Toyota to add more hybrids.....

john1701a

Before the new Prius was announced, the hybrid forum here was so active it made it to Edmunds top-10 list and stayed there for quite awhile.

Activity died afterward. There was nothing to debate. The aspects that some people had identified as shortcomings had been overcome. The new Prius fulfills even their criteria.

Discussions instead could evolve here, but realistically those kind of posts are only popular when only the vehicle itself is discussed. Off-Topic message content that deals with politics and other vehicles tend to make people lose interest.

JOHN

nippononly

so much talk of "upcoming hybrids" for months now, more than a year in fact, and yet here we are on July 29, 2003 and STILL we have only Honda and Toyota in the hybrid ring...and Toyota still has only the one model they have had for a couple of years. Given that Toyota's business plan is usually conservative, it seems even they are not sure hybrids will take off, and are content to sell them in small numbers and ramp up hybrid models very gradually.

Ford keeps pushing availability dates back and back, GM waffles over what it will do and when, and I do not even remember hearing anything about DCX's future offerings.

john1701a

> it seems even they are not sure hybrids will take off

Not true. They know hybrids will take off.

What they don't know is what the configuration will be.

So they are evolving the technology while at the same time trying to figure out what power/efficiency/size ratio the market prefers.

JOHN

daysailer

>> pollution growth

>By the way, I meant "population".

There's a difference? ;-)

> The aspects that some people had identified as
> shortcomings had been overcome. The new Prius
> fulfills even their criteria.

You do have a knack for overstatement! We don't know what the new Prius fulfills or what has been overcome since it is not yet available and has not been tested. It promises to be a significant improvement and I certainly hope that it is, but it is still in the FUTURE. Your use of the past tense is premature.

Enthusiasm has its place, but not at the expense of objectivity.

john1701a

> objectivity

What more do you want?

The acceleration increase is already documented. It achieves what others have desired: less than 11 seconds 0-60. (10.7 seconds to be precise.)

The size increase is already documented too. People wanted a midsize with a large trunk. That is exactly what the new model delivers. No testing is needed. Just look at the measurements & photos.

The performance increase doesn't need to be measured beyond the EPA numbers, which are now also documented. The new model will deliver MPG above 50. That's enough to fulfill requirements too. Whether it really does achieve a 55 MPG average (50 highway, 60 city) doesn't matter. It's already high enough to clearly outperform all other midsize vehicles by a noticable margin. It even competes dead on with diesels of that size.

The price is also documented already. The no more than $3,000 of a price difference is satisfied. There's not any part of that in question.

What more do you want?

The engineering details clearly show the system has been modified to increase efficiency. Aspects like making the body shape more aerodynamic is a no-brainer. That will obviously help. Changing the A/C to electric is another. The engine is gross overkill to power nothing but the A/C pump when stopped at a light. Using the battery-pack instead is quite a bit more efficient, since only the actual needed power will be drawn instead. The thermal retention system for artifically keeping the catalytic-converter warm (by using already heated liquid) is a bit more complicated, but still easy to understand. As long as the CAT stays warm, the engine doesn't have to start back up (which again is overkill, since just a little heat is needed). Certain components within the engine have been changed to reduce friction & weight, that will help too.

What more do you want?

Are you magically going to change your attitude when the above are all confirmed by real-world data rather than just the testing results?

JOHN

john1701a

I forgot to mention the system has been changed from 273.6 to 500 volts. Electricity transfer at higher voltages is more efficient.

It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to know that nearly doubling the voltage will contribute to the overall efficiency gain in the new model.

JOHN

andys120

over the next few years is pretty gutsy for a conservative company.

I wonder if Honda's Acura DNX (nee Dualnote) is on target for an '05 entry? Real performance in a 40mpg car, that's for me.

nippononly

they cancelled the DNX...

andys120

Say it isn't so. Can you give me something more specific?

daysailer

Objectively measured, independenty verified FACTS, not conjecture. And no, manufacturer's data is not sufficient basis for a $20k+ expenditure, in my view.

