JB, it didn't take long for me to flee that dealership with their 3K markups on everything. With most dealers happily selling Subies around invoice, I honestly don't know how this particular dealer thinks they fit in.
corkfish and ballistic - I think it's a fairly easy $100, I looked at Mitsubishi's website and read the rules of the promotion yesterday after seeing one of their commercials.
You just download a "certificate" from the website (or get one at the dealership) and test drive one of their cars - an Outlander for example, which directly competes with the Forester in the small SUV class (NOT when it comes down to performance, hehe). If, or rather, when you buy a "competing vehicle" (Forester, in this case) within 21 days, just have the Subie dealer fill in their info on the certificate and then send it in to Mitsu to get paid.. voila!
I think I will give this a try when the time comes to pull the trigger on my XT purchase.
I noticed in the pictures of the XT in C&D is that it doesn't have the rear spoiler on it like I thought was standard. Their test mule had just under 2k miles on it and it was the silver color.
bkaiser1 says, "JB, it didn't take long for me to flee that dealership with their 3K markups on everything. With most dealers happily selling Subies around invoice, I honestly don't know how this particular dealer thinks they fit in."
Maybe they got an early pre-press look at the Car & Driver road test results Brian just furnished. 0-60 = 5.3 Standing QM = 13.8 @ 97.
With published 3rd-party performance results like those, your dealer might sell out even with his $3K markup, and all the other invoice+ dealers are slapping their foreheads saying "What was I thinking?!?"
pleiad7 provides details: "If, or rather, when you buy a "competing vehicle" (Forester, in this case) within 21 days, just have the Subie dealer fill in their info on the certificate and then send it in to Mitsu to get paid.. voila!"
Crap. I'm probably still SOL. Unless it covers a competing vehicle you bought five days BEFORE testing the Mitsu, which seems rather unlikely.
Brian sez, "I noticed in the pictures of the XT in C&D is that it doesn't have the rear spoiler on it like I thought was standard."
I originally thought it was standard, too, especially since it was shown on EVERY single press-release picture and was on every auto show example. I think a few of the writeups even said it was standard. I don't like the spoiler at all, especially at over $300 MSRP on regular Foresters. I was delighted to learn, with just enough time left to make sure mine got configured at the port-of-entry exactly the way I wanted it, that the spoiler is indeed OPTIONAL, not standard. So I happily deleted it from mine.
Brian: "Their test mule had just under 2k miles on it"
Which means the performance they observed might actually improve slightly with more break-in miles.
"...and it was the silver color."
Well, then, since mine is silver and has no spoiler, their pictures might as well be of MY personal XT!
"...observed mpg = 20"
Not great, but considering how they probably drove the cr@p out of it, not all that bad.
While the C&D road test performance figures are exciting, I'd like to see what R&T and Automobile come up with. My guess is they too will post impressive numbers, but I don't think they will match (or better) those of C&D.
Even of more relevance would be numbers posted by CR, as CR acceleration tests are closer to how owners actually drive their vehicles. I'm sure the numbers will be good, but probably nowhere near what C&D accomplished.
Conservative ol' Bob says, "Even of more relevance would be numbers posted by CR, as CR acceleration tests are closer to how owners actually drive their vehicles."
That's true, but how could their 0-60 be any worse than C&D's rolling 5-60 in 6.3? THAT is the truly revealing number. I don't have the old WRX tests handy, but I'm pretty sure that 6.3 seconds is about a full second better than the WRX.
For a lot (maybe even most) XT buyers, the 4.41 final drive we're now hearing about is probably just what the doctor ordered. I, on the other hand, think the XT would have been a much more pleasant all-around vehicle if it stayed with 4.11 or even moved to 3.9. The acceleration would still have been brilliant (well under 6 sec 0-60) and highway cruising, engine longevity, fuel mileage, and interior noise levels all would have been appreciably better.
Remember when I said I'd like to have the European MT with its dual-range gearset? Now I wish for it even more, but instead of a 17% step-down, I'd rather have it with a 20-25% step-UP...<sigh>
Buzzing the XT's engine along at over 3400rpm just to cruise at 75 on the freeway isn't exactly my idea of a relaxed car to take on trips...
