Leased an 02'Passat. I average 25 to 30K annually, and spend a lot of time between cities. Had new coils installed in 03' at no cost or real inconvenience. During the past 58k miles of ownership, not one burp, sqeak, nothing. Got great mileage and really enjoyed the car. I did not opt to get another 04' 1.8 as I like to change around, but damn well will be watching the new Passats for the next go around. Thanks to this board. Thanks VW. Great car, and I do miss it.
Hi, I have a 2001.5 Passat that has had many problems. If you are considering this vehicle try the Acura TSX or Infiniti GX 35 sedan. The reliability of these vehicles is far above that of the Passat. All you have to do is look at the " POSTS" in the Passat area and compare them to that of these two vehicle. The Passat posts show major problems while the other two vehicles listed have minor issues. German engineering has gone Downhill!!!
I have had fantastic service from several VWs. My present car is a Seat Toledo TDiSe. It was actually made in the VW factory in Belgium. Absolutely superb car. Incredibly reliable. Have done 95,000 miles in it from new and it never lets me down. A lovely looking car in dark " Indigo " blue. I hope to do three times the present miliage in it.
I had an 02 jetta vr6 for about 1 and a half years, 16000 miles. brought it back to the shop at least 6 times for a variety of problems: radio died twice, squeaks and rattles all over the dash, window that refused to go back up on occasion, engine that refused to start on occasion, rear speakers that sound like they contained angry insects, even when the radio wasn't turned on, even after they "replaced them," and, the engine coils that i waited 2 and a half months to replace. the final blow was by the shop, which never called me back when they said they would, on several occasions (probably because they're constantly backed up with tons of complaints). I eventually got rid of it for a toyota, without the coils or the second radio replaced because they never called me back.
It makes a great difference where a particular VW is made.
I would prefer a European made VW. I definitely don't want to be political, that is not I. If a particular assembly has militant strikes, then the cars won't be good. That is all I am saying.
Well, my Golf has been nothing but problems starting around 50k miles. I'll give a few examples: - driver door lock, trunk door lock and then ignition lock had to be replaced... - dashboard light (above speedometer and tachometer) went out. Replacement: $300 something - CEL came on more times than I can count. Changed a couple items - bearing on fan went out, so the whole fan had to be replaced - the computer unit was changed under warranty - alternator had to be changed
I'm at 118k miles and the automatic transmission is starting to slip. I'm keeping the car for another few months, will unload it for cheap and will buy an Accord. Needless to say, I'd never buy a VW again.
Food for thought: to get my VW repaired, I always to call in advance to make an appointment as the service department was always busy. For my Honda, I could drop the car pretty much anytime.
I suggest to prospective VW buyers to go visit the service department at 8:00 am to get an idea of the car reliability.
Very nice car, I'd personally say - ideal to me. Excellently designed, beautiful, comfy, adequately powered, I love AWD and heated seats/mirrors that make my life in winters so much easier and its cheerful light 'tea with cream' colored interior. It also has several features that I got used to which I couldn't find in any other car I've seen, even those much more expensive ones. For instance, the adjustable central armrest. I especially looked for the similar design of it at MANY cars shown at Chicago Auto Show this year, couldn't find the one that would be as comfy as the Passat's thingy. I've got the car in the end of '01 with 5K miles, now it is close to 35K. Never had any mechanical, electrical or other major problem (knocking on its interior's real wood ;-) ). It still has that incredible new car smell (of course, I never ever smoke in it). Minor concerns are not all that great mileage (with current gas prices it becomes noticeable) and the necessity to add about half quart of oil in the middle of every 5K miles service interval. I sure hope to have this gem for many more years to come.
Just wanted to add that little and rare 'happy camper' note to the board.
That some folks feel that having to replace a few parts to get over 100K miles is a "problem".
My goodness, it was not that long ago that just getting 60K miles from ANY vehicle was a tough job.
These folks may be disapointed when they discover that there is no such thing as a perfect machine. All vehicles will require some maintenance as they go over 60K miles.
I have owned several Hondas and many VWs over the years. The Hondas are booorrring as a pet rock while the VWs are always a joy to drive. They have all required replacement parts once they got over 60K miles....It is just the nature of the machine.
My German made GTI (with the 2.0 engine) has been as problematic as any others here (starter, catalytic converter, fuel pump, window regulator, MAF, rattles all over the place, squeaking suspensions....). That 'European-made-cars-are-better' is just a cliché, and a sad one at that.
Automotive News for 5/3/04 cites the Reader's Digest Most Trusted Brands Survey in which Volkswagen has overtaken Mercedes as the most trusted brand in Germany. I understand that surveys have their limitations but this does square with my own personal experience of Euro-built VeeDubs and Audis.
