People may not know whether a car is OHC or OHV valve but they know which one is smoother during the test drive.
I have never seen a OHV engine that is as smooth as a OHC.
My next car will be OHC.
Regarding the post that said a iron block engine weighs 500 more lbs than an aluminum one. Nope, 80-120lbs. Also I don'tnow of any 6 ton trucks. There are a lot of 4800-6000lb trucks but no 6 tonners.
If sales were down that far, I would agree things are bad at Buick, even more than I do now.
Sales are also down, and the target market is disappearing day by day, to the cemeteries and to the competition.
A chevyguy here chastized me recently for intending to get a Ford Five Hundred without even looking at the LaCrosse. Well, from what I have seen so far, all I have say is this:
THIS is what I was supposed to wait for?
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
My last three cars have been GM products. I doubt sincerely the next one will be. From the Grand Prix to the Maxx to the LaCrosse, GM vehicles, except Cadillac, just keep migrating further and further from what I want. Sad. I guess all that GM credit card incentive money will be wasted....
And my wants are NOT necessarily in the OHC department. More like quality interiors, no OBVIOUS cheap cost cutting, a back seat real adults can actually sit in (not with a fast sloped rear portion of the roof such that no one over 5' 8" can sit in the back--see Grand Prix, G6, etc---so neither coupe buyers nor sedan buyers are actually satisfied, but it sure does LOOK nice) etc.
It was fun. It is almost certainly over. And I find it all very, very sad.
I just hope the Five Hundred doesn't similarly disappoint when it arrives...
Buick car sales were down big in 2003. No sugar coating it, they need this car in the showroom ASAP and need to get a couple of other new models in also.
bravedave, since it wasn't on display at the big auto shows, I doubt that many (if any) photos are available yet.
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You're fighting a loosing battle in this forum, friends. Many on this group are the last remaining diehards who'll keep the domestics on life support while they keep churning out reskins, rewarmings of previous models, and more "it's good enough" designs. It seems like our automakers no longer have the drive the build *the best* of a certain model, but just ones that are "competitive."
Oh, some of you might say, this is just the beginning of the onslaught, the "year of the car," or "they're refocusing on their core brands now." They've woken up to the VW/Audi interiors, the Toyota engines, the BMW handling, and the Nissan styling and are now focused and hungry! Well, I don't know how old everyone else is here, but I'm 29 and have been buying auto enthusiast mags since I was 12 and have been reading the same *CRAP* over and over and over for 17 years, and it just never changes.
What do we have now? Rewarmed Freestars that don't sell, previously uncompetitive platforms that are reskinned and sold as "premium," rebadged trucks as "luxury SUV's," and (save for Cadillac and muscled-up versions of generally unsuccessful models like the Neon), a lack of much modern enthusiast focus at all. Ancient engines like the 3800 soldier on, proven failed platforms like the newly christened "sport SUV" minivans get remarketed, and embarrassments like the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Town Car, DeVille, Neon, new Colorado interior, lack of importation of the new redone Euro Focus, Mercury's/Lincoln's/Buick's/Saturn's reasons to exist, etc. are allowed to continue. And despite all the apologists, the sales continue to drop...
To keep this message somewhat focused, here is my take on the LaCrosse: Styling: Acceptable, but a big let down from the revolutionary concept car. Obviously (and depressingly) a Grand Prix reskin, probably with the same packaging and drivability problems. GM has got to shorten their overhangs, which give away the age of their platforms. Interior: We have yet to see it, but even if it rocks, it'll just move GM up to the "competing" rung with the competition. How about beating them? Pricing: We'll see... In summary: It looks OK, but there's no reason to buy it over anything else already on the market.
from today's newswires which contains insights into the LaCrosse (and the Montego). I doubt we'll see the interior and back end until Wed., since that's the official intro for the press.
Not to derail this discussion, but the more I hear about Lutz (whom I liked a lot at first), the more I think he'll be the one to finally drive me away from GM.
We now know that he had nothing to do with the CTS and ION and only a small hand in the GP and Malibu, all of which need fixing to one degree or another. But the LaCrosse is his all the way, and it looks to me like a Taurus ran into a Sonata, and then backed up into a Grand Prix. THIS is what's supposed to be a Lexus competitor?
I give him credit for at least trying.
The article (I didn't dream this up, so don't chastise me) clearly states that GM is still big in the midwest, and I do get the idea that a large number of GM-diehards in here and in other discussions are located there or near there.
I am furious with GM at the moment, for the simple reason, that with the Malib, they took away some stuff I liked (like legroom), gave me some stuff I could care less about (like remote start that would only increase GM revenues since I'd burn out an A/C compressor every other week, since you'd have it running full-tilt with the windows up, XM radio (which is great for areas away from big cities), and on and on. Then they jack up the price by $4,000, scale back rebates (when they do increase rebates, up goes the sticker accordingly), and now I find out that because my-gen Malibu was so trouble-prone, that the price of an extended warranty has more than doubled since I bought my car.
Ford is playing some similar games.
I don't understand how the US auto industry will EVER survive with these kind of shenanigans.
GM is overloaded with huge pension costs, and their labor contracts are way too high. And I should pay for that?
Maybe those of you in the midwest might stick around, but the left and right coasts are being driven away even more. Heck, a Hyundai is even on my short list this go 'round. In 25+ years of driving, I've never had an import and only one non-GM product (a Mercury), but this kind of attitute fom Detroit is making it look like I'll be switching to Japan or Korea and never returning. And I'm sure there are thousands out there that feel like I do.
chevyguy : "I am furious with GM at the moment, for the simple reason, that with the Malib, they took away some stuff I liked (like legroom)". New Malibu has more leg room than the old? Furious seems a bit strong?
theo : Car looks pretty good. It's not my thing (neither is a Lexus), but I can see older crowd buying in. The interior looks we will have to wait on I guess.
I like the AutoWeek photos, esp rear 3/4 view. Good stance and subtle, flowing styling. Great-looking wheels. Nicely shaped details at trunk and hips/ shoulders. And, it's not in silver!!
Sure, it looks like alot of other cars, yet I don't think in a bad way. Side shot of front end looks kind of low and Elantra-ish, but I'll give it good stare in person four days from now, and hopefully get a better impression! Go Buick. The Spirit of American Style.
p.s. that's me: the "older crowd"!! But seriously, I want a new GTO!