I agree, C&D's 5-60 test shows that even with zero clutch abuse acceleration is phenomenal.
One thing - the turbo mellows out the engine noise, especially exhaust noise. Don't assume the Forester will be loud - I found it quieter than my '98 Forester by far, even at highway speeds.
I stopped by my nearest subaru dealer yeaterday, prestige subaru in Asheville( which happens to be the biggest volume dealer in the southeast with a really great service crew that loves aftermarket tuning). they have sold 4 of the 6 XT's they received last week, and agreed to sell me whatever i want on the VIP plan at invoice . the salesman suggested taking the savings on the price of the car and getting the leather, premium sound, more sound insulation and even a sunroof if i want it on a MT through their aftermarket detail shop, under the MSRP on the Premium Package , and get better leather in the process. they had a 2003 silver XS with the premium package that included a light gray leather, and it looked so much better , IMHO, than the dark gray you can get in the XT. Likewise the beige leather in the cayenne red XS. the salesman offered his personal opinion that the AT is more than adequate performance, though, unless i was a MT purist. one a side note, the seats on the XT are the same shape and structure as the NA forester, i.e. no meaningful thigh and side bolsters like the WRX. I really like the WRX seats and LOVE, not like, the pneumatic adjustable seat bolsters and lumbar supports on the 6-way electric adjustable leather seats, driver and passenger side,in my '94 explorer.maybe i can get an aftermarket seat set rather than just putting leather on the existing seats.( i actually considered pulling the explorer seats out and putting them in an XT and hook them up to the seat heater circuit, but i dont think that will work.)
On a serious note....in an amazing display of restraint, i turned down repeated offers to take his remaining 2 XT's on test drives, one Black AT , the other a Red MT. I decided to "do the right thing", considering all the posts in here about getting a truly "virgin" new XT and making sure it was not abused in the break in period. I was also reacting to my shock, and anger, after reading a few posts of folks who test drove XTs from dealers' very limited supply, just out of curiosity and with absolutely no intent to buy it, then blatantly ignored the manuf. recomm. break in procedures by pushing the cars to redline! somebody else can later buy the car that they have abused, and wonder why their car is losing compression at high RPM, etc., and that dealer who trusted them to test drive a car responsibly can try to appease an unhappy owner of a "new " XT and figure out whats wrong with that car and try to fix it. the posts in here from new BUYERS like chassol and ballistic have been worth their weight in gold to people who are considering buying a new XT or just subaru enthusiasts. now we also have the reviews in the car mags coming out, driving cars provided by Subaru to be driven to the limits. if you are not buying, maybe you should give some thought to whether you would want to be the person who bought the car you test drove. Mark
juice says, "One thing - the turbo mellows out the engine noise, especially exhaust noise. Don't assume the Forester will be loud - I found it quieter than my '98 Forester by far, even at highway speeds."
Adding a turbo can indeed help reduce exhaust noise, but it won't have any effect on any other type of engine noise, and adds one of its own (albeit a rather enjoyable and amusing one).
I'm not assuming anything - I'm describing. My 5-speed's engine is considerably more noticable inside the cabin than the XT automatic I tested awhile ago. I'm now speculating that the automatic XTs use a taller (than the MT's frenetic 4.41) final drive.
Mark wrote "I was also reacting to my shock, and anger, after reading a few posts of folks who test drove XTs from dealers' very limited supply, just out of curiosity and with absolutely no intent to buy it, then blatantly ignored the manuf. recomm. break in procedures by pushing the cars to redline!"
I couldn't agree more, this practice is inexcusable IMHO and just another example of the all-too-common "me first, screw everybody else" phenomenon.
I was the first person to test drive an XT at my local dealership; the car had 3.3 miles on the odometer and both the salesman and I knew that I was not going to buy this vehicle. It took some serious restraint to keep the revs in check, but to me it just didn't feel right to throw all caution to the wind and redline it just for kicks.
But even among dealers this kind of behavior is rarely discouraged. I much prefer how test drives are handled for example in Germany. Most dealerships there have a designated test mule on the lot which is eventually made available for sale at a significant discount. All other brand-new vehicles are usually never used for test drives.