And IF a 10.7sec 0-60 time is indeed "precise" and verifiable, it will be a welcome incremental improvement, but insufficient to win a space in my garage, particularly considering its lofty price. Even more important is whether suspension tuning has been improved to surpass the rather low dynamic limits of the present Prius.

john1701a

> considering its lofty price

$20K for a midsize is fairly typical, close to average. So "lofty" seems inappropriate.

> rather low

That's a relative term, not a measurement or a reference to fulfilling need.

JOHN

daysailer

and relative to contemporary cars, the Prius' dynamic limits ARE low. In fact, the present Prius handling limits are lower than some minivans of a more than a decade ago!

john1701a

> are lower than some minivans

Unless you are actually competing with a minivan, what difference does that make?

If the car can avoid the obstacle, the need is fulfilled. More doesn't provide any benefit.

JOHN

daysailer

In daily driving, you ARE "competing" with minivans, SUVs, sedans, sports cars and everything else on the road. It is this population of vehicles that defines the dynamic environment in which you must operate. Minivans as a class are but one notch above SUVs in the dynamic pecking order and below what one can expect of sedans, especially a $20k sedan.

john1701a

> you ARE "competing" with

Believe what you want. But in reality, there is a point of no gain, and we've reached it.

Here in Minnesota over the last 3 years, there simply is no benefit of 4-wheel drive on typical roads. My Prius hasn't ever had any problems while driving through 6 or less inches. And the ability to stop makes no difference either. Where's the benefit of your "superior" vehicle?

The same goes for highway handling. I swerved around a kayak that suddenly appeared while driving at 65 MPH with a bike on back and a full trunk. The Prius managed that without a lick of trouble. What more would I need?

You can only go so fast. The roads can only hold so many vehicles. Risk taking will only save you a few seconds.

Choosing a vehicle that is less likely to rollover and will provide better side-impact protection should be features that make purchase decisions, not squeezing out greater acceleration for driving where you can't (or shouldn't) use that ability anyway.

Believe what you want. The technology isn't intended to serve 100% of everyones requirements anyway. If it can fulfill the needs of a large majority, mission accomplished.

JOHN

daysailer

eventually, but a "large majority" is a pipedream. The Model T may be the only vehicle that ever served a majority of buyers and that was driven by low price, an attribute not shared by the hybrids.

And to limit lateral grip is a very poor approach to create "a vehicle that is less likely to rollover"! That was Ford's approach for their dismal handling Explorer and look what resulted.

To drive a vehicle of very low dynamic limits is more "risk taking" than I'm prepared to accept. Accident mitigation is nice, but collision AVOIDANCE is the first line of defense.

john1701a

> The Model T may be the only vehicle

I said the TECHNOLOGY, not the vehicle.

> but collision AVOIDANCE

Prius is a smaller target and is more nimble than many vehicles on the road. That gives it a clear advantage over a monster SUV attempting the same avoidance manuever. So finding ways to make smaller vehicles, like a practical-size SUV, a minivan, or a large car, more appealing by adding hybrid techonology will draw market attention.

Prius clearly handles what real-world encounters have required from owners. Whether that achieves high ratings in a controlled lab test really doesn't have that much relevance, since those tests exceed requirements (but look great on paper). In other words, don't fall victim to marketing. Each year automakers tell you "more is better". Well after decades of doing that, you've come to expect it even though road conditions have changed very little (if at all). In my area, road conditions are actually better than they were in the past. Now the speed limit matches what people actually attempted to drive in the first place and highways have been expanded (both lanes and alternate routes) to handle the growing population. An assault vehicle is not needed, even though advertisements on television say otherwise. They aren't going to tell you the product they made years ago satisfy your actual needs, they will force the "more is better" thought to get you to buy the newer product. It's all a marketing game. Think about what is really needed. The gimmicks to make their product appear better than the competition is just fluff, providing no actual benefit for real-world encounters.

JOHN

daysailer

In the physical world, perception is not reality. A car may feel "nimble" or quick while being neither. To function in the physical world, where automobiles operate, it matters not how you feel, it only matters what you DO. Perhaps this distinction is lost on a generation raised on video games and "virtual" reality.