Well, now it's for sure that the car will appeal to current Century owners. Does that look like a $33,000 vehicle to you? Not to me. The roofline came right off the GP. "Older folks" in FL and AZ buy a fair amount of American iron (but Century owners that paid $20K or less won't go for $33K), but they also buy a ton of stuff from Japan, Inc. The LaCrosse won't get them back.
dindak, my post said that the new Malibu has LESS legroom than mine. And the other thing they took away was fairly nice looks.
johncline, kindly stop talking about "the guy in the GP forum...". Yes, that was me but I thought the LaC would look like the spy shots of '01, not this "thing". So, go pay $35K (estimated) for an AWD non-descript looking 500, and after its 8th recall, don't start wondering whether you should have paid $30K for another Impala LS (pre-rebates) instead. Both are priced in the laughable range.
IMO, the answer for Detroit is to introduce better-styled vehicles with immaculate quality (guess the overpaid workers will actually have to work) and more features than the competition, WITHOUT RAISING PRICES (to try to get Buicks on a pricing level with Lexuses, for example). They can ditch the rebates under this scenario, as long as prices don't skyrocket with new models. Owner loyalty incentives would help as well. Lutz is doing some of this, but the price hikes are ridiculous. A huge jump in price, with no guarantee of reliability. This tact will fail until GM gets its quality reputation back first.
Meanwhile a lower-priced, similarly-equipped, more reliable (at least they'll be more reliable in short order) Hyundai or Kia will steal buyers from GM, Ford and to a certain extent, DC. And bye-bye goes Detroit.
P.S. Ford's touting of the GT during the SB Pre-game show was also laughable. Really laughable.
I know so many of my friends etc. in the midwest here that are diehard GM fans. They buy em because its all their families ever bought. they won't even test drive anything else, even if it appeals to them. Its like they committed a sin and have to see a priest if they look at anything besides a GM!
I loved it the one time my friend rented a Passat (it was the previous boxy version) and he commented on how sporty it felt and how tight and well it handled. I asked him if he would ever buy one and he said, "no way!". Only because of his undying allegiance to the general.
Is this bad? Not necessarily. But when it puts blinders on you to what is really going on with the competition, the loyalty has gotten in the way.
so I won't get into it much more but folks seem to be vastly divided on GM. Folks either despise them, or think its greater than winning the lottery. A few ride the fence and hope GM can turn its ship around before its too late (I am one of those).
In the midwest there is a much greater percentage of those who unrelentingly buy anything with a GM badge on it, than there is in more urban centered areas.
As far as those pictures just posted of this new Taurus.....oops, LaCrosse.........
Pleasant enough. The comment about the overhangs giving away the age of the platform is true. This is an ok looking car but does not reflect modern design trends of bigger wheels, shorter overhangs, taller cabins.
The interior had better come up big here. This car could be a mild surprise in the market if
-the price is kept low.... -the interior is high quality and a nice design - and they make plenty of the new engines available for build right away and get a buzz in the market going ASAP about the new refined powertrain.
You guys dont have a clue what it takes to sell a car like the Lacrosse, nor do you pay attention to what's going on in the industry. As usual, the same old anti-GM people are making the same old arguments. If you don't like the LaCrosse or GM then don't buy their products. It seems very simple to me. THere is no way in hell this car is going to handle like a BMW, comfort you like a $60K LS430 and be cheaper than the current car. That is what you call a fantasy. You people have all declared the car a flop because it doesn't crush the competition. If the competition is as good as you say, is it really realistic to expect this Buick to instantly steal customers from the class leaders? It isnt so just drop the idea. The purpose of this car is to give buick a midsize car that can hold its own against the Passat, Accord, Camry and Avalon. No longer will Buick dealers be embarrassed when their offereing is cross shopped with the imports. As I said before, those of you who continue to question the interior obviously have not looked at recent GM efforts. The Cobalt, the malibu, the G6 and the GTO all show a huge leap forward in GM interiors. These are not words from a fanatic, that's just the reality so except it and move on. It is also ridiculous to expect this car to have a low price considering it's option list. Buick is not trying to become the American Hyundai so there is no reason they should try to sell this car on price alone. Everyone is saying that this car will be towards the back of class and won't be a sales success, but no one is offering legit reasoning. The 3800? I doubt it, the Lesabre has been outselling the "refined" Avalon for years with the 3800. The four speed auto? I doubt that as well, most people don't know the difference. GM is going from four speeds to six speeds so you can forget about ever seeing a five speed in this car.
And whoever said this car needs to be designed to attract young people is also way off base. Toyota and Lexus have "older" customers and they are very successful. Most older people have higher income and those are the ones Buick wants. They arent competing with Scion or Mitsubishi.
One of things that is interesting about edmund's is that post activity is high with each press release and auto show. Activity builds right before the car is introduced. Stays high for a few months or so then falls off precipitously.
There are some vehicles that transcend that but I can guarantee you this will not be one of them. It is not polarizing enough.
The CTS thread had a lot of the same arguments that we have now. But it's styling was much more polarizing than this car. The CTS is now selling at at rate 2 times what Cadillac thought it would. But there have been no posts in 2 days. The Impala now sells 267,000 cars a year but sometimes there are no posts for days also.
I predict that the Lacrosse will fall by the wayside also. It will sell better than the Regal, but it will not sell like the Century and Regal used to together. Which was close to 200,000 cars a year at one point.
Frankly I fear for Buick's existence. And think maybe it should have been killed off before Oldsmobile.
The Lacrosse has some good angles but it should be more expensive looking.
1487, Nothing wrong with sharing the GP roof panel. The Impala shares it's panel with last generation GP. The regal, Century and Intrigue shared the same roof panel also.
The current Hyundai Sonata has much better reliabilty than the last Malibu did. Every single one of its models is at least "average". GM doesn't come close. My data is from last April's Consumer Reports New Car Issue, and a new one will be here in a month, so we'll have more current info. I'm talking LONG-TERM quality, not initial quality. The first 90 days are nearly meaningless.
