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Again, a minivan customer doesn't care about torque #'s, just if the van "has good pick up", can hold lots of items, and is conveinient. The Honda and Toyota minivans get all the attention from the media, but are still not #1 sellers.
BTW, import makers do have incentives, too. Maybe not $4-5000 rebates, but 1.9% is still an incentive.
Wheil we are at it, to the "purists", believe it or not, lots of people do NOT read Car and Driver/Road and Track/Automobile religiously, expect perfect stat sheets, think every vehicle should have a manual trans, and want to upstage people with car "know it all-ness"
here is how these vans will be competing
-looks, inside and out
-power
-price
-features
-space
-fit and finish
-reliability-safety
-convenience
It will be interesting to see in which of these areas besides (incentiveized) price these vans will hold up.
I have also been waiting to see the new GM minivans and I liked what I saw on the pictures in this message board (I don't think the Siennas or the or Quests are particulary attractive). Having said that, I am very surprised that GM's engine will have only 200 hp and 220 torque, especially given the increased weight. They will probably have to compete on price, as there are not compelling enough reasons for people to buy the GMs (perception of reliability, and low quality interiors), just as in the case with the Freestar. Very disappointing.
If they can keep the final weight in check, the 3.4 will do fine. I have the 3.4 in our 2002 Venture and it has plenty of power.
Using these unsubstantiated photos as a launching pad for editorial comment may yield to surprise when reality slaps back up.
I'll reserve final judgement until I see them in the flesh but they are a major disappointment for now.
What about those pictures leads you to believe that they are photoshop products? Are there certain characteristics in the images that tipped you off?
Given GM's product development schedule for their minivans it doesn't seem unlikely that they would make cosmetic changes to the current minivan to create the illusion of an "all new" model. This practice isn't completely unheard of in the automotive world.
Granted the mini-vans are not as important to GM as the Malibu. But one thinks GM would have went out of its way to make those first shots pretty.
Finally, why would the first shots only be available on Autoworld? GM drops pr pieces to everyone, including Edmunds. But go to Edmunds' Saturn Relay first look, and you have a completely different concept.
You mentioned the Saturn minivan that has been on Edmund's future vehicle link for quite some time. That vehicle looks like a "real" minivan - not the bloated family yachts that have become all the rage. Now, that vehicle with the 3.5 liter V6 may make some sense and be a good seller for Saturn, but no one would consider a vehicle of that size as an alternative to Honda, Toyota and DC. The Saturn van appears to be MPV-sized.
BTW, the Saturn van in Edmunds is an old concept....the Saturn version of GM's CSV's will look nothing like it.
And look at the sheetmetal again. It is all new. Has to be to build a van that is 3.7" longer, 2.5" wider, and 4" taller then the current van. (Based on the specs posted here last week by Theo2709 vs. current vans).
-juice
2. the interior is from the current GM triplets (look at the headrests)
3. Buick would never use that grill. why? they are going "retro" as in their latest SUVs, the Rendezvous and Rainier. Buick is also making the new Regal and LeSabre with circular grills, not a big eggcrate one..
4. Buick would also never use those wheels, which for some reason look like hubcaps to me.
5. Saturn PROMISED, as with GM, that their new minivan would combine SUV-likeness, driveability of a car, and cargo. I see all those except for the SUV part. wheres the crossover traits!?!
**these photos were obviously photoshopped**
Just do what we did and buy an MPV. We love it! It's the best minivan on the market, hands down!!!
It would make one wonder why autoworld and no one else has the shots, however.
Neither door is the same as the current van. Front doors are narrower in front of the mirror mount because the fender set up and the steaper angle of the windshield. The rear door is different because the window is now framed in metal and not overlapping at the rear. This may because it is fixed (like Chrysler) or it may go down.
And perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention, but all I thought GM has promised was a different marketing classification name, "Sport Van".
And I believe AutoWorld has the earliest in home date for their issues. And wouldn't be surprised if GM is ticked. The big 3 magazines (CD, MT, & Auto) should be in peoples boxes this week.
I still think they are photo shopped but if they are in Auto world maybe not.
Being here working for the company, they really need something new and different like the new sienna. You can't change a Minivan, so why make it look like an SUV - that's why they have a Crossover SUV segment, like the Murano or the Randezvous.
