must have the option, I have heard it may be avaiable mid year or for 06 model.

I don't think it's that big a deal but hey, lots of other vans if you need the curtains.

vanman1

Saw the pictures of the new Oddy today. Touring edition looks way pricey! Not bad but no better than anything else out there. Still think my 2004 Montana looks better and it costs 10K less at least!

That said, the interior of the Oddy sure beats even the new GM vans from what I can see.

ateixeira

265hp, 20/28 mpg, run flats, I dunno, looks good to me...

-juice

jchan2

I think the Odyssey has 255 horsepower, not 265. But Honda says the Touring model has a tweaked suspension compared with the EX-L model.

samnoe

"That said, the interior of the Ody sure beats even the new GM vans from what I can see..."

Not to my opinion. I think the new Ody's interior will be far behind any other van in terms of design. Sure, quality and fit-n-finish will be top notch as always, but design??

dan165

I like the interior of the Oddy, but of course the top of the line dash with a NAV is what you see in the pictures. The exterior is much the same. The DOD feature is an option, not standard. That means all the base models (probably 50%+) have the same 3.5L as the old Oddy. Lots of hype for the most part unless you pay $$ for the cool stuff. Better off getting a clear out 04 Oddy, they have slapped incentives on those now.

Should be interesting to see how the GM vans are in comparison. Seems like most new vans are evolutions of the last generation vs. revolutions. Not sure why GM changed the names though.

nematode

I cannot comment on the fuel economy of the FWD version but I can tell you that the AWD version of the Sienna is nowhere near EPA estimates. Its 11-14city 17-20highway.

ateixeira

I stand corrected. Still, we're looking at 200hp on these GM vans.

Ody EX-L and up get DoD, but you'd be surprised, most Odys come loaded up. That's how people want Hondas. A dealer had 100 Pilots and only 7 of them were the base LX model, for instance.

-juice

jchan2

The Hondas are better deals loaded up compared to the Toyota- how can you get a loaded up Toyota Highlander Limited for $33K, including a Navigation System? But I personally think the Toyotas are better deals at the low end- Sienna CEs have a lower price and more or less the same equipment as the 04 Odyssey LX.

rctennis3811

There are exceptions. Take the Sienna for instance. People are paying upwards of 35K for loaded XLEs and XLE Limiteds because they are so much better than the competition in terms of fit/finish, feature content, and overall execution. Plus, the Sienna has one of the lowest days-on-lot rating. I expect the same for the Odyssey - people will pay the price for such an exceptional product.

jchan2

the other vans (Freestar, Uplander, Caravan, Quest, Sedona) will be there to take the orders of those who are frustrated with waiting for an Odyssey or dealing with a Toyota dealer.

samnoe

Consumer Reports this month (Oct) previews all models new for 2005. Of course, one of them includes GM's new crossover vans. Here is CR's take:

"The new styling of these freshened GM minivans can't disguise that they are seven-year-old minivans that are not at the top of their category. The same V6 engine (however) does a good job in the Chevy Malibu..."

They forget that the new Odyssey will be built on the current platform, too, which is 6-years old. However, this platform has been rated at the top of the minivans, so it's OK for Honda to keep using it.

jchan2

Any estimates on how much the Relay will cost?

setzer

my local Saturn dealer is starting to post ads in the paper of the new Relay. It's funny, because according to them it's a Family Utility Vehicle (FUV..??) not a minivan.

jchan2

I attended this summer, they referred to the Relay as "Saturn's first Family Recreational Vehicle."

dan165

More than 1/3 of the Oddys I see driving around are base models with plastic wheel covers. Just because the lot does not have them, doesn't mean everyone is getting top end vans. The vast majority of families can't afford that.

ateixeira

I still don't think that matters a whole lot. Odyssey has substance, what's inside is what counts, powertrain especially.

Sprinkling a CSV moniker and nice alloys on a GM van don't really make it a more substantive vehicle.

