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I just purchased the 2010 Outback 3.6R Limited (which there are not many of in my area) for $900 over invoice. This saved me just over $1500 off MSRP. They were not dealing on these cars at all. When salesman called and said they got one in I went that same morning and almost lost it to another couple who were trying to "negotiate" with another salesman. Sticker price $33,440 – Costco price $31,939.
Oh yea, Graphite Gray / Black leather... nice :shades:
Door to door delivery service is available through reliable, bonded and insured 3rd party transport companies. They would handle all of the import paperwork and deliver your vehicle directly to your home. Of course, it's more fun to pick your new car up in person - and it will save you money, too. Buy your Subaru at Subaru of Keene and Import Trader will deliver it to you anywhere in Canada.
http://www.subaruofkeene.com/international-customers.htm
I'm looking at a 2010 legacy 3.6R limited. MSRP 30227. Hoping to pay around 28,800 or so? They gave me a residual of 54%, a money factor of .0012, on a 36 month, 15K miles/month deal.
Does this seem legit?
I've always had a sunroof in my cars. This one doesn't have one.
While I know you *should* just buy a vehicle with one already installed. I didn't want to wait.
The dealer quoted me $2000 to have one added. Is it better to work through the dealer, or go on my own to find a reputable installer?
What is a fair price to have a roof installed in an Outback?
Does anyone have experience with 'after market' roof installation & the long-term success? (leaks, quality, etc.)
Thank you!
David
Vegas
Can you please provide the April residual & MF for 36 mo/12k Outback 2.5 Premium and 2.5 Limited?
Thanks!
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Re: aftermarket sun roof - I had an aftermarket roof added to my Camry back in '92. It was excellent. The dealer took car of all the details so the price was just rolled into the price of my car (and yes, it was a fair price for the roof - I checked that before I agreed).
Never had any problem with it at all. In at least one respect, it was better than the sunroof that came from the manufacturer, as it would automatically close when I turned off the ignition. Got so used to that, the first evening I had my Jeep (bought after the Camry), I turned off the ignition and went into my apartment building. It rained that night.
And that was how I learned, the next morning, that the Jeep sunroof did NOT automatically close. Oops.
Anyway - just make sure you are doing business with a reputable company, and you should be fine with an aftermarket roof.
We put a power moonroof in our 2002 Legacy L, also. Adler & Mandell put it in, here in MD. It was $1200 for an average sized one. It had one touch open and close, plus you could program it to close when you removed the key, a nice feature.
No leak issues for any of those 4, a small sample though.
There are about a dozen different organizations / groups that participate. For a complete list of organizations / groups check here:
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/subaru_discounts.html
Who knows, you may already belong to one!
Pretty
Is this a decent deal? Looks like they quoted the cars at an invoice price.. any way to get 2% off of that besides joining VIP and waiting 6 months?
They're no-haggle so there's a quick and easy price reference to compare.
Specifically, the invoice for an Outback Premium (PZEV required) supposedly is $360 higher for a New England dealer than indicated by Edmonds.
This developed as I ordered a car under VIP program (been a member of one of the organizations for many years), and got an unpleasant surprise with the $360 greater dealer amount.
Any comments? Anybody able to confirm the higher New England invoice?
Thanks for all responses.
yes, it's correct that PZEV cost about 300.
please see carsdirect.com page.
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=94122&acode=USC00SUC022B0&restor- e=false
PZEV required in some states and I maybe wrong, but you cannot register in CA, NE and other states with PZEV requirement none PZEV car.
The dealer invoice is supposed to be $360 higher WITH the inclusion of PZEV in both comparative cases -- if the invoice is for a New England dealer.
Ex : NY & NJ also require PZEV, but they don't get cars delivered by the same distributor as New England dealers do.
The invoice prices are higher, and also he gets 1% of the 3% holdback for the vehicle. This gives the dealer less profit to deal with. It is not as bad as it was a couple of decades ago when he used to add all kinds of useless options to every vehicle as soon as they came into his hands, and the only choice you had was to take the price or leave it.
