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Comments
B
BTW, the one I drove was $23.9k with freight included, no-haggle priced.
-juice
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/showroom/?VEHICLES
S*UV = Stealth Utility Vehicle
Bob
You just download a "certificate" from the website (or get one at the dealership) and test drive one of their cars - an Outlander for example, which directly competes with the Forester in the small SUV class (NOT when it comes down to performance, hehe). If, or rather, when you buy a "competing vehicle" (Forester, in this case) within 21 days, just have the Subie dealer fill in their info on the certificate and then send it in to Mitsu to get paid.. voila!
I think I will give this a try when the time comes to pull the trigger on my XT purchase.
The line forms behind me!
-juice
300-ft-dia skidpad = 0.75g
observed mpg = 20
Maybe Automobile will have tested an AT
-Brian
Maybe they got an early pre-press look at the Car & Driver road test results Brian just furnished.
0-60 = 5.3 Standing QM = 13.8 @ 97.
With published 3rd-party performance results like those, your dealer might sell out even with his $3K markup, and all the other invoice+ dealers are slapping their foreheads saying "What was I thinking?!?"
jb
Last week I coined a new category type, defined by the XT: SSUV. SuperSport Utility Vehicle.
With C&D's performance results, I'd say it fits.
jb
Crap. I'm probably still SOL. Unless it covers a competing vehicle you bought five days BEFORE testing the Mitsu, which seems rather unlikely.
jb
I originally thought it was standard, too, especially since it was shown on EVERY single press-release picture and was on every auto show example. I think a few of the writeups even said it was standard. I don't like the spoiler at all, especially at over $300 MSRP on regular Foresters. I was delighted to learn, with just enough time left to make sure mine got configured at the port-of-entry exactly the way I wanted it, that the spoiler is indeed OPTIONAL, not standard. So I happily deleted it from mine.
Brian: "Their test mule had just under 2k miles on it"
Which means the performance they observed might actually improve slightly with more break-in miles.
"...and it was the silver color."
Well, then, since mine is silver and has no spoiler, their pictures might as well be of MY personal XT!
"...observed mpg = 20"
Not great, but considering how they probably drove the cr@p out of it, not all that bad.
jb
Second, what are you early takers finding on the insurance costs vis a vis the NA Forester?
John
I think you mean the auto has a learning curve.
.75 is OK, their last XS managed .77. Pavement type, I guess.
-juice
Even of more relevance would be numbers posted by CR, as CR acceleration tests are closer to how owners actually drive their vehicles. I'm sure the numbers will be good, but probably nowhere near what C&D accomplished.
Bob
That's true, but how could their 0-60 be any worse than C&D's rolling 5-60 in 6.3? THAT is the truly revealing number. I don't have the old WRX tests handy, but I'm pretty sure that 6.3 seconds is about a full second better than the WRX.
For a lot (maybe even most) XT buyers, the 4.41 final drive we're now hearing about is probably just what the doctor ordered. I, on the other hand, think the XT would have been a much more pleasant all-around vehicle if it stayed with 4.11 or even moved to 3.9. The acceleration would still have been brilliant (well under 6 sec 0-60) and highway cruising, engine longevity, fuel mileage, and interior noise levels all would have been appreciably better.
Remember when I said I'd like to have the European MT with its dual-range gearset? Now I wish for it even more, but instead of a 17% step-down, I'd rather have it with a 20-25% step-UP...<sigh>
Buzzing the XT's engine along at over 3400rpm just to cruise at 75 on the freeway isn't exactly my idea of a relaxed car to take on trips...
jack
One thing - the turbo mellows out the engine noise, especially exhaust noise. Don't assume the Forester will be loud - I found it quieter than my '98 Forester by far, even at highway speeds.
-juice
one a side note, the seats on the XT are the same shape and structure as the NA forester, i.e. no meaningful thigh and side bolsters like the WRX. I really like the WRX seats and LOVE, not like, the pneumatic adjustable seat bolsters and lumbar supports on the 6-way electric adjustable leather seats, driver and passenger side,in my '94 explorer.maybe i can get an aftermarket seat set rather than just putting leather on the existing seats.( i actually considered pulling the explorer seats out and putting them in an XT and hook them up to the seat heater circuit, but i dont think that will work.)