-juice

hansienna

Is that why there are so many Odyssey transmission failures reported here in the Town Hall?

ateixeira

Last I heard it was 1-2%, so no, there aren't all that many.

-juice

dan165

New GM vans have a new power train?

Oddys are probably going to be the class leader but it comes with a price as it does with the Sienna. Chrysler, Mazda, Ford and GM will offer better value for families on more of a budget. I don't see this changing. I know my sister in law's family bought a Caravan because they could not afford a Sienna / Oddy. I'm sure they are not alone.

hansienna

I have owned many vehicles of many brands and experienced the best reliability with Toyota. I now have a 2002 Chrysler T&C, a 2001 Chevrolet Blazer LT 4WD, and a 1993 Ford F-150 4 WD. Toyota vehicles also cost the most for parts and service.
     I can afford a new Odyssey or Sienna but the used 2002 Chrysler T&C offered me more nice features for half the money of a new, base 2005 Odyssey LX. I got the 2001 Chevrolet Blazer LT in 2001 and traded in a 1999 Chevrolet Tracker (Suzuki) because it was a good deal.
     I see no reason to purchase any vehicle just because CR's biased opinion rates it as their "Best Buy".

tamu2002

" I see no reason to purchase any vehicle just because CR's biased opinion rates it as their "Best Buy"."

Good point! But unfortunately like many other things in life, people tend to let others' opinions dictate what they do. Well, they're spending their own money, who can blame them.

ateixeira

I see one solid reason - resale values. If you buy new, you make up the extra money you paid when you sell it, and then some.

I bet if you did the math you'd find in some situations the Honda/Toyota vans actually cost less. Someone here bought a '99 Ody and then sold it 2 years later for what he paid, 100% resale, because demand was so high.

Free van for 2 years.

-juice

dan165

I don't think CR is biased but I do think their methodology and data collection does have flaws.

Keep in mind also, the difference between the most reliable vehicle and number 10 is likely only a few problems per 100 at the most. Buy what you like in most cases I always say, in the end even a Honda or Toyota could give you trouble.

jchan2

They're decent, but nothing special. If you're looking for a great deal on a decent car, shop the various GM brands. They'll give you an OK car with a massive rebate. (some models)

montanafan

http://media.gm.com has a press release dated September 10, 2004 that includes the base prices of the new family.

Quickly looking a the Montana, it looks like the SV6 is around $1,500 less then the 2005 Montana. And the SV6 includes the interior/exterior/engine/mechanical upgrades: a DVD system, OnStar and one year or service, ABS, MP3, 4 wheel discs, 17" tires-wheels.

jchan2

I wonder how much the Relay/Montana would cost loaded.

montanafan

Edmunds usually is very quick once GM releases pricing info to get it on the site. Bet its here before next week ends.

hansienna

Do you really think the person who bought the 1999 Odyssey when it was 2 years old for the same price it cost new would have received 100 % of the cost in 2003?
     Many new "much sought after" vehicles had great resale the first year or 2. Many GM vehicles became "classics" after they were 50, 60, or 70 years old and have appreciated in value.
     How many old Honda's have become classics in the same manner that many GM vehicles have become?
     BUT...how many people buy a vehicle for resale value? Don't most of us buy a vehicle to drive and enjoy?

stever

My morning (Gannett) newspaper had a story about the Relay anchoring the Auto section - all they said was that base pricing was predicted to be $24,000.

Steve, Host

jchan2

The GM Media website (media.gm.com) has released base pricing information for the following vans:
Buick Terrazza CX
Buick Terrazza CXL
Chevrolet Uplander Base
Chevrolet Uplander LS
Chevrolet Uplander LT
Pontiac Montana SV6 1SA
Pontiac Montana SV6 1SB
Saturn Relay 2
Saturn Relay 3
However, the build and price feature on the Buick, Chevrolet, Pontiac and Saturn websites have not been updated yet. So, none of us know exactly how much a loaded up Terrazza, Uplander, Montana SV6 or Relay costs. And that's what I'd like to know. To get a price range to compare it with the Ford Freestar/Mercury Monterey.

ateixeira

I don't think that has happened to any GM vehicle since the early 70s, with perhaps a few rare exceptions.

