Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

paisan

If you think $75/tire is expensive, god bless. Check out Sumitommo HTR+ on Tirerack in the stock sizes, very very good tires.

-mike

xwesx

The Potenza RE92's just have a short tread life. It does not have anything to do with their sidewall height. If the replacement tires have the same treadwear rating, they will wear out just as fast (though I would hope they perform better in the interim!).

paisan

Actually it's funny the treadwear ratings are standard, so the treadwear rating for say an RE92 from Bridgestone can be XXX and the treadwear for a Sumitommo HTR+ can be XXX but they will not actually wear at the same rate! It's completely subjective and up to each manufacturer.

-mike

xwesx

:surprise: Well, that sure helps with tire shopping, does it not?! :mad:

kens

I believe the 07 Legacy comes with Yokohama Advan tires. The OE models are sometimes different from what's available aftermarket, but I think they are closest to the A82A model. The UTQG on these tires are only 160 so I'm not surprised at their short life.

Why are they so bad? Probably cost. Most OE tires for vehicles in it's class are there to provide just enough to get the customer by during the warranty period. There are plenty of low profile tires out there with longer treadlife.

Ken

kens

Mike,

I noticed you seem to be an advocate for the HTR+. My P-Zero Neros will probably need replacement this year and wanted to start looking at options.

What do you like about them? Could you describe how it compares up to other Ultra High Performance A/S tires?

They seem to be very well priced.

Ken

paisan

Well I ran these tires on my SVX back to back with a set of Dunlop SP5000s. The number one thing I like about them is the price. I believe they are in the $75 range so right there even if their life isn't as long as other tires on the market they are such a discount that it doesn't matter.

Handling with them in the snow was phenomenal for an AS tire, we were plowing through 8-12" of snow in upstate NY with the quite-low SVX with ease, previous years with the SP5000s we got through but were not nearly as surefooted. Same in the rain, the HTR+ has great water evacuation. In the dry the SP5000s were better but only marginally and the wet and snow traction provided by the HTR+ more than made up for it.

I'm a firm believer in replacing tires about ever 3 years, so while the HTR+ wore out in about 40,000 miles I felt that was more than enough tread and would have likely replaced them anyway, even if there was tread left on them.

The Price/Value really is there on them. I've driven in WRXs with the HTR+ and ones with the P-Zeros and the HTR+ handle the wet and snow better than the P-Zeros on them as well. I put the P-Zero on par with the SP5000s.

while they aren't $150 tires, they are more than adequet for what you would encounter on-road, if you are overdriving these tires in the winter/spring/fall, you are probably driving too fast for public roads. So why spend $150-200 a tire when a $75 tire will out-perform the level of driving you should be doing on-road?

Hope this helps Ken!

-mike

kens

Thanks, Mike. That does help quite a bit. That's a good point about using the lower price as an advantage to replace more often. I guess even the best AS tires do lose a lot of their grip once they are 1/2 way through their treadlife anyway.

The other tires I've been looking at were the RE960 AS and ContiExtremes.

Questions for you:

- The SP5000s you mention above: symmetrical or asymmetrical?
- Your thoughts on going from stock 215/45R17 to a plus one 18" rim with 225/40R18.

Thanks,

Ken

paisan

I believe the SP5000s were Asymmetrical.
Contis are worthless, seen a lot of folks with WRXs buy em and not be happy with them
How are the potholes in your area? If they aren't too bad, I'd go for 18s but be prepared to pay more for tires. Personally I try to stay with whichever rims have the most available tires, leading to more choices and lower cost for the tires. Also with a 40 series tire you'll have a harsher ride, not necessarily a bad thing though.

-mike

lilengineerboy

I had the SP5000s on another vehicle and wasn't particularly impressed with them. I don't think I would get those again. I have been really happy with Kumho Ecsta ASXs I got just before winter. They are at least as sure footed as the MXV4s they replaced and were very economical. They have also been fun on the curly Q on and off ramps around town.
As far as wheel size, bigger wheels are typically heavier than smaller wheels, and that can have a detrimental affect on vehicle handling and acceleration. I would probably by a better set of 17" wheels w/ultra high performance tires before going to 18s.

samiam_68

SP5000 are the worst tires I have ever had on any car. Complete garbage. Leaks, bubbles, blowouts, flatspotting, you name it. I suffered for 15,000 miles with them on my Lexus, then got rid of them with 70% tread left and replaced them with Yoko Avid V4S. Couldn't be happier.

I was so impressed with the Avids, I put them on my FXT, and almost all other cars within the family and friends circle that needed tires. Everyone is very happy with their Avids.

paisan

Interesting as i've had several sets of SP5000s and they were nearly R-compound like grip, good wear, etc. Could be the size or perhaps if they were OEMs on the Lexus.

-mike

lilengineerboy

Interesting as i've had several sets of SP5000s and they were nearly R-compound like grip, good wear, etc. Could be the size or perhaps if they were OEMs on the Lexus.