The new Malibu has less legroom than the old one, in reality. GM is playing measurement games by printing 0.5" greater legroom in the back (they claim the same in front). Hyundai claims 2" less legroom in the back of a Sonata, but when I sat in one I could fit much more easily (with both front seats all the way back) than I could in the Bu.
The LaCrosse will be priced way too high, despite possible content increases. And then will probably depreciate like a brick in a lake once mediocre crash-test results come in. Look at the GP. And $2500 rebates already to move it.
Speaking of rebates, the 3/04 issue of MT reports that the Impala was the single largest percentage sales gainer for cars in MY '03 (40%). GM raised incentives to as high as $4,000 during the year. So the car was initially priced $4,000 too high.
I'm certainly not anti-GM, but I fear that it's losing it's way. And with low-cost producers like Hyundai rapidly gaining in saavy, quality and market share, there's not a moment to waste. It might be too late already.
Ford is amiss also right now. Spending all that money on the GT, and now fussing relentlessly over model names (all Fords must begin with an "F", Mustang excepted, and all Mercury's must begin with an "M"). I should think more important things to worry about.
GM is REALLY playing a game now. Impala has had a 1K price increase every year. For comparison Lexus LS 430 had a $500 increase from '02-'03.
Since 9/11 GM has increased pricing on all of it's vehicles greatly. Even Oldsmobiles.
Would you pay $31.5K for an Impala SS?
I can go buy one for $25K right now.
GM has opened up a can of worms with this rebate/price increase thing.
It is not good at all.
Gm made money last year because of GMAC. Their car offerings are noncompetitve. Their SUVs are growing long in the tooth, and the big profits that they once saw in them are going away.
the LaCrosse rear end is pretty elegant and subtle. Probably the best part of the car. (unless the interior is a knock out) My neighbors might buy a LaCrosse. A couple with two kids in their 50's, drive a pair of Buick Centurys (loaded) They're probably the Buick target audience for the new LaCrosse, albiet they'll probably go for the lower end models. (Think the CX and CXL)
I don't know about you guys, but I really like the profile. Very smooth, vey sleek. The back looks like the E500, and the front looks like the GS. Very sharp, especially in that color.
the hood is so long you can land aircraft carriers on it. Why waste the vehicle length on space in front of the front wheels when it would do a lot more use in the passenger cabin or in the trunk? They could lop off 8-10 inches in front of the windshield and the car would look much better and not so much like a 60's 70's relic. Hey Buick, that's a nice Taurus you got there. Hood's a bit long.....cars don't need that much room up front unless you got a dinosaur of an engine under the acre large hood. Engineers can make plenty of crush space in shorter front ends these days. C'mon guys, put that space on the interior where it helps.
1487....no need to get your feathers in a bunch. Clearly you see no importance in giving cars content that is competitive with the other cars currently on the market. And clearly you see no purpose in Buick trying to get a younger customer base.
you are basically wrong, but if that's what works for you, fine by me. this whole site is about opinions. Buick's sales are dropping....what does that mean?
Do you NOT see any value in trying to match the features of other competing vehicles in this expensive segment of the market?
Sorry. Looks are subjective. ALL I see in this car is 96 Taurus. But I do agree, Buick is and looks to remain an older persons' car. That being the case, most people in this age group want functionality, not gimmickry. Don't even ask me how I know that!
That being said, I think the success (or failure) of this car will depend more on pricing than anything else. This is by no means a "GOTTA HAVE" product that Lutz claims he shoots for.
You kill me man. First off, what brand do you like? What car with a transversed mounted engine has an extremely short overhang? What does the design of the engine have to do with the overhang? Obsolutely nothing. If you knew anything which is clearly not the case, you would know that GMs W cars use "axis mounting" which mounts the transmission on the centerline of the front axle which pushes the front of the engine a little foward. You claim they could just take off 8-10 inches in the front? Are you serious? You make me laugh with some of these riduculous opinions and suggestions. What features does the LaCrosse lack to the competition, please tell me? Look at the new Ford 500. That car is as plain as they come but I'm sure people will buy it and it does have a nice interior. But, it doesn't appear to be anything better than the LaCrosse other than the fact that it's a little bigger in the back seat. You are so completely off base that it would take a dozen posts to get you back on track. Other than navigation, what additional features do the Accord, Camry, etc offer. Even so, GM is usually steps ahead of Ford and Chysler in almost every category. Ford is marketing two 3800 plus pound vehicles (Freestyle and 500) with the same Duratec that was outperformed in every category by the 3800 years ago. Yet, I've never read or heard anything negative about that move.
Chevy dude, "The LaCrosse is priced way too high" Compared to what my man? Just about every midsized car will touch close to $30k maxxed out with all the options. Have you ever priced an Avalon? If you haven't, you should and come talk to me in the morning.
It still kills me how certain people are critical of the LaCrosse styling when products like the Camry, Accord, ES330, Avalon, Maxima, etc exist. The Cam/Acc are some of the most boring uninspired cars on the road, and have been so for decades. The ES330 (since some of you seem to think is a competitor) has to be in the top 5 ugliest vehicles on the road (talk about your long overhangs) and the Maxima looks like someone just went wild in afterschool detention. Once again, GM always catches the flak. I'm just glad GM hasn't adopted the short wheelbase, SUV high roof look in it's cars.
Some of you seem to forget that selling cars is about making money, not making us happy.
All the "experts" here already know the car is a flop, it's too expensive, it's too small inside and it's not refined. Funny thing is the car has not been seen or driven by anyone (out side GM) yet and we have yet to find out the details of the car. Seems to me 1/2 the people in this form are GM bashers or people who just like critique everything because they know better and obviously have a lot of time on their hands.
Chevyguy - I know you have a last generation Malibu. My wife had two of them and liked them very much. She now has an '04 LT and gushes over it daily. It really is a better car. We had both the '02 and '04 at home for awhile and I was able to leisurely compare the two in various areas.
The '04 does NOT have less rear legroom. I put a tape measure to it and repeatedly sat in both. The '04 is roomier-hiproom, too.
This will be my last post in this forum, since I'd never buy a LC. I'll continue to take my anger with GM out in the Malibu forums, though, since the overpriced Malibu is most likely the GM product I'd buy.
chavis10: Yes, the Avalon is priced in the low to mid $30s. But it's also excellent in the reliability area, whereas, judging by GMs past record of getting it right just as a model is about to be put out to pasture, you can probably expect only average reliability on the LC, and a depreciation picture MUCH gloomier.