On a serious note....in an amazing display of restraint, i turned down repeated offers to take his remaining 2 XT's on test drives, one Black AT , the other a Red MT. I decided to "do the right thing", considering all the posts in here about getting a truly "virgin" new XT and making sure it was not abused in the break in period. I was also reacting to my shock, and anger, after reading a few posts of folks who test drove XTs from dealers' very limited supply, just out of curiosity and with absolutely no intent to buy it, then blatantly ignored the manuf. recomm. break in procedures by pushing the cars to redline! somebody else can later buy the car that they have abused, and wonder why their car is losing compression at high RPM, etc., and that dealer who trusted them to test drive a car responsibly can try to appease an unhappy owner of a "new " XT and figure out whats wrong with that car and try to fix it.
the posts in here from new BUYERS like chassol and ballistic have been worth their weight in gold to people who are considering buying a new XT or just subaru enthusiasts. now we also have the reviews in the car mags coming out, driving cars provided by Subaru to be driven to the limits. if you are not buying, maybe you should give some thought to whether you would want to be the person who bought the car you test drove.
Mark
Adding a turbo can indeed help reduce exhaust noise, but it won't have any effect on any other type of engine noise, and adds one of its own (albeit a rather enjoyable and amusing one).
I'm not assuming anything - I'm describing. My 5-speed's engine is considerably more noticable inside the cabin than the XT automatic I tested awhile ago. I'm now speculating that the automatic XTs use a taller (than the MT's frenetic 4.41) final drive.
jb
I couldn't agree more, this practice is inexcusable IMHO and just another example of the all-too-common "me first, screw everybody else" phenomenon.
I was the first person to test drive an XT at my local dealership; the car had 3.3 miles on the odometer and both the salesman and I knew that I was not going to buy this vehicle. It took some serious restraint to keep the revs in check, but to me it just didn't feel right to throw all caution to the wind and redline it just for kicks.
But even among dealers this kind of behavior is rarely discouraged. I much prefer how test drives are handled for example in Germany. Most dealerships there have a designated test mule on the lot which is eventually made available for sale at a significant discount. All other brand-new vehicles are usually never used for test drives.
When I bought my then "new" Outback Sport 3 years ago it had 110 miles on the odometer. I didn't think much of it then, but today it makes me wonder how a car like that can even be classified as brand-new...
I think the vast majority exercises the same restraint you mention, in my cases the salesmen rode along with me.
My '91 Escort GT had 70 or so miles, my Forester had a few also. It was a dealer trade, they had to drive it from one dealer to another, then prep it.
Maybe the whole break-in thing is over-rated, did you see that article that argued the opposite, i.e. that cars should be driven they way they will be normally right from the start?
-juice
I guess there are a lot of different opinions out there in regards to proper break-in procedures. Not too long ago someone on NASIOC posted a link (in the STi forum, I think) to a website by some guy who advocated a harder than normal driving style during break-in to facilitate a quick settling of the piston rings.
Who knows, in the end you have to go with the method you're most comfortable with; I think I still prefer the gentle approach.
1) Don't buy that car. Show some restraint and get one off the truck.
OR
2) Get a substantial discount from the dealer for that vehicle because a buyer should KNOW that it's been a tester.
I don't abuse cars during test drives but neither do I baby them. If I'm going to be saddled with my second largest living expense for a period of 5+ years, I'm going to investigate and drive the car the way I usually drive. Last thing I want is to realize 1500 miles down the road that my new car doesn't do XYZ acceptably.
I am not responsible for the buying behavior of other people. A purchaser who doesn't believe a tester is a risk is as bad as a dealer who doesn't disclose the car was used for testing. Neither are my concern.
If I were a dealer I would hold a car or two of every model just for demo purposes however dealers are more than willing to sell testers to anyone who walks in. Manufacturers do not supply such cars and dealers don't operate that way. That situation is, again, not my concern. It's my duty as a buyer to be responsible for my own concerns and act accordingly. Car buying is a nasty, pitfall-laden process where everyone is trying to screw you out of what ever they can. I don't think being mercenary is imprudent.
Welcome to capitalism.
-juice
Well, I drove mine too, before I wrote the check. But I drove it the same way I'm driving it now - very gently, modest revs. Like Jason, I intend to drive it for a long time - in my case, at least ten years and perhaps 15. I wasn't attempting to learn the same things about it that I set out to learn during my black-automatic test drive week earlier.
jb
-juice
John
John
Mark
Shoot, John, given the clutch pedal's high-rise-to-engagement, *I* have a learning curve with the MT Forester.
jack
XT-STATS.JPG
If that doesn't work, you can go here, signup for an imagestation acct (free) and view the album (and the picture is full size): ImageStation Album
And if you don't want to do that, GO BUY THE MAGAZINE!!!!!!!! I try to do everyone here a favor and instead get doubted and flamed.
-Brian
Brian. Take a deep breath. Take another deep breath. Stop with the flaming bit. I've posted at least two messages already before this one making crystal clear what I thought was already more than clear enough in the the first one. No one has flamed you. Let me repeat: NO ONE HAS FLAMED YOU. Including me.
