Buick LaCrosse

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Comments

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We're here to talk about the LaCrosse, folks. I appreciate your cooperation.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Sorry, I thought every one was throwing these two cars together as the reason GM is going out of business. Hoping to get LaCrosse data soon.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Yes, I understand, it's just that we should be focusing primarily on the subject of the discussion and not get too far afield. We can talk about the GM issues here to some degree but an in-depth examination of the business issues belongs more on our News & Views board rather than here in a discussion dedicated to one sedan.

    :)
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    i guess until GM offers 5 speed automatics in their lower priced cars then the advantages of these transmissions don't exist.

    but i guess in GM world (not GM itself, but their loyal fans) everything is a success and golden with their newest sedans despite the evidence to the contrary. sorry, a coarse sounding engine mated to a 4 speed automatic doesn't cut it for a near luxury car.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    You will probably never see a 5 spd in a FWD GM car. They are working on a 6 speed with Ford. Not enough money at either company to do a new trans by themselves. Ford also just announced that there will be no profit at their company this year.

    I do not consider a $28,000 car near luxury (CXL).

    I do agree though that at least the 3.6L at $33K deserves and should have at least a 5 spd. It would also be great if all the cars had at least 5 speeds.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Whoever thinks the lacrosse isnt going to get improvements dring its lifecycle is probably wrong. I expect that Navigation, 6 speed auto and other changes will come in future model years. The impala has an 8 way driver seat so I would expect the same to apply for the '06 lacrosse. Everyone is ready to jump on this car and call it a failure. It seems like many people wanted the car to sell poorly and now that sales have been less than stellar everyone is acting like they knew the car was junk from the beginning. If the car had started out better, or gains in popularity as the year goes on I would like to see what all the naysayers have to say. I am really tired of all the ES330 vs Lacrosse comparisions when we all know the two cars will rarely be cross shopped. Real lacrosse competitors would be the Montego, Camry, Accord, Sonata, ETC. In case people havent noticed, loaded Japanese midsize cars cost about $30K which is right in the neighborhood of the Lacrosse CXS. With incentives factored in I would say the Lacrosse isnt much more than any of those cars with a heavy options load. Yes those cars have NAV, but how many people who get those cars chose Nav? I have seen one or two Camrys with that option, it just isnt a major factor.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    wasn't it GM who made the comparison to the es330 in the first place?

    the competition in the $30K plus or minus sedan market is fierce. both the lower and higher end models of the lacrosse face formidable competition.

    the new passat will be coming out this fall, the new camry will be out in a year or so, the accord a year after that. yes, the lacrosee will see improvements but so will the competition.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    It was Mr. Lutz who begged for the comparisons against the ES330.

    Seemed a bit silly to me, reminding me of when Ford tried to compare a Grenada to a Mercedes Benz!
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    "you act as if LaCrosse owners are enthusiasts or something of significance compared to the owners of Camcords and Tauruses, who treat cars like appliances"

    Where did I imply or say that? I don't think anyone is too excited about the LaCrosse either. For most it's an appliance also. I merely sid no one was really waiting for the next Camry.

    As for Hyundais, all car makers should worry about them, not just GM.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "You will probably never see a 5 spd in a FWD GM car."

    The 2003 and 2004 Saturn ION used a 5 speed auto.

    ~alpha
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The LaCrosse was never intended to compete against the ES300. The Lexus cars are way too expensive to compare to today's Buicks. LaCrosse is dead on in price and comparable in content against Camry and Accord. Overall available content is similar. LaCrosse has OnStar, back up sensors and remote start. Camry has 5 spd and nav.

    Lutz and Buick would like to see their vehicles earn back where they were 40 years ago as the affordable luxury division. They have some work to do it. Lutz, if you notice, just lost some responsibilities. Perhaps his comment had something to do with it?

