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Comments
On my drive home from work, I was frequently going through a foot of of snow, sometimes more in drifts. Several times I had to back up and drive around piles I was pushing in front.
Up and down fairly steep hills, around curves, dodging idiots, the XT just kept plowing through it. Sometimes it bobbed and weaved like a prizefighter as the differentials figured out where to send the power, but I never really felt as if the snow was about to win the fight. 'Twould be even better with a front LS diff, and I was crazy to not buy wheels and studded snows this year, but what the heck.
This is one plucky little machine. And all this forward progress happened on the same Geolanders that many people scorn.
Damned impressive, I'd say. And as you all know so well, I'm not easily impressed.
Jealous of the snow you have, the AWD you have, and the turbo power behind it!
-B
I heard the Pacific North West weather forecast and immediately was looking forward to a report from you. Good to hear from you, but when will you finally learn that all-so-important power-slide? ;-)
Even my 8-year old son is good at that (in the virtual world, that is).
Happy driving, and please, note: engine braking is for wussies, and MT Foresters don't prevent nose-dive during braking!
- D.
When I look at the messages I post, my underlined words are displayed in black. Only words (or links) that are underlined and also are displayed in blue are clickable live links that would take you to more information.
I don't follow your comment about whether opening a sunroof would help. Obviously I don't have one, but if I did, how would opening it help?
miamixt - It's funny that you complained about ballistic underlining things, and you duplicated your post. Stop duplicating posts! lol! ;-)
-Dennis
Ken
Rest assured, I did some of that, too! Old and cranky, sure, but there's still a little bit of little kid inside.
I was never able to break the tail away to produce oversteer, neither the power-on nor the power-off type. IOW, whenever I deliberately lost grip in a turn, it was always the nose that went wide first.
The antilock brakes seemed a bit better (less bad?) yesterday than when I first tested them in our earlier snowfall last week. Yesterday, when the ABS engaged, it no longer felt as if the brakes had been completely released, as it did before.
Back in June/July, I reported not liking how much assist the Forester's power steering provides. The basis for that comment was that (1) nobody needs to be able to turn a steering wheel lock-to-lock with a single finger while motionless, and any steering that has that much assist is, by my definition, overboosted. And (2), that much boost necessarily diminishes the amount of road-feel feedback that the driver gets through the steering wheel. I wondered back then how Subaru drivers ever know what their front wheels are doing in the kind of slick stuff that these cars otherwise handle so well.
Well, sure enough, when the going gets slick, the Forester's feather-light power steering doesn't give me much indication about incipient loss of front-wheel traction in snow and especially on ice. Minor quibble? Maybe, but this could make the difference between remaining safely under control and losing it in a bad situation.
-Dennis
See above <grin>
note: engine braking is for wussies,
Ballistic's a wuss, then. Except for occasionally punching the brakes to assess available traction, when I descend steep, winding Portland hills in traffic and on ice or a foot of snow, my sole goal is to reach the bottom nose before tail without doing any unplanned donuts on the way down. You should have seen our news coverage yesterday and continuing today: Moron after moron getting his SUV out of shape on a hill, losing it completely, and the ricocheting off three or four parked cars the rest of the way down. We have some long hills here, and several of these cretins slid a hundred yards or more, rotating all the way. IMO, engine braking and minimum use of the main brakes is the best way to avoid that ignominious outcome.
and MT Foresters don't prevent nose-dive during braking!
It was someone else who made that comment. I understand braking nosedive, but I didn't follow what he said about it.
I can't believe the snow y'all are getting Jack. I can't believe the snow we're getting - another 4 inches in town. One reason I moved to Boise from Anchorage was that I was tired of 20 winters of shoveling snow. I don't have to drive to the ski hill now - I can board in my front yard!
To the alarm question Akasrp, my '97 OB factory alarm's brain has dip switches to turn stuff on or off. There should be a manual around somewhere, but I had to dig deep on google to find the settings for mine.
Steve, Host
In fact, she is more comfortable with a manual transmissioned FWD vehicle (like our new Focus)than she ever was in our automatic 4WD/AWD vehicles (Expedition, Explorer).
Which bodes well for the Forester XT when she gets her new car later this summer (AWD and the option of a MT). Problem is, she also wants leather and a sunroof. Oops!
I'm seriously considering getting an XT (probably MY2005), and all the complaints here about automatic A/C make me worry.
I live in CA and drive busy freeways most of the time. I like to run A/C all the time. I don't like opening windows, and I always smell exhaust unless I put A/C in the 100% recirc mode. Interestingly, I'm on my 3rd Subaru now (have Forester MY2001), and 100% recirc mode always worked great for me.
