Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

evergreen

Hey guys, thanks for the input. Guess I will have to take the wife down and test drive them both. At least I now know what i should be looking for. Thanks again.

zman3

Maybe, but I am old fashioned enough to think that over 150K-200K miles the non turbo will be a better longevity/reliability choice.

alaskanwill

That's also a good point. Also, typically, smaller engines run longer. Overall that makes it tough to judge - probably a toss up.

kens

Perhaps. On one hand, the 2.5T block in the XT/GT is overengineered to handle STi level performance. On the other, the turbo adds more complexity.

Ken

zman3

Ken:

I don't know much about any of the designs, but when you say block, are you talking just the block or also the rods, pistons, etc. I'm hoping the latter, otherwise it doesn't mean much.

Karl

zman3

That's also a good point. Also, typically, smaller engines run longer.

Do you mean smaller runs faster? If not, I don't understand.

Karl

erics6

I've always found vehicles with timing chains cheaper to maintain. No replacement of the chain needed.

I would think the H6 is likely to last longer. I'm sure the turbo and major engine components will last, but I can speak from experience... the 93 turbo tranny was not up to the task for that car. Of course neither was the H6 in the SVX. I'm sure the new autos are better. It would be an interesting experiment to see the average life. My guess is the H4 non-turbo would have the longest life, then the H6 and finally the turbo.

saedave

I'll bet on the H6 for longer life. Its displacement PER CYLINDER is 500 cc vs 625 cc for either of the fours. Therefore per cylinder reciprocating mass is a little lower...including pistons and connecting rods. The better reinforced block in the turbo does not reduce the extra stress on rods and bearings, but perhaps they are different from those used in the normally aspirated engine. Does anyone know?

ateixeira

I bet all 3 engines outlast the rest of the car. They'll be retired when there is an A/C system failure or they are totalled in a crash. I bet the engines go 200k.

Looking at CR, gaskets haven't been an issue since 2002.

-juice

locke2c

None of the turbocharged engines ever were known for headgasket issues. Their hot button is definitely the TGV.

~Colin

saedave

juice,

You're probably right about the engines outlasting the rest of the car. Do you remember the light aircraft with Subaru engines of a few years ago? The only failures that I know of were ignition distributor rotors If I remember correctly.

I believe these were 2 liter or smaller engines, however.

Dave

garandman

I think that may just be a perception issue. I have test driven the XT but own a 3.0 wagon. I think it is just the fact that the XT is not at all linear that makes it feel weaker on the low end. It hits that certain rpm where is seems to become more ferocious, where the H6 is more linear in it's power delivery.

The torque curve on an H6 is almost flat from about 2200 rpms. the 2.5T starts to build torque around 2600 rpm and builds to a max value 15% or so higher.

An H6 dyno plot looks something like this:

kens

I mean the entire long block. The GT/XT/Forester XT and STi use the same long block. Lots of folks have verified this by checking the actual part numbers on the engines.

Here's Subaru's own 2006 description of the STi engine:

The 2.5-liter horizontally opposed (Boxer) 4-cylinder engine is based on a specially reinforced semi-closed deck engine block with forged aluminum-alloy pistons, forged high-carbon steel connecting rods and sodium-filled exhaust valves.

There is some debate if the pistons are forged or cast using a high pressure process, but the block and internals are all upgraded from their NA models.

Ken

howard5091

I have a 1998 Legacy L wagon that was used by the US Postal Service. The car has 442,000 miles on the origional 2.2l motor and tranny. The only thing that has been touched on the car is obviously maintenance items (plugs, wires, clutch and timing belts). I am very suprised that the car has lasted like it has and it shows no signs of quitting anytime soon, no oil consumption or knocking. Just thought I would share the story.

meliaant

Anyone else suffering from this horrific disorder? My drivers side dash rattles like the dickens, and apparently at www.legacygt.com, its happening with tons of Legacys...any dealerships service it accordingly? I'm 0 for 4...

kodiakrocks

The road was paved when the noise started but we had been on some shoulder gravel earlier in the day. Would an inserted pebble not make noise for the first 25 miles and then suddenly start (all of the driving at that point was paved)?
Thanks for the reply!

kodiakrocks

Thanks, I'll check jazzy out. What a stupid thing for Subaru to wait to introduce in 2007!

kens

I think some people were finding that their fuel lines were rubbing right behind the firewall making the sound seem to come from behind the dash. In this case, there is a TSB issued by Subaru to repair the noise. One way to find this out is by simply zip-tieing the fuel lines together on the engine side of the firewall.

FYI, my 05 GT has been rattle free.

Ken

xwesx

If the rock is in there, it is going to squeal. But, a rock can be picked up anywhere - not just on a gravel surface. All the rocks I was picking up earlier this winter were on paved surfaces, but they had been "sanded" so there were some small pebbles on the road, but not all that many (perfect size to get stuck in the rotors, apparently!). The rock is probably going to be something on the order of 1/8" to 1/4" in diameter - nothing huge, by any means! The more small rocks, the higher the probability.

