yeah...tell me that the seats are too short or the HVAC controls are hard to find in the dark, the sierra gold color is really nasty, the owners manual is confusing .something...anything. the waiting is killing me! Mark
I got my first ever ticket in my WRX wagon last fall. Where these turbo subies are most thrilling is two lane highways. I find it nearly impossible to pass a car without getting over 85. I had a great time with my wagon last weekend. My wife and I were coming through a hilly stretch near Shoals IN and it had been several months since I'd gotten to take any winding roads in the car. For people who view a car as only transportation they have no idea what fun an AWD turbo can be. And I'm talking safe fun, not really pushing the handling limits, just driving fast and smooth.
Picked up my new XT today. I was a little upset though because they promised me one with less than 5 miles on it and I got one with 20. I know these engines are durable, but I hope whoever test drove this thing took it easy! They even tried to tell me that it was Subaru policy to have a tech rep take a 15 mile test drive on turbo charged vehicles to look for any problems. Some of these guys are amazing with the stories they come up with.
..."Picked up my new XT today. I was a little upset though because they promised me one with less than 5 miles on it and I got one with 20. I know these engines are durable, but I hope whoever test drove this thing took it easy! They even tried to tell me that it was Subaru policy to have a tech rep take a 15 mile test drive on turbo charged vehicles to look for any problems."
Rubbish. Mine had 2.2 miles on arrival and 2.6 miles three days later upon delivery to me.
At 3 to 5 miles per short test drive, four or five people may have flogged your car. Or it may be completely legit. But how can you be certain?
having relinquished my soap box on test driving, i hope that corkfish inherited 20 miles of the 45 y.o. receptionist/secretary driving to krispy kreme to get the sales staff some donuts for their monday morning meeting . I think that TWRX has spoken very well to the joys of owning a small family car that rocks your socks when called upon. keep the faith! mark
"ballistic forgets to include that the 20miles may consist of Dealer-to-Dealer swap. "
I assume if there had been a dealer-to-dealer swap, Corkfish would have known about it - and in that case, there then would have been no mystery as to the cause of the 20 miles and he would not have been unhappy enough about the situation to post his message. Therefore, is it not logical to rule that out?
Even if a swap was the cause, I would accept that arrangement only if *I* was the one doing the driving. I'm not going to trust some part-time or contract employee to put the first 20 miles on any new car I buy.
When I picked it up and voiced my concern about the miles, they assured me that no customer had test driven the car. Frankly, I think I would have preferred a prospective customer taking it for test drives than one of the service guys. Since it's a new model, it was the only silver 5 speed in the area and that was the color I wanted, it was to late, I just couldn't walk away!
Wished I'd been able to share earlier. What I do before buying a new car, I asked about how their new vehicles are delivered and where they are stored/staged. I would also check out the odos of the cars on their lot and showroom i.e. if they store their vehicle offsite which is say ~5 miles away and the showroom cars' odo shows ~8 miles, then chances are it wasn't test driven.
John (corkfish)- Next time you drop by the dealership, take a peek at their cars' odo. Either way, at least you'll have some certainty where the ~17miles would have come from.
My XT was a dealer swap. The swapping dealer was about 60 miles away. I voiced concern to my salesman about how it would be driven. He assured me the driver was an order retired guy and that he would take it easy with my car. I was at the dealer when my car arrived and sure enough the driver appeared to be in his mid 60s. He complained that because of traffic he never got over 30 mph. I was glad to hear that and to see that the driver was not a twenty year old kid. I believe that many dealers employ retired people to ferry the cars. They are certainly less likely to really abuse a car than a teenager would be. However, I plan to retire next year and I know I would still be tempted to run it up a bit.
I got the insurance bill last night and it looks as if it will cost me about $150 more a year than I was paying on the 98 Forester. That's not bad.
I was wrong about all the magazines testing the XT the same month. I received my Automobile magazine yesterday and it doesn't have anything about the Forester XT. It does have a blurb on the Baja Turbo that essentially didn't say anything new. Oh well, C&D should arrive any day now. By the way, all I have heard about the C&D test was the 0-60 times. What did they say? Did they like the car?