When I bought my then "new" Outback Sport 3 years ago it had 110 miles on the odometer. I didn't think much of it then, but today it makes me wonder how a car like that can even be classified as brand-new...
Subaru has 600+ dealers, that would take 1200 units (5 speed + auto) away from a short supply/high demand scenario. Subaru isn't big enough to fund that.
I think the vast majority exercises the same restraint you mention, in my cases the salesmen rode along with me.
My '91 Escort GT had 70 or so miles, my Forester had a few also. It was a dealer trade, they had to drive it from one dealer to another, then prep it.
Maybe the whole break-in thing is over-rated, did you see that article that argued the opposite, i.e. that cars should be driven they way they will be normally right from the start?
juice - my OBS was a dealer trade also, but the dealership it originally came from was only 30 miles away, so I assume the rest were test drive miles.
I guess there are a lot of different opinions out there in regards to proper break-in procedures. Not too long ago someone on NASIOC posted a link (in the STi forum, I think) to a website by some guy who advocated a harder than normal driving style during break-in to facilitate a quick settling of the piston rings.
Who knows, in the end you have to go with the method you're most comfortable with; I think I still prefer the gentle approach.
I spend that kind of money I'm driving the car the way I expect to in the real world. Simple as that. If someone goes shopping and sees more than a mile or two on the odometer then they should KNOW it's been a tester and either:
1) Don't buy that car. Show some restraint and get one off the truck.
OR
2) Get a substantial discount from the dealer for that vehicle because a buyer should KNOW that it's been a tester.
I don't abuse cars during test drives but neither do I baby them. If I'm going to be saddled with my second largest living expense for a period of 5+ years, I'm going to investigate and drive the car the way I usually drive. Last thing I want is to realize 1500 miles down the road that my new car doesn't do XYZ acceptably.
I am not responsible for the buying behavior of other people. A purchaser who doesn't believe a tester is a risk is as bad as a dealer who doesn't disclose the car was used for testing. Neither are my concern.
If I were a dealer I would hold a car or two of every model just for demo purposes however dealers are more than willing to sell testers to anyone who walks in. Manufacturers do not supply such cars and dealers don't operate that way. That situation is, again, not my concern. It's my duty as a buyer to be responsible for my own concerns and act accordingly. Car buying is a nasty, pitfall-laden process where everyone is trying to screw you out of what ever they can. I don't think being mercenary is imprudent.
Juice says, "I always drive the specific vehicle I'm buying before signing any paperwork. Doesn't matter if I'm only changing the color."
Well, I drove mine too, before I wrote the check. But I drove it the same way I'm driving it now - very gently, modest revs. Like Jason, I intend to drive it for a long time - in my case, at least ten years and perhaps 15. I wasn't attempting to learn the same things about it that I set out to learn during my black-automatic test drive week earlier.
woe the day when Subies become like Honda dealerships where you are lucky to even get a test drive. I remember trying to get in an Odyssey for a test drive, most of them were sold sight unseen 3 months in advance. Good points made by all, given the probability for abuse it is risky to buy any high performance vehicle that has "test drive" miles on it.
the spoiler, the splashguards, the bumper cover, the bumper corner guards, the turbo pressure guage are all OPTIONAL. the standard equipemnt list includes just the Xtreme Torque Stealth Utility Vehicle. Mark
Brian says, "And if you don't want to do that, GO BUY THE MAGAZINE!!!!!!!! I try to do everyone here a favor and instead get doubted and flamed."
Brian. Take a deep breath. Take another deep breath. Stop with the flaming bit. I've posted at least two messages already before this one making crystal clear what I thought was already more than clear enough in the the first one. No one has flamed you. Let me repeat: NO ONE HAS FLAMED YOU. Including me.
For about the third time, read this carefully: What I wrote was NOT "Brian posted data from a fictitious article" or anything remotely similar. Nothing like that was EVER said. What I posted was "WHAT IF Brian posted..." and then went on to describe how easy it would have been, desperate as we all were/are for hard data, to reel in the entire group by perpetrating a hoax.
I did NOT say that's what you did. Once again, what I said was "WHAT IF" you had done that. I cannot make this any plainer than I already have and than I'm making it now.