Have you had any problems since?

al2005

Hi,
Can anybody tell me if $20500 is fair price for 2007 Legacy 2.5i Special Edition? The price has included manufacture rebate and is before TTL. I am in NJ. It sounds ok compared with Edmuns market price. But I checked FitzMall and found the price for SE was $1000 lower than I quoted. Can i do any better? Which resource should i use as the benchmark?
Thanks a lot!

terry92270

From what I have read here, and personally, the Edmunds prices are a bit high, compared to what things are selling for.

Fitzmall, if $1000 lower, and they will email confirm the price, worth traveling even 5 hours to get it.

smittynyc

If it's a wagon, it's an excellent deal that I would take in a heartbeat. If it's a sedan, you've got room for haggling.

Until Fitzmall puts a store in East Stroudsburg or New Haven or Wilmington or somewhere just a skosh closer to NYC, brandishing Fitzmall pricing here is more likely to get you a response along the lines of "Maryland's five or six hours that way; have a nice day!" than it is "We'll match that!"

terry92270

Why brandish it? Just drive to Fitzmall and save $1000 or $1500. Like you were going to be making that kind of money on a weekend anyway? :P

lrossnm

I have a '05 2.5i Outback wagon and love it!. Have been looking at the '07 Outback wagon LTD. Has anyone made that trade and can you advise me of what your impressions of the differences are? Thanks

erics6

Guess I must live in the right part of the country. Deals around here are usually better then Fitzmall prices. Good thing since it would be a 6-hour flight and 4 day drive back. :-)

lilengineerboy

We got the Subaru guaranteed trade in thing in the mail and we were curious what it would take to upgrade a bit. We were told no turbo manual wagons (I was under the impression you could still do it if you got an Outback, but I don't think MDW would've gone for that anyway). In fact, they said the only manual wagon was the base model. We might get to make our full RothIRA contributions after all.

ccurry

I'm having trouble getting my iPod with the iTrip attachment to play over the radio in my 2006 Outback.
When I hold the unit toward the back seat the broadcast comes in over the radio a little bit.
Does anybody have any advice?

garandman

I have a '05 2.5i Outback wagon and love it!. Have been looking at the '07 Outback wagon LTD. Has anyone made that trade and can you advise me of what your impressions of the differences are? Thanks

Other than the Limited trim, the primary differences are 175hp engine (with variable valve timing), 17" rims, and iPod access.

ateixeira

442k miles? Yowsah! :surprise:

You gotta get that to 1/2 million miles. :shades:

-juice

ateixeira

PS Is that Right hand drive? :confuse:

xwesx

Why brandish it? Just drive to Fitzmall and save $1000 or $1500. Like you were going to be making that kind of money on a weekend anyway?

Absolutely. Heck, that is a day trip there. Enjoy the drive.

smittynyc

It's a day trip if the day begins at 4:00 a.m. Maybe. You know that at least one leg of a NYC-DC car trip is going to get screwed up by something -- weather, traffic, pestilence, disease, famine. More often than not, it's both legs.

(Yes, I think NYC-DC is about as unappealing an intercity drive as exists anywhere in the US.)

xwesx

Oh, right.... I forget that this is the Eastern seaboard we are discussing and not open highways. Okay, so weekend trip. But yes, I was thinking about an 0500 departure and a return at about 2100, which would give plenty of time for picking up the car and meals/down time.

ateixeira

Come down by train. Go to Union Station in DC, the subway (called Metro) here is in the same building. Hop on the Red Line train, go to the White Flint stop. Fitz will pick you up, and even if they don't there is a shuttle that goes to the mall next to it.

Then drive it home.

For a grand, I'd do that, heck yeah.

-juice

kyfdx

Heck... for $500, juice will pickup the car, drive it to you, and take the train back... Everybody wins!

ateixeira

Funny thing is I'd probably do it if he dropped me off at the train station with a train ticket.

-juice

jack_d

Two months ago I bought the base 07 legacy 2.5i wagon and it has the manual driver seat. I find the bottom really uncomfortable for long drives (I am tall and it doesn't have a tilt adjust for the seat bench). I checked the mechanics under the seat and couldnt find anything that I could ajust to tilt it either.

I imagine swapping it for a power seat would be prohibitive. Does anyone know of a workaround that would raise the front of the seat up, even an inch or two?

I love everything else about the car, which holds its own well against my old Audi and will hopefully have much lower repair costs over the years, but am not enjoying longer drives as much as I'd like! Thanks for any advice.

doug1

Other items now std. on the 2.5i: better side-impact protection (via changes in the chest side-air bag, etc.), cabin air filtration, and an engine immobilizer (which was std. only on the XT and 6-cyl. models in 2005).

I'd wait for the 2008, which should provide at least a few improvements (hopefully including a telescoping steering wheel, as provided in Japan and Europe), as well as visual changes. Maybe by then the 5-speed auto. and VDC will be std. on the 2.5i as well, if Subaru gets its act together.

