2005 Passat
regfootball
Member Posts: 2,166
http://www.automobear.com/Proud%202005%20Passat%20will%20retake%2- 0its%20visual%20throne.html
looks like a worthy successor.
what cha'all think?
looks like a worthy successor.
what cha'all think?
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Comments
BTW -- I really like the new designs!
What is it with VW lately? They had a great thing going recently with the "trendy alternative to a Toyota" image, and suddenly they seem to want to compete with their own Audi brand! I don't get it.
-Andrew L
M
But -- we don't know if VW is going to push the 2005 Passat price up (i only assume so). The car looks awesome, in my opinion of course.
Don't know about the in-dash 6-disc changer.
VW and Audi begin the process of "ceasing" to be fraternal twins first by making the platforms no longer shared or as shared as they are now.
VW and Audi begin the process of no longer having virtually the same engines (if not literally the same engines) as choices (e.g., 1.8T, 3.2, 2.8, 4.2). That is the engines will go their own way more and more, just as the body and chassis directions will diverge
While family resemblences and even some apparent cross over (Phaeton and A8, e.g.) will remain, the plan will call for divergence.
Audi will continue to be "dynamic" -- whatever the Marketing Machine says
VW will morph into the "classic" or perhaps more traditional luxury image
Both marquis will move up across the board in MSRP (perhaps more discernable in the US market).
Passats in the $30K range -- sure, but more likely in the $40K range instead (check out the plans for the new Passat -- 300HP, 4 motion, bells and whistles, etc.)
Audi will market against BMW (and others to be sure)
VW will market agains Mercedes (and others, yadda yadda yadda)
Audi will offer some far out high high high buck stuff
VW will offer some not so far out not so high (but above $70K) stuff
They will appeal to different "self-images" -- even if there is competition between them (between VW and Audi that is).
Some people can't or won't for a long time see themselves in a Phaeton, only an A8 will do -- even if the Audi costs more or the content and relative amenities of the Phaeton are higher than the Audi's.
Audi will sponsor and advertise and go to market this way and VW will sponsor and advertise and go to market that way.
VW will not be just getting Audi's "hand me downs" -- the Passat will not be strapped with an Audi engine from the previous generation (where is the 3.0 Passat? In the "old" way, the Passat would eventually get Audi's 3.0 just as it inherited the 5 pot Audi engine, the V6 Audi engine and shares to this day the 1.8T Audi engine.)
New VW's will be as distinct as PO$$IBLE and will be marketed to be even more distinct than they actually will be.
Passats, for example, will be price competitive with C class and perhaps even low end E class Mercs. Phaetons with W12's will go head to head with Merc's S classes (both in content and tickling their price point).
The summary that says it most succinctly:
VW will be 90 - 95% of a comparable Mercedes offering at 80 - 85% of the Merc's price point. Hence an $85,000 VW is not too many years off in the future.
Now all of this is not meant to suggest that VW will not produce low end Passats (for consumption somewhere in the world) -- but, it is to suggest that these low end, lower priced versions will probably NOT make it to our shores.
I have been to Germany to the Audi factory (6 times) and have visited German cities both large and small and have visited Audi and VW dealerships in Munich and Berlin -- the range of "low end" Audis that are available is incredible. And, we never see them here.
I have rented a completely stripped Audi A6 1.8T. I have been in Audi A4 taxis that, other than A/C are the equivalents of Neon's -- yet we never see them here.
This is what I expect will happen with VW -- fewer and fewer low end models will make it to the US. We will see, relatively speaking, high end models of whatever makes it here.
Power everything, every do dad made will be part of the standard model or will be included in one all encompassing "Premium Package" -- like we are already seeing in the Passat W8 and the Touareg. Wait till you see the first generation Phaeton we get -- and then remember it (features and options) will only increase from that point forward.
The current generation of VW's compete in some respects in the economy market. VW says, "hmmm economy market -- lower margins, price sensitive customers; hmmm Classic Luxury market -- higher margins, customers that have the willingness to pay for more [and expect more, VW]. . ." Their decision was relatively easy.