I test drove another XT 5-speed and its clutch was a lot easier to use than the one I bought. Service guys think there is nothing wrong, I suspect all they did was check that the self-adjusting mechanism is working. I can now shift smoothly under normal acceleration but it is still a major flaw to an otherwise really fun car to drive. If you are out test driving one and have any trouble with the clutch be sure to try another. Not all XTs are created equal.
les said, "I got the insurance bill last night and it looks as if it will cost me about $150 more a year than I was paying on the 98 Forester."
If you don't mind disclosing, what was the yearly (or semiannual) cost for the '98 and for the XT? I phoned my VIN to my agent yesterday, and they have no information at all yet for the XT model.
I'm happy with 32psi all around, just don't go any lower than 29psi. 35psi feels kind of hard.
Got that C&D issue last night, I still could hardly believe it!
But rest easy, if you think your XT is grossly overpowered, here's a list of cars you could step down to, that are slower and perhaps less likely to pile up those speeding tickets:
BMW Z4 3.0 Audi TT 225hp 1.8T Porsche Boxster Honda S2000 (all 3 samples C&D has tested) Nissan 350Z convertible Porsche 911 Carrera Porsche Cayenne S Infiniti G35 coupe Volvo S60 R
For those that tied in 0-60, I used 1/4 mile as the tie-breaker.
Sadly, the EVO and Cayenne S Turbo are only 0.3s quicker, so getting one of those will probably not result in noticeably better acceleration.
You guys have a serious problem, where do you go from here? What can you own next that won't seem slow?
yes. could someone please burn some numbers on gasoline costs and bring me back to reality? Such as, I get 26 mpg on my '03 XS 5spd, lets say i get 22 mpg with premium at $0.15 more per gallon, over the course of 10,000 miles I have spent about $200 more..... hmmm, the miles to smiles ratio is....
......the new XT makes me wish someone would steal my car and strip it, thus forcing me to have to buy a XT to replace it....LOL!!!
Seriously though, when I bought my Protege5 a little over a year ago it was the perfect compromise in utility/fun-to-drive, especially when avoiding the boy-racer image of the WRX wagon. Now Subaru comes out with the XT, with even MORE utility and fun......grumble!!!! Plus the XT has some SERIOUS hauling room, even big enough for my pinball machines! Always something better around the corner......
Oh well, wish I hadn't promised my wife no cartrading for the next 4 years. So I'll just keep reading about the XT from the outside looking in here in Town Hall....
I love this car. Just took a drive at lunch time and reminds me of a big block Mach I I had when I was a kid. My worry is they'll make an even more powerful STI verision and I'll be tempted to trade this one in. It's definitely quicker than the WRX I test drove ( without any boy racer stigma!!!)and I can't wait for the aftermarket exhausts that will be available.
Jack asks "what was the yearly (or semiannual) cost for the '98 and for the XT?"
I don't remember the exact numbers. I'll look it up tonight and let you know. I based my $150 estimate on the fact I had to pay $77 more for the rest of the year.
Corkfish says "My worry is they'll make an even more powerful STI version"
From what I am reading this IS an STI version. Same engine (somewhat detuned) and a little less straight line performance. Obviously the STI would beat the XT on a twisty road or a race track. For the Forester to handle any more power I would think it would need stiffer suspension, bigger brakes, etc. I think this is going to be enough power for me. I never thought I'd say that.
A friend in the NASIOC Forester forum faxed a zip of the full C&D test to me today. Remember that 129mph observed top speed? It was NOT drag limited! Even though it was reached at about 300 rpm past the HP peak, according to C&D it was GOVERNOR limited!
My previous calculations indicated that (with what I then assumed was a 4.11 final drive), the XT would reach a drag-limited max at around 134-135mph at about 5,500-5,600 rpm (in other words, almost exactly at its stated horsepower peak).
If in fact C&D's test car was governor limited at 129 mph, that implies that without the governor, there would have been more left. Any additional mph would have carried the car even farther down the curve past the HP peak.
I interpret this as a modest indication in support of Juice's (and others') educated guess that the XT may indeed be developing more than its rated 210 hp.