A minivan is minivan no matter which way you look at it. Instead of coming with something new (CSVs) they should just try to make the current models better. Have every feature included that's offered by the top players.
A Nice Powerful engine - Maybe one from the SRX the 3.6L V6 with at least 240HP Or just to become the segment leader - include the 4.2 I6 From the Envoy and show Ford Freestar what Torque and Horsepower combined feels like. All the safety features. All the amenities, Powerful Sound, DVD Entertainment, Flat Floor Flow Down seat with 60/40, High Quality Interior fit and finish with NO GAPS. If they can have some thing similar to this. They have a winner and maybe the new segment leader.
But knowing GM with their new Malibu, They will probably just try to play catch-up and again watch the Undisputed Honda Odyssey become the segment leader in 2005.
tsx- how are you so sure the Odyssey will become the undisputed champ upon its redesign? Honda didnt do so hot when it revamped the Civic... so you never know...
~alpha
Difference being, the A6 was stellar to begin with.
But this is a GM discussion... I work for the company.. and so we have the Most Fuel efficient minivan in the market even beating out the new sienna. Most of the features are offered in the current vans including AWD. Now all GM needs is a German Styling and Japanese Quality and realibility in the new van. BINGO!
My suggestion is again use the new 3.6 with VVT and the most horsepower at 245. I know ppl don't look for power but this way it will put us top of everyone else atleast in one feature! At the sametime make sure to MATCH-UP to sienna with feature by feature. With the big Incentives and a low MSRP for the base model and you have a winner.
If these are indeed the new vans, I'm a bit disappointed but that said, the new Sienna is pretty ugly also. Best looking vans are still the Chrysler ones IMO. Hopefully GM will put the 3800 or new 3900 in this van (at least as an option) to get the HP up the competition. OHC motor isn't going to happen.
I am a bit surprised to see how similar these Saturn and Buick models look to each other.
These models need more differentiation. Let the Buick be more like the Rendezvous. Give the Saturn plastic side panels after all.
Those pics looks like face-lifted twins of the very old current design.
-juice
The Freestar outsold left over Windstars in November, too. It's doing well considering some counted Ford out a few months ago.
~alpha
One of the beefs I have with the Freestar/Monterey, where Ford allegedly spent copious amts. of cash... Materials quality and appearence may be top notch, and thats a step in the right direction- but the dashboard/instrument panel look like something directly out of the early 90s. Not impressive. Not competitive.
And then, theres all this talk of how people buy hp and drive torque, which I do honestly believe. However, the Freestar engines are so low output for their size... the torque simply cant mask this... Car and Driver timed a Sienna 8passenger to 60 in 7.8 seconds, the Ody even faster. The only stat I've seen so far, on PBS's Motorweek, puts the 4.2L Monterey at 9.4 to 60, clearly slower. Once again, good for the early to mid 90s minivan entries, though. Also- fuel economy is not too impressive, understandably so with engines of that size. GM may suffer the same lethargic fate, though all indications point to excellent fuel economy from the 3.5L pushrod engine. And at least the HF 3.6L engine will be an option in some models....
Simply put, "Nice" doesnt cut it anymore. The Sienna is a whole lot more than "nice", and the Quest caters to the non-conventional minivan buyer. Seems to me like the next Ody, the Sienna, and the Quest will continue to duke it out for the top spots while the Freestar, the current DCX minis, and perhaps... depending on how much of the information here is true... the GM quadruplets and the Kia Sedona...will duke it out for the best of the lower-tier minis.
~alpha
So are you suggesting perhaps Ford should have taken a cue from the ION and made a center dash IP?
I was worried when I heard GM was changing the design and image of their minivans to more of an SUV look, thinking that maybe we should have waited before getting our MPV last Spring. After seeing these pics, if they are the real deal, I'm glad we didn't wait!
Windstar's interior may have been better executed.
-Andrew L
At least GM's OHV motors are efficient.
http://www.freep.com Also has an article with some feature details, such as 4 wheel discs on the vans.
Also the Buick web site is up with the Terraza. Turns out I was wrong, GM did redesign the door handles. They look/are chrome at the Buick site.