Eh, I should edit mine...I wouldn't get them again living in Michigan. I thought they were fine in California, they did great in the rain and the grip was fun on smooth roads. In Michigan, they were loud over broken pavement and traction in light snow was low (worse than the SP4000s they replaced).

As far as R-compound type grip, eh, I have R-compound tires for that

paisan

I agree in that most AS tires are really Spring/Summer/Fall. The HTR+ happen to also be good in the snow as well.

As for Rs for Summer tires I like the Yoko ES100s or Faulken Azenis Sports depending on how agressive you want to get. I ran the Azenis Sports for a whole season of HPDE on the Legacy, when I was driving it to the tracks and didn't want to swap tires at each event.

May be looking at a used BMW 740il if so I'll have to get dedicated winter tires and some ubber-good summer rubber for it.

-mike

kens

Potholes are not very common where I am so 18"s are an option. But good point about the cost. Looking at Tire Rack, they are about $20 more per tire on a 40-series. I've ridden in my friend's Spec-B (18" stock rim) and the ride has been tolerable.

I've had very good luck with SP5000 symmetrical with my previous Forester. Good bang for the buck, good wear (got about 50-60K on each) and decent performance.

Ken

cuty718

lilengineerboy

I was under the impression that there were no mechanical differences between the Spec B and the Legacy GT. That would make the GT an even better bargain.

paisan

There are actually quite a few mechanical differences:

6MT which is bulletproof
Rear Torsen Limited Slip Diffy (R180) which is mechanical v. viscous
Aluminum Suspension components
Bilstein Suspension setup
18" wheels
VDC

All of those things combined together give it a bit of an edge over a std LGT. That's why I'm not even considering the LGT at this point because the increase in cost of the SpecB is outweighed by the parts alone in it. Let alone the labor to install them.

-mike

lilengineerboy

By mechanical I meant engine mods over the normal Legacy GT. That article showed 0-60 times which don't seem like they would be helped by big heavy tires/wheels, VDC, and it might actually have been hurt by the 6 spd vs the 5 spd (if the ratios are too close together, the car will require an additional shift--ie can't do 60 in 2nd).
I think the limited slip diff is about the only advantage there, and I don't know if its enough of an advantage over the torsen to make a difference in 0-60.

paisan

Who cares about 0-60? If I wanted to drag race I'd be looking at a GTO 400hp/400lbs torque....

-mike

ateixeira

Did you also scan in the page with the lap times?

I think those are more important, because they are a good dynamic measure of how a car handles transitions. spec.B lapped the quickest, Speed6 came in 2nd. They pretty much humiliate the luxury competition that also costs more.

ateixeira

The spec.B won when price was a factor, but price-no-object they actually picked the Audi A4.

Of course for anyone with a mortage, price matters.

lilengineerboy

Who cares about 0-60? If I wanted to drag race I'd be looking at a GTO 400hp/400lbs torque....

I concur but that is what was highlighted in spec sheet of the article. At the same time, if I really wanted to corner I would probably not pick a 3500# car.

mike1944

can anyone give me real figures as to their city/highway/combined mpg numbers for the 2.rgt w/aotomatic.2.5i w/automatic.

michaelnc

2007 Legacy 2.5i SE

Averaging about 30.5mpg, mostly open country roads. I keep the speed under 60mph. I have about 4k miles on my engine.

Hope this helps!

Mike F.

kens

2005 Legacy GT Ltd. 5EAT

Typical mileage 90% highway at 75-80mph: 23-24mpg

Typical mileage 50/50 mixed: 20mpg

Best mileage 100% highway, constant 80mph: 26mpg

Ken

nickel

My mileage is pretty similar to kens. After 10,000 miles, I'm averaging 22.8 mpg, mixed driving, not a lot of stop and go (cause I live in suburbia).

jeffmc

'06 Legacy SE 2.5i auto: Average driving style, 12,642 total miles, averaging 27mpg combined with about 70% freeway travel, most of that during stop-and-go congestion or rolling slowdowns w/tranny in "sport" mode. Regularly achieve 25-ish city & 30-ish highway during normal traffic conditions. Have achieved as high as 33mpg on a tank on a nearly all interstate trip, Seattle to Portland & back, steady speeds 70-75mph.

Very pleased to be at or above the mpg estimates both city & hwy.

petersimmons

There is a way to permanently disable the incredibly annoying, nagging seatbelt warning chime. Turn on the ignition, and insert and take out the seatbelt connector TWENTY TIMES in a row. You will still get the first quick six chimes when you start the car, but that will be it.

lilengineerboy

You know, I always put on my seat belt before I start the car, I don't even know if I've ever heard the chime.

michaelnc

There is one on ebay right now. I think it is located in Delaware. Reserve is MSRP.

ateixeira

It won't sell. They're not *that* popular.

Oddly, though, this year wasn't a limited edition like the 2007 was (800 made). However, my dealer told me they got less this year than they did last!

rs_petty

kens,
Did you ever find a good answer. I've been looking around for one oil for all my equipment. I'm also interested in a new 2.5 Outback. Shell Rotella T synthetic 5w-40 or the Delvac 5w-40 synthetic come about as close to a homeowner "fleet oil" as anything I can find. Just wondering what you found.

paisan

40 weight is too thick I think for these newer cars.