Do you follow me now? Please tell me that you understand there was nothing in my message that flamed you, and there was nothing in it that indicated any intent to flame you. Nothing was further from my mind. It never happened. Knowing what I DID write, I have no idea how you arrived at that.
I D I D N O T F L A M E Y O U. That was not my intent, and it was neither stated nor implied in anything I wrote. I don't quite understand why it is so difficult to get this through to you. I, like everyone else, very much appreciated the scoop you broke by bringing the salient contents of the C&D test to the starving masses here.
Wow ballistic, you certainly do lack social skills, don't you? However, one skill you do seem to possess is intentionally antagoniziing people and then attempting to weasel your way out of it. First me, now this person. Who's next?
If you didn't own an XT and write interesting feedback about it, your name would be TROLL.
I've been here on Edmunds since mid 2000 and never have sparked any bit of controversy with my posts. When I received my C&D that day, I was quite excited with the results they listed and couldn't help but share them with everyone here. Next time I'll let someone else break the news 'scoop'.
While I know you meant no harm with a "What If", it did cast doubt amongst a few people here and cause me to receive some interesting email. I'm not going to fret over those since they're easy to delete and can even be kind of funny to read.
I'm ready to put this to rest as well. I apologize. My proof is out there, the magazines will be hitting the shelfs shortly, if not already, and you guys with the XT's already will be relating your real-world results (of which I'm excited to hear about). Hopefully another mag review comes up with numbers that corroborate C&D's finding.
Regardless of any of this though, I'm looking forward to a Java Black XT Premium to replace my Outback. :P
There's some pixs of a gorgeous new silver Forester 5-speed XT with 17" Rota wheels, WRX pedals and a titanium shift knob over in the nasioc Forester forums (Hank has arrived), for those interested.
I did it. Went down to the local Subaru dealership and test drove a 5 speed. This thing is definitely capable of 14 second quater miles. What a blast. I'm afraid I did not observe the break in limits because I wanted to see what it could do. I really opened it up, went inside and bought one. I didn't even that great a price, but I don't have any regrets. Any way you look at it it's a lot of car for the money.
I've been following the discussions here for about a year and finally decide to "come out of the closet" after I've paid my $500 deposit for the dealer to order a silver MT XT for me. I must say I've been very impressed with the knowledgeable postings in this discussion so far and the amount of enthusiasm that the folks here have expressed.
The dealer agrees to sell me at invoice through the ACA VIP program. I was originally rather concerned that they might not be willing to do that. I wanted a silver but all the MT they had was a red one. So I asked them to order one for me. Then I realized that they wanted desperately to locate a silver one for me through dealer trade because they wanted to meet their sales goal this year. No luck on that. So I've to wait for 4-6 weeks. I guess Subaru isn’t selling that well in this part of the high country. It’s kind of a surprise for I still remember the remark that the salesman made when I test drove an XS last year. He said: “These things will be flying off the lots once the snow start falling”. I guess the snow has just left this time of the year. J
I did test drove the red MT XT they have in the lot with only 3 miles on it. I didn’t push it hard at all for I was aware of the breaking in issue. But to my surprise, the salesman that took me out for the test drive push it really hard when he drove the car out of the lot onto the road before turning over the key to me. I’m glad I’m not buying that car anyway. It did feel powerful enough, especially on the first gear. Since I probably up-shifted pretty prematurely, I didn’t sense the “rush” that I was expecting. That’s actually a relief to me because I was rather concerned about the “jack rabbit” type of behavior. I guess the Subaru engineers have done a really good job in smoothing out the turbo curve, or whatever it’s call.
I’m patiently waiting for my new MT XT and will keep you folks posted when I actually receive the key to the car. By then, my experience may not be news to this discussion anymore.
do you think the Subaru ACA VIP program is really a "deal" compared to what you can negotiate? I just got my paperwork so have 43 days to figure something out.... I had an Outback, totalled it, and am wondering about how zippy and modern the new Forester is really. I kayak, ski, mountains driving 75% of the year.
Pam, I didn't even bother to negotiate for a better price because I thought the invoice price was already a great deal given the new model. I just walked into the dealership, showed the sales manager the letter from Subaru and the exact configuration that I wanted printed out from this site, test drove the car and put down my deposit for them to order the car that I wanted. No negotiation and no pressure of pushing me anything that I didn't want; they didn't even mention the extended warranty which I didn't care. Until I actually pickup my car when it arrives, I should say it's been the most pleasant car buying experience I have ever had so far.
