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Comments
8.7"? Sure, bring it on, I like a higher ride. I think the following factors would help to level out the "tippyness" of the extra inch ride height: Wider stance, less complexity with the sunroof mechanism and thus less weight in the roof(by the looks of it), Engine supposedly sits slightly lower, and the larger wheels. I'm sure that the suspension has been re-worked to take care of any extra lean.
Would you take an SUV around a corner at speeds you can take the current Outback? Certainly not. I think Subaru has most likely taken into consideration that this is not an SUV, and that customers want performance, handling, and utility wrapped up into one.
I will be considering an upgrade providing the new model offers the McIntosh sound system and the NAV unit. No sense in taking a step backwards in with the audio system, especally when it appears to be so tightly integrated into the console that it would be hard to upgrade.
Legacy - H4, H4 twin-turbo
Outback - H4, H6
That's only what I've heard.
* 8.7" clearance
* Bigger tires with taller sidewalls
* towing harness is pre-wired
* fender flares
* H6 engine is exclusive
* PZEV emissions model in California (163hp)
* McIntosh Stereo (most likely)
* VDC
What else? Maybe HIDs? Maybe Nav? We'll find out in Chicago.
-juice
The turbo is a new model for a different target market.
-juice
Subaru is no different than any other car company in my mind. Their primary focus is to increase the wealth of the owners/stockholders. They will sell as many cars as they can (to all 6 billion people if they could !), and sell to the markets they have evolved into, and into those markets where there is opportunity (market demand).
Though Honda and Toyota are looked at as socially responsible, that is secondary to the primary focus of increasing profit and wealth for the owners. Note they are not missing out on the Pickup and SUV markets.
Look on the bright side though, if you think mpg is important. Maybe by calling the Outback a truck, some people will buy it instead of an SUV, which you may consider worse? ;-)
-juice
I spoke to the writer 15 minutes and that's all he quoted... my 15 seconds of fame...
Ralph
As for social consciousness, I see lots of socially conscious people in my town driving nasty old Volvos and VW vans that spout black smoke everywhere they go. *Shrugs*
I also don't view CAFE as having much to do with social consciousness anyway. IMHO CAFE is a large contributor to the current SUV madness we live in.
We really have to get that word out there that we are and continue to be concerned about the environment and we aren't going to change that course. I know that we've been very active with the development of a hybrid type of engine. I just wish we could do it sooner to get that information out there at the same time as this - as some of you have suggested.
We went through this before when we were classified as a MPV (multi-purpose vehicle) with 4WD when that was novel - and folks were upset about that. Then, along came all of the other manuf.
Juice - I agree with you about CAFE. Well, we'll see what road this leads us down now!
Patti
Patti,
Will the 2005 US market Outback look the same as the one introduced in other markets, or is it raised higher?? I'm dying to see the sedan - since it isn't marketed in any of the countries where the new design is out...
Ralph
I'm dying to see what our Outback looks like, I'm kind of excited about it actually. I like the idea of a lift and tinted windows, finally it'll be truly distinguished from the Legacy.
And if I like it I can get a PZEV 2.5l model. Though I'd have to drive from California!
-juice
Here's another view on the fuel economy move, from NRDC (Natural Resources Defense Council). Specifically, that the move is intended to flout federal standards (which DO invite this sort of gaming) and that it's a bad move from the standpoint of the company's carefully crafted image that has long targeted the outdoorsy set.
Headline is 'Go Truck Yourself'; link is here:
http://www.nrdc.org/media/pressreleases/040114a.asp
It may be the first time ever I agree with him.
-juice
http://www.subarulegacy.ca/
Very nice, it will have no competition!!!!!!
At first glance, the Legacy would seem to add comfort, style and power (and looks, subjective) to the WRX formula.
Is this a WRX for someone who would buy an Acura TL?
Zman
Bob
Next, the '05 Outback Sedan and Wagon, both to be classified as trucks, will follow in the summer (more or less). Among other modifications, these will get more road clearance--8.8 inches I think--and will be offered in 2.5 and 3.0 liter engines. There will be no turbo option, correct? The 2.5 will be available in basic and premium (MT and AT), but the 3.0 only in AT, for a total of 10 configurations (maybe more if there is an LL Bean and a VDC).
I am putting this all together in part from what I have gathered from this and other threads, supplemented by the Subaru Australia site. I know all the information is not out there completely, but how close am I?