Ernie rolled the dice and it paid off handsomely for him, and because of that we pay a little more than everyone else. There is a LOT of wealth in the Boch empire and much of that is due to the chance he took on Subaru.
2010 Outback 2.5i Premium Silver
$24295 MSRP
$300 PZEV
$1000 Automatic Trans CVT 6 speed
$80 Rear Bumper Cover
$129 Splash Guards
$500 All Weather Package
$69 All Weather Floor Mats
$424 Remote Starter
$361 Compartment/Dog Separator
$695 Destination Fee
Total MSRP = $27853 Invoice According to Edmunds = $26014
I told the guy I didn't give a **** about Ernie Boch and his Doc Fee would wash it out. I will pay one extra fee but not two.
Paid $26,000 ( Minus trade in then down payment) and got 2.9% over 60
Picked it up yesterday. Looks great rides great.
Thoughts... Comments?
Car came with Trailer Hitch and Wheel Arch Moldings installed. The window sticker said $30,800.
Had the dealer install Splash Guards and Rear Bumper Cover.
Paid $28,120 + $199 Doc Fee.
Very happy with the buying experience, the car, and the price.
Strongly recommend Subaru of Nashua if you're in the Northern Mass / Southern NH area.
Bob
"bigfrank3" had a very good comment, and I advise anyone in NE to go back and read it. One exception I would note is that Edmonds indicates the dealer holdback is 2%, not 3%. It well could be that other middle men take 1% like Ernie Boch supposedly does, such that it nets out to a basic 2% everywhere. I've heard that there is a distributor in Michigan that has his own power base that might be similar to Ernie Boch, but I don't know if that is true or if it is only rumor.
Something I can add to understanding the situation, is the way salesmen are compensated. I was surprised to learn that SUBARU pays the salesmen a commission, instead of or in addition to, what ever the dealer might pay them. Often the deal is so skinny that the salesman gets nothing from the dealer, and is satisfied with what Subaru pays him. Think about it. A dealer can't possibly sell a car for within $50 of his actual invoice cost (including any incentives, which are rare with Subaru unless they are cleaning out inventory to ready for the new model year) AND pay a salesman a commission, when he has negligible gross profit to work with.
I was wondering if the $360 greater invoice for NE dealers relative to Edmonds was real or BS from the dealer. "bigfrank3" leads me to believe that it really is higher by that amount for NE dealers.
If you are in Vermont, consider crossing the state line to NY to escape the Ernie Boch clutches.
Having said that, most dealers around here (MA) won't let you get into their holdback. That is really the profit on the new vehicle. It is 3% of the retail price, paid to the dealer the vehicle was originally sent to, the one on the sticker, no matter which dealer actually ends up selling it. That is also why they try to sell you what they have on hand first, they know the holdback will follow without waiting for another dealer to sell "their" car after a swap. I believe the holdback is paid quarterly. Swapping is of course a good second choice as opposed to losing a sale.
Out of that 3% Ernie skims 1%, then holds that out as an incentive for volume sales to both the dealer and the salesman. The salesmen and women I know make peanuts on an individual car sale, and that is ok with them. There is a routine ladder of sales that is there for them and they really need to sell more than 10 a month to make a decent paycheck.
On top of all that are periodic incentives put out there from Ernie, usually for the dealer but occasionally for the salesperson too, through the dealer. During those times it is much easier to buy at invoice or below because they have "other" money available to help them close deals. Most of the incentives are for the dealer to move volume because that helps everyone, the dealer, the salesperson, Ernie, and the buyer. Ernie gives a little but as they say, he makes it up in volume. This doesn't happen when the stock is low, only when things get "crowded". The dealer's bonus is that he then can pay less floorplan interest on the total stock he has. There is a fine line between not having enough stock and having too much.
When I planned to buy (ordered) a 3.6R Outback, the deal I got was below the NE invoice, and in fact below the national invoice, again because of incentives to them not the buyer. When I canceled the Outback and bought a Forester they had in stock I bought below invoice because they gave me the 2% holdback also. As you point out, they can't stay in business that way so there was apparently some incentive going on because of the glut of Foresters sitting on the dealer lots. I walked away happy and so did they.