    Funny, just today my father in law commented how he loved the 3.8L but now has an Impala with the new 3.4 and could not believe the 23 mpg in the city he was getting. Again, he was completely satisfied with the noise level of the OHV engines. But he rarely puts his foot into it which is where the noise really comes out.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    OK but was't that the Honda trans?
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    So? The Five Hundred's Six Speeds currently come from a Toyota affiliate in Japan! The comment made was you would never see a five speed (automatic) in a GM car. Last I checked, Saturn IS a GM car. Parts come from everywhere these days...and I doubt the LaCrosse is an exception. It could have a 5 speed (automatic) in it if GM thought that a 5 speed automatic was important to the target market. Obviously, GM didn't think having a 5 speed automatic (or manual) is.
  • verdi942verdi942 Member Posts: 304
    indifferently reviewed by the press and unfairly compared to [real world prices!] more expensive foreign competition. While the likes of CU pinned a 'mediocre' label on the car, those of us who bought them LOVED the car. It was fast, smooth, quiet, extremely competent on most roads, great on gas, FULL of content and very well priced. If I may refer the forum to MSN's owners' reviews of the Regal, you'll see what I mean. I'm still driving an '02 LS [56K miles with ZERO problems] which I intend to replace with a LaCrosse CXS. BTW, towards the end, CU ranked the Regal AHEAD of the sainted Camry for quality.
  • verdi942verdi942 Member Posts: 304
    at Edmunds.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Unfortunately for GM I do not thnk we have an affiliate in Japan that could supply a 5 spd mid size car trans. The Honda powertrain is very expensive, ie Honda is making money, lots of money, off GM.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    Personally, I can't see what all the fuss is about. I suspect most people don't even know if they have a 5 speed or a 4 speed auto. So long as it's smooth and reliable, I am happy with the 4 speeds. It's more for optics than anything IMO.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Actually the DOHC engines which have tight power bands at high RPM's run real nice with a few more speeds. Your 3.4's and 3.8's have a very wide torque band and more speeds just are not as needed.
  • brood1213brood1213 Member Posts: 27
    The Soltice(RWD) is going to have a 5 speed automatic available in the spring of 2006.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    My Intrigue (3.5L DOHC Shortstar) runs wickedly fine with a 4-speed. Could have more power on the low end but I suspect VVT would fix that low end power better than an extra gear.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Wow! There is a lot of passion for LaCrosse! There are not many posts on G6 board and it supposed to be a car for enthusiasts, kind of affordable BMW (what a joke!).

    But according to this board there still is light at the end of the tunnel, at least people talk with passion about LaCrosse. Unlike G6 it has a right V6 engine and no electric steering!
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Don't confuse numbers of posts with passion for a car. People can talk about things a lot without really caring all that much about the topic. Lots of the posts here have had more to do with GM and its marketing/problems than with the LaCrosse's particulars.

    The LaCrosse is also of great interest as it is one of the first cars that Mr. Lutz had much influence on, for good or ill...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    It was all for good, just not far enough (Lutz input). Too many financial issues(need to make money) kept it from being better. Everyone worked very hard and in fact went beyond the call of duty to get to where it is at. The domestics just have too much legacy cost and too many American negatives (high pay, high cost parts, union, health care, etc. heck there are few manufactures of anything left in this country in any industry)

    Notice the "complaints" on this board are mainly lack of content (5 spd, navigation, SIAB, power front seat recliners) which the program team really had no power over. Styling was also an issue with some feeling too conserative. Again a carryover platform controls dimensions like front overhang and interior efficiency.

    But the team did put together the best fitting interior so far at GM. Also exterior fit and finish is the best. Dimensional contol meets and exceeds Toyota Camry's. It is one of the quietest cars in the world even with the old tech 3.8L. Quality should carryon the best in the midsize market like the Century and Regal. It has a very comfortable ride and handles well.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    I personally could have passion for the CXS, it's a nice looking car with the power and handling to match. I have not tested it, but if it's similar to my Intrigue (which I love), I'm sure there would be weekly car CXS washes.