And a van?

Residuals remain quite strong for the Ody, horrible for the current GM vans. Actually I agree with the poster above that a used one might be a bargain in a couple of years.

I tend to keep cars for about 7 years, I think there is still an appreciable difference in residual values when you compare a Venture to an Odyssey, likely as much as the difference you paid when they were new (perhaps more).

-juice

jchan2

I used to keep cars for ten years, 150,000 miles. Now, they're traded in at around 100,000 miles, regardless of age. I just get tired of a car after living with it for 100,000 miles.

starlightmica

The model mix down south is quite different - I read that US transaction prices are higher than in Canada. There are hardly any LX's in my neck of the woods. Same thing applies for the Mazda MPV - when I was visiting BC, saw lots of MPV DX's. You can't even get a DX here in the states anymore.

Agreed, the deal still matters. I think Ford and GM are set to sell about 100K minivans each this year, thanks to the hefty rebates.

motownusa

That's pretty much the only way the can sell their product. You can buy a Mercury Grand Marquis in my area for less than 20 grand.

dan165

Honda gets more money for their vans because they have better quality materials, better features and a better engine. GM was trying to get the same money for less product so of course they have to slap on the big incentives. The new vans are better and close up the gap a bit. Further, MSRP prices have fallen and content has gone up which means they won't have to discount as much in theory. I guess we will have to see how the vans come out in the fall.

jchan2

Just walk into a Honda dealer- you don't see a lot of Civic Value Packages, Odyssey LXs, Pilot LXs, and base CR-Vs with 2WD.

mattw8

I just thought I would let everyone know that I got to take a quick look at a Relay on Sunday. They had a loaded one at the Columbus Zoo for Saturn owners day. I don't own a Saturn or any domestic GM vehicle ('99 Saab 9-5 wgn), but I walked away relatively impressed with the product. Here's a list of some things I liked and some of my concerns.

Exterior: Styling was handsome enough for a minivan, FUV,...polished 17" wheels were nice. It's smaller than competitors which could be a good thing or bad thing depending on your needs.

Interior: Materials quality is definitely better than the current GM vans, but not quite as nice as my Saab. No more Fisher Price looking radio etc... The plood still looks like plood but it's not bad. They have those folding cargo trays in the 1st and 2nd rows which is nice. Those seats were felt comfortable. Plenty of storage space around the passengers. The 3rd row legroom looked fine for kids, tight for adults. I did not sit back there however. There seemed to be a cargo organizer installed behind the 3rd row bench which limited cargo capacity and made a higher liftover. Vans with magic seats have the extra foot of depth when the seat is used. I don't know if this tray is an option. A plus is that the seats do fold completely flat.

Missing features: no power tailgate, and 2nd row 3 passenger bench (Uplander/Montana to have this?)

Overall, it appears to be worth a test drive. It might be a little small if you have a large, younger family: 2+ kids in carseats, strollers, etc. It would probably be the perfect size if you had 2 older children.

Sorry about the long post.

Matt

vanman1

Great post. Glad to hear the van looked pretty good. The dash is the only big down fall of our 2004 Montnana so if that's fixed I think that is a good thing.

The van shouldn't be much smaller, it's just a little more narrow than most vans.

dan165

I have seen a lot of articles as of late giving GM a lot of credit for putting out something a little different, a van with an SUV look. Judging by a few looks inside, it sounds like it's not as bad as some people were making it out to be.

alpha01

There certainly is nothing like a reskin and the marketing folks conjuring up a faux category, lol. Even for the budget conscious, Im not sure a compelling reason exists to buy this minivan. The new Ody and Sienna will be dynamically far superior, and the 2005 DCX minis more versatile and similarly priced, and the overweight Kia Sedona is still cheaper.

Somebody fill in the competitive advantage, because Im missing it....

~alpha