I'm now estimating that minus the governor and geared correctly (probably 3.9:1), it's quite possible an otherwise stock XT might reach or slightly exceed 140 mph at 5,500-5,600 rpm.
If so, that wouldn't be too shabby for a $24,000 all-wheel-drive brick.
I looked up my insurance bill for my 98 Forester and it was $572 for full coverage for the year. I just had to pay $77 more to upgrade to the 2004 XT. There are 8 months left on the policy so that works out to $115 more per year, not $150 as I stated yesterday. My bill next year should be around $687. Not bad considering the 6 model year difference, not to mention the extra XT performance. I hope my insurance company doesn't get revised numbers for the XT.
I filled my tank again last night. I got 21.9 mpg. This was mostly stop and go driving to and from work and one highway trip of about 80 miles. Of course I am still limiting my rpms to 4500 most of the time I think this mileage is better than acceptable given the level of performance of the car.
Night and day difference over my mother's '98 Forester. Feels, rides, and drives like a completely different car. The 1-2 shift is very quick and crisp. The deceiving thing about this car, is that you don't "feel" the turbo build boost. With my Passat 1.8T and '87 GN you can literally feel the turbo. Not with this one. It seems after 3,000 - 3,500 rpm is when this thing comes alive, yet it feels like a strong 6cyl that just doesn't run out of steam. 40mph - 60mph was incredibly quick. There's also no detectible turbo lag either, which makes sense b/c the boost does not come on like a ton of bricks. It's a very gradual smooth power build.
It cornered and handled much better than my Passat. It seemed just about as quiet too, although I really wasn't paying attention. What I did notice was after the test drive, the idle wasn't smooth. Do these 2.5's have an inherent shaky idle? - it vibrated every second or so, nothing major, but you could feel it shake. Thanks!
Actually it was during the test drive. I turned it off when we parked and as I sat there to idle to let the turbo cool, I noticed the shake. At that point, the AC was off. Not a major shake, just noticable.
I'm seriously thinking about trading in my Passat for this one. I live on a mountain and last winter was pure hell, even with the FWD Passat.
re: Insurance. See? Is was understated to keep the insurance companies happy. Hopefully it'll be our little secret. I can't wait to see dyno results, I seriously think actual HP is about 250 or so.
22mpg is great for a green engine on mixed driving.
Did you say mountain? A turbo is very effective at altitude in preventing a wheezing engine.
I thought the idle shake was a trademark of the boxer engine design. It gently moves the car from side to side. Mine does it too and I assume they all do it to some extent.
That's exactly how it shook - from side to side. I guess this is normal then? BTW, it was 85 outside and we had the AC on during the test drive. I can't wait to see what the XT will feel like once it's cold outside.
Gonna buy one? They're probably going cheap. The gallons-per-mile figure must be frightening, though. And I wouldn't want to take one though an emissions inspection station...
on OEM vs aftermarket options and driving experiences. im really leaning toward a MT in a fairly basic configuration and getting local shops to upgrade my sound, insulation, put in water resistant seat coverings and spend any other savings on upgrades to my exhaust, etc. if subaru offered a more adjustable seat in the premium package, for example, i would have some incentive to go with a factory option package, but they dont, so everything else i can do better and less expensively with aftermarket upgrades..plus i get the MT! the final gear ratio could be more fuel efficient/ better top speed, but i need the acceleration at 45, not 95. now we know why GMC put the 6 speed MT in the vette...sometimes you just drive down the interstate with the cruise on. juice described shimming up the seat height on the forester ...i did exactly that procedure in several cars to get the most out of my seat adjustments, since im always in a fairly upright driving position. just make sure you use hardened bolts to replace the welds and/or riveted anchors, and torque them down tight. mark
in my local newspaper today..a 30 yo driver of a crotch rocket was arrested for 107 mph in a 65 zone. he was convicted this week and fined $1070 plus $200 court cost and $845 attorney fees! of course he outran the state trooper....but not the radio! Mark
Mark cites "in my local newspaper today..a 30 yo driver of a crotch rocket was arrested for 107 mph in a 65 zone."