    ;)
  • crewdovecrewdove Member Posts: 1
    I am in my 5th year of driving a Regal with absolutely 0 problems and a smooth, comfortable ride. I will buy a new Lacrosse soon. I can't wait.

    Why is there so much of an issue about the transmission? I agree that most people don't know or care whether it is 4 or 5 speeds. Also, few people actually need the Navigation System unless they are traveling to an unknown site. I would like to see stability control on the CXL as an option.

    The remote start is a BIG deal on the LaCrosse. Whether you are in a cold or warm climate, how nice to be able to stand inside and start your car and let it heat or cool to your comfort.

    Edmunds recent comparison of LaCrosse, Ford 500, Avalon and Chrysler 300 failed to note LaCrosse's remote start, failed to note Avalon's lack of a split folding rear seat, and failed to make much of the Chrysler's restricted viewing which is really bad. Also, I find the LaCrosse much more attractive than the boxy Chrysler.

    No one has posted a review of the LaCrosse since January. It makes me wonder if they are selling well at all.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    March 05 8233
    Century and Regal combined sold 8940 in March 04.

    It's selling better now.

    Remote start is a great feature, I think it's standard on the Allure CXS up here.
  • rwisemrwisem Member Posts: 96
    Turned 1500 miles in our CXS. I like this car more and more. Most owners seem to. I can't believe GM got the W body to ride this well. 63Vettefp, you are right, people must have sweated the details.

    :)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Lot of but time. One person was in charge of developing the ride and Handling for the LaCrosse. A lot goes into it from tire design(huge factor), spring rates, spring lengths, bushing rates, shock valving, shock bumper rates and alot more. And then there is the change in directioni that comes from change in management to change in program direction (sporty ride to more luxury ride).

    Oh yeah it is 62 vette. Nice red one:)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Hmmm, that is almost 108,000 annual rate. NOt bad considering that is almost all retail and a little fleet(rentals).

    Up in that cold country remote start should be standard on everything. Now in mid america it probably not that needed but would be nice. And down in the hot south it should also be standard. That is one problem with US. Conditions vary so much, hard to decide what should be optional and what should be standard.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    "I would like to see stability control on the CXL as an option."

    Soon to be standard on all GM vehicles. Needs to be developed for each vehicle/ engine/suspension variation. I would not expect it could be ready for the LaCrosse until 2007?
  • fredvhfredvh Member Posts: 857
    What king of mpg are the owners of the CX or CXL getting with the 3.8l engine?
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    My 3800 Grand Prix gets about 19-20 in the city and about 30 on the highway.

    Expect about the same on a LaCrosse.
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    It's too expensive and a yawn. I don't think 4 speed automatic vs 5-speed is a huge issue if the 4 speed works really smoothly, but there are better cars available for the price.
    It isn't selling that well for a reason.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    8000+ units last month, na.. it's not selling.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    ES300/330 sold 5700 cars in March and 6900 March of 2004. My goodness thats almost a 20% drop!!! The sky is falling for Lexus. The press must be all over Lexus for such a huge drop. They are going out of business. The IS300 only sold 439 cars vs. 1000 last year!!! They better drop the Lexus division. It is pulling down Toyota.

    Bit tongue in cheek here but why is there no press on the fall of these Lexus cars? They are not that old.
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    It is common for sales to drop when models start to get near replacement with a new model. The ES330 is being replaced by fall of next year and maybe sooner.
    The LaCrosse is a brand new model that isn't meeting expectations.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    "The LaCrosse is a brand new model that isn't meeting expectations"

    According to you and a few members of the press perhaps.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Actually, word on these boards is the both the Camry and ES will be all new models that debut in the SPRING of 2006, meaning... about 12 months from now. The ES is in its 4th model year, and since Toyota typically runs 5 years and not 7-8 as does GM, it is nearing the end of its life cycle. Also, the ES sales include no factory cash or substantial financing incentives, as Lexus' strategy is to maintain profitability, even if it is at the cost of volume. This will serve to keep resale up.

