Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza



  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    it costs money to buy Siennas (which are already in demand) and plaster a Chevy badge on them!!!! Plus, how will GM explain to Toyota when Bob Lutz walks into a Toyota dealer and says I want 100,000 Siennas by next week??????
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197

    Maybe things are different here in the States. Grand Caravans sticker much more than comparable Hondas or Toyotas except for the top line luxury models which are all laughably overpriced. Once you compare comparable equipment, factor in the rebates, dicker on the sticker etc... I found that Honda is cheapest (LX and EX) Chrysler slightly more and Toyota slightly higher yet, but all within $1000. The only really overpriced van is the Freestar which is surprising since it doesn't compare overall to the class leaders. All this competition again makes you wonder what GM is thinking. What if they made Lutz drive a Outdatedlander for a year?
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    Ugh GM is so lame. The Malibu BARELY has enough power, yet they think the vans can be acceptable, let alone more "SUV-like". I bet these vans will be fat and bloated, because they had to add so much to an already not-so-lean platform.

    Maybe the Saturn/Chevy could get by with the 3500 standard, but at least have an upgrade to the HV 3900 (what's another few months?). The Terraza should have the HF 3600 standard. Pontiac should not have a van at all, but since they do it should be HV 3900 only.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    i'm not gonna hold my breath for anything spectacular here......just will be interesting to see if its AZTEK II
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    actually, those are pictures of the Japanese Odyssey...but the Honda Concept ASM is the preproduction model of our next Odyssey...but i agree with u: those ARE nice interiors.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    Funny how for years the cry was "Japanese cars are more fule effiecient, power isn't important"

    Now it's "Japanese cars are more powerful", completely forgetting how important MPG is.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Uplander: 3500 standard/ HV3900 Optional ($1000)
    Relay: 3500 Standard/ HV3900 optional ($1000)
    Montana SV6: HV3900 standard
    Terraza: HF3600 standard
    There we go. I think Saturn should have some sort of unique motor since it is supposed to be different than other GM models. (maybe a diesel???) Let's hope when I car shop again soon that I have a reason to consider the Relay over the Uplander.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Actually, promoting those links simply goes to show the risks of establishing an opinion based on pictures.

    Minivans do not sell well in the more prosperous Japanese but highly dense urban centers because garages are made under houses and buildings, not beside them as here. Minivans often do not fit under the very low garage door line.

    The Japanese Oddysey is designed with a very low roof. Fine for a country where people spend far less time in their vehicle and adults have an average height some 3" lower than in the US.

    Most US mini-van buyers would at first think the Japanese Oddysey looks cool, but would very soon start complaining about the claustrophobic interior.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    dur, maybe u didnt read my post that the Odyssey in the pictures is the JAPANESE Odyssey which will NEVER come here stateside..the next generation AMERICAN Odyssey (the kind with the sliding doors) is Honda's ASM (which was a concept at that auto show) can check out some pictures in's auto show section
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    in case anyone didnt notice, our AMERICAN Odyssey (with sliding doors) is sold as the Honda LaGreat in Japan, not sold as Odyssey in Japan!!!!
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    the new Japanese Odyssey is under extremely high demand in its initial release.

    Americans would grow to like the slightly lower vans over time. Its not like they are as low as cars. They appear to have quite efficient interior layouts and the quality of the interiors appears to be quite good.

    Compare that to the interior quality of your typical domestic van.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    One of the complaints about the Murano is that it feels claustrophobic to US drivers. The Murano buyers are probably mostly single or childless people.

    Minivan people are family people. These are the people buying ever larger homes ever farther from their place of work. They bring everything but the kitchen sink with them wherever they go with the kids.

    They are not looking for smaller interior spaces. They want larger spaces.

    The Japanese Oddysey is designed for people who live in crowded cities in very small spaces, commute with mass transit, and travel very light. Someone in the design business should comprehend that a design for the Japanese market would be a compromise for such a different US market.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    I was not responding to your post, and I said that the van is the Japanese model. My post that you made the dur response to (this from someone who did not realize the Cadillac auto tranny is also used by BMW) was a very reasoned response to why the swell looking Japanese design would not fit here. I do not get you criticism.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    not everyone wants a big fat bloated whale.

    why do you think the resale for the original Odyssey Oasis is so good?