Pam - I am also going to purchase my XT through the VIP program (I'm an IMBA member). Yes, you could probably negotiate a deal fairly close to dealer invoice price, although that may be harder to do with a brandnew model like the XT which is still in short supply. But why not take the haggling part right out of it, since your profile says you hate car shopping? ;-)
As Pin already pointed out, the advantage of the VIP invoice pricing is that you get zero pressure from the dealer AND a great deal. That's pretty hard to beat!
Thanks for scanning that, Papa Bear. Just peek at the charts - best acceleration by far, best lateral grip, 2nd best braking, tied for 2nd best mileage. Not one bad statistic on it.
I think we're all very excited about this vehicle, indeed it's worthy of it. But let's give our friendly Edmunds.com hosts a break and focus on the vehicles, like Subaru threads almost always do.
I'm new to Subaru and new to this board. Could somebody enlighten me on what the VIP programs are that are mentioned on this thread. I'm looking at getting a Forester XS. Thanks.
David, Go to Subaru's website at http://www.subaru.com/outdoorlife/index.jsp and click at the PARTNERS link near the upper right corner. You'll find the list of organizations of which Subaru is a partner. Follow any of the organization's link and you can find the details of the VIP program.
Wow, 5.3 is much better than I expected. I am so glad to hear that someone has finally instrument tested an XT. I am a C&D subscriber and can't wait for the August issue to arrive. The other magazines will probably also have tests in their August issues, as I have noticed they all seem to test many of the same cars each month. C&Ds numbers will probably be the best. They seem to consistently show the lowest ETs etc. I'll bet that all other tests will still show 0 to 60 times in the fives. I don't doubt these numbers at all. I now have almost 800 miles on my XT MT and am starting to run it up a bit. This morning I turned off the AC and ran it to about 5800 in the first three gears. Wow, I have never owned a car that accelerates any faster than this (and I have owned some fast cars in my life). Yesterday I was cruising about 70 on the highway. Just for kicks I dropped back to 4th and hit it. The car just exploded. I was up to 95 in a matter of seconds. I am going to have to be careful I don't start getting speeding tickets with this car. It's such a blast to drive fast. So far I couldn't be happier with my decision to by an XT sight unseen.
Got my Silver AT on Saturday and really happy with it. Of course babying it now, but I can tell it wants to GO! Real responsive, especially in that 45 - 65 MPH range for passing, but no slouch off the line either. Have only driven @ 120 miles (mixed highway/city) and initial MPG was 20.6. Will need to go back to dealer in next couple of days when splash guards they ordered get in.
Comments
B
BTW, the one I drove was $23.9k with freight included, no-haggle priced.
-juice
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/showroom/?VEHICLES
S*UV = Stealth Utility Vehicle
Bob
You just download a "certificate" from the website (or get one at the dealership) and test drive one of their cars - an Outlander for example, which directly competes with the Forester in the small SUV class (NOT when it comes down to performance, hehe). If, or rather, when you buy a "competing vehicle" (Forester, in this case) within 21 days, just have the Subie dealer fill in their info on the certificate and then send it in to Mitsu to get paid.. voila!
I think I will give this a try when the time comes to pull the trigger on my XT purchase.
The line forms behind me!
-juice
300-ft-dia skidpad = 0.75g
observed mpg = 20
Maybe Automobile will have tested an AT
-Brian
Maybe they got an early pre-press look at the Car & Driver road test results Brian just furnished.
0-60 = 5.3 Standing QM = 13.8 @ 97.
With published 3rd-party performance results like those, your dealer might sell out even with his $3K markup, and all the other invoice+ dealers are slapping their foreheads saying "What was I thinking?!?"
jb
Last week I coined a new category type, defined by the XT: SSUV. SuperSport Utility Vehicle.