    What is the current offer on the LaCrosse? I believe its $1500 cash back. In NY, thats $750 more than the Camry offers, and the same as the 4 year old Altima.

    Yes, the LaCrosse is outselling the Century and Regal of last year combined. But should it not, as a brand new model, outsell vehicles which first debuted in 1997? LaCrosse also lagged behind Five Hundred and Avalon sales (Avalon's second full month, I believe).

    ~alpha
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    I think even you would agree that it takes time for a new car with a new name to gain recognition in the market place. There is little doubt that the car got off to a somewhat slow start but as the name and word gets around I think the LaCrosse will sell just fine. You can see March sales popped up substantially from February.

    Also keep in mind that since 2001, people's mind sets are now that GM will offer incentives and that kind of thinking will keep buyers at bay until they see better rates and/or cash on the hood.

    I think the press and some people on this board want to see GM fail and love to write about it these days. It's kind of in fashion I suppose, but I think it takes more than a few months to determine whether a car is a flop.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Actually, I would LOVE to see GM do well. Simply put, a lot of the new designs simply arent up to the competition. One vehicle that I particularly like and would love to see do well (despite a lukewarm reception by Consumer Reports) is the Chevy Cobalt. Much improved interior, great ride, great engine, decent space up front, the right safety equipment, good pricing, etc. However, it still falls down in a few places- some of the switchgear is still cheap, the back seat is absurdly cramped, and its very generically styled. But I digress.

    "Also keep in mind that since 2001, people's mind sets are now that GM will offer incentives and that kind of thinking will keep buyers at bay until they see better rates and/or cash on the hood."

    This mind-set can be changed with strong products like that which Cadillac puts out (huge rebates only on the overpriced and aging Escalade and DeVilles, marginal rebates on the CTS and SRX, and basically nothing on the new STS). Or take Chrysler, with its 300 series. Chrysler continues to stuff the trunks of PT Cruisers, Neons, Durangos, etc... with cash. BUT the 300 has the hardware that consumers want, and the rebates arent prevalent. Its not a valid exucse anymore.

    My point: you can make all the excuses you want about the LaCrosse having a new name, expected rebates, or whatever, its simply not the potential success it could have been.

    GM is capable of great products, we've seen this with Cadillac. Continually churning out cars that win neither the hearts/sales from consumers or praise in the press is not going to help matters. I had high hopes for the LaCrosse, but GM cant hide what it is- a signficant upgrade of an old design that has a great engine in but its highest price trim level.

    ~alpha
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    I wasn't necessarily saying you wanted GM to fail but it seems like many others certainly do seem to take pleasure in writing about it.

    As for excuses, I'm not making any. No it's not "hot" like CTS or 300 but unless a car is hot product, even a real good car can take time get sales numbers up. You simply can not say a car is flop based on a few months of data. If sales are not good after a year, I will agree with you.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    GM builds incentive into their pricing structures. Plain and simple. They have recently admitted that they have overpriced some vehicles. And are going to try and price future vehicles with a msrp that is closer to real world transaction prices. Of course I will believe this when I see it.

    The LaCrosse seemed to get off to a slow start but has been improving. I still think that the 3.6 should be the only engine. Yes, I know it costs more - so what! Maybe the incentives could be scaled back to offset the additional cost. It would really help the LaCrosse stand out.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    bigdaddycoats-there is a huge Buick buyer base that loves the 3.8. My father and my father in law both love the 3.8. (63 and 69 years old) You may not like it, I may not like it, but there is a huge market that does. It also puts out a car at a 4cyl price point (even though the 4 is a more expensive DOHC lots of buyers hear 4 vs. V6 and nothing else).
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Yes, there is an older base that likes the 3.8. However our generation desires engines like the 3.6. And Buick really needs a younger demographic.

