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Lexus GS 300/GS 430

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Comments

  • bartalk2bartalk2 Posts: 326
    Is it a "flat-chested broad" or a "40-year old secretary"?

     

    Though this thread is mainly inhabited by men, we ought to try to avoid sexist remarks and stick to cars. I'm sure you agree.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,323
    The auto manufacturers populate their displays with pretty women who are also there for display-to attract men to the cars. For, in most cases when you ask one of them a technical question about the vehicle, they do not know the answer. It would be nice if the manufacturers could also "stick to the cars" as you put it. I am not defending the use of such crude sexist remarks. However, it is the auto manufacturers themselves who invite these remarks because they are flaunting "sex sells." When I asked a pretty young lady at the Lexus exhibit how many inches of legroom for the driver in the new GS which was on display, she had no idea which leads me to the question, why was she there? The answer appears obvious.
  • Anyone know what the 0-60 difference will be between the normal GS300 and AWD GS300, due to the 224 extra pounds on the AWD?
  • bartalk2bartalk2 Posts: 326
    Jones: According to the manuf. specs., the GS300 RWD is 0-60: 6.8 seconds; AWD is 6.9. The reason it's so close, despite the extra weight, is that the AWD has a higher final gear ratio for more power.

     

    hpowders: I agree that lots of reps and models at the car shows know little about the cars; but I've run into the same problem with men as with women. Last year at the L.A. auto show, e.g., at the Toyota and Lexus exhibits, nobody, men or women, seemed to know anything. Maybe that was because they send the "talent" to Detroit, where the big show was on at the same time. But it's a general problem.

     

    Granted that car manufacturers know that for men, there's no combo like cars and women. Thus the models. On the other hand, they've got male models there, too, not that there's anything wrong with that, to coin a phrase, who know just as little as the women.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Whats wrong with me? Why am I siding with Merc on all of these posts? Sorry Lexus fans, but the truth is (and this is coming from a fan of the company, NOT a German lover) that Lexus as a company, despite their success in the U.S. market, has a LONG, uphill battle to fight against the German luxury\prestige establishment.

     

    Infiniti has already figured out their mission, to 1. put the hurt on Acura, and 2. attack BMW directly in strategic places. Doing this long enough with more models in the future will eventually earn some respect for the Infiniti name, at which point they may be able to branch out into other markets (maybe try at Lexus again).

     

    Things are more difficult for Lexus. The ES, LS, and the SUVs are established and well liked by the US automarket, and they cant abandon them, or the reasons why people buy them over their competition. The problem is, the US automarket is the ONLY market where Lexus does well. Mercedes has the most prestige car sales in Japan, and good luck finding a Lexus on the street in Europe. Toyota is making gobs of money, so they really can experiment (and fail) in the sporty small and midsize segments as many times as they want. Eventually, they should be able to get it right. The '06 GS and IS should be the start of better sport cars from Lexus, but I hardly expect them to come up with world beaters on their second try. (Ok, 3rd try for GS.)
  • The US Market is the only market that matters (and the emerging China Market, which will be THE #1 market in 10 years.)!!

     

       If you can rock here, you can rock anywhere!

     

       Lexus is only 15 years old! I think the Germans have had a good enough head start.

     

       They set up their company to take America by storm with quality, service, and dependability. Mission accomplished! Now onto mission two.

     

       Make the cars more exciting, more desireable, increase the upper-crust appeal of the marque, while still maintaining the core value principle.

     

       This will take another 5 years or so to complete.

     

       THEN they can divide up the world and conquer it. You can tell lexus is still strategizing how to play in other markets.

     

       It would appear taking over America was easy!

     

       If they don't build a better 325i, I can forgive them. That's not why they're here.

     

       They're here to take care of us. To give us all we need. THEN they can work on all our wants.

     

       DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "The US Market is the only market that matters" ok THATS an incredibly foolish statement. Also, Toyota made one of their very rare mistakes in choosing to not enter China when they had the chance several years ago. Now they've got to face a well entrenched VW and GM. You better believe VW will fight tooth and nail for China as well, its the only market left they actually sell cars in.

     

    "This will take another 5 years or so to complete."

     

    Sure it will, because Lexus will have a 5 year vacuum all to themselves where no other automaker will be allowed to innovate or release new products.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Lexusguy:

     

    Nothing wrong with you. You make excellent points, but I gotta disagree somewhat. So here is my take:

     

    Like DrFill reminded you, Lexus is only 15 years in the market, versus 116+ for MB and 80+ for BMW. These are years you cannot overcome in a short time. Lexus strategy is a grand plan. It includes Toyota becoming the WORLD #2 car seller by 2010 or earlier. How do you think Toyota will achieve this ?