-mike

rs_petty

Yes, I suspected so. Most new engines are going to very light oils. The only place I really know they put the weight rating is in the owner manual, its almost impossible to find in general specifications. Most engines give you 2 or 3 recommended weights with a preferred based on temp scale. I was hoping to work my way to one good oil product that would work in multiple engines, air cooled, water cooled, gas and diesel and that I didn't have to mail order. But suppose its not meant to be. Maybe I'll just wait and see when the boxer diesel comes to the US. Thanks.

renssils

I just spent two weeks in and around Rio de Janeiro, Brazil and saw not a single Subaru. We rented three Hertz cars, all of which had five-speed manual transmissions: a Toyota Corolla, which Hertz classifies as an "exec limo"; a Fiat Palio 1.4 flexfuel, which failed; and a VW Polo 1.6 flexfuel, which we thought a better car than the other two. Most of the cars in Rio are very small VW, Renault, Citroen, Peugeot or Fiat models that aren't sold in the USA. Japanese cars are less common. Korean cars are very rare. Audi A4 and BMW 3-series are for the affluent. My Subaru 2007 spec.B seemed so smooth, powerful, and luxurious to me after driving those three cars in Brazil, but the spec.B's clutch seemed trucklike to me after two weeks of my driving cars with weak engines. My wife's 2007 Subaru LL Bean Outback seems positively sybaritic.

nickel

Is the clutch on those cars better than the Spec B?

tomsr1

I am considering a Subaru but worry about maintenance costs.
I saw a posting where someone was concerned about $750 for a 30000 service which is high.Edmunds maintenance says it should be $307 which is okay. So who is right? :confuse:

cptplt

the 307 is probably what the owners manual says you need as a minimum, the 750 is probably a dealers padded package price with all sorts of goodies you don't need - like the cleaning throttle body and injectors and other pretty useless stuff or changing spark plugs at 30K rather than 60 etc etc etc..

renssils

The spec.B's clutch is neither better nor worse than the clutches of the small-engined cars that we drove in Brazil. The Subaru spec.B has a more powerful engine, lots of horsepower and torque, and requires a larger clutch. The Toyota Corolla's clutch was the least pleasant, the VW Polo the nicest. The Palio, Fiat's world car, was by far our least favorite. All three had light clutches and light, easy to shift transmission linkages because they had engines with so little power. The Toyota had 110 horsepower; I don't know about the others. By the way, I owned a 2006 spec.B, which does have a heavy clutch. By contrast, my 2007 spec.B's clutch is featherweight.

ateixeira

That's where I'm from, and all you'll find is a few leftover imports from the Collor presidency era.

They impeached him. So don't look for any presidents to open up the market for imports any time soon!

michaelnc

Tried my T-70 bit on Saturday. I can say without any hesitation that this is the correct bit for the front diff. sump. I changed the fluid to synthetic (not at all necessary, just wanted to since it was so easy!) I bought a measuring funnel with a two-foot clear hose-made the job completely mess-free.

Mike F.
Hickory, NC
'07 Legacy SE

ic_designer

Any chance that the 3.6L H6 in Tribeca will migrate to the Outback model in the future or will it fit in the current Outback engine bay?

ateixeira

It's no wider, and only a fraction of an inch longer. I don't see why not.

It could use it to stay competitive with the V6s in Nissan, Toyota, and Honda sedans.

rsholland

I would think that's the plan, but not before the next-generation model.

Bob

ateixeira

I think it would be a mistake to wait 2 full years to do that. To be honest they should have had it ready for this model year.

With the Legacy and Outback, if you want a powerful engine you have to buy premium fuel. The operating costs are much higher than they'd be for the 2.5i models.

rsholland

Maybe, but offering the larger engine with the all-new (and larger) Legacy and Outback also makes sense. It makes the all-new model just that more special.

I think you might see a higher performance 3.0 for 2009 (turbo tuned-by STI?), and the 3.6 for the all new 2010 model.

Bob

ateixeira

Well, BMW and Mercedes are now introducing new engines for the mid-model makeovers, to spark up interest. I think that strategy helps the cars not go stale. They really haven't changed much since 2005.

rsholland

Oh, I think we will see a new engine next year in the Legacy and Outback, just not the 3.6. I think they'll try to spice up the spec.B with a hotter engine.

Who knows, I could be wrong.

Bob

lilengineerboy

I currently have a reasonably big investment in Yakima bike mounts (some older than others) and cross bars and such and I noticed that the OEM rack looks like a Thule (square bars). I know there is a kit from Yakima with "lo-rider" towers that mount to the roof rack. Has anyone had any experience with these? It seems the slightly older "EZ-rider" is more readily available on eBay and such - is that the same part with a higher profile?
Also, how challenging to install is the OEM STi short shift kit? The car is great but it feels like I am rowing a canoe when I shift.
Thanks for your thoughts...