The 20-year-old slug who broadsided my brother-in-law's Olds Aurora last year, killing him, was racing another car on a city street. In a 30mph zone, he was doing 85 at the point of impact according to the black box in his mommy's 6,000 pound 4WD GMC Yukon. He had no drivers license (having been suspended 7 or 8 times already) and his mommy carried only the bare legal minimum liability insurance.
Three tons of truck moving that fast - my brother in law didn't have a chance. He had just retired after 40 years at Tektronix. The Aurora was barely recognizable. The punk had his 18-month-old illegitimate daughter in his Yukon with him, while he was out racing. He also was out on bail for dealing drugs. For all that, he got 3 years.
JB: I'm sorry for your loss. I can think of some different roommates that both of those punks should have to share their cells with, if justice were to be truly served.
i used hard wood blocks the first time, but they cracked pretty quickly due to the combination of pressure and constantly changing wet/ dry conditions on the floor of a vehicle. I replaced those blocks with metal washers but i hated how they rusted . I got the best solution on a second vehicle using HDPE blocks. That material is specifially designed to be impervious to moisture, most corrosive chemicals, temperature variations or high pressure, yet it saws neatly with a band saw or hack saw and can be machined to close tolerances. In one car there was enough extra length on the original studs but in the other I had to cut off and drill out the old studs,run new hardened bolts through the floor pan ( it is reinforced in that area)and kept the nuts on the top side for access and to prevent rust from creating a structural weakness. In both cases I kept the lift under 3/4 inch to make sure I didnt change the shoulder belt angle . Now, many cars have adjustable shoulder belt angles. It made a real difference in the seat comfort for my preferred position. Mark
I'll probably have to opt for AT (keeping peace with my better half) but I can swing the $$ to go (base) XT vs (base) X. I've read (and re-read) the specs but would like to hear from owners to assist in making a persuasive argument for spending the additional $4K - aside from a kick@ss turbo, what does the XT bring to the table over the X - in day to day driving (80% city/20%freeway).
I'm convincing a pragmatist here, not a 2fast2furious riot grrrrl ;-)
akasrp asks, "would like to hear from owners to assist in making a persuasive argument for spending the additional $4K - aside from a kick@ss turbo, what does the XT bring to the table over the X - in day to day driving (80% city/20%freeway)."
After the XT was announced (but before ordering one) I spent five or six hours test-driving X/XS 5-speeds - mainly because I hadn't previously driven a Subaru. I wanted to evaluate everything but the engine to determine whether the XT was my next car or not. I was reasonably pleased with the X/XS - decent bottom-end flexibility, adequate acceleration through the gears, decent cornering/braking, and so forth. In other words, the X/XS would probably have adequately done nearly everything I might ask of it.
I bought the XT because it can also do everything, and do it at less than wide-open throttle and at less than max RPM. Where the X/XS might be able to complete a pass but with white knuckles, the XT could pass with room to spare and not even breathe hard. Where the X/XS can climb a mountain road in 4th or maybe 3rd, revving like mad, the XT will climb in a completely relaxed manner. I very much value a car having such an abundance of power on tap that no ordinary, everyday requirement strains it - or me. It used to be necessary to buy a big V-8 to get this sort of relaxed, do-anything reserve power. The XT provides it, and then some, in a tidy, lightweight, nimble, versatile, and reasonably affordable package.
It's simply the difference between having just barely enough power for some situations, and having more than you'll ever really need. What is that worth to you? For some people, the answer is 'nothing'. For me, it was the difference between buying a Forester and not buying one.
Comments
I'm so envious, guys, tell me again what you don't like about them so I can cope with my Xtreme Torque Envy? ;-)
-juice
Mark
-juice
TWRX
Rubbish. Mine had 2.2 miles on arrival and 2.6 miles three days later upon delivery to me.
At 3 to 5 miles per short test drive, four or five people may have flogged your car. Or it may be completely legit. But how can you be certain?