VW may or may not succeed in "movin' on up to a dee-lux apartment in the sky [the Jefferson's]" -- but I'm willing to wager here and now that by this time two years from now the VW (US for certain) product offerings will be already be well headed in that direction.
If you want a "cheap" Passat (as in under $30K) you better get while the gettin's good.
VW wants Mercedes to look in their rear-view mirror and see a VW closing in on them -- and gaining fast.
Again, this Hyde and Jekyll may or may not be able to be pulled off, but don't count on it not at least being attempted in earnest.
-Andrew L
However, VW does have to clean up their act in terms of reliability, and they know that. Same goes for AUDI. In Europe, there are so many brands with reliability problems that VW/Audi still manages to look decent.
W8’s and Phaetons have been a flop, and Touaregs will need to be sold at such a discount that the upscale premium vanishes sooner than you can say Nissan re-design.
The politics of the European car market does not translate well into the NA market - so here, we get whatever a least common denominator allows. Believe me, the US is and has been an afterthought for VW strategy planning and product development. All the forces that drive market differentiation in Europe are very different from those in the US. BTW, Subaru of America suffers from the same disease of not having competent marketing specialists on site, and not being flexible enough to integrate a consensus vision into their domestic pipeline.
The good news? Diesel engines and hopefully improved low-end Golfs, Jettas and Passats @ 2005.
The bad news? Still no AWD Jetta Wagon with raised suspension [THINK: FORESTER XT], RS32 too little too late, no turbo Passat manual AWD (wagon), Audi always 2-3 years behind in offerings (if an Accord V6 beats you in important categories, you have a problem).
The ugly news? Water pumps used to fail @ 100,000 miles in Hondas in the mid 90’s. So did a lot of other stuff. So they increased their reliability and maintenance intervals to yet longer times. VW/Audi is still stuck pre-mid-nineties, with component failures lagging the top Japanese manufacturers by about 10 years. Not only have they not closed the gap, the gap has increased from 3-5 years to about 10 years. The next 3 years will witness whether VW/Audi (and Mercedes) can turn this thing around.
- D.
Very few, and I mean very few people if any at all (!) are going to pay 90K for a VW, no matter how many cylinders (W12) or how much hp it has. VW should start with a the Polo and go up to about 55K with a much-needed improved dealer body and a whole new approach to customer service/sales etc. Does VW really think nobody ever cross shops a VW with an Audi, or that people won't do just that in the future considering the prices VW wants to command with their next generation of cars, and the current Phaeton?
I have to admit it's a novel idea, but logically it doesn't make sense. VW essentially wants to have it's cake and eat it too, by having TWO high-priced brands. It won't happen, at least not with any success. I wonder what VW would do if their strategy took off and was a hit, but Audi sales dropped like 50 percent during the process?
M
The spirited discussion (argument?) perhaps is can VW make it to the top? I am unwilling -- YET -- to count them out. Changing dealer's behavior may not be too daunting of a task. There are plenty of dealers (who currently don't rep VW's) who would love to have the VW brand and would know how to treat customers.
The problems that we see and read about on these internet chat (gossip?) boards are almost certainly 100% true. They are certainly 100% inadequate. OK, perhaps VW and Audi too are not as reliable as other brands -- perhaps there are some nightmarish stories. I believe that people who are "satisfied" through "delighted" don't spend much time extolling the vitues of their dealers and brands. And, without a scientific statistical review it is hard for me to come away with any sense that the overwhelming majority of posters here, on Audi world and VW vortex are anything but delighted. The number of complaints appears to be in the minority, that is.
Most people who participate in these forums love cars and many love BRAND NAME HERE cars. Audi and VW have many more fans (based on the forums I read and participate in) by far than foes.
I welcome VW to the upper class -- my current personal skepticism is still there, however.
The Touareg seems pretty spanky, both Car and Driver and Motor Trend (and a few others) either rave or at the very least highly praise this entry by VW into the upper class of SUV's. While the Wall Street Journal (and other 'automotive' publications) have reported initial quality control (roll out) problems (with the Phaeton) in Europe there is no certainty that we will or will not repeat this once the car lands here in the US.