I had a 2000 Passat that never had a single problem - traded it for an 03 Jetta diesel wagon that has also been perfect for a year and a half. I made the mistake of test driving the new Passat diesel wagon and am now planning on selling the Jetta wagon for the Passat. The only complaint I have with the Jetta is a little too small for my needs - not the car's fault.
My VW experience from the cars to the dealer has been nothing but positive.
and they are all made in Germany. I know for a fact that people in Europe are being annoyed with quality problems on VWs as well. VWs sales are not stellar to say the least. VW has had numerous issues inherent to its Mark IV platform, regardless of where the cars were assembled. Blaming on the origin is petty at best.
Before my present excellent Seat Toledo TDiSE, I had VWs made in South Africa. They were excellent cars. I only meant, that if there are militant strikes at assembly points, the assembly will be affected. In no way am I being political or putting one country before another. I certainly never meant to and I apologise for any misunderstanding. I travel round quite a bit and I love many countries.
at their factories in Mexico and Brazil, which rank lowest in quality. I suspect it's a problem of management, suppliers or both (as in management of suppliers).
...doesn't seem to have too much success with their foreign plants. Anybody remember the debacle in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania? I think part of the movie "Gung Ho" was based on this venture - substituting VW with a fictional Japanese automaker.
It isn't just VW that has had troubles with plants outside Germany. Mercedes-Benz and BMW have had severe quality problems with their US plants.
I have to wonder how Mercedes-Benz will do with its new intention to open an assembly plant in China? And I wonder how VW has done quality wise in Beijing as well.
My Golf TDI GLS was made in Brazil but I think the build quality is as good as other VWs. I asked a tech at the dealer what model has caused the most problems. He said it was the New Beetle convertible.
VW seems to have a handle on the build quality and cosmetics, even with Mexican and Brasilian-built models. The integrity of the bodies, the electrical systems, and the mechanical components are another matter entirely.
Ironically, those are the same areas in which Mercdes-Benz and BMW have had troubles with outside-Germany built cars. VW contracts a lot of subsassembly work - I suspect M-B and BMW do as well - and that they're not as adept at production logistics as the Japanese automakers are -- Toyota, Honda and Nissan have had no trouble producing solid-quality cars in almost any part of the world, which points to the problem with the German automakers being in the entire production process -- not just the assembly plant.
This discussion has morphed into the construct of people offering various opinions about VW's overall quality and reliability. Which is WRONG, because there are FACTS AND RATINGS to give this some REAL data.
Your *personal* experience with VWs is just that. You're all guilty of letting that *personal* experience cloud judgement. Read this article from USA Today, May 11, 2004 about the quality problems VW is experiencing and their restructuring of personnel to fix them:
Note that VW quality ratings (JD Power) have fallen 15% in the last year alone and that they are now ranked 36th out of 37 global auto manufacturers. And that this slide occurred while the industry AVERAGE quality index went UP 11%.
Also note that the three-year JDP rankings shows VW at 33rd ranking (of 37).
Also note that the Beetle, Golf and Jetta have all fallen off CR's recommended lists this year based on poor quality.
And note the comment that although VW has brought in quality gurus to fix the products, their own management comments that it's "too late" for the upcoming Passat and Jetta redesigns.
The FACTS show that these cars are poorer in quality than whatever is in 37th place (Citroen?).
I'm super-bummed because I've been wanting a Passat for five years now. But the FACTS clearly show that I'd be an idiot to buy one.
REAL nice, actually. For the money, I don't think you can beat 'em.
However, you'd better have much more money ready for repairs. I was a victim of VW junk ('96 Jetta Trek), and never again, but what a nice driving car.
If any friends or family talk cars with me, I tell them that quality-wise everything is pretty much equal... except VW and Kia. As much as I wish I just had my personal anecdote to go on, I know a VW salesdude and he says it's ridiculous how many brand new cars are towed back. Last time I talked to him he had a half-dozen brand new Passats and Jettas towed back the previous week. Luckily for him he also sells Nissan.
(makakio) This topic is EXPECTED to be personal experience. Anyone that can read has the oppertunity to review the numerous "FACTS AND RATINGS"
Personally, I maintain that most of the "FACTS AND RATINGS" are just a small part of the larger picture that one needs to considerd when deciding on an approprate vehicle to purchase.
Most of those "FACTS AND RATINGS" are biased. I am not going to re-hash why this is true but suffice to say the they are NOT totally accurate.
"JD powers" attempts to quantify INITIAL QUALITY which has virtually nothing to do with