    Some folks want this, not a full minivan, not as squat as a wagon. three row seating. decent looks.

    there is a niche for everything. The Wish, Grandis, Japanese Odyssey...all very desirable.

    not all family people pack up the entire house every time they drive around. Some want a van for occasional furniture shopping or the instance you may need the third seat.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Back to reality. The intial Ody/Oasis NEVER sold well, because they were far too small. Ditto the current MPV. Ditto the Mitsu Expo/Expo LRVs. Ditto the Nissan Access, Nissan Stanza Wagon, etc.
    Finally, the new Sienna is much more successful than the old one because it is MUCH bigger.

    I tend to agree with you, but the simple fact is that people dont want small minivans. Those who want small minivans, are buying midsize car based SUVs if anything.

  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    If I ever get the money and the mini-minivans ever come out, I may consider keeping my maxi-van Odyssey and getting maybe a Latitude or Wish, for those around town jaunts to the local grocery store and picking up the kids.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    a van with some style and speed may hit the market by surprise hopefully someday.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    well, it looks like vans WONT be getting smaller any time soon, just look at the new Quest and Sienna!! so what if the Japanese Odyssey is super-sleek, just wait for the Honda ASM! wow! looks like the new GM vans will have to play much harder to compete with a van that uses the same engine found in the 265HP MDX!
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    a minivan that's truely a minivan. I mean small. The current mai-vans are midsize vans in my book, as they're not as big as the E150 or the Express.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    in the US want the Japanese Oddysey to make one US legal.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    AK5 Air bags, dual-stage, frontal, driver and right front passenger

    C60 Air conditioning, front manual
    Console, center storage, open

    K34 Cruise control, electronic with set and resume speed
    Door locks, child security, rear, sliding doors
    Door locks, power programmable , includes lockout protection and delayed locking

    B37 Floormats, carpeted, front and rear

    UH8 Instrumentation, analog, includes speedometer, tachometer, coolant temperature, odometer, low oil, fuel and coolant indicators, voltmeter, trip odometer and door ajar

    AU0 Keyless entry, remote
    Lighting, interior, includes theater dimming, front map lights, center and rear cargo dome lamps, and 3rd row reading lamps
    Mirror, inside rearview, manual day/night

    UE1 OnStar, 1-year Safe and Sound Service, includes automatic notification of air bag deployment, emergency services, roadside assistance, stolen vehicle tracking, AccidentAssist, remote door unlock, remote diagnostics, online concierge and remote horn and lights. Drivers can also opt for other available OnStar services, including making and receiving voice-activated, hands-free phone calls with Personal Calling and getting location-based traffic and weather reports with Virtual Advisor
    1 - Visit for system information and details.

    VVL Overhead rail system, includes front and 2nd row lighting
    Power outlet, auxiliary, front, 12-volt
    Safety belts, 3-point, driver and front passenger, height-adjustable with pretensioners on front seats

    ABA Seats, 7-passenger, 2nd row modular buckets (2), 3rd row 50/50 split-folding bench

    US8 Sound system, ETR AM/FM stereo with CD player and MP3 playback, includes Radio Data System, seek-and-scan, digital clock, auto-tone control, speed-compensated volume, TheftLock and premium front and rear coaxial speakers

    UQ3 Sound system feature, 8-speakers

    U56 Entertainment Package, includes DVD entertainment system with rear audio controls, headphone jacks and remote control
    Steering column, Tilt-Wheel

    N30 Steering wheel, urethane
    Tether anchors, rear, top and lower, for child safety seat, LATCH anchorage system

    D34 Visors, dual with mirrors
    Windows, power, front and 3rd row quarter vent, includes driver express-down

    US6 Antenna, fixed-mast

    T61 Daytime running lamps

    U77 Headlamps, halogen, composite, includes automatic exterior lamp control

    VK3 License plate provision, front

    V59 Luggage rack rails, Black

    DL6 Mirrors, outside rearview, power, Black, folding
    Tire, spare, compact

    QVX Tires, P225/60R17, White outlined-letter

    QR5 Wheels, 17" (43.2 cm) steel with cover
    Battery, Delco maintenance free, includes rundown protection
    Brake/transmission shift interlock, automatic transmission