And, although I did mention that there may be an $85K Phaeton here in the US, I have not -- yet -- read of any $90K VW comming. And, I have every reason to believe that there will be Phaetons that are sold with a number beginning with a "5."
The W8 has been treated, based on anecdotes written by all of us and VWGUILD as an orphan -- I have seen only 2 W8 commercials and only 1 of them is currently in play (the man racing the kid on the bike). But, I have NEVER seen an allroad commercial and everyone who has ever seen or been in my car wonders why they've never heard of it.
Perhaps the US market isn't important to VW and Audi -- but I doubt that is the case. Indeed, despite what appears to be illogical marketing behavior (or lack thereof) of these brands, I think that the US is "THE MOST" important market of all to them -- but I am only mildly suggesting that is the case financially.
The US car market is like the song "New York, New York" -- car companies reputations often rely on the fact that "if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. . ." Witness Peugot, Fiat. . .etc.
Sales of both VW's and Audis are -- according to their own press releases -- down (single digit %, I believe) in 2003. But the past month or two have been strong from a sales perspective.
According to my dealer every $82,000+ RS6 has already been spoken for. Yet, the S6 avant -- itself a very sweet car and a relative bargain when compared to the RS6 -- often sits unsold on the lot or is sold quickly with a substantial discount.
For "new" for "sexy" for "exclusive" for "perfomance" even for "value" -- there really is [probably] room at the top!
I say go VW go!
I'm sure VW can sell a few Phaetons and W8 Passats, and maybe a decent number of Touaregs. But to actually abandon the lower end of the market, where VW has established a decent reputation with young, trendy buyers, would be the stupidest thing they could possibly do. It's about on par with Hyundai dropping the Accent, Elantra and Sonata, and deciding to compete with Mercedes! Not only would they be starting from scratch in the luxury market, but they would be using a brand name that already has a lower priced image associated with it. That's two strikes against, as I see it.
By the way, to remain on the 2005 Passat topic: If the Passat moves upmarket for 2005, say starting at $28K rather than the low $20Ks as it does now, what is going to fill the gap? $20-25K is the sweet spot for the family sedan market. Is the Jetta suddenly going to take a leap for 2005? Then what will fill THAT gap? Something is not quite right, here.
-Andrew L
The cars that have perhaps been the VW mainstay, for example the Golf are certainly not just going to go away -- my understanding is that the content of the VW family will, like Audi, Mercedes and BMW in the US, be more complete, more lux-like. Indeed, isn't BMW (and Mercedes already) pushing down somewhat with some of the newer models.
Perhaps the least expensive future VW will be more than the least expensive current VW. All of the articles I have read indicate VW intends to compete with Mercedes "head on."
And, I still maintain that "there is room at the top." Now, perhaps VW will take sales away from Audi -- but perhaps VW WILL take sales away from Mercedes, Volvo, Saab, Jaguar -- and who knows what other brand.
I doubt that Audi buyers will migrate in droves to VW. Presumably the VW "image" will appeal to Classic buyers (whatever in the heck that means) who today are said to be most like Mercedes buyers.
I kind of see the Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick , Cadillac thing going on here. There are Pontiacs (and you can start to see it more with the newest Pontiacs) for example that are pretty much (technically) similar to Buicks -- but the image of the brands, the appeal of the brands, the demographics of the 2 brands customers mean that some folks will consider Pontiacs and some Buicks (even if the prices are not the deciding factor).
Now, at the ripe old age of 52, I can say that I have never even considered a Cadillac -- but I must admit, I now have brand awareness of the CTS due to the "Led Zeppelin" campaign.
Perhaps an AWD, stick shift, small-block V8 CTS would make me test drive one. . .
I have considered, but never followed through, the Jaguar all wheel drive offerings and the Volvo AWD models.
VW MAY be able to pull this image transformation off. . . Audi came back from the brink with "marketing," and other companies have shifted their images both within price class and outside of price class.
Classic example is Sony -- still considered by many has "upmarket" TV -- can be found at Walmart, Costco and Circuit city beside similarly priced competitive TV's yet the Sony Image has stuck.