    The 3.6 would have really made the LaCrosse an attractive alternative to the Camcords.

    The Intrigue with the 3.5 was one of my favorite cars in its time.

    All I am saying is that the LaCrosse with the 3.6 as standard would likely sell better than the current offering.

    Imagine the LaCrosse and the G6 having the 3.6 as standard - the press would have loved it (of course they would find other issues, they are still domestic vehicles).
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    Love my Intrigue 3.5L

    The CX would be ok with a 3.8L as an entry level Buick but the CXL and CXS should all have the 3.6L, I agree. Sales are picking up and I see them on the road quite regularly now which will help.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I would love to see the 3.6 in the cheaper cars. Here is why the 3.8 is still there.

    V6 CAMCORDs are only about 25% of their volume. They have a 4 cyl. for base and 75% of volume. A 4 cylinder in the LaCrosse did not have enough power for a Buick.

    There are a lot of customers out there who love the 3.8 and they are not all over 50. Many 30 and 40 year olds have also grown up with the reliable 3.8 V6. It gets good gas mileage and as long as you are a normal driver is quiet enough unless you really floor it.

    Buick offers a CAMCORD price point with a V6 vs. their 4.

    The Intrigue and therefore Olds died because they told there loyal base that they were not for them anymore and had to over price because they did go to the expensive DOHC V6 as standard. Buick is not making that mistake. They still are building cars that older folks love. But, younger folks love the car too if they give it a chance and that is the problem. Getting 40 year olds to try the car. (notice I did not say 30 year olds)

    Volume of both the LaCrosse and the G6 will depend on price. In looking above at the comments the LaCrosse is overpriced. Add another $1500 to the CX and see wha the comments would be. Sure many would say great because they want the DOHC but many would walk away because of the higher price.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    VANMAN, the CXS is a CXL with the 3.6 plus a few needed features like suspension, dual exhaust and 17" wheels. Other than that it is the rear nameplate.

    Both have the same option packages except for the CXL unavailable stabilitrak which is coming to the CXL.

    Suppose you could release the CXL with 3.6 w/o 17's and suspension, but why? FAr as I am concerned the car needs 17's to make it look Nice.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    If I was buying I would just get a base CXS. It has everything I really need for about the same MSRP as my Intrigue GL. I would also get leather and remote start, things my Trig doesn't have.

    My thinking is, if the CXL had a 3.6L then I could buy without leather as I don't care for it. It could delete a few other things also and save me some $$. I guess in the end it doesn't matter much, I think the 3.8L CX to compete with the 4 banger Camcords of the world makes sense.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I really dont understand how people try and make the point that the LaCrosse CX is a competitor to the Camry LE and Accord LX 4 cylinders, which undercut it in price by about $2700.

    The LaCrosse CX is almost a dead match in terms of price against the Camry LE V6, and Accord LX V6. AND (!), the LaCrosse lacks several of the standards on those models such as (I'm talking Camry here) steering wheel audio controls, ABS, alloy wheels, 10 way-power adjustable driver's seat, electroluminescent instrumentation, etc.

    Including Destination:
    LaCrosse CX (no options): $23,495
    Camry LE V6 (no options): $23,070
    Accord LX V6 (no options available): $24,465 (the Accord is priced higher owing to further standards above the LaCrosse CX and Camry LE V6, such as traction control, side curtain airbags, and 6 disc in dash CD changer).

    ~alpha
  • verdi942verdi942 Member Posts: 304
    and going over to the Buick store to buy a [because of the standard 6cyl!] Century for the same REAL WORLD price. Except a Regal LS for only a few $$ more snagged me as I walked in the door. I still have a second, replacement Regal. To replace it, the only LaCrosse that interests me [Though I'm closing in on Medicare] is the loaded CXS, which, given the competition from the likes of Avalon or a loaded Camry 6, is overpriced by about $5K. Just one made-in-USA [I know, Canada] loyalist's view...
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