With C&D's performance results, I'd say it fits.
jb
Crap. I'm probably still SOL. Unless it covers a competing vehicle you bought five days BEFORE testing the Mitsu, which seems rather unlikely.
jb
I originally thought it was standard, too, especially since it was shown on EVERY single press-release picture and was on every auto show example. I think a few of the writeups even said it was standard. I don't like the spoiler at all, especially at over $300 MSRP on regular Foresters. I was delighted to learn, with just enough time left to make sure mine got configured at the port-of-entry exactly the way I wanted it, that the spoiler is indeed OPTIONAL, not standard. So I happily deleted it from mine.
Brian: "Their test mule had just under 2k miles on it"
Which means the performance they observed might actually improve slightly with more break-in miles.
"...and it was the silver color."
Well, then, since mine is silver and has no spoiler, their pictures might as well be of MY personal XT!
"...observed mpg = 20"
Not great, but considering how they probably drove the cr@p out of it, not all that bad.
jb
Second, what are you early takers finding on the insurance costs vis a vis the NA Forester?
John
I think you mean the auto has a learning curve.
.75 is OK, their last XS managed .77. Pavement type, I guess.
-juice
Even of more relevance would be numbers posted by CR, as CR acceleration tests are closer to how owners actually drive their vehicles. I'm sure the numbers will be good, but probably nowhere near what C&D accomplished.
Bob
That's true, but how could their 0-60 be any worse than C&D's rolling 5-60 in 6.3? THAT is the truly revealing number. I don't have the old WRX tests handy, but I'm pretty sure that 6.3 seconds is about a full second better than the WRX.
For a lot (maybe even most) XT buyers, the 4.41 final drive we're now hearing about is probably just what the doctor ordered. I, on the other hand, think the XT would have been a much more pleasant all-around vehicle if it stayed with 4.11 or even moved to 3.9. The acceleration would still have been brilliant (well under 6 sec 0-60) and highway cruising, engine longevity, fuel mileage, and interior noise levels all would have been appreciably better.
Remember when I said I'd like to have the European MT with its dual-range gearset? Now I wish for it even more, but instead of a 17% step-down, I'd rather have it with a 20-25% step-UP...<sigh>
Buzzing the XT's engine along at over 3400rpm just to cruise at 75 on the freeway isn't exactly my idea of a relaxed car to take on trips...
jack
One thing - the turbo mellows out the engine noise, especially exhaust noise. Don't assume the Forester will be loud - I found it quieter than my '98 Forester by far, even at highway speeds.
-juice
one a side note, the seats on the XT are the same shape and structure as the NA forester, i.e. no meaningful thigh and side bolsters like the WRX. I really like the WRX seats and LOVE, not like, the pneumatic adjustable seat bolsters and lumbar supports on the 6-way electric adjustable leather seats, driver and passenger side,in my '94 explorer.maybe i can get an aftermarket seat set rather than just putting leather on the existing seats.( i actually considered pulling the explorer seats out and putting them in an XT and hook them up to the seat heater circuit, but i dont think that will work.)
On a serious note....in an amazing display of restraint, i turned down repeated offers to take his remaining 2 XT's on test drives, one Black AT , the other a Red MT. I decided to "do the right thing", considering all the posts in here about getting a truly "virgin" new XT and making sure it was not abused in the break in period. I was also reacting to my shock, and anger, after reading a few posts of folks who test drove XTs from dealers' very limited supply, just out of curiosity and with absolutely no intent to buy it, then blatantly ignored the manuf. recomm. break in procedures by pushing the cars to redline! somebody else can later buy the car that they have abused, and wonder why their car is losing compression at high RPM, etc., and that dealer who trusted them to test drive a car responsibly can try to appease an unhappy owner of a "new " XT and figure out whats wrong with that car and try to fix it.
the posts in here from new BUYERS like chassol and ballistic have been worth their weight in gold to people who are considering buying a new XT or just subaru enthusiasts. now we also have the reviews in the car mags coming out, driving cars provided by Subaru to be driven to the limits. if you are not buying, maybe you should give some thought to whether you would want to be the person who bought the car you test drove.
Mark
Adding a turbo can indeed help reduce exhaust noise, but it won't have any effect on any other type of engine noise, and adds one of its own (albeit a rather enjoyable and amusing one).