Questions about A/C in XT:
1) if I left A/C in the 100% recirc mode, will it be still in full recirc mode next time I start the car, or do I need to manually switch it back to full recirc?
2) In my current Forester, A/C blows really strong. Often, I turn the knob to the windshield defrost position, to have air conditioned but not in my face. It works great: depending on the temp setting, I can have cold, warm, or hot air blowing up the windshiled. Is it possible to do the same on XT?
3) Is it possible to just leave A/C in manual mode and have it there all the time? Specifically, if I left in in manual mode, next time I start the car - will it be still in manual mode?
tx
--kate
Engine braking = maybe 100hp.
Brakes braking = close to 2000hp of braking
Replacing your trans/motor = $$$$
Replacing pads = $50-$100
-mike
The auto mode seems inconsistent and slow to respond. Further, my frugal nature says something is wrong when the heater and AC have to fight each other to produce a certain temperature. I would rather control the AC cycling myself and keep it on the lowest temp setting, using the fan setting or even turning the AC off manually at times.
John
I am of your opinion (except the racing part, which never interested me), I never use engine braking except going down a hill (good or bad weather). I never downshift coming up to a stop. IMO, this increases engine/clutch/tranny/diffy/cv joint wear, with no value added.
John
-mike
-Frank P.
I use engine braking most on long steep downgrades here in Colorado so as to avoid overheating the brakes. Of course the Forester handles the curves so well that I really don't have to brake that frequently, engine or otherwise. A tap on the brakes then a downshift to accelerate out of the curve is as likely.
It is possible to use the defogger/defroster to use the A/C without having it blow air in your face - you can still regulate temperature and fan speed manually. The XT’s A/C is excellent, kicks in fast and strong.
I've once read about a fellow who put chains on all four tires on his Subie and described the setup as "unstoppable".
Kate: Getting pretty serious about the XT, huh? A little turbo-envy vis-a-vis the hubby's car? ;-)
Ken
Forester (any trim)
Outback H4
Baja (any trim)
Legacy Wagon
Outback H6
Impreza Outback Sport
Impreza 2.5 TS
WRX wagon
Impreza (base) wagon
as you can see, I'm more into utility/versatility than in turbo. Although I did like acceleration in XT A LOT.
FrankP - Certainly an automatic can be manually downshifted to get an approximation of the same effect as putting a MT into a lower gear - but it has been my experince that torque converter slippage reduces the amount of engine braking (gear for gear, compared to MT) by quite a bit.
Hayduke, I tend to drop maybe one gear on long steep downgrades, partly just to avoid having to brake constantly. However, since disk brakes came into common usage (especially at all 4 wheels) I honestly cannot remember ever experiencing overheat-related brake fade. This was a completely commonplace event in the pre-disk era. With my first car ('55 Studebaker Speedster), brake overheating and fade was so prevalent that just one brisk (not panic) stop from 60mph would fill the car with hot-lining stench, and the brakes would fade enough that near the end of the stop, you were pushing the power brake pedal really hard just to maintain the same deceleration rate. One of the reasons my dad bought his '53 DeSoto wagon with a 3-speed overdrive instead of automatic was to have more options for engine braking when descending mountain ranges; else complete loss of braking from fade was a very real possibility.
Younger folks who've never driven drum brakes in demanding terrain often don't fully appreciate what a dramatic advance disk brakes are.
Ken, I just happily discovered that two pairs of cable chains I bought for our Concorde, but never used, are also the correct size for the 215/60x16 Geolanders. I'm tempted to mount 'em up and go see if I can find an icy vertical wall to climb. On second thought...all Freightliner Portland operations are closed due to the weather (highly unusual), so I'm going to stay home and toast marshmallows in the fireplace with my sweety.
I never even knew that disk brakes were less susceptible to fade than the old drums. But it's fun to shift, anyway.
Experienced fade, almost to the point of no brakes in an old German Ford, descending the Italian Alps, on the way to Monte Carlo for the Grand Prix in '78. Don't think I have seen it since then.
Have also felt some very hot rims on bicycles when descending mountain passes. I use the brakes twice as much with half the wheels.
Speaking of brakes, what's the mileage when people start needing work on the brakes? I'm at 27k now, so guess the dealer will check that at the 30k service.
However, what about downshifting in the process of normal driving, i.e. through turns, etc? Isn't this just a normal consequence of driving with a MT, and doesn't it, too, cause excessive wear on the drivetrain?
I ask as a race fan and after seeing from your profile that you race. Is it just that downshifting into stops causes unncessary wear?