Before you beat up on me, I will again say I agree with many of the reservations that have been expressed on this forum about VW's move up. But saying it is doomed to failure is a distance too far for me to agree with.
Many people look at a Passat -- for example -- as the Sony TV when it is placed (and shopped) by cars that are "in its class." The VW Name, to this day, remains mostly in good stead.
This is the company that brought the "Bug" to the US and has ultimately morphed itself into a company that few could have ever imagined when the only two cars you could acquire from a VW dealer included the Bug (and a convert version) and the Karmann Ghia.
I'm willing to watch the years commencing with the 2004 calendar year for about 2 - 3 years to see if they can pull a "rabbit" out of their hat (pun intended).
One last thought -- marketing will begin to morph the image as I have outlined; but ultimately PRODUCT will sustain the buying public's perception. I do not think they can show you a picture of a juicy steak and when you get home find out it is hamburger and expect repeat buyers or the word NOT to get out.
I won't comment on first year stuff -- although I am sure others will chime in on first year experiences.
I don't know what the deals are right now, but I would certainly consider a brand new Passat as potentially a bargain (4motion).
Perhaps our friend Peter (aka VWGUILD) will educate us: I would think that a W8 would be a major major bargain -- no one has heard of it (VWoA "forgot" to market it -- damn I hate when that happens).
Moreover, a Passat W8 6spd with sport package and the cool wing on the butt that I have seen on a couple here in Cincinnapolis would be so sweeeet.
BTW would you please use the spell checker -- the meaning is lost somewhat with the e-mail short hand. No offense -- and thanks!
The Passat will not be based on the Phaeton, which I believe is the A8 platform, and will not be based on the A6 platform, which it currently is. The new A6 will incorporate the Audi Space Frame design, which would not be cost effect in the lower priced Passat.
I believe that the new Passat will be based on the Jetta/Golf platform (which was just introduced), though it does have styling cues from the Phaeton.
Though I do think the current design is one of the best looking cars out there; even better than most new ones. I would be more interested in drive train and content changes in the new model.
I was told that there is at least one of this configuration in Cincinati. Not a small town and we have many VW dealers. You see where this is going?
If you want a new VW -- new as in 2005 -- well you are theoretically correct, they should be technically capable of being in the US in Aug 04.
I read that the W8 is not going to be carrier into the next gen Passat, but that a 3.2 turbo with even more HP and torque will be -- sometime -- made available (presumably in the US market).
If I HAD to buy or couldn't wait or wouldn't wait for the 05, I would sure try my darndest to get an 04 W8 with 6spd and sport package and On*star and if they actually offer sat nav and rear seat airbags and perhaps a VW integrated with On*star "factory" phone -- well I'd get that too.
You would have a GREAT car, NOT a new first generation car (which one could argue may not be the ideal time to get one). You would have a very powerful car -- you would have a great warranty and the way these cars just seem to languish on the dealer's lots, you'd probably get a pretty good deal. VW seems intent on keeping the W8 a secret which ought to translate into good deals.
Today, for the money, one could get an Audi A4 3.0 with 220HP and the "Ultra sport package" -- or the W8 with 270HP and that 8 cylinder sound. If you like VW's, like Passats and want a high performance car that is a relative bargain -- get a VW Pass W8 6spd sport package version model year 04 and get that subtle, cool looking VW rear deck lid spoiler -- uh, make mine silver.
We may debate the possible success of such a move, but over the next 36 months just watch what comes to VW dealers -- W8 Passat, Touareg, Phaeton, Golf with the all wheel drive and 3.2 V6, new Passat and perhaps an "in-between" Passat/Phaeton model.
There will be a lot more VW's north of $30K, $40K and even $60K than there are today by 2005 (MY 2006) based on what has been "boasted" by VW execs in speeches, papers and magazine articles.
Time will tell if they can play.
Sales of both VW's upmarket Passat W8, which sells for about $40,000 in the United States, and the $70,000 Phaeton, introduced last year, have been disappointing.