I'm not assuming anything - I'm describing. My 5-speed's engine is considerably more noticable inside the cabin than the XT automatic I tested awhile ago. I'm now speculating that the automatic XTs use a taller (than the MT's frenetic 4.41) final drive.
jb
I couldn't agree more, this practice is inexcusable IMHO and just another example of the all-too-common "me first, screw everybody else" phenomenon.
I was the first person to test drive an XT at my local dealership; the car had 3.3 miles on the odometer and both the salesman and I knew that I was not going to buy this vehicle. It took some serious restraint to keep the revs in check, but to me it just didn't feel right to throw all caution to the wind and redline it just for kicks.
But even among dealers this kind of behavior is rarely discouraged. I much prefer how test drives are handled for example in Germany. Most dealerships there have a designated test mule on the lot which is eventually made available for sale at a significant discount. All other brand-new vehicles are usually never used for test drives.
When I bought my then "new" Outback Sport 3 years ago it had 110 miles on the odometer. I didn't think much of it then, but today it makes me wonder how a car like that can even be classified as brand-new...
I think the vast majority exercises the same restraint you mention, in my cases the salesmen rode along with me.
My '91 Escort GT had 70 or so miles, my Forester had a few also. It was a dealer trade, they had to drive it from one dealer to another, then prep it.
Maybe the whole break-in thing is over-rated, did you see that article that argued the opposite, i.e. that cars should be driven they way they will be normally right from the start?
-juice
I guess there are a lot of different opinions out there in regards to proper break-in procedures. Not too long ago someone on NASIOC posted a link (in the STi forum, I think) to a website by some guy who advocated a harder than normal driving style during break-in to facilitate a quick settling of the piston rings.
Who knows, in the end you have to go with the method you're most comfortable with; I think I still prefer the gentle approach.
1) Don't buy that car. Show some restraint and get one off the truck.
OR
2) Get a substantial discount from the dealer for that vehicle because a buyer should KNOW that it's been a tester.
I don't abuse cars during test drives but neither do I baby them. If I'm going to be saddled with my second largest living expense for a period of 5+ years, I'm going to investigate and drive the car the way I usually drive. Last thing I want is to realize 1500 miles down the road that my new car doesn't do XYZ acceptably.
I am not responsible for the buying behavior of other people. A purchaser who doesn't believe a tester is a risk is as bad as a dealer who doesn't disclose the car was used for testing. Neither are my concern.
If I were a dealer I would hold a car or two of every model just for demo purposes however dealers are more than willing to sell testers to anyone who walks in. Manufacturers do not supply such cars and dealers don't operate that way. That situation is, again, not my concern. It's my duty as a buyer to be responsible for my own concerns and act accordingly. Car buying is a nasty, pitfall-laden process where everyone is trying to screw you out of what ever they can. I don't think being mercenary is imprudent.
Welcome to capitalism.
-juice
Well, I drove mine too, before I wrote the check. But I drove it the same way I'm driving it now - very gently, modest revs. Like Jason, I intend to drive it for a long time - in my case, at least ten years and perhaps 15. I wasn't attempting to learn the same things about it that I set out to learn during my black-automatic test drive week earlier.
jb
-juice
John
John
Mark
Shoot, John, given the clutch pedal's high-rise-to-engagement, *I* have a learning curve with the MT Forester.
jack
XT-STATS.JPG
If that doesn't work, you can go here, signup for an imagestation acct (free) and view the album (and the picture is full size): ImageStation Album
And if you don't want to do that, GO BUY THE MAGAZINE!!!!!!!! I try to do everyone here a favor and instead get doubted and flamed.
-Brian
Brian. Take a deep breath. Take another deep breath. Stop with the flaming bit. I've posted at least two messages already before this one making crystal clear what I thought was already more than clear enough in the the first one. No one has flamed you. Let me repeat: NO ONE HAS FLAMED YOU. Including me.
For about the third time, read this carefully:
What I wrote was NOT "Brian posted data from a fictitious article" or anything remotely similar. Nothing like that was EVER said. What I posted was "WHAT IF Brian posted..." and then went on to describe how easy it would have been, desperate as we all were/are for hard data, to reel in the entire group by perpetrating a hoax.
I did NOT say that's what you did. Once again, what I said was "WHAT IF" you had done that. I cannot make this any plainer than I already have and than I'm making it now.