One can get very good deals in NE, you just have to be aware and work at it a little harder. Trading is the biggest struggle because they want to "steal" your vehicle so they can make big profit to pay the help and the electric bill and other business costs. I have sometimes bought the new vehicle at one dealer and sold my "trade-in" to another because they had a specific need for what I had. This worked out to my advantage even with the sales tax credit we get for the trade.
6 mo ago I paid 17,900 on 07 OB Ltd with 30k mi.
Interested in your thoughts
Specifically,
How do you know what the invoice price is (was) for either the Outback that you ordered, or for the Forester ?
That is my basic quandry.
Is there reason to doubt Edmonds ? (good reason or otherwise)
There is the $360 invoice price difference between Edmonds and what a NE dealer tells me.
Also, Edmonds does say that the holdback is 2%. I can't argue that either way, and don't mean to. One possible way to reconcile the 2% with your 3% figure could be that there are Ernie type guys in the middle between SOA and all dealers everywhere in the country, and that they all take 1% of the holdback resulting in the Edmonds 2% number.
I'd like to think that Edmonds has credibility, but you may have information to the contrary.
Another puzzlement : If I order a car (I did), does that order go to SOA or does the order depend on Ernie being willing to include the ordered car in one of his deliveries to the dealer? I was told that dealers have no choice on what Ernie delivers to them, but that an order that is a valid customer order gets treated differently. That supposedly is the only way a dealer can specify even the color of a car to be delivered (a valid customer order). The dealer liked my order because it is a color that they can sell easily and one that they don't get very often. They said, if I wanted to cancel it would be no problem for them because they could easily sell the car that I ordered.
Best,
Ridge8
In the case of the Outback I ordered, I wanted to test the waters with other dealers for deal comparison. I solicited (Internet) about 6 of them and asked for a price, itemized with the options I wanted. 1 didn't answer me, 1 played games, but 4 seemed sincere. Of those 4, 3 did exactly what I asked and itemized everything from invoice and options, up to the total and what they would sell it for. Those 3 showed me the exact same prices for invoice and options, and with 2 the deal was excellent and below cost. Those prices were exactly the same as what my usual dealer showed me. All the invoices were exactly $360 more than Edmunds listed.
I find Edmunds useful but not always exact. An example of this is that here in the SoNE area we cannot buy the packages of options they list, only separately. Almost every car brand has a 3% holdback and my management friends at my usual dealership have assured me that Subaru is the same, but they only get 2% of it, Ernie gets the rest. Don't know why Edmunds lists 2%. Use Edmunds as a guideline but be careful of details. A dealer that won't show you the actual invoices on their vehicles is playing games. Years back I even ran into a dealer that typed up their own invoice to show to customers, and it packed in an extra $400 profit. When I called them on it they then produced the real invoice. They actually offered me a job, saying I knew too much about the business to be sitting on "that" side of the table. I declined. My philosophy is that I want to buy a new vehicle at somewhere between invoice and $300 over, I don't ask for any of their holdback so they can stay in business.
If you order a vehicle in the SoNE area it automatically comes out of what Ernie has already ordered out of his 6 month "order allocation" from SOA, assuming he ordered one exactly like it. If it is not on the "list" you cannot get it. What DOES happen though is that vehicle gets assigned a "sold tag" and gets moved up in the order sequence at SOA. Sold vehicles get built before vehicles just for stock. It still may take a while because of everyone else's "sold" vehicles as well as what SOA is currently set up to manufacture (model, options, color, etc.). When your vehicle is guaranteed to be built it will get a VON (vehicle order number) and that will be passed to the dealer. When it is actually being built it will get the VIN.