Zman
I love how the new Legacy looks and it may be my next car.
Does anybody know if the US version of the Legacy GT will come with VDC? I think that this is a very important safety feature and should be available on all vehicles.
here's a link!!!!
http://subaru.com.au/explore/liberty/pricing.asp?item=23246
I would guestimate the price by taking the current GT and adding MAYBE as much as $1000 or $2000. No more, IMHO.
I think it's safe to say that you're comparing in the wrong conversion as these two are never the same converson dollar to dollar ratio.
Can someone tell me if the pictures with the trim represent the base model and the solid colors upper end models?
Thank you very much.
Jeff
wayhar - No. Nobody but Subaru of America knows the exact date the 2005 models will be for sale at the dealerships. Nor does anyone know what the price will be. However, considering the vehicle is like 80% new (meaning it's pretty much a COMPLETE redesign) I think a small price increase is not unreasonable.
nowakj66 - I think you've hit the nail on the head.
mattkpsu - What makes you think the H6 won't be available in the Legacy? Maybe not for the 2005 model year, but then again maybe so. I think you'd be surprised how much MORE low end grunt the 2.5 liter H4 Turbo will have than the H6. It should also have pretty comparable gas consumption if driven similarly.
aspringsteel - I believe it has been done, but you'd probably need to reinforce the engine internals as well. Check out www.nasioc.com for details. I'm sure someone who posts there has done this.
zman - H6 with MT? Not likely. Especially considering that Subaru doesn't offer the H6/MT combo in any other market. Of course, Subaru surprised everyone with the STi numbers and hardware so I guess it's possible.
As to the Outback coming with a Turbo. Again, I think only Subaru knows the answer to this. If you can wait a couple weeks (Chicago Auto Show) then we'll likely all know the answer.
I think you're guess at the complete line up is as close to any I've seen so far.
eugeny10 - Considering nobody but Subaru knows what they'll offer as options, it's all just speculation. However, considering the GT target is the performance oriented folks not so much the safety folks and the fact that Subaru will likely want to keep prices down, I don't see the GT coming with VDC. I'd probably pony up for it if they did.
yugoboy - I'd agree with zman3 and bigelm. You can't simply convert Australia dollars to U.S. dollars to compare pricing. I think Australia has some sort of tax that really skews their car prices as compared to ours. Any of the Australian crew members out there to confirm?
jguay2 - Considering the 2005 US model Outbacks have yet to be released I don't think anyone can answer your question. Look for the Edmunds coverage of the Chicago Auto Show for your answers as that is where Subaru will be debuting these models.
Disclaimer - No, I don't work for Subaru. No, I don't own a Subaru (yet). I have simply been researching the purchase of one for well over a year. I've been reading these Edmunds boards and others pretty religiously the whole time. This is what I base this information on.
Cheers!
-Ian
I think your responses are pretty much right on. I too have been researching all this and have pieced together some info. One guy I spoke with at a dealership today (a salesman who clearly knows his stuff and, more important, is passionate about cars in general, Subarus in particular) said the the H6 will likely not come in a MT (no surprise there), but he did mention that Subaru indicated informally that something is in the works for those prospective Outback customers who want the MT but find the conventional 2.5 a little weak (that's me and that's why I've been looking at a Forester XT--but maybe I'll wait)
And a big hi to ZMan3 (is there a Zman1 or a Zman2 out there?)
-Zman
I'll bet they put the new 5EAT with Sportshift in the Outback H6 versions. From what I've read this tranny sounds like it could be fun!
It has a sport mode that will keep it in auto mode but hold the shift points longer allowing the engine to rev higher. From sport mode you just need to tap a steering wheel button or push the shifter to get it to go into "manual" mode which will allow you to hit the rev limiter before shifting if you like. I think it will only downshift for you if you come to a stop. Very cool.
-Ian
Supposedly, Subaru doesn't think the H6 is fast enough for the Legacy. That's why the H6 is put in the Outback because of it's abundance of torque only a six-cylinder can provide.
rctennis3811,
Actually the Legacy GT has more low down torque than the new 3.0R H6 thanks to the turbo on the GT. The figures are:
3.0R H6 - 297nm @ 4200rpm
GT - 310nm @ 2400rpm.
I have driven both here in Oz and the GT gets off the line quicker because of the lower down torque, but the overall difference in speed is minimal.