Sensations are important as feedback in the control loop, but if they suggest capabilities greater than can actually be delivered by the machine, they can be a liability. Instrumented testing under controlled (and therefore repeatable) conditions can define the ACTUAL limits of reality (and to date, the Prius has not acquitted itself well in such tests). "Seat of the pants" testing and anecdotal experience may be fodder for conversation but are good for little else.

john1701a

> it only matters what you DO

Time and time again I focus on *DO* but that fact continues to be discredited by emphasizing perception instead.

You can't FEEL anything (a sensation) in a Prius. The nimble nature is very disappointing. Yes disappointing, since you can't FEEL the agressive steering ability. (Of course, some people like the smoothness.)

Your eyes see it though! I am in fact able to perform those manuevers. I *DO* it. The same goes for the other owners too. But that continues to be ignored by those that don't even drive a Prius.

When you drive it, you find out firsthand. I've slammed on the brakes at highway speed. I've climbed snowy hills in the winter. I've climbed up small mountains with a loaded interior & trunk. I've swerved around objects in the road suddenly. None of them have ever caused the so-called problems you suggest.

JOHN

daysailer

you must not be DOing anything! A car cannot produce accelerations that are not experienced by the occupants (suspension motions et al notwithstanding), so if you don't FEEL it, it's NOT happening (at least not rapidly enough to notice).

john1701a

> A car cannot produce accelerations that are not
> experienced by the occupants

You obviously haven't been in a Prius.

What is there to feel? Nothing shifts and the RPM remains constant.

When first experienced, it kind of leaves you hanging. You expect the soft thump of an automatic transmission changing. But instead, you get nothing. Then later, the smooooooooth grows on you.

JOHN

daysailer

I forgot that the Prius is not subject to the laws of physics. Silly me!

john1701a

Which law would that be?

It sounds like you are a lawyer.

With 56,300 miles of Prius driving now, I know what I'm talking about. It is remarkably smooth, despite what you claim.

JOHN

nippononly

I drive a Prius every week, and I certainly feel it moving away from a stoplight, and when it stops too! G-force, however slight, can most certainly be felt in this car, just as in any car.

john1701a

> G-force, however slight, can most certainly be
> felt in this car

Yes, but there isn't any feeling produced from mechanical operation, no shifting of any kind despite the fact that motor & engine ratios are changing. That was the point... and still is. Once acceleration begins, feeling remains consistant as speed increases.

JOHN

daysailer

that the present comments were spawned by your statement:

> "......... you can't FEEL the
> agressive steering ability."

what does that "agressive steering ability" accomplish if not lateral acceleration?

> "Your eyes see it though!"

Now THAT is a new twist, in lieu of dynamic performance, we have dynamic imagery! Sounds like a video game to me, or maybe just a vivid imagination.

john1701a

> what does that

Topics rapidly wander here. Not having any type of thread concept on this forum causes that. The nature of posts, especially with titles, make it even worse.

> Now THAT is a new twist

Since when? I've been flying flight simulators since the 80's. My favorite thing to do is to fly using nothing but the instruments, ignoring other data inputs... like sight. Then I'll switch and do the opposite. The result is a very different flight experience.

It is very possible to make driving decisions based on input from alternate sources. If you know the length a turn is, the speed you are traveling at, and the condition of the road, you can determine whether or not you are going to make it... no feeling sensation needed.

Yes, that is very much like a video game. What's your point? Do you just automatically contradict opinions to keep the discussion going?

Some people turn around to verify no one is behind or on their side, other people exclusively rely on mirrors. Either will get the job done.

JOHN

daysailer

that when you said "can't FEEL....", you really mean't "I choose not to feel ....". Interesting how your sensory inputs are switchable.

I don't "automatically" respond to any comments, but statements that are illogical, irational, and or inconsistent with fact are hard to resist.

Enough topic drift, this tread isn't about the Prius.

john1701a

> you really mean't "I choose not to feel ...."

No, twisting words again... you're attempt to mislead won't work.

"from mechanical operation" is still my point.

And once again, there is nothing to feel from that.

This isn't even remotely on topic anymore, so no further acknowledgement will occur. Choose something relevant to the forum to discuss.

JOHN

nippononly

on Toyota hybrids?

:-)