GM is in the biz of making money and not pleasing people, huh? Well, they'd better get a new attitude and do both.
rwisem: Nice pic. Of course it had to show off the only shot of the new Bu that's attractive.
I seem to recall that you lease, so this is a moot point for you, but for those that want to pay $5,000 more year-over-year for a loaded Malibu sedan (after discounts/rebates), fine with me. Just don't start whining when trade-in time nears.
Bottom line on the rear legroom issue is that the '04 Bu is shorter and rides on a shorter wheelbase. Regardless of what the tape measure says, I can't fit in the back seat of it when the driver's seat is all the way back (could be the hard plastic now on the seatback) and I can in mine, which has nice soft vinyl.
The LC is a rehash of a platform that's been around since MY '97 and is not competitive. Nor is it worth the price that will be charged.
MT, in its March issue comments that Ford will have a major hit on its hands IF the 500 is priced competitvely (of course, they fail to state what competitvely is). Was worth a good laugh.
In their "Department of Corrections", they, for the second time, have commented now on how great a bargain the new Malibu is (I'm not getting into how blurred their vision was in this forum; 'tis been hashed to death in the Malibu forum). Can't wait to see the irate letters they print about the original assertion next month.
The main problem with GM bashers, like Regfootball (and Mr. Shiftright is guilty of this also), is that they keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over. They just won't state their opinion and move on.
So let me get this straight, a car that is "reliable" is allowed to be overpriced by a couple thousand dollars? When did I say just GM is all about making money? I believe I wrote "selling CARS is all about making money..." That means ALL CAR COMPANIES. Do you think Toyota or Honda cars about you and me? Do you know anyone who owns one of the two? Ask them how the service staff or dealer staff treats them. So it seems to me that some of you are saying that it's okay to pay too much for a car as long as it's "reliable" I think we're all glad that was your last post. Once more dumb question for you, why is the Malibu overpriced? Where are you getting these riduculous notions about pricing? A honda Civic might be the most overpriced vehicle judged by it's segment.
chavis10 : Best thing you can do is ignore "chevyguy" at this point. I don't think he knows what he wants and he thinks everything is smaller, too expensive or no good. The arguments made are one using false data and info also. No point arguing with that.
rwisem : Wow, you must like your Malibus. The new one is growing on me looks wise. My test drive proved to me it's a nice driver!
LOL these posts are funny! The pro-GM people say the anti-GM people are wrong and the anti-GM people say the pro-GM people are wrong. So, who's right and who's wrong!?! LOL
Back to the LaCrosse:
I'm having much doubt that the new LaCrosse will lure buyers away from Lexus. The Rendezvous has subjective looks and not-as-good-as-Lexus crash tests scored. Same goes for the Rainier, except that it looks REALLY GOOD. But, with a car like the LaCrosse, Buick can trash its dreams of appealing to younger buyers in their 30s-40s.
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Their current customer base is almost all dead and gone. At some point you need to go from the 65+ crowd down to at least 40. Those folks are spending wads of cash on family sedans with a 'comfort/luxury' bent and they ain't buyin enough Buicks.
For Buick, they don't need to abondon the 65+ market as much as they need to expand it. Certainly they can make Buicks that appeal to the blue hairs as well as those younger who want a quiet comfortable cruiser sedan. Thing is the current Buick products don't do it. this LaCrosse might get a few younger buyers. But I am suggesting that unless the price is attractive and the interior is a smash the looks alone may not be enough to do it. Having a real engine underhood (3.6) available certainly will help with the younger buyers accustomed to the excellence of the other competing products.
By competing products, I mean cars NOT produced by GM, BTW.
reg : Getting the AVERAGE down a little is fine, but 40 is optimistic. I'll bet the average for an Accord is probably 40. People much under that generally can't generally afford a $30K+ car. Really the target should be boomers in their mid 40's to 50's and this car seems to hit the mark.
rctennis3811 : You have to admit, there is a lot of speculation as opposed to fact which is non-existent so far.
Reliability: Having bulletproof reliability (or at least the reputation for such) definitely allows you to price higher. People will pay extra for the expectation of fewer repairs and higher residuals. Yup, the Civic may be way overpriced (as is the Jetta, Passat, etc.), but guess what? People are willing to pay without incentives on the hood...
Age: I look at my parents. They're in their mid-fifties and are the perfect target audience for Buick. They've bought domestic and import over the years and have the money to afford a 30K car. And guess what? Buick isn't even on their radar screen. It is, along with Lincoln and the soon to depart Oldsmobile, "my parents or uncles" car. Their parents and uncles are in their 70's to 90's. This is why Buick is in trouble and why they need to expand their ownership range.
I know styling is subjective, but I don't think the LaCrosse will be enough to get the attention of people like my parents who aren't "into" cars. But guess what? They've seen articles in the newspaper about the new 300C, and it's caught their attention because it's "distinctive" and they are going to take a test drive when it's available. Think the LaCrosse will similarly do that with import buyers?
I don't think it's badly styled, and it'll be a quite good and competitive car I'm sure. I'm just not sure it's *enough*.
"Really the target should be boomers in their mid 40's to 50's and this car seems to hit the mark."
I can agree with that. Keep in mind that's a generation raised on import culture.
"People much under that generally can't generally afford a $30K+ car."
I dunno what its like where you are, but where I drive around there is plenty of 20 and 30 somethings driving around in 30+ cars. And none of them are domestics.........
its so frustrating to want to buy a 'domestic' badly, but not being able to justify doing it because there is nothing as appealing or as well built in so many market segments. But that's a whole nother issue.
reg : Well, maybe we Canadians are poor. I see lots of nice cars on the road but the people driving them are usually in their mid 40's and up. Downtown Toronto you will see some younger financial / legal types driving Beeeemers and such, but they would not buy a Buick even if it was an identical twin of a BMW or Acura.
bretaa : I dunno, does a Lexus look much better than this Buick? Really in this class, looks seem secondary to comfort, refinement and luxury. I personally don't care for any of them in terms of looks but the older crowd seems to like these kind of cars.