     

    Second, hybrid technology adapted to automobiles, a trend that may very well define the next great innovation. And leading the charge is Toyota. When (if) you can make a car with a V12-performance and a V6 fuel economy, at 500bhp output, that is something outstanding ! Toyota will only improve market share going forward.

     

    Thirdly, Toyota has the largest stash of CASH in the auto industry. Think they wanna just sit on it ? They are a profit-making machine. Exceeded 2million cars/trucks sold in the all-important NA market FY2004. That is something !

     

    Toyota's name is GOLD in Japan. They dominate the Asian markets already. They made a slow start in China, but will catch up pretty soon - the power of money, influence, and prestige.

     

    Now compare and contrast the above with BMW and MB. These two marques seem to be regressing lately. The best distinguishing facet of today's MB is its beautiful exterior designs. Is that what a marque should be known for ? And BMW is already losing its legendary ride quality that many owners rave about, so I hear (haven't driven a late model Bimmer to attest to this).Need we mention the deleterious effects of the new exterior styling and i-drive ?

     

    Despite these, MB and BMW still largely retain their prestige and brand recognition, but they are more based on history than anything they are achieving lately. The most prestigious of them all - MB - even rated close to the bottom on reliability in its home country. How sad is that ! Sales are slumping as well, with MB now #4 in the US market, behind Cadillac. BMW is doing pretty well, relatively, but look threatened by Infiniti, and probably by Lexus. And if history is anything to go by, expect BMW to face more challenges from Japan in coming years. How will they respond ? Guess we'll see. Lexus already proved they can take on the mighty MB and beat them at their game. How will they do against BMW, we'll have to wait and see.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I was talking more about Lexus than Toyota. Obviously Toyota is very strong, and should continue to grow in this market, along with Chrysler, Nissan, and the Koreans, at the continued expense of GM, Ford, and VW. Honda I think is starting to slide as well.

     

    Lexus is still growing here, mostly taking M-B customers, but Mercedes slump may change as they introduce the new M and R classes, which I think will be big hits here. I noticed they arent offering free maintanence any more though...

     

    Basically what I was saying is its going to be a long hard road for Lexus to get the kind of WORLD, not US, prestige of a M-B or BMW. They need cars that can sell world wide, a consistent and easily recognized design language, and offer real performance to people who want that in a Lexus.
  • Nice stick save!

     

       But, uh, look.

     

       Toyota's got their thing together. Do they look/act worried? It's not their way, but when a conservative, non-boastful company like Cho's 'Yota says we'll have 15% of the world in 5 years, you can bet the farm on that!!

     

       Who looks worried to you? To Me?

     

       Mercedes. GM. Ford. VW.

     

       Who/What are they worried about?

     

       Anywho, thing are falling right into place for 'Yota.

     

       The next Tundra will double in sales by 2008, then double again in another 5-6 years. That's over 400k. That will come mostly out of Ford. I think GM will score pretty well with their next truck in 2007, too.

     

       Prius sales will DOUBLE THIS YEAR in the US, much less elsewhere.

     

       With the $3 gas prices in the rest of the world (we get a volume discount), do you think 'Yota's engine efficiency will gain acceptance?

     

       And they have the money, product, and tech to catch VW in China, and be at least in the Top 3 there 5-10 years from now.

     

       In Europe, they'll be behind the germans for a while more, with diesel so big there Germans head start even more pronounced there, with a greater emphasise on driving dynamics.

     

       My point is, this ship is the Queen Mary, and everyone knows it! Their just rollin' now. In 5 years, it's rock and roll!

     

       DrFill

     

        

     

       P
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Basically what I was saying is its going to be a long hard road for Lexus to get the kind of WORLD, not US, prestige of a M-B or BMW. They need cars that can sell world wide, a consistent and easily recognized design language, and offer real performance to people who want that in a Lexus

     