Anybody else feel free to weigh in and edumacate me.
Thanks
Johnny
Invoice minus $300 on XT. Invoice plus $500 on Toy. Fun factor goes to XT. Near-Lexus ride goes to HL. Gotta make a move. One way or another...
-srp
I test drove both recently, and really liked the XT a ton. The Highlander did nothing for me. If you can put up with the noisier temperment of the XT, along with a bit less refinement, I say get the XT.
Plus, I believe the Highlander is not full time AWD like the XT. Highlander is defintely bigger, though. Really depends on your needs.
Johnny
It's a classic case of 'racing improves the breed'. Disk brakes were originally developed for aircraft, which impose a very heavy brake load while decelerating upon landing.
In the drum brake era, sports and formula car races were often won or lost based on who could nurse his brakes through the entire race and still have effective braking at the end. That all changed around 1951. Jaguar shocked the sports car world by winning the 24 Hours of LeMans - with a six-cylinder engine - five times in seven years. By no coincidence, the fabulously successful D-type Jaguars that conquered all others were the first automobiles to replace drum brakes with disks, and at all four wheels. The D-types were great cars, but their single greatest area of superiority lay in their fade-resistant brakes. They were so clearly superior to anything else that in just a few years, drum brakes at the front became anachronistic. It took several more decades before they also became commonplace at the rear.
The Forester's robust AWD system is clearly and unarguably superior to the Highlander's.
'88 Turbo T-Bird-First brake job was after 100k miles w/no driveline problems
'94 Explorer-Put on 104k miles-No brake job & no driveline problems
'01 Audi TT-Put on 60k miles-No brake job & no driveline problems
'97 Audi A4-Has 102k miles-Had the fronts done @ 80k w/no driveline problems. Can't remember but I think we recently had the rears done. Maybe not.
Maybe we've just been lucky, maybe we both make great downshifts
John
Johnny- Any time you use the engine and transmission to slow the vehicle you increase the wear on those components (albeit by a very infinitesimal amount). So if you down shift to slow your vehicle before a turn that counts but down-shifting to regain momentum and accelerate out of a turn doesn't. Basically, if the engine RPMs jump when you let the clutch out you're increasing the wear on the drivetrain.
-Frank P.
P.S. Speaking of brake fade, does anybody know if they still station a park ranger on the road down from Pikes Peak to check vehicles for over-heated brakes?
But getting me started on that is probably even worse than getting you started on lawyers.
It's the adjacent suburban communities (Beaverton, Tigard, Milwaukie, and all the rest) that have done little or nothing to rationalize their traffic lights.
Hayduke: This will shock you out of your socks, but I actually once considered becoming a lawyer instead of a CPA. My few law classes left me so deeply offended at how often cases (especially those in the personal-injury or product-liability arenas) would reach a conclusion that was utterly opposite my own deeply-held value structure and sense of right and wrong, that I occasionally got into near shouting matches with my law professors. It didn't take much of that to persuade me that I would be miserable, and probably an abject failure, trying to practice law.
Ever thought if the Oil Companies in cohoot with the Big Three are controlling those lights? ;-)
-Dave
I (and most others) use italics to denote words of others to which we're replying. The underscores are to occasionally add emphasis to my own comments.
Brake pads are a lot cheaper to replace than drivetrain components especially if your downshifting technique is a little off or slowly releasing the clutch to sync.
Oh, with regards to drums all around, you haven't experienced anything until you try to shutdown at speed with them in a heavy rain. Ah, the good old days...
-Frank P.
After all, water does make interesting bead patterns on the glass overhead...
When I lived in Michigan I never figured out why people would rather it was zero degrees and sunny than 40 and raining ..... but the extra light in the roof is wonderful so maybe now I understand them better. Forester leads to cross cultural understanding???
Anyway, after about 2 months and just over 2K miles on my 04 XT PP w/spoiler, splash guards, rear bumper cover, cargo tray and air filter, $25356:
The Good:
(1) Smoothness of ride/handling. The car is amazingly solid for something so light. My last car was a 4 door volvo sedan, one of the heaviest cars ever made, and the forester feels like it is just as solid at a thousand pounds lighter. The steering is very sensitive but also very stable and does not require constant attention, yet at least.
(2) Size of windshield. See ambient light comment above. This thing is huge. You can see everything. Also, about a week ago I took a HUGE (yes I'd underline that too if I could) rock right to my face which shook the whole car -- no damage at all to windshield!!