To dindak: Oh, I certainly agree with your Lexus comment. I think the LaCrosse is much better looking than the horrid ES330 and also better than the Mercedes C-Class and Passat.
But my point is that Buick has to get people's *attention* first. They don't have the built-in reputation, prestige, or reliability *reputation* (even if in surveys they are better) of those other brands. As long as their "father's" Park Avenue (a name that needs to go) with horrid fake portholes and fake wood is sitting there on the lot with "rental car" Centurys, my parents are never stepping foot in the dealer. I'll admit 100% that it's a shallow, materialistic self image thing, but, guess what... It's real. They need to deal with it and break out of the mold. If I were interested in the LaCrosse-type of car, I'd probably buy it because I'm into cars and know "the score," but my parents never would. I agree with Lutz. Buick needs to be an American Jaguar or Lexus, and the LaCrosse is a decent first step. Hopefully, in 10-15 years and with much shortened model lives, they'll be there.
Also, there are lots of 20 and 30 somethings around here (Minnesota) with 30K+ cars as well. I'm 29 and, if not for a decision to do some additional professional training for the next 3 years, my 26K CPO '01 BMW would have been a new 36K one.
Regfootball: Right on as usual. You're especially correct that the "old folks" in their 50's and early 60's were raised on VW's, Toyotas, Nissans, and the like. They also now own those same brands or Lexi, Audi, BMW, etc. My father's first car was a VW bug, my mother's a Toyota Corona. I think the first car they bought new from a dealership and new used was an '84 Nissan Stanza. The "old folks" are no longer domestic slam dunks.
I'm amazed how regfootball and others already know the pricing of the LaCrosse. Did I miss something? People have condemned the pricing before the pricing has been disclosed. This car is not a direct ES330 or TL competitor and I don't know why all the GM haters are pretending as such. This car has to replace the Century and the Regal so it will have to be priced similarly. I would expect it to start at $24-$25K at the most. I'm sure it will go up to $30K+ fully loaded but that is the norm for these types of cars.
Once again I see people are still stuck in the 80s when it comes to GM's quality. If any of you take the time to consult publications other than Consumer reports you will find that GM's quality is better than the other Domestics and some imports. And I'm not talking about initial quality. Even in long term (5 year) studies done by JD Power Buick scores near the top. I believe Buick and Cadillac are in the top 5 or 6. Check the website. Buick has a reputation for serving seniors, but it does not have a bad rep in terms of quality.
As for incentives, what does that have to do with the Lacrosse? People are predicting incentives before the car hits the street. As for the imports not offering incentives, that is complete BS. Do you people ever check the Sunday papers? The american companies discount their cars on the national level, but the imports let their dealers do the dirty work. I have a friend who just leased a TSX (a highly regarded car) and got Nav and 3000 extra miles/year thrown in for free. That has to be worth at least $3000. In the paper I see toyotas advertised for $3000+ off MSRP. They couldn't compete otherwise. There is a difference between reality and the reality peddled by the automotive press. It is obvious that many of the opinions here come straight from CR and Car & driver. Please join me in the real world where most non-luxury cars are discounted.
a lot of people are concerned (well so they say) about the lacrosse not having the type of styling to attract import owners. First of all I don't think the primary buyers of this car will own an import. Secondly, anyone who owns a Japanese car isn't really into styling anyway. Cars like the camry and accord sell because of their reputation, ergonomics and nice interiors. Import buyers are not concerned with sexy styling. That said, the Lacrosse looks better than any Japanese midsize sedan except the altima.
"This car is not a direct ES330 or TL competitor and I don't know why all the GM haters are pretending as such."
It's probably because Lutz said that the LaCrosse will lure buyers away from Lexus. So that's why some are comparing it to as of why someone would move away from Lexus to a LaCrosse.
Wow, you think the LaCrosse styling is better than a Mazda 6 too!?! Whew, now I've heard everything!!
Comments
I have never seen a OHV engine that is as smooth as a OHC.
My next car will be OHC.
Regarding the post that said a iron block engine weighs 500 more lbs than an aluminum one.
Nope, 80-120lbs.
Also I don'tnow of any 6 ton trucks.
There are a lot of 4800-6000lb trucks but no 6 tonners.
If sales were down that far, I would agree things are bad at Buick, even more than I do now.
Sales are also down, and the target market is disappearing day by day, to the cemeteries and to the competition.
A chevyguy here chastized me recently for intending to get a Ford Five Hundred without even looking at the LaCrosse. Well, from what I have seen so far, all I have say is this:
THIS is what I was supposed to wait for?
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
My last three cars have been GM products. I doubt sincerely the next one will be. From the Grand Prix to the Maxx to the LaCrosse, GM vehicles, except Cadillac, just keep migrating further and further from what I want. Sad. I guess all that GM credit card incentive money will be wasted....
And my wants are NOT necessarily in the OHC department. More like quality interiors, no OBVIOUS cheap cost cutting, a back seat real adults can actually sit in (not with a fast sloped rear portion of the roof such that no one over 5' 8" can sit in the back--see Grand Prix, G6, etc---so neither coupe buyers nor sedan buyers are actually satisfied, but it sure does LOOK nice) etc.
It was fun. It is almost certainly over. And I find it all very, very sad.
I just hope the Five Hundred doesn't similarly disappoint when it arrives...
OHV OHC...bla bla bla..
Thanks!
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Oh, some of you might say, this is just the beginning of the onslaught, the "year of the car," or "they're refocusing on their core brands now." They've woken up to the VW/Audi interiors, the Toyota engines, the BMW handling, and the Nissan styling and are now focused and hungry! Well, I don't know how old everyone else is here, but I'm 29 and have been buying auto enthusiast mags since I was 12 and have been reading the same *CRAP* over and over and over for 17 years, and it just never changes.
What do we have now? Rewarmed Freestars that don't sell, previously uncompetitive platforms that are reskinned and sold as "premium," rebadged trucks as "luxury SUV's," and (save for Cadillac and muscled-up versions of generally unsuccessful models like the Neon), a lack of much modern enthusiast focus at all. Ancient engines like the 3800 soldier on, proven failed platforms like the newly christened "sport SUV" minivans get remarketed, and embarrassments like the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Town Car, DeVille, Neon, new Colorado interior, lack of importation of the new redone Euro Focus, Mercury's/Lincoln's/Buick's/Saturn's reasons to exist, etc. are allowed to continue. And despite all the apologists, the sales continue to drop...