    JL9 Brakes, 4-wheel antilock, 4-wheel disc

    LX9 Engine, 3.5L 3500 V6 SFI (200 HP [149 kW] @ 5200 rpm, 220 lb.-ft [298.0 N-m] @ 4000 rpm)
    Exhaust, stainless-steel
    Steering, power, rack-and-pinion
    Suspension, front, independent

    FE1 Suspension, Soft Ride - FWD, rear, twist axle

    FE3 Suspension, Performance, rear twist axle, includes (G67) Automatic level control and (V41) Inflator kit

    FE5 Suspension, AWD, independent rear, includes (G67) Automatic level control and (V41) Inflator kit

    MX0 Transmission, 4-speed automatic, electronically controlled with overdrive
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    Models- FWD/AWD CX CXL

    ETR AM/FM stereo with CD/MP3 player, and equalizer, includes Radio Data System, seek-and-scan, digital clock, auto-tone control, speed-compensated volume and TheftLock

    ETR AM/FM stereo with 6-disc CD changer/MP3 player and equalizer, includes Radio Data System, seek-and-scan, digital clock, auto-tone control, speed-compensated volume and TheftLock

    ETR AM/FM stereo with CD player, includes Radio Data System, seek-and-scan, digital clock, auto-tone control, speed-compensated volume and TheftLock Navigation

    Bumpers, front and rear, body-color

    Rear Parking Assist, Ultrasonic, includes rearview LED light bar

    17" (43.2 cm) steel, includes wheel covers
    17" (43.2 cm) aluminum, 10-spoke
    17" (43.2 cm) aluminum, 10-spoke, Chrome Tech

    Engine, 3.5L 3500 V6 SFI (200 HP [149.1 kW] @ 5200 rpm, 220 lb.-ft [298.0 N-m] @ 4000 rpm)


    CX 2nd row captain's chairs and 3rd row 50/50 split-bench Nuance Sandstone Leather-appointed seats with Pompano Cloth insert

    CXL 2nd row captain's chairs and 3rd row 50/50 split-bench Nuance Sandstone Leather-appointed seats

    Colours Medium Gray, Cashmere

    Exterior Colours (All Monotone)-

    Cashmere Metallic
    Ming Blue Metallic
    Emerald Jewel Metallic
    Slatestone Metallic
    Olympic White
    Cardinal Red Metallic
    Platinum Metallic 67U
    Dark Bronzemist Metallic


    Wheelbase 121.10 (3076)
    Overall length 205.00 (5207)
    Body width 75.20 (1910)
    Overall height 72.10 (1831)
    Curb weight, lbs. (kg) FWD 4470 (2028), AWD 4646 (2107)
    Seating capacity 2/2/3
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,134
    Town Hall Members are invited by GM to a Live WebCast announcing the 2005 Buick Terraza and Saturn RELAY!
    Thursday, December 4th - The live webcast will be on from 12pm-1pm EST.

    GM Crossover Sport Vans (CSVs) Virtual Launch 2005 Buick Terraza and Saturn RELAY CSVs.

    Bob Lutz, vice chairman, Product Development and chairman GM North America
    Roger Adams, general manager, Buick
    Jill Lajdziak, vice president, Saturn Sales, Service and Marketing
    Tom Kowaleski, vice president, GM North America Communications

    Buick Terraza is the third entry into Buick’s truck portfolio. Terraza will complement Rendezvous and Rainier by delivering another premium, refined experience that blends the best qualities of Buick sedans with the utility that today’s marketplace demands. Terraza will compete at the upper end of the segment and continue the trend started with Rendezvous. Terraza was selected after consumers said the name has a luxurious, yet rugged image and conveyed a strong vehicle with comfort features.

    Saturn RELAY is a flexible people carrier with interior appointments reflecting the direction of future Saturn vehicles, which will help continue to grow the brand by attracting a new group of customers. It will also help Saturn meet the needs of existing Saturn owners with growing families and active lifestyles. The name ‘RELAY,’ associated with motion and movement, conveys the vehicle’s ability to connect people and their destinations.

    Need help navigating? - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    200HP still doesnt seem enough for me.. :\
  • vcjumpervcjumper Member Posts: 1,110
    Thats almost class-leading power! Oh ok thats almost average power!
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    and only 220 TORQUE! I thought torque was MOST IMPORTANT! what will become of my LAUNCH FEEL? Better recalibrate that throttle linkage AGAIN!