    Agree totally with you. Lexus lacks the history which time can bridge. They are starting with their own design trend (LF-S, LF-X, LF-A, LF-C). Launching the brand in Japan is the FIRST real step towards a worldwide presence. The first releases in the 06 GS, 06 IS and 07 LS will come soon enough, which may then show us how much forward progress the *new* Lexus brand will make worldwide. Hopefully, they will meet and exceed the lofty expectations WE have all placed on them.
  • I have a feeling that they will. Toyota isn't dumb. And they are rollin in the benjamins. Or yen.... meh
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    One thing I have noticed is that Lexus interiors are starting to get some real Audi-esque elegance. They've always had top notch materials in the past, but the actual execution was somewhat bland until recently. The RX330 has a fabulous interior, and the GS is a huge improvement over the old. The next LS should be an A8 style knock out.
  • I hope so.... even the interior in the new Avalon looked really good, so imagine what Lexus can do with its most expensive sedans.... also the fact that VW/Audi have taken a hit in US sales....
  • Despite you might be correct in terms of Mercedes and BMW are the best selling premium car in Japan, however, you might not be aware that many of us in Japan are beginning to fed up with all those poor ergonomics and electronic reliability in many recent made German cars especially in some areas in Japan where hot weather and high humidity levels have cause these cars suffered enormous amount of short circuits and blown fuses in it’s electrical system and my former BMW 5-series (now I drive the Celsior instead) is one of the best examples to such problem. Also if any of you know how to read Japanese, go visit some of our country’s automotive forums and look at endless number of complaints posted about these German cars and one of the comments stated by one of our forum members state the following

    "I don't care if these Germans going to release new breathtaking design sedans, I would never buy these cars if their ergonomics and electronics continues to be poor".

    To prove my point, look at how the sales for the Fuga sedan in Japan have virtually exploded after 3 months of it’s release and most of the customers have traded their BMW and Mercedes for the Fuga. Because they trust that Nissan cars are reliable cars that aren’t break down as often as the Germans, despite they fully understand they won’t have as much driving excitement as they have with the Germans. The next GS sedan too like the Fuga would going to become very popular in Japan? Why?? From my exclusive test drive offer by Mr. Sato, I can tell that despite with it’s shortcomings such as the design and it’s driving dynamics might not be as good as the Germans. But nevertheless l do very appreciate the fact the car achieve a very good balance in terms of luxury and performance with excellent ergonomics, interior atmosphere, and good performance and dynamics if you want to push this car into it’s limits. Therefore, the GS is the sedan that can meet every driver needs no matter you like to push it hard or drive it leisurely. This is the key for Lexus success and I am very confident, no matter when Toyota enter into the Chinese market, they would beat out every competition and eventually become the best motor company in the world!

    Lexus’s New Vision “DNA of Lexus: A good compromise between luxury and Performance” TV advertisement in Japan

    Ken
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I love reading this about who's scared of Toyota and how Toyota is going to take over the world.

     

    While it is a very big advantage to have so much money at their disposal, execution of the product is even more important. Car companies that feel threatened or that are in a crisis often come out swinging and usually make some major hits when forced too. Thats all Toyota is going to do to GM, Ford, VW and MB and BMW on the luxury side. The Germans will fight to the death in Europe before they let anyone take over those markets.

     

    The companies that are truly in trouble are Jaguar, Mitsu, and Isuzu. I also predict Porsche will eventually need to partner up, they're just too small.

     

    M
  • dl7265dl7265 Posts: 1,381
    How many buyers of 50k+ vehicle care weather a battery is in it or not ? In addition I do not have stat's but I understand that the majority of vehicles in that price class are leased. What are the long term cost/repairs for the electric engine ? if one was to make a purchase.

     

    It seems that a comparable Diesel model that can last into the hundreds of thousands of miles would be a more logical choice.

     

    From all the water cooler talk from non-car guys/gals, they already recognize that prius for example does not live up to mpg claims and I hear a lot of id just buy a "Diesel Jetta" instead.

     

    These are not my comments or definitive opinions but just a gage of the regular buying public....

     

    Regards,

    DL
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The fact that the Prius generally fails to meet EPA stats is mostly the EPA's fault. Their testing methods are totally unrealistic, and because of certain specific factors, (for one, the EPA doesnt use A\C) it gives specific advantages to hybrids that arent in the real world.

     

    Diesel works great in Europe, but it has yet to entice the American public. The "Clean diesel" thats supposed to be available next year might help things, but its also supposed to make the price of diesel go up, and it already costs as much as premium, so again, a few VWs arent going to make much of a dent against the hybrid onslaught by Honda and Toyota coming in the next few years. VW is having enough trouble selling ANY Jettas.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Were that the case here in the US, VW (and MB) should be running away with sales in the US. But we know that is not the case, and not anytime soon either.

     

    The Prius' success is not just because it is a hybrid-powered car, but because it is a Toyota, with a brand recognition as well as market leadership position in hybrid technology.
  • Decent review at car connection without hard (tested) performance numbers.

     

    If the biggest complaint anyone has about the new GS (430 in this case) is the lateral seat support then I am content.