For about the third time, read this carefully:
What I wrote was NOT "Brian posted data from a fictitious article" or anything remotely similar. Nothing like that was EVER said. What I posted was "WHAT IF Brian posted..." and then went on to describe how easy it would have been, desperate as we all were/are for hard data, to reel in the entire group by perpetrating a hoax.
I did NOT say that's what you did. Once again, what I said was "WHAT IF" you had done that. I cannot make this any plainer than I already have and than I'm making it now.
Do you follow me now? Please tell me that you understand there was nothing in my message that flamed you, and there was nothing in it that indicated any intent to flame you. Nothing was further from my mind. It never happened. Knowing what I DID write, I have no idea how you arrived at that.
I D I D N O T F L A M E Y O U. That was not my intent, and it was neither stated nor implied in anything I wrote. I don't quite understand why it is so difficult to get this through to you. I, like everyone else, very much appreciated the scoop you broke by bringing the salient contents of the C&D test to the starving masses here.
jack
If you didn't own an XT and write interesting feedback about it, your name would be TROLL.
While I know you meant no harm with a "What If", it did cast doubt amongst a few people here and cause me to receive some interesting email. I'm not going to fret over those since they're easy to delete and can even be kind of funny to read.
I'm ready to put this to rest as well. I apologize. My proof is out there, the magazines will be hitting the shelfs shortly, if not already, and you guys with the XT's already will be relating your real-world results (of which I'm excited to hear about). Hopefully another mag review comes up with numbers that corroborate C&D's finding.
Regardless of any of this though, I'm looking forward to a Java Black XT Premium to replace my Outback. :P
-Brian
Thanks for going through the trouble of posting the results of the C&D road test.
I can't wait to get my own issue! Come on USPS!
Ken
Bob
The dealer agrees to sell me at invoice through the ACA VIP program. I was originally rather concerned that they might not be willing to do that. I wanted a silver but all the MT they had was a red one. So I asked them to order one for me. Then I realized that they wanted desperately to locate a silver one for me through dealer trade because they wanted to meet their sales goal this year. No luck on that. So I've to wait for 4-6 weeks. I guess Subaru isn’t selling that well in this part of the high country. It’s kind of a surprise for I still remember the remark that the salesman made when I test drove an XS last year. He said: “These things will be flying off the lots once the snow start falling”. I guess the snow has just left this time of the year. J
I did test drove the red MT XT they have in the lot with only 3 miles on it. I didn’t push it hard at all for I was aware of the breaking in issue. But to my surprise, the salesman that took me out for the test drive push it really hard when he drove the car out of the lot onto the road before turning over the key to me. I’m glad I’m not buying that car anyway. It did feel powerful enough, especially on the first gear. Since I probably up-shifted pretty prematurely, I didn’t sense the “rush” that I was expecting. That’s actually a relief to me because I was rather concerned about the “jack rabbit” type of behavior. I guess the Subaru engineers have done a really good job in smoothing out the turbo curve, or whatever it’s call.
I’m patiently waiting for my new MT XT and will keep you folks posted when I actually receive the key to the car. By then, my experience may not be news to this discussion anymore.
Pin
do you think the Subaru ACA VIP program is really a "deal" compared to what you can negotiate? I just got my paperwork so have 43 days to figure something out.... I had an Outback, totalled it, and am wondering about how zippy and modern the new Forester is really. I kayak, ski, mountains driving 75% of the year.
I didn't even bother to negotiate for a better price because I thought the invoice price was already a great deal given the new model. I just walked into the dealership, showed the sales manager the letter from Subaru and the exact configuration that I wanted printed out from this site, test drove the car and put down my deposit for them to order the car that I wanted. No negotiation and no pressure of pushing me anything that I didn't want; they didn't even mention the extended warranty which I didn't care. Until I actually pickup my car when it arrives, I should say it's been the most pleasant car buying experience I have ever had so far.
Pin
As Pin already pointed out, the advantage of the VIP invoice pricing is that you get zero pressure from the dealer AND a great deal. That's pretty hard to beat!
Thanks for scanning that, Papa Bear. Just peek at the charts - best acceleration by far, best lateral grip, 2nd best braking, tied for 2nd best mileage. Not one bad statistic on it.
I think we're all very excited about this vehicle, indeed it's worthy of it. But let's give our friendly Edmunds.com hosts a break and focus on the vehicles, like Subaru threads almost always do.
-juice
David
Go to Subaru's website at http://www.subaru.com/outdoorlife/index.jsp and click at the PARTNERS link near the upper right corner. You'll find the list of organizations of which Subaru is a partner. Follow any of the organization's link and you can find the details of the VIP program.
Pin
-juice