As for Limited vs. base (I have a 2005 XT Limited), the 6-CD changer is a very nice benefit. The auto. climate control is a mixed bag, as many of us here have found it requires a fair amount of fiddling. I'd prefer not to have the sunroof. Subaru doesn't provide much of a tint on the glass, so I find that I generally keep the shade closed to avoid glare. I'd rather have extra head and cargo room than the roof.

Doug

terry92270

You can unbolt the seat, add solid metal blocks with a hole drilled through them for the bolt, and raise it up about 1-1.5".

jack_d

Thanks for the idea. Would that run the risk of weakening the seat's anchoring during an accident?

Do Legacy cloth seats soften over time?

-JD

c_hunter

The Outback XT is available with 5-spd manual.

kyfdx

This could be a new CarSpace benefit... For a small fee, you can buy your car anywhere in the country, and a member that lives in the area will pick it up and drive it home for you..

We could even get an airline partner that would give us discounted one-way airfare... Maybe we'll put a magnetic sign with the airline's logo on the car for the drive..

We could really introduce nationwide competition into the car business..

I wonder why Richard Branson didn't think of this.. :surprise:

terry92270

One might need to take care and buy new bolts, of a high strength steel, about 1" longer, I would suppose.

jeffmc

"For a small fee, you can buy your car anywhere in the country, and a member that lives in the area will pick it up and drive it home for you."

Great idea. Ummmm... on a totally unrelated note, I'd like to put my name out for consideration as the first member of a Bugatti Veyron Crew here on Edmunds.

smittynyc

I'd need Amtrak to offer AutoTrain service from Penn Station to D.C. to move my trade-in!

paisan

and ride back with Juice for you.

-mike

rsorganize

Send me away, if you must...but, can't seem to find a place to ask these questions in the Impreza or WRX STI forums.

Last I visited, I was trying to decide between OB XT, Saab SportCombi and other vehicles. Wound up with an '04 Audi A6 Avant with 4135 miles - and, 46000 of original warranty and 50,000 mi. of certified/ext warranty. So far, a fabulous car.

Knew we would be looking, again, for another family vehicle. This time, am seriously considering a 2003 WRX sedan. Eventually, will be for our teen son - is this insane and/or criminal parental negligence? I admit I might be delusional here, but I am inclined to trust him when he declares that state laws (MA) that mandate license suspension when teen drivers receive moving violations tickets is a great motivator to be careful. This not-fully-developed teen brain can be rational on matters like this - can we trust that the same brain will excercise judgement in such a car?

Now, I have driven several WRX's. Like them, even though I am much more comfort-inclined - thus the A6. I realize the capacity they have - for speed - but, I didn't feel compelled to speed. Car seemed easily controllable. I put so many miles on my car, that - for the next 6+ months - I would use the car for moderate drives, hoping to save 5000 or more miles on the A6. WRX seemed OK as a commuter car, along with appeal - to the mature adult male that I am - to enjoy on the open road. Eventually, though it will be his. Nuts or what?

Also, on the specific car I am looking at: 2003...black...46.7k miles. Asking 11.9k, significantly below TMV/KBB. The catch: the car had been in an accident. Front bumper, hood and right panel have been replaced, along with the airbags. No frame or engine damage. Still, the car has a different title. Here, in MA, the state police will have to do an inspection to allow the sale. I have seen the accident pictures and the parts receipts. Car appears perfect - inside and out. Drove great. Car was definitely not 'totaled'. Insurance company/owner/body shop confusion spiraled into the 'salvage title' situation. Lots of interest, at the price.

I negotiate contracts and I am certain that 11.9 is the price.

So, what do you think?

As always - thanks..and, peace.

jeffmc

It has seemed to me that cars are never the same after an accident, no matter how well-repaired.

How 'bout a '05 or newer Legacy? May have a little warranty left, is extremely safe, a grown-up car for you for six months, can be modified by your son if he's into that, has more than adequate power, but not the amount that invites trouble. If you weren't going to be a driver, I'd even say Impreza over WRX. Legacy's kind of a compromise between your A6 and an Impreza, and is something neither of you should be embarassed to drive. Let him get a few miles under his belt before getting something with so much power.

My 2 cents. Good luck! Tough choices... you know your son best. I've still got about 12 years before I have to think about it.

zman3

I was in a bit of the same situation when I bought my 06 wagon. I intend to hand it down to my kid when he is sixteen or seventeen, in 7 years. I figure I'll have about 100K on it by then. I debated between getting the 2.5 turbo and the 3.0 H6. I liked both of them a lot.

In the end I decided I would much rather hand down a H6 than a turbo. Even though he seems like he is going to be a responsible kid, there was no way I was going to give him that much power. And no, I don't think you can (in general) trust the teenage brain to think that way, but you know your kid best.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Karl

rob_m

Teen driver in a WRX? Unless the kid is uber-responsible I myself would not do it. Too many first time unfortunate incidents with a car of that caliber.

Accident? I'd be a bit leary, especially with the air bag deployment.

I would look for an Impreza first, then maybe an Impreza RS 2.5 second. Just my .02 Rob M.