Do you follow me now? Please tell me that you understand there was nothing in my message that flamed you, and there was nothing in it that indicated any intent to flame you. Nothing was further from my mind. It never happened. Knowing what I DID write, I have no idea how you arrived at that.
I D I D N O T F L A M E Y O U. That was not my intent, and it was neither stated nor implied in anything I wrote. I don't quite understand why it is so difficult to get this through to you. I, like everyone else, very much appreciated the scoop you broke by bringing the salient contents of the C&D test to the starving masses here.
jack
If you didn't own an XT and write interesting feedback about it, your name would be TROLL.
While I know you meant no harm with a "What If", it did cast doubt amongst a few people here and cause me to receive some interesting email. I'm not going to fret over those since they're easy to delete and can even be kind of funny to read.
I'm ready to put this to rest as well. I apologize. My proof is out there, the magazines will be hitting the shelfs shortly, if not already, and you guys with the XT's already will be relating your real-world results (of which I'm excited to hear about). Hopefully another mag review comes up with numbers that corroborate C&D's finding.
Regardless of any of this though, I'm looking forward to a Java Black XT Premium to replace my Outback. :P
-Brian
Thanks for going through the trouble of posting the results of the C&D road test.
I can't wait to get my own issue! Come on USPS!
Ken
Bob
The dealer agrees to sell me at invoice through the ACA VIP program. I was originally rather concerned that they might not be willing to do that. I wanted a silver but all the MT they had was a red one. So I asked them to order one for me. Then I realized that they wanted desperately to locate a silver one for me through dealer trade because they wanted to meet their sales goal this year. No luck on that. So I've to wait for 4-6 weeks. I guess Subaru isn’t selling that well in this part of the high country. It’s kind of a surprise for I still remember the remark that the salesman made when I test drove an XS last year. He said: “These things will be flying off the lots once the snow start falling”. I guess the snow has just left this time of the year. J
I did test drove the red MT XT they have in the lot with only 3 miles on it. I didn’t push it hard at all for I was aware of the breaking in issue. But to my surprise, the salesman that took me out for the test drive push it really hard when he drove the car out of the lot onto the road before turning over the key to me. I’m glad I’m not buying that car anyway. It did feel powerful enough, especially on the first gear. Since I probably up-shifted pretty prematurely, I didn’t sense the “rush” that I was expecting. That’s actually a relief to me because I was rather concerned about the “jack rabbit” type of behavior. I guess the Subaru engineers have done a really good job in smoothing out the turbo curve, or whatever it’s call.
I’m patiently waiting for my new MT XT and will keep you folks posted when I actually receive the key to the car. By then, my experience may not be news to this discussion anymore.
Pin
do you think the Subaru ACA VIP program is really a "deal" compared to what you can negotiate? I just got my paperwork so have 43 days to figure something out.... I had an Outback, totalled it, and am wondering about how zippy and modern the new Forester is really. I kayak, ski, mountains driving 75% of the year.
I didn't even bother to negotiate for a better price because I thought the invoice price was already a great deal given the new model. I just walked into the dealership, showed the sales manager the letter from Subaru and the exact configuration that I wanted printed out from this site, test drove the car and put down my deposit for them to order the car that I wanted. No negotiation and no pressure of pushing me anything that I didn't want; they didn't even mention the extended warranty which I didn't care. Until I actually pickup my car when it arrives, I should say it's been the most pleasant car buying experience I have ever had so far.
Pin
As Pin already pointed out, the advantage of the VIP invoice pricing is that you get zero pressure from the dealer AND a great deal. That's pretty hard to beat!
Thanks for scanning that, Papa Bear. Just peek at the charts - best acceleration by far, best lateral grip, 2nd best braking, tied for 2nd best mileage. Not one bad statistic on it.
I think we're all very excited about this vehicle, indeed it's worthy of it. But let's give our friendly Edmunds.com hosts a break and focus on the vehicles, like Subaru threads almost always do.
-juice
David
Go to Subaru's website at http://www.subaru.com/outdoorlife/index.jsp and click at the PARTNERS link near the upper right corner. You'll find the list of organizations of which Subaru is a partner. Follow any of the organization's link and you can find the details of the VIP program.
Pin
-juice