0-100kmh (0-60mph) times are as follows:
3.0R H6 - 7.6secs
GT - 6.7secs
Goneskiian is correct when he says that you cannot do a direct dollar conversion to get the price for the US market from the Australian pricing. A number of factors are involved:
1) Australia has a 15% import duty and 10% GST
2) The US models of the Legacy and Outback are not imported but made in Indianna (am I correct?)
3) Individual spec levels maybe different
4) Car companies price their vehicles relative to the market in that country
Having said all that, the new models in the Subaru lineup in Australia only went up in price a few hundred dollars from the previous models. I would say that the US pricing will also only go up a few hundred as well.
I suspect it was rhetorical but.... I am guessing that there is a zman1 and zman2 somewhere. I registered years ago but I don't think I would have picked zman3 without trying and failing to get yours and the others.
The 5EAT does come in the new Outback 3.0R here in Oz and will be the same for the US.
Unfortunately the steering wheel controls for the 5EAT sportshift is only available in the Legacy GT not the Outback H6. I have driven both the GT and the Outback 3.0R (I have owned the new Outback 3.0R for 2 months now) and yes the steering wheel controls are fun but I don't miss it in the Outback.
The sportshift works in the following way:
1)Put the shifter in drive and it operates like a normal 5 speed auto.
2)Tap the shifter to the side and it goes into sport mode. This mode is still auto shifting but holds the gears longer when accelerating hard and will down shift more readily for overtaking.
3)Tap the shifter forward or backwards and you're now in manual auto where you select the gears. When slowing down to stop, the auto will will down shift automatically each gear. Say when you're at 15mph it will shift to 4th, then at 10 it will shift to 3rd etc.
In manual it will hold the gears right to the redline/cutout. I know as I've bounced it off the rev limiter a few times now at over 7,000rpm! The motor is smooth as silk right up to the cutout.
Zman
1) No turbo in Outback;
2) No MT in H6 Outback, but a sweet 5EAT with Sportshift in the H6 and steering wheel shift buttons in the premium ( LL Bean) trims;
3) Black trim at lowest edge of body in H6 Outback trims; cladding up on doors and fenders in 2.5NA trims, consistent with previous releases and SoA trend in Forester;
4) all OB trims and 2.5 NA Legacy on dealers' lots by May 1, maybe a litttle earlier; Legacy GT July 1...still tweaking the options and the tuning;
5) No H6 Legacy in 05, at least. There will be clear distinction between the offraod-capable Outback and the on-road performance of the Legacy, especially the turbo;
6) I think Bigelm will win the pricing prognostication. SoA has a lot of marketing strategy riding on bringing all trim levels of the Legacy sedan to market under $30K MSRP, another grand for the wagon. Outback will range all the way up to $35K and will include convenience options never seen in a Subaru before.
Write it down.
Mark
2.5 Outback i (cloth, 5-speed or 4EAT)
2.5 Outback i Limited (leather, 5-speed or 4EAT, moonroof)
3.0 Outback R (cloth, VTD, 5EAT)
3.0 Outback LL Bean (leather, VDC/VTD, 5EAT, moonroof, navigation)
Bob
But no, the new Legacy is actually NARROWER than the old (68.1 versus 68.6). What is going on here?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid98/pf5b1dea930029aefe04f- 9773488a83cf/fa03fd65.jpg
It's not a lot bigger than my 2002 Legacy, but it is more comfortable and head room is definitely improved over the previous sedan.
I doubt the H6 will get a MT. Outback will likely get a turbo, though, with both trannies. Baja already has that setup.
GT vs. WRX? Well, price will keep them apart. A base GT picks up where the WRX leaves off, and goes all the way up to near-STi price levels.
-juice
Nostradamus says no. ("1) No turbo in Outback;")
Juice says yes.("Outback will likely get a turbo, though, with both trannies.")
Stand by. I have a feeling that my decision to buy a Subaru likely depends on the outcome.
Zman
Legacy is not getting the H6, so the Outback will. Up to now, that has only come with an auto, so another auto is likely for that.
Having a turbo/auto would give the outback auto 3 engines and the MT just one! Not likely.
-juice
Still waiting for the Outback brochure... :-)
subah6...
As Subaru attempts to go after European nameplates - they even refer to the Leagcy as more European - has the handling of the Outback become tighter/crisper = more European (like VW, BMW, Audi, etc.)? That is my biggest wish for the 2005, and my biggest want for my 2001 LLBean..
Thanks,
Ralph
Mark
Mark