     

    By the way, does anybody know if you must get the ML system if you get the navigation option. I suspect the reverse is necessary but can you get navi sans ML?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think most of Prius success is due to not just mpg, but that its legitimately better for the environment. Driving a diesel might get you some extra miles to the gallon, but it wont win you any friends in the Sierra club. You cant even buy E320d in California, which is the Prius' biggest market.
  • dl7265dl7265 Posts: 1,381
    Trying to not get to far off topic from the GS here, BUT Who is the hybrid buyer in the lux car market ? A current Diesel or hybrid buyer needs to keep the vehicle at least 60 months , just to brake even.

     

    I guess the point is majority of true Diesel buyers want the vehicle to put 100k-200K + miles. I would submit that again the majority of upper level lux car buyers are typically a 36 month lease.

     

    About a year or so ago I was in a local MB dealer that had a 1998 300d , asking price ? same as new! And there were 3 offers for the vehicle while I was standing there.

     

    Does hybrid technology need to be explored ? absolutely! in a 65k vehicle does it make sense ? I guess we will see.

     

    Regards,

    DL
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The RX400h is going to be a monster hit for Lexus. As fast as the German 8s, with twice the mpg. In comparison, nobody seems to care about the diesel toureg, probably because its something like $65k.
  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    Lexusguy,

     

    Drove the 2006 M35 today, sweet.... How do you think the 2006 GS will compare?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Can you provide a little more details on your test drive of the M35 ? Will help to hear your thoughts on this car.

     

    As for the GS300, Edmunds has a "First Drive" thingy written up, but from the content it looks like they never even drove the car (yet). So not much to say about the GS.
  • dl7265dl7265 Posts: 1,381
    How much extra are you willing to pay for your RX400h ?

     

    DL
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Hard to really say at this point. The acceleration, for one, will be different. M has a significant advantage in hp and torque, which leads to about a half tick faster 0-60 (if Lexus' 6.8 RWD\6.9 AWD projections are right). The M should be closer to the 5, a little stiffer, with better handling, while the GS is closer to E, more refined, more luxurious. The GS is also going to cost more by a few grand. Both of them should have the best sound systems in the class.

     

    The GS300 uses Lexus' traditional VDC system so it wont have any of the advanced VDIM features (e-brakes, Lexus' version of active steering, etc.) So at least with the V6 versions, the M should definitely be the sportier of the two.
  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    Drove the M35 yesterday and was blown away by the understated luxury and lay out of the interior. The car is a rolling quality entertainment center, has everything but a pop-corn machine. DVD,MP3, 14 speaker Bose surround sound, 6 disc CD, super nav, back up camera. I could see spending my evenings in the garage in this car.

    Really like the E class size. The car is a lot more attractive and classy than last year. I kind of prefer the GS front end look but that is a blonde/brunnette thing. Your right on the stiffer ride, certainly feel the road on the 18" standard wheels. Accleration was impressive, braking and handling super. The M45 would be a rocket that would put a permanent smile on your face.

    Nit picking: only found two things..If your phone isn't blue tooth, then you will have wires to the cigar lighter in the ash tray. Not a 12V outlet in the console. Wish they offered 17" wheels as an option, 18" V rated tires are more performance orientated than I need.
  • "The car is a lot more attractive and classy than last year"

     

       Really? You don't say!

     

       DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Heh. The Gloria will never win any awards for great styling. Or even "marginally acceptable" styling.
  • Thanks for your opinion c148, nice review. I'd like to hear your comparison when you have a chance to drive the '06 GS.

     

    What was the sticker price of the M you drove?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,077
    Folks, this isn't "general chat," and it's not a comparisons topic.

     

    If you want to create a topic to discuss the merits of BMW v Infiniti v Mercedes v Lexus, go ahead on the News & Views board. We already have some luxury marque discussions on the Sedans board that would be appropriate for that conversation.

     

    Last warning or this topic is dead.

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  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    "What was the sticker price of the M you drove?"

     

    The dealer had a blank sticker on the window, exact pricing had not come in yet. "TBD"
  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    Sorry Kristie, didn't see your note before the last post.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well then tell Edmunds' editors to get on that full test, with actual comments about how the car really handles.
  • There is the another road test 2006 GS review at msnbc under newsweek 'a smooth operator' heading. Sorry, I don't think I can post the link here. The text is a bit thin as are the first two reviews as above. Video is also included there showing different colors.
  • dl7265dl7265 Posts: 1,381
    Picked up a 2006 brochure this evening.Dealer states that they supposed to get 1 model in to drive in a week. Said the 300 should be about 45-50k. Also they have a few 2005 left for invoice or about 37k.

     

    After looking the brochure over it really looks more like a mid-model restyling,not so much a complete redesign. The power train being the biggest change.