    Terraza.....i think we specified that for some flooring finishes in this library we worked on.....

    Can you just see Lutz checking in with his secretary on his Dec 4 calendar..."Oh crap, I gotta go make like I care about a bunch of crappy minivans, peddling this stuff". Hookers feel a greater sense of principle in their jobs.

    Who knows when we will see an 'Acura' minivan.......perhaps the Japanse Odyssey will arrive with an Acura badge. As narrowly focused as American parents typically are, you just slap a DVD video system in anything these days to placate your kids and it will sell.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518

    Thanks for the ordering info...I'm sort of interested in upcoming vans because my parents might be replacing their 1995 Windstar GL sometime in the next few years. Being in the hubcap business, the wheel section of the specs is what I look at first on any car, and my reaction was, "17-inch wheel covers on a MINIVAN?" Dodge has started throwing those at me too this year. Two years ago there was no such thing as a 17" wheel cover. Oh well, I guess if that's what people want...personally I prefer the 13", they take up less space in my basement :-P

    -Andrew L
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Just the 3.5 on the BUICK???????? I can understand the Saturn and Chevy, but why throw the smaller engine on the Buick and not the 3900? Theo, do you have ordering info on the Uplander and the Relay? I'm most interested in those vehicles.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    Saturn isn't as integrated with the rest of GM as you would think, so I don't have any ordering info on the Relay. The Uplander info just isn't up yet.

    Well the first pic of the Terraza and Relay have been posted, and I can't say I'm too fond of them. I think GM really missed the mark here:


    Very disappointing.
  • vcjumpervcjumper Member Posts: 1,110
    Look like 5 year old vans with Buick/Saturn family front ends put on them. Very 80's GM, same car with slight styling cue differences.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    OH DEAR.

    will they at least have new interiors?

    Yeah, they'll challenge the Sienna for the minivan crown.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    are we sure these aren't photo-shops? I think the Saturn grille looks better on the van then does the Buick grille. The Relay doesn't look anything close to the concept.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    These are reportedly scans from a press kit.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Geez. The vans look exactly the same from the front doors back. What will GM do to make these vans able to compete against the Honda Odyssey/Nissan Quest and Toyota Sienna?
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,048
    Don't forget the abysmal offset crash test score of the current model. Doubt that will be fixed in a makeover like this.
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    These will still be mini vans no matter what GM calls them. There isn't much you can do with a "box" shape. If they slope the roof down or pull the sides in, you will lose interior space and why would you want a mini van without space?

    Maybe not the best exterior design, but at least it isn't designed like the Quest. Our local Nissan dealer has had the same 10 Quest on his lot for the last month. Not a big seller here
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I saw a dealer up north with 7 Siennas just sitting there like nobody wants Siennas.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    I've never minded the shape of the short wheelbase venture, but to not update these vans to keep pace with the new Nissan and Toyota.....absolute neglect of the market by GM.

    There is no way any GM defender can put a positive spin on this dimestore approach to keeping up with the market.

    Ford did almost as bad a job with the Freestar.

    If they are gonna do a half-asked job like this these vans should at least get a new interior, upgraded crash protectection, flip down rear seat, and stellar powertrains.

    oops, one of those is missing already.....

    At least the Ford has some torque and also has full head curtains for safety.
  • iglooheatiglooheat Member Posts: 32
    I kinda like the Saturn. It's not ground breaking, but we all don't want a Quest. . .
    As for crash-test scores, they can improve on the same platform. The Rendezvous/Aztek are based on the same platform and scored better than the vans. I'm disappointed by the lack of diferentiation; GM will have basically 4 identical products. Tell me again why Pontiac has a van? Makes no sense for the excitment div.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Have to say that the styling on the new Buick is particularly homely. Maybe the Aztec designers didn't get fired, just reassigned? Seriously, the Freestar is really a sad effort and it would appear GM is doing the same. When you introduce a new vehicle into a competitive market, it has to be BETTER, not equal, not almost as good, not "hey it has some neat features". This is true for GM and Ford with their trucks, but that mentality doesn't carrover to minivans and passenger cars. Until it applies across the entire model line, you'll continue to see mediocre products, high rebates, whining about intense "foreign" competition, and inept CEO's like Willie Ford Jr. and whoever the GM guy is lately, promising better days ahead as the stock price heads ever lower.
  • corsicachevycorsicachevy Member Posts: 316
    Oh my! Those GM vans will be the ugliest things on the road. And at 4400-4600lbs, they will be overweight and underpowered.