To keep this message somewhat focused, here is my take on the LaCrosse:
Styling: Acceptable, but a big let down from the revolutionary concept car. Obviously (and depressingly) a Grand Prix reskin, probably with the same packaging and drivability problems. GM has got to shorten their overhangs, which give away the age of their platforms.
Interior: We have yet to see it, but even if it rocks, it'll just move GM up to the "competing" rung with the competition. How about beating them?
Pricing: We'll see...
In summary: It looks OK, but there's no reason to buy it over anything else already on the market.
Bret
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=09906186
Not to derail this discussion, but the more I hear about Lutz (whom I liked a lot at first), the more I think he'll be the one to finally drive me away from GM.
We now know that he had nothing to do with the CTS and ION and only a small hand in the GP and Malibu, all of which need fixing to one degree or another. But the LaCrosse is his all the way, and it looks to me like a Taurus ran into a Sonata, and then backed up into a Grand Prix. THIS is what's supposed to be a Lexus competitor?
I give him credit for at least trying.
The article (I didn't dream this up, so don't chastise me) clearly states that GM is still big in the midwest, and I do get the idea that a large number of GM-diehards in here and in other discussions are located there or near there.
I am furious with GM at the moment, for the simple reason, that with the Malib, they took away some stuff I liked (like legroom), gave me some stuff I could care less about (like remote start that would only increase GM revenues since I'd burn out an A/C compressor every other week, since you'd have it running full-tilt with the windows up, XM radio (which is great for areas away from big cities), and on and on. Then they jack up the price by $4,000, scale back rebates (when they do increase rebates, up goes the sticker accordingly), and now I find out that because my-gen Malibu was so trouble-prone, that the price of an extended warranty has more than doubled since I bought my car.
Ford is playing some similar games.
I don't understand how the US auto industry will EVER survive with these kind of shenanigans.
GM is overloaded with huge pension costs, and their labor contracts are way too high. And I should pay for that?
Maybe those of you in the midwest might stick around, but the left and right coasts are being driven away even more. Heck, a Hyundai is even on my short list this go 'round. In 25+ years of driving, I've never had an import and only one non-GM product (a Mercury), but this kind of attitute fom Detroit is making it look like I'll be switching to Japan or Korea and never returning. And I'm sure there are thousands out there that feel like I do.
theo : Car looks pretty good. It's not my thing (neither is a Lexus), but I can see older crowd buying in. The interior looks we will have to wait on I guess.
Sure, it looks like alot of other cars, yet I don't think in a bad way. Side shot of front end looks kind of low and Elantra-ish, but I'll give it good stare in person four days from now, and hopefully get a better impression! Go Buick. The Spirit of American Style.
p.s. that's me: the "older crowd"!! But seriously, I want a new GTO!
Well, now it's for sure that the car will appeal to current Century owners. Does that look like a $33,000 vehicle to you? Not to me. The roofline came right off the GP. "Older folks" in FL and AZ buy a fair amount of American iron (but Century owners that paid $20K or less won't go for $33K), but they also buy a ton of stuff from Japan, Inc. The LaCrosse won't get them back.
dindak, my post said that the new Malibu has LESS legroom than mine. And the other thing they took away was fairly nice looks.
johncline, kindly stop talking about "the guy in the GP forum...". Yes, that was me but I thought the LaC would look like the spy shots of '01, not this "thing". So, go pay $35K (estimated) for an AWD non-descript looking 500, and after its 8th recall, don't start wondering whether you should have paid $30K for another Impala LS (pre-rebates) instead. Both are priced in the laughable range.
IMO, the answer for Detroit is to introduce better-styled vehicles with immaculate quality (guess the overpaid workers will actually have to work) and more features than the competition, WITHOUT RAISING PRICES (to try to get Buicks on a pricing level with Lexuses, for example). They can ditch the rebates under this scenario, as long as prices don't skyrocket with new models. Owner loyalty incentives would help as well. Lutz is doing some of this, but the price hikes are ridiculous. A huge jump in price, with no guarantee of reliability. This tact will fail until GM gets its quality reputation back first.
Meanwhile a lower-priced, similarly-equipped, more reliable (at least they'll be more reliable in short order) Hyundai or Kia will steal buyers from GM, Ford and to a certain extent, DC. And bye-bye goes Detroit.
P.S. Ford's touting of the GT during the SB Pre-game show was also laughable. Really laughable.
New Bu has more leg room so far as I can see and it's a better car in every way than the old. Looks are subjective.
I know so many of my friends etc. in the midwest here that are diehard GM fans. They buy em because its all their families ever bought. they won't even test drive anything else, even if it appeals to them. Its like they committed a sin and have to see a priest if they look at anything besides a GM!
I loved it the one time my friend rented a Passat (it was the previous boxy version) and he commented on how sporty it felt and how tight and well it handled. I asked him if he would ever buy one and he said, "no way!". Only because of his undying allegiance to the general.
Is this bad? Not necessarily. But when it puts blinders on you to what is really going on with the competition, the loyalty has gotten in the way.
so I won't get into it much more but folks seem to be vastly divided on GM. Folks either despise them, or think its greater than winning the lottery. A few ride the fence and hope GM can turn its ship around before its too late (I am one of those).
In the midwest there is a much greater percentage of those who unrelentingly buy anything with a GM badge on it, than there is in more urban centered areas.
As far as those pictures just posted of this new Taurus.....oops, LaCrosse.........
Pleasant enough. The comment about the overhangs giving away the age of the platform is true. This is an ok looking car but does not reflect modern design trends of bigger wheels, shorter overhangs, taller cabins.
The interior had better come up big here. This car could be a mild surprise in the market if
-the price is kept low....
-the interior is high quality and a nice design
- and they make plenty of the new engines available for build right away and get a buzz in the market going ASAP about the new refined powertrain.
And whoever said this car needs to be designed to attract young people is also way off base. Toyota and Lexus have "older" customers and they are very successful. Most older people have higher income and those are the ones Buick wants. They arent competing with Scion or Mitsubishi.
is that post activity is high with each press release and auto show.