     

    Also, the Toyota dealer thats attached had a new Avalon limited in, 38k plus 2k for added dealer profit. So you can get a 05 300 for 37k, an es330 for 33k or a toyota avalon for 40k..hmm

     

    DL
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The GS's mid-cycle freshing, when it became 300 and 430 in 2001, looked EXACTLY the same as the old car. Only Lexus freaks could tell that the headlights had been tweaked a bit. So for the GS, its a major depature. If you feel the previous gen was good enough, dont buy a new 300 for 37. You can get a certified pre-owned and loaded 430 for less than that, and it will flat out wax the old 300 (and the new one as well). The Avalon might have the power, but both it and the ES just dont compete in terms of driving dynamics.
  • ckelly14ckelly14 Posts: 105
    How are you able to drive these cars? Are they out on the market yet?
  • dl7265dl7265 Posts: 1,381
    Personally I would not purchase a fwd car.I just think its funny that the toyota dealer thats next door to Lexus is asking such premium prices in addition to their scotch guard,mud flaps, ect, ect...

     

    On that '05 300 ,I see the invoice is more like $35,100 and there is 1k cash to dealer now.So they werent offering me any favors.

     

    DL
  • Hello dl7265

    Back in Japan, Toyota is currently offering huge incentives to clear all Aristo sedan (the GS, you called them right?) to prepare for the launch of the new GS sedan and I am very surprised as to why your dealer haven’t offer any incentive for the may-be they haven’t receive orders from Japan yet. So I do suggest you should wait a couple of weeks, which hopefully by then, they receive the orders coming from Japan and start discounting them. Typically, they should offer discount from around 3.5 upwards to 5 million yen (approx 3500-5000 US dollars) for each car. Of course the amount of discount would varied from country to country, but I do suggest you to take a try and bargain at the discount range I just mentioned if you are seriously the older Aristo sedan.

    However l would advice if you have the money available, you should buy the new GS (06) than the current model because if you have a chance to ride this sedan next week, you would know (from my own test drive back in Japan) there’s a good improvement in terms of it’s driving dynamics (ie handling, performance) than the older Aristro sedan, which is mainly contribute from it’s new chassis. Material quality around the car are the same as the typical luxury Toyota sedan and have a few toys (gadgets) you can play with around from time to time. Unfortunately, sometimes the seat itself does not fit you very comfortably especially if you have a very wide body size and rear visibility (like the old GS) is not as good as expected especially if you are very tall person. So exclude all these shortcomings in visibility, seat and it’s design, it’s a very good and balanced vehicle and if you demand “pure luxury” while at the same time you demand some performance characteristics in the car, then this would the car that would suit your needs.

    Hope this will help with your purchase!

    Ken
  • Sorry dl7265 ,I mistakenly translate wrong currency exchange rate. The actual discount price for the current Aristo sedan in Japan ranges from around 3.5 upwards to 5 "HUNDRED Thousand" yen (Not million), which is approx. 3500-5000 US dollars

    I apologize any misunderstandings that have occurr

    Ken
  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    Yep- Both are avaiable for driving, think they can start delivering them the last week of the month. Call your dealer, he will tell you what he has & what is coming in.
  • dl7265dl7265 Posts: 1,381
    Hi Ken, Thanks for your assistance and insight.I havent decided on a 300.It is on my short list.Unfortunatly there are only a few quality RWD sedans that im interested in.

     

    The Dealer here has aprox 7 '05 300 left. The '06 demo supposed to be here in the week supposedly ,and cars on the ground "pre sold" in a few weeks.

     

    Regards,

    DL
  • I talked to dealers in Naperville, Il and Westmont, Il and learned the GS will be available for test drive at each locale within a week. McGrath Lexus in Westmont is doing a GS intro night next Weds. One salesman told me he drive the GS300 and loved it of course but was a bit disappointed that the GS430 would come in around $60K. Both dealers said you wont be able to get Mark Levinson on the 300 and have to go 430 if you want that.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Neither of us are ever going to "get it".

     

    M
  • bartalk2bartalk2 Posts: 326
    Invited to GS introductions at two Lexus dealerships next week, each featuring hors d'oeuvres and refreshments.

     

    Will buy from dealer with the best food.
  • bartalk2bartalk2 Posts: 326
    Can't believe you can only get ML on 430. My guess is that you can get ML on 300, but only bundled with NAV.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah that sounds kind of wierd, considering the entry level ES330 has ML.
  • Re the ML on the GS300, perhaps in their initial production they arent going to offer it and will have as an option after a few months?
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