-Dave
I think that TWRX has spoken very well to the joys of owning a small family car that rocks your socks when called upon. keep the faith!
mark
I assume if there had been a dealer-to-dealer swap, Corkfish would have known about it - and in that case, there then would have been no mystery as to the cause of the 20 miles and he would not have been unhappy enough about the situation to post his message. Therefore, is it not logical to rule that out?
Even if a swap was the cause, I would accept that arrangement only if *I* was the one doing the driving. I'm not going to trust some part-time or contract employee to put the first 20 miles on any new car I buy.
What I do before buying a new car, I asked about how their new vehicles are delivered and where they are stored/staged. I would also check out the odos of the cars on their lot and showroom i.e. if they store their vehicle offsite which is say ~5 miles away and the showroom cars' odo shows ~8 miles, then chances are it wasn't test driven.
John (corkfish)-
Next time you drop by the dealership, take a peek at their cars' odo. Either way, at least you'll have some certainty where the ~17miles would have come from.
-Dave
I got the insurance bill last night and it looks as if it will cost me about $150 more a year than I was paying on the 98 Forester. That's not bad.
I was wrong about all the magazines testing the XT the same month. I received my Automobile magazine yesterday and it doesn't have anything about the Forester XT. It does have a blurb on the Baja Turbo that essentially didn't say anything new. Oh well, C&D should arrive any day now. By the way, all I have heard about the C&D test was the 0-60 times. What did they say? Did they like the car?
-les
Ken
If you don't mind disclosing, what was the yearly (or semiannual) cost for the '98 and for the XT?
I phoned my VIN to my agent yesterday, and they have no information at all yet for the XT model.
Got that C&D issue last night, I still could hardly believe it!
But rest easy, if you think your XT is grossly overpowered, here's a list of cars you could step down to, that are slower and perhaps less likely to pile up those speeding tickets:
BMW Z4 3.0
Audi TT 225hp 1.8T
Porsche Boxster
Honda S2000 (all 3 samples C&D has tested)
Nissan 350Z convertible
Porsche 911 Carrera
Porsche Cayenne S
Infiniti G35 coupe
Volvo S60 R
For those that tied in 0-60, I used 1/4 mile as the tie-breaker.
Sadly, the EVO and Cayenne S Turbo are only 0.3s quicker, so getting one of those will probably not result in noticeably better acceleration.
You guys have a serious problem, where do you go from here? What can you own next that won't seem slow?
OK, I feel better now. I'll go take my meds. ;-)
-juice
John
John
Seriously though, when I bought my Protege5 a little over a year ago it was the perfect compromise in utility/fun-to-drive, especially when avoiding the boy-racer image of the WRX wagon. Now Subaru comes out with the XT, with even MORE utility and fun......grumble!!!! Plus the XT has some SERIOUS hauling room, even big enough for my pinball machines! Always something better around the corner......
Oh well, wish I hadn't promised my wife no cartrading for the next 4 years. So I'll just keep reading about the XT from the outside looking in here in Town Hall....
-juice
I don't remember the exact numbers. I'll look it up tonight and let you know. I based my $150 estimate on the fact I had to pay $77 more for the rest of the year.
Corkfish says "My worry is they'll make an even more powerful STI version"
From what I am reading this IS an STI version. Same engine (somewhat detuned) and a little less straight line performance. Obviously the STI would beat the XT on a twisty road or a race track. For the Forester to handle any more power I would think it would need stiffer suspension, bigger brakes, etc. I think this is going to be enough power for me. I never thought I'd say that.
-juice
I heard that Air France is having a fire sale <bad pun> on Concordes...
Shame on you Jack (LOL)
-Dave
Cheers
Pat
My previous calculations indicated that (with what I then assumed was a 4.11 final drive), the XT would reach a drag-limited max at around 134-135mph at about 5,500-5,600 rpm (in other words, almost exactly at its stated horsepower peak).
If in fact C&D's test car was governor limited at 129 mph, that implies that without the governor, there would have been more left. Any additional mph would have carried the car even farther down the curve past the HP peak.
I interpret this as a modest indication in support of Juice's (and others') educated guess that the XT may indeed be developing more than its rated 210 hp.
I'm now estimating that minus the governor and geared correctly (probably 3.9:1), it's quite possible an otherwise stock XT might reach or slightly exceed 140 mph at 5,500-5,600 rpm.
If so, that wouldn't be too shabby for a $24,000 all-wheel-drive brick.
I filled my tank again last night. I got 21.9 mpg. This was mostly stop and go driving to and from work and one highway trip of about 80 miles. Of course I am still limiting my rpms to 4500 most of the time
It cornered and handled much better than my Passat. It seemed just about as quiet too, although I really wasn't paying attention. What I did notice was after the test drive, the idle wasn't smooth. Do these 2.5's have an inherent shaky idle? - it vibrated every second or so, nothing major, but you could feel it shake. Thanks!
-les
I'm seriously thinking about trading in my Passat for this one. I live on a mountain and last winter was pure hell, even with the FWD Passat.
re: Insurance. See? Is was understated to keep the insurance companies happy. Hopefully it'll be our little secret. I can't wait to see dyno results, I seriously think actual HP is about 250 or so.
22mpg is great for a green engine on mixed driving.
Did you say mountain? A turbo is very effective at altitude in preventing a wheezing engine.
-juice
Gonna buy one? They're probably going cheap. The gallons-per-mile figure must be frightening, though. And I wouldn't want to take one though an emissions inspection station...
jb
-juice
XT drivers, unite! Impeach all governors!
jb
-juice
juice described shimming up the seat height on the forester ...i did exactly that procedure in several cars to get the most out of my seat adjustments, since im always in a fairly upright driving position. just make sure you use hardened bolts to replace the welds and/or riveted anchors, and torque them down tight.
mark
Mark
The 20-year-old slug who broadsided my brother-in-law's Olds Aurora last year, killing him, was racing another car on a city street. In a 30mph zone, he was doing 85 at the point of impact according to the black box in his mommy's 6,000 pound 4WD GMC Yukon. He had no drivers license (having been suspended 7 or 8 times already) and his mommy carried only the bare legal minimum liability insurance.
Three tons of truck moving that fast - my brother in law didn't have a chance. He had just retired after 40 years at Tektronix. The Aurora was barely recognizable. The punk had his 18-month-old illegitimate daughter in his Yukon with him, while he was out racing. He also was out on bail for dealing drugs. For all that, he got 3 years.
jb
jb: sorry to hear about that. Ain't fair at all. That guy should be sharing a cell with that 30 year old rider on the crotch rocket.
-juice
Mark
I've read (and re-read) the specs but would like to hear from owners to assist in making a persuasive argument for spending the additional $4K - aside from a kick@ss turbo, what does the XT bring to the table over the X - in day to day driving (80% city/20%freeway).
I'm convincing a pragmatist here, not a 2fast2furious riot grrrrl ;-)
be safe,
-srp
The Forester does have adjustable seat belt anchors.
-juice
After the XT was announced (but before ordering one) I spent five or six hours test-driving X/XS 5-speeds - mainly because I hadn't previously driven a Subaru. I wanted to evaluate everything but the engine to determine whether the XT was my next car or not. I was reasonably pleased with the X/XS - decent bottom-end flexibility, adequate acceleration through the gears, decent cornering/braking, and so forth. In other words, the X/XS would probably have adequately done nearly everything I might ask of it.
I bought the XT because it can also do everything, and do it at less than wide-open throttle and at less than max RPM. Where the X/XS might be able to complete a pass but with white knuckles, the XT could pass with room to spare and not even breathe hard. Where the X/XS can climb a mountain road in 4th or maybe 3rd, revving like mad, the XT will climb in a completely relaxed manner. I very much value a car having such an abundance of power on tap that no ordinary, everyday requirement strains it - or me. It used to be necessary to buy a big V-8 to get this sort of relaxed, do-anything reserve power. The XT provides it, and then some, in a tidy, lightweight, nimble, versatile, and reasonably affordable package.
It's simply the difference between having just barely enough power for some situations, and having more than you'll ever really need. What is that worth to you? For some people, the answer is 'nothing'. For me, it was the difference between buying a Forester and not buying one.
jb