Activity builds right before the car is introduced. Stays high for a few months or so then falls off precipitously.
There are some vehicles that transcend that but I can guarantee you this will not be one of them.
It is not polarizing enough.
The CTS thread had a lot of the same arguments that we have now.
But it's styling was much more polarizing than this car.
The CTS is now selling at at rate 2 times what Cadillac thought it would.
But there have been no posts in 2 days.
The Impala now sells 267,000 cars a year but sometimes there are no posts for days also.
I predict that the Lacrosse will fall by the wayside also.
It will sell better than the Regal, but it will
not sell like the Century and Regal used to together.
Which was close to 200,000 cars a year at one point.
Frankly I fear for Buick's existence.
And think maybe it should have been killed off before Oldsmobile.
The Lacrosse has some good angles but it should be more expensive looking.
1487,
Nothing wrong with sharing the GP roof panel. The Impala shares it's panel with last generation GP.
The regal, Century and Intrigue shared the same roof panel also.
But they all had different greenhouses.
The new Malibu has less legroom than the old one, in reality. GM is playing measurement games by printing 0.5" greater legroom in the back (they claim the same in front). Hyundai claims 2" less legroom in the back of a Sonata, but when I sat in one I could fit much more easily (with both front seats all the way back) than I could in the Bu.
The LaCrosse will be priced way too high, despite possible content increases. And then will probably depreciate like a brick in a lake once mediocre crash-test results come in. Look at the GP. And $2500 rebates already to move it.
Speaking of rebates, the 3/04 issue of MT reports that the Impala was the single largest percentage sales gainer for cars in MY '03 (40%). GM raised incentives to as high as $4,000 during the year. So the car was initially priced $4,000 too high.
I'm certainly not anti-GM, but I fear that it's losing it's way. And with low-cost producers like Hyundai rapidly gaining in saavy, quality and market share, there's not a moment to waste. It might be too late already.
Ford is amiss also right now. Spending all that money on the GT, and now fussing relentlessly over model names (all Fords must begin with an "F", Mustang excepted, and all Mercury's must begin with an "M"). I should think more important things to worry about.
Impala has had a 1K price increase every year.
For comparison Lexus LS 430 had a $500 increase from '02-'03.
Since 9/11 GM has increased pricing on all of it's vehicles greatly. Even Oldsmobiles.
Would you pay $31.5K for an Impala SS?
I can go buy one for $25K right now.
GM has opened up a can of worms with this rebate/price increase thing.
It is not good at all.
Gm made money last year because of GMAC.
Their car offerings are noncompetitve.
Their SUVs are growing long in the tooth, and
the big profits that they once saw in them are going away.
1487....no need to get your feathers in a bunch. Clearly you see no importance in giving cars content that is competitive with the other cars currently on the market. And clearly you see no purpose in Buick trying to get a younger customer base.
you are basically wrong, but if that's what works for you, fine by me. this whole site is about opinions. Buick's sales are dropping....what does that mean?
Do you NOT see any value in trying to match the features of other competing vehicles in this expensive segment of the market?
Car looks nothing like a Taurus. You can find similarities between almost any 2 sedans.
How do you know the car is lacking in interior room already? Did you get a sneak peak before the press?
OY!
That being said, I think the success (or failure) of this car will depend more on pricing than anything else. This is by no means a "GOTTA HAVE" product that Lutz claims he shoots for.
Chevy dude, "The LaCrosse is priced way too high" Compared to what my man? Just about every midsized car will touch close to $30k maxxed out with all the options. Have you ever priced an Avalon? If you haven't, you should and come talk to me in the morning.
It still kills me how certain people are critical of the LaCrosse styling when products like the Camry, Accord, ES330, Avalon, Maxima, etc exist. The Cam/Acc are some of the most boring uninspired cars on the road, and have been so for decades. The ES330 (since some of you seem to think is a competitor) has to be in the top 5 ugliest vehicles on the road (talk about your long overhangs) and the Maxima looks like someone just went wild in afterschool detention. Once again, GM always catches the flak. I'm just glad GM hasn't adopted the short wheelbase, SUV high roof look in it's cars.
Some of you seem to forget that selling cars is about making money, not making us happy.
The '04 does NOT have less rear legroom. I put a tape measure to it and repeatedly sat in both. The '04 is roomier-hiproom, too.
chavis10: Yes, the Avalon is priced in the low to mid $30s. But it's also excellent in the reliability area, whereas, judging by GMs past record of getting it right just as a model is about to be put out to pasture, you can probably expect only average reliability on the LC, and a depreciation picture MUCH gloomier.
GM is in the biz of making money and not pleasing people, huh? Well, they'd better get a new attitude and do both.
rwisem: Nice pic. Of course it had to show off the only shot of the new Bu that's attractive.
I seem to recall that you lease, so this is a moot point for you, but for those that want to pay $5,000 more year-over-year for a loaded Malibu sedan (after discounts/rebates), fine with me. Just don't start whining when trade-in time nears.
Bottom line on the rear legroom issue is that the '04 Bu is shorter and rides on a shorter wheelbase. Regardless of what the tape measure says, I can't fit in the back seat of it when the driver's seat is all the way back (could be the hard plastic now on the seatback) and I can in mine, which has nice soft vinyl.
The LC is a rehash of a platform that's been around since MY '97 and is not competitive. Nor is it worth the price that will be charged.
MT, in its March issue comments that Ford will have a major hit on its hands IF the 500 is priced competitvely (of course, they fail to state what competitvely is). Was worth a good laugh.
In their "Department of Corrections", they, for the second time, have commented now on how great a bargain the new Malibu is (I'm not getting into how blurred their vision was in this forum; 'tis been hashed to death in the Malibu forum). Can't wait to see the irate letters they print about the original assertion next month.
rwisem : Wow, you must like your Malibus. The new one is growing on me looks wise. My test drive proved to me it's a nice driver!
Back to the LaCrosse:
I'm having much doubt that the new LaCrosse will lure buyers away from Lexus. The Rendezvous has subjective looks and not-as-good-as-Lexus crash tests scored. Same goes for the Rainier, except that it looks REALLY GOOD. But, with a car like the LaCrosse, Buick can trash its dreams of appealing to younger buyers in their 30s-40s.