Volkswagen had planned to sell 10,000 units of its W8-powered Passat annually, but managed just over 5,000 in 2002.
VW sold 2,128 Phaetons during the first six months of 2003.VW once expected to sell 7,000 units of the luxury sedan during 2003, the car's first full year on the market.
The Phaeton debuted in spring 2002 in Europe and will go on sale in the United States this year.
Says Couchman: "Maybe such a premium model (the C1) will eventually succeed the Phaeton, which VW may let die slowly."
Based on their predictions, then, I would say that selling 5,000 is NOT BAD -- unless they really believed that from the get go and without much of a campaign and apparently NO STRATEGY whatsoever, they could sell 10,000.
Making the W8 a "destination" (a reason to go to a VW dealer) never happened -- although some dealers did showcase the W8 with wheels and ground effects and a prominent place on the showroom floor. But of the three VW dealerships that I personally have visited, only one did this and only one time.
The sales manager told me that that particular W8 went out the door practially before the engine block had a chance to cool.
Now, makes you wonder why not repeat this "local" promotion? The "nicest" VW dealer in greater Cincinnati has plenty of inventory and several W8's and W8 "wagons." But they are buried in with all the other Passats and there is nothing that is done to differentiate them from the regular Passats.
This is both good and bad -- good in that it may actually get people who are wandering around the lot looking at window stickers to have some awareness of the the W8 -- bad in that there is no way to differentiate this model from the others except for about a $9,000 premium -- which, again, without differentiation may make some prospective customers "run away."
We have debated here and on the Audi town hall the potential for customers to cross shop a $38K - $40K Passat with an A4 (realizing that the Passat may be considered to be a bargain by some and overpriced by others).
An A4 3.0 quattro can be compared with a W8 Passat. They can be somewhat similarly outfitted -- although the Audi gets the nod on several of the options that it can have that the VW cannot (yet).
I always figured there would be a grand marketing campaign fueled and fed by advertising that would differentiate the Passat W8 from other Passats and from potential competition.
I therefore am both pleasantly pleased and surprised that 5000 W8 Passats drove off the lots.
It coulda been a hell of a lot better sure, but it is remarkable that that many were sold!
Also, much as I WANT to agree that the W8 needs to cost less and have more connected advertising (or any at all other than the man racing the boy) -- na baby na. . . The Passat will just keep costing more and more each and every year starting about one year from , wait a minute. . .NOW!
Get the dealer's the "memo" (in the US at least) and this may work -- else I think it will fail.
When I caught my first look of the 2005 Passat, which was in Automobile Mag Sept 2002, I gasped. It looked so classy, even better than the frowning current Passat. The headlights could do some more smiling, but besides that, I love the car. The only thing I am concerned about is if the Passat might turn into a more upscale luxury car. The only way I'll accept it is IF VW will change the Jetta to a midsize to not only make it look spacious.
1. VW will compete with Mercedes (Audi w/BMW)
2. VW will commencing this year begin the march up market and up price (witness: W8 Passat; Touareg; Phaeton -- going up)
3. VW believes and touts that it will offer Mercedes content @ about 80 - 85% of the price (this means that there CAN be and probably will be, really high buck Phaetons -- can you say north of $70K for starters? -- although for sticker shock reasons I think we will see $60K Phaetons MSRP, that is)
4. The 2005 Passat looks like a mini-Phateon with some leftover Passat cues -- the content both in performance and luxury will increase (and so will the $$$$$.$$)
5. There's always room at the top.
6. There is great consternation and concern that VW -- and particularly its dealer body -- isn't up to this change.
7. The counter argument is "all in good time my pretty, all in good time. . ." (it will evolve, hopefully)
8. VW will not compete against Audi -- the only way this will happen is if the products become really distinct (they aren't now for sure).
Time will tell.
I really love the new artist's photoshop rendering of the 2005 Passat with the turbo 3.2L V6 and 4Motion and a few toys which will probably push the thing north of $40K in a New York second.
Thanks in advance...
Take my money, please. . .
The VW didn't force me to buy my first VW and couldn't convince me to buy a second one. Just good ride is not good enough any more.