Dealers generally have no say in what Ernie sends them for stock, but he bases it on volume. Dealers like to "move" vehicles because that means Ernie will give them more to have on the lot for the next allocation. Low volume dealers have the least stock and therefore choice to the customer. All dealer stock in the SoNE area is fair game for each other so it is almost like 1 big car lot, just spread out. Because some stock is like gold compared to others some dealers will play games so another dealer cannot take a particular vehicle. They may say it is under agreement, or try to get a hundred or 2 from the dealer for their trouble. Of course, that cost gets passed on to the customer.
My dealer did the same as yours, ordered my vehicle and told me I didn't have to take it if it took too long. They knew it would be a long time because it was a 3.6R Premium. After 3 months and fearing the steering wheel shimmy I had experienced and read about, with no apparent clear fix, I chose to go with another Forester instead. By my Outback being a "sold" vehicle it gave them another car for stock or dealing with others. When it finally came in (about 4 months) they easily swapped it to another dealer who had a buyer for the rare 3.6. Everyone ended up happy.
Hope this is helpful. Good luck!
I went thru consumber report pricing service, which I think was 15 dollars for /yr suubscription. It use to be 40 for 3 months. Though all the price stuff... invoice.. u may find dealer to match consumber report , which suby in george town , tx.. did for us. I think the bottom line is if the sales & manager willing to sales at lost.. the main money they do makes is from the quarterly bonus. which is more the 1 or 2 hundres profits...
good luck
vp
That is helpful confirmation -- especially the consistent $360 over Edmonds' invoice.
With my VIP deal (been a member of the organization for many years) I suggested that the 2% below dealer invoice amounted to them passing on the holdback to my deal. The manager said "that's exactly right". What do they get out of doing it? Subaru pays participating dealers an undisclosed fee for processing the transaction. I know of several specific dealers that will not participate in Subaru's VIP program. In my case a salesman wrote up the order, and they told me he gets no commission, but that he does get credit for a unit sold to add to his monthly total for what ever the bonus or threshold commission might amount to.
Biggest surprise for me was to learn that the dealer pays very little, and sometimes no commission at all, to the salesman. Subaru pays the salesmen a commission -- instead of the dealership !
Another question, if you are inclined, or have the time:
What do you suppose Ernie adds to the situation? The NE situation amounts to what is called "two stage distribution", and that is widely recognized as highly inefficient these days. Micheal Dell even went one step further with his direct to consumer concept. That quite obviously will never be practical for automobiles as it has with computers because some amount of dealer prep will be needed, but I can think of no good reason for having a distributor in between Subaru/Indiana (for Outbacks & Legacies) and the dealers. Maybe it has something to do with a boat load of Foresters from Japan coming in to a port in Rhode Island.
It is good getting to know you.
All the best for everything,
Ridge8
Remember that the name of the game in the car business is volume. Dealers don't mind selling SOME vehicles with no profit as long as they don't lose money. Whether it is a VIP deal where they get reimbursed for their "trouble" or selling a vehicle that has not been floorplanned yet, such as an ordered vehicle, it helps get their volume up. This allows the dealer to get more support money and more vehicles to sell in the future. A General Manager friend of mine always told me he didn't mind selling to me at cost (ordered vehicles) because he would make it up on the "next guy", and mine were easy sales, tying up no one but me and him. He always said the volume was much more important to him because it gave him better status which allowed him to have a higher priority on getting stock to sell.
Salespeople live off the bonus checks, again based on volume. They might get "x" for 5 sales but they also might get "3x" for 10 sales, so it is non-linear. The joke on some of my deals was that the salesperson's payment for this particular car amounted to a ham sandwich. Even then they still appreciated getting one more sale for their monthly volume quota.
I am not sure that the salesperson actually gets a check from Subaru, especially in NE where it probably would be SoNE, but it is just semantics because the bonus money flows from the top and trickles down to the salesperson. Of course the dealership gets non-linear bonuses too. Again, it is all volume. Even Ernie makes more money and gets treated better with higher volume. Car manufacturing companies would be nothing without people moving their product, at all levels, so that is where the incentive is.