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Their current customer base is almost all dead and gone. At some point you need to go from the 65+ crowd down to at least 40. Those folks are spending wads of cash on family sedans with a 'comfort/luxury' bent and they ain't buyin enough Buicks.
For Buick, they don't need to abondon the 65+ market as much as they need to expand it. Certainly they can make Buicks that appeal to the blue hairs as well as those younger who want a quiet comfortable cruiser sedan. Thing is the current Buick products don't do it. this LaCrosse might get a few younger buyers. But I am suggesting that unless the price is attractive and the interior is a smash the looks alone may not be enough to do it. Having a real engine underhood (3.6) available certainly will help with the younger buyers accustomed to the excellence of the other competing products.
By competing products, I mean cars NOT produced by GM, BTW.
rctennis3811 : You have to admit, there is a lot of speculation as opposed to fact which is non-existent so far.
Reliability: Having bulletproof reliability (or at least the reputation for such) definitely allows you to price higher. People will pay extra for the expectation of fewer repairs and higher residuals. Yup, the Civic may be way overpriced (as is the Jetta, Passat, etc.), but guess what? People are willing to pay without incentives on the hood...
Age: I look at my parents. They're in their mid-fifties and are the perfect target audience for Buick. They've bought domestic and import over the years and have the money to afford a 30K car. And guess what? Buick isn't even on their radar screen. It is, along with Lincoln and the soon to depart Oldsmobile, "my parents or uncles" car. Their parents and uncles are in their 70's to 90's. This is why Buick is in trouble and why they need to expand their ownership range.
I know styling is subjective, but I don't think the LaCrosse will be enough to get the attention of people like my parents who aren't "into" cars. But guess what? They've seen articles in the newspaper about the new 300C, and it's caught their attention because it's "distinctive" and they are going to take a test drive when it's available. Think the LaCrosse will similarly do that with import buyers?
I don't think it's badly styled, and it'll be a quite good and competitive car I'm sure. I'm just not sure it's *enough*.
Bret
I can agree with that. Keep in mind that's a generation raised on import culture.
"People much under that generally can't generally afford a $30K+ car."
I dunno what its like where you are, but where I drive around there is plenty of 20 and 30 somethings driving around in 30+ cars. And none of them are domestics.........
its so frustrating to want to buy a 'domestic' badly, but not being able to justify doing it because there is nothing as appealing or as well built in so many market segments. But that's a whole nother issue.
bretaa : I dunno, does a Lexus look much better than this Buick? Really in this class, looks seem secondary to comfort, refinement and luxury. I personally don't care for any of them in terms of looks but the older crowd seems to like these kind of cars.
To dindak: Oh, I certainly agree with your Lexus comment. I think the LaCrosse is much better looking than the horrid ES330 and also better than the Mercedes C-Class and Passat.
But my point is that Buick has to get people's *attention* first. They don't have the built-in reputation, prestige, or reliability *reputation* (even if in surveys they are better) of those other brands. As long as their "father's" Park Avenue (a name that needs to go) with horrid fake portholes and fake wood is sitting there on the lot with "rental car" Centurys, my parents are never stepping foot in the dealer. I'll admit 100% that it's a shallow, materialistic self image thing, but, guess what... It's real. They need to deal with it and break out of the mold. If I were interested in the LaCrosse-type of car, I'd probably buy it because I'm into cars and know "the score," but my parents never would. I agree with Lutz. Buick needs to be an American Jaguar or Lexus, and the LaCrosse is a decent first step. Hopefully, in 10-15 years and with much shortened model lives, they'll be there.
Also, there are lots of 20 and 30 somethings around here (Minnesota) with 30K+ cars as well. I'm 29 and, if not for a decision to do some additional professional training for the next 3 years, my 26K CPO '01 BMW would have been a new 36K one.
Regfootball: Right on as usual. You're especially correct that the "old folks" in their 50's and early 60's were raised on VW's, Toyotas, Nissans, and the like. They also now own those same brands or Lexi, Audi, BMW, etc. My father's first car was a VW bug, my mother's a Toyota Corona. I think the first car they bought new from a dealership and new used was an '84 Nissan Stanza. The "old folks" are no longer domestic slam dunks.
- Bret
Once again I see people are still stuck in the 80s when it comes to GM's quality. If any of you take the time to consult publications other than Consumer reports you will find that GM's quality is better than the other Domestics and some imports. And I'm not talking about initial quality. Even in long term (5 year) studies done by JD Power Buick scores near the top. I believe Buick and Cadillac are in the top 5 or 6. Check the website. Buick has a reputation for serving seniors, but it does not have a bad rep in terms of quality.
As for incentives, what does that have to do with the Lacrosse? People are predicting incentives before the car hits the street. As for the imports not offering incentives, that is complete BS. Do you people ever check the Sunday papers? The american companies discount their cars on the national level, but the imports let their dealers do the dirty work. I have a friend who just leased a TSX (a highly regarded car) and got Nav and 3000 extra miles/year thrown in for free. That has to be worth at least $3000. In the paper I see toyotas advertised for $3000+ off MSRP. They couldn't compete otherwise. There is a difference between reality and the reality peddled by the automotive press. It is obvious that many of the opinions here come straight from CR and Car & driver. Please join me in the real world where most non-luxury cars are discounted.
a lot of people are concerned (well so they say) about the lacrosse not having the type of styling to attract import owners. First of all I don't think the primary buyers of this car will own an import. Secondly, anyone who owns a Japanese car isn't really into styling anyway. Cars like the camry and accord sell because of their reputation, ergonomics and nice interiors. Import buyers are not concerned with sexy styling. That said, the Lacrosse looks better than any Japanese midsize sedan except the altima.
If I can buy a Dodge Magnum with a Hemi for under 30K, the Lacrosse might get a test drive from me, but I am doubtful I would seriously consider it.
It's probably because Lutz said that the LaCrosse will lure buyers away from Lexus. So that's why some are comparing it to as of why someone would move away from Lexus to a LaCrosse.
Wow, you think the LaCrosse styling is better than a Mazda 6 too!?! Whew, now I've heard everything!!