    I was hopeful that GM would have made strides to produce a unique and clever van with a premium on space efficiency and weight control - something like a very wide MPV. Unfortunately, it appears they took a page out of Ford's product development book for the Freestar.

    I am very disappointed, especially since GM had done such a good job with several of its new offerings.
  • jerrywimerjerrywimer Member Posts: 588
    Just looking at those pictures, I was repelled at first. But as I look them over again, I think GM may get some sales from the new appearance alone. I personally don't care for the overly rounded-off edges all over the front end, or the (too?) tapering appearance from the back of the hood to the grill areas, and I've NEVER cared for the bug-eyed headlights that seem to be the new big thing.

    Having said that, and stepping back a bit to allow the overall appearance to sink in, I can see a strong SUV-ish look to the new vans. The front ends don't seem to slope as steeply off as the minivans that these will replace (or most of the competitions' products, for that matter). If they had four normally hinged doors, I'd be thinking crossover SUV for sure. The way it is now, it's more like cross-over 'ute with sliding rear doors.

    Because we have so little real information otherwise, especially in the way of road tests, crash tests, etc., pronouncing judgement on the new models is a bit premature. But the fact that they provide a lot of the true minivan utility (space, etc.) while keeping the SUV look much more faithfully than most crossovers do leads me to believe that these new models might score big with the segment of the market that buy SUVs but really need minivans, since they can get a minivan with less of the soccer mom image.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "and only 220 TORQUE?"

    Ask a typical minivan customer if high torque #'s are important, and SHE will say "what?". She wants interior features and value, not "sleekness and speediness".

    "..a van with some style and speed may hit the market by surprise hopefully someday."

    No minivan will ever be a "speedy" sports machine.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Minivan drivers are no different than any other car buyers. They don't know or care what the horsepower and torque ratings are. "She" test drives it the same as any other car and knows whether it is a dog on acceleration, whether it is noisy or not, and if the transmission shifts smoothly or clunks away. Test drive the Chrysler, Honda, and new Toyota and Nissan vans and then get in a Freestar. The difference is obvious. Same for handling and ride as Ford didn't bother to go with an independent rear suspension (again). If GM makes the same errors it won't matter what the horsepower numbers are. The assumption that "she" will settle for any adequately accelerating and handling minivan is obviously wrong. Just look at whose vans sell the best and who has to bribe customers to buy them.
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    in the category of, if it starts and runs, I don't care about how much power it has. As long as the van gets the job done, she is happy. Get the kids to soccer and down for pizza, job done!

    As far as how they look, That's subjective. I don't care for the looks of any mini van. It's a box and can't compare to my convertible on looks or handling. I think it will be a wait and see who likes the styling and who doesn't.

    Funny, the only guy that drives a Honda on our street sells them, all of the other families drive GM,Chy or Fords and these are all professional people.
  • corsicachevycorsicachevy Member Posts: 316
    FYI - Toyota did not go with an independent rear suspension for the new Sienna. The DC vans don't have IRS either. Also, the transmission shift quality of the new Freestar has been described as the best in the business.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    glad to see your mind is open today tomcat.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Ok folks, lets not condemn these vans before we have the hard facts and pics, and at least SOME have driven them and at least a model or two have been crash-tested.

    jchan2- Interesting that you saw Siennas on the lot "like nobody wanted to buy them". What does that even mean? They were frowning? In all seriousness, according to the WSJ, the number 1 and 2 vehicles with fewest days in inventory are the Toyota Prius and Sienna. WSJ publishes a "Top Ten" list every month. This month, 4 of the 10 were Toyotas (the others were the Lexus SC and RX).

  • corsicachevycorsicachevy Member Posts: 316
    I may have prematurely condemned the new GM vans, but given the pictures and the weight figures, I couldn't help myself.

    Let's be real here, these vans, even the Buick and Pontiac versions, will not compete directly with the best from Toyota and Honda. Even worse, by the time these things actually hit the market there may be new or improved offerings from other manufacturers. The target is always moving.
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