Ernie adds nothing to the situation, he gets in the way most of the time. No one would design a system like that today, but remember, 40 years ago or so the Japanese brands wanted to get a foothold over here, BADLY. The vehicles weren't all that popular and most weren't all that good. None were built in this country, all shipped over. Even Subarus of the 70's turned to swiss cheese before your eyes. I remember years ago when my wife needed a cheap car while she was going to school, and she bought an old and well-used Subaru GL wagon. It ran very well but it was a "Flintstone" car, no floor to speak of. It was only a "car" because of all the rust holding hands.
Subaru wanted to get into the US market but were having a hard time finding someone who would take a chance on them. Ernie stepped up, and for his trouble he got a lifetime exclusive contract for his enterprise, for all the NE area. It took a LOT of years before his gamble paid off, but his vision and risk-taking helped make him very wealthy today. Subaru couldn't get out of the deal even if they wanted to today. Him being in the way doesn't help you and me, but I applaud him for what he did when no one else wanted the deal.
The fact that some Subarus are now built here changes the business model but has no bearing on his exclusive contract. The contract today is not for Subaru's benefit, but it was "in the beginning".
Regards,
Frank
SOA so far have been unable to identify and fix the problem consistently.
I am not going to go into detail, or the longevity of the problem, the forums documenting this issue are easy to find.
To their credit, SOA has been working hard, but it seems they don't know definitively what causes it. At least so far they have failed to make public any conclusions they may have. This has resulted in buybacks of un-fixable cars.
You should know that buybacks are a last resort and manufactures would rather walk through fire than do this.
Some owners have invoked the lemon law, SOA acknowledges the issue, but so far have failed to make a public statement or issue a TSB.
I would love to buy an OB, but as of today, this issue is unresolved and ongoing on the latest cars off the production line.
It's beyond unreasonable to expect a buyer to put down $30k when you know some products are leaving the factory with a defect.
Having to go through the anxiety, inconvenience and pain of multiple dealership visits with potentially no resolution, even after replacing most of the front end, is ridiculous.
Word is getting to the dealers now, however some are unaware or in denial.
SOA are being fairly transparent, but they need to come out and make a statement on this, and issue a TSB and a guaranteed remedy. Until then, put me down with the many others who can't buy.
Just picked up the car today. 2.5i limited
MSRP - $29985. (moonroof)
Selling price - $ 27496
Doc. fee- $125 + $139 (license fee)
Tax (6.25%) - $458 (due to trade in)
Total drive out - $28218.
Dealer also added splash guards, and bumper guard at no extra charge.
Awesome experience at West Houston Subaru in Houston, Texas.
MSRP 29,595
Invoice 27,661
paid 27,431
factory options were bumper cover, all weather mats, wheel locks, and popular package 1b (shock sensor and mirror w/homelink). Also had the media hub installed for $478; not great but works well enough.
with tax, title, media hub, etc, OTD was 28587.98. Happy with the car after one weekend with a lot of driving.
Out of curiosity, which dealership? I think there are 7 in the DC area.
You live in a perfect location though, being in Minneapolis. There is no place in the US that is very far from you. If you want to save some money, consider traveling a little. There are many places, including Washington, Colorado, and Pennsylvania/Maryland, where these vehicles can be obtained for invoice or below. You just have to be flexible and find someone who wants to sell you a car.
Eligibility for the Subaru VIP Partners Program after six months of being a member, helping you save as much as $3,300 when you purchase or lease a new Subaru, options included for this discount.
I have the membership of "leave no trace". The dealer offers me a price of $28,966 for 2011 2.5i limited outback with moonroof package. This doesn't sound right to me. As I know, the invoice price for 2010 outback with moonroof is only $28,316. With 2% of invoice price, the price should be $27,750. Even with the price hike for 2011 outback, it cannot be that high. Does $28,966 sound right to you?
Thanks
About the 2011 2.5i ltd outback with moonroof, the dealer in minneapolis told us it will be a $220 increase in price, but the car you are looking at may have more accessories (backup camera, etc). The other feature is the foldable mirror, also more color option (red etc). Thanks.