(3) Sound system. The CD changer and 6 speaker system is very good. I am not an audiophile and am sure there are better out there, but it sounds great to me. I really like the CD compartment just above the changer. Can't comment much on the radio b/c I bought the Chess records 4 CD box set and two or three John Lee Hooker CDs and have been driving with blues power ever since!!
(4) Rear Cargo Cover. Just because I bought a new car doesn't mean I could abandon my faithful tools and duct tape and wd40 and oil and brake fluid and so on. But I can put it all in a neat little case and tuck it away under this and it is like having a trunk. If I need to haul something bigger I put the tools in the front passenger footspace.
(5) Comfort of seat and seatbelt. I forget who was complaining about the seatbelt on the XT, but they had better never even look at a volvo. I am 6'3" 265 and the forester seatbelt is much easier and more comfortable than the volvo. Seat is comfortable, though I do agree about tip for using seat warmer on long trips. Foot and head room is excellent for such a small car and I feel like I have plenty of room.
(6) Foul weather capability. The AWD system is one of the best I have ever driven. I have yet to feel any loss of control at all. I don't practice power slide techniques, even in our deserted parking lot, but think it would be hard to lose control in any but most extreme conditions. With chains, forget it. You could go anywhere. The windshield wipers are excellent.
(7) Power of engine. I hope that my engine will last forever, because it seems like I hardly ever get to even 3K RPM, let alone redline or even 5K. Like I said, I am boring driver (years in volvo...). But, at the same time, there are situations when it is very nice to be able to stand little station wagon on its tail and move away from stupid, annoying and/or unsafe drivers/cars.
(8) Auto Trans. OK, I know some of you hate the whole idea of AT, so ignore this. But I like it. And this one is really good. It is as close to an electric car as any AT I have driven, as far as you push down and you go without really having to coax it through gears. In fact it feels like if you try to coax it through gears it gets a little upset and says "look, who knows more about this, you or me? You just push on the little pedal and let me worry about details like which gear"
(9) Sun/Moonroof. See above. I haven't ever had it all the way open, but the extra light brightens my commute every day.
The Bad:
(1) Windshield "washer" has fluid but does not spray windshield. Has not been huge issue in Oregon in winter, to say the least, but will have dealer check at first service.
(2) Climate control. Like others, I am all manual, all the time, always on far right setting (foot/defrost). It does crank out the heat though, I have to give it that!
(3) "Net" compartments in front doors -- contents can get wet when doors open and close in wet conditions ... OK, maybe that is not really the car's fault...
(4) Large windshield means large visors that won't fit the CD storage device I got for Christmas ... OK, maybe this is definitely not the car's fault and I'll stick with the huge windshield.
The Ugly:
(1) MPG average: 18 - 19. That is very conservative driving, lots of highway miles at 60-63 mph.
Overall impression: Car feels very stable, is wonderful fun to drive, is very useful for transporting medium loads, and if it proves reliable I will be very happy with it for a long time. Basically you are paying and extra $2K and $100-$200 per year in MPG and premium gas penalty to be able to go really fast when you want to, in addition to having a versatile little station wagon that holds a pretty good amount of stuff with the back seat down.
I would think if you rev match properly, downshifting is safer (than without rev match) and then also has little impact on clutch/ transmission wear. While double-clutching is the recommended practice, rev-matching while the clutch is down is also helpful. I downshift often in front of curves but rarely in front of stop lights (unless I am in a hurry and can time it with the upcoming green phase).
Any auto shop will tell you that brakes need much more frequent replacement in AT cars vs. manuals, perhaps at 60K miles vs. 100K. I agree the torque converter makes engine braking less effective. More importantly though, most people don't drive that way (switching gears in an AT) - not even if they have a tiptronic/manumatic.
Subaru often advertises the fact that the AT AWD switches power to the front (i. e., opens the clutch packs) during braking. While this will shift dynamic weight to the back and thus makes for more even braking traction, I wonder if the effect is noticeable if you don't give gas at the same time. I.e., it should only work for the second or so it takes the engine to slow down, and even then it is moderated by the torque converter.
Not many people know how to properly give gas and brake at the same time... and the ones who do, usually drive MT cars.
- D.
I use low gear on slippery downhills all the time for the same reasons that ballistic has mentioned. In the Highlander and my previous Isuzus 1st gear on the A/Ts did not hold the speed down enough so I had to use some breaking or the low range in the Isuzus. However, 1st gear in the XT A/T is low enough to hold the speed much better on a slippery, icy downhill than other cars that I have owned. I have a very steep, winding 200 ft driveway and have had no problems at all going down on ice/snow with the XT in 1st gear. Going up is never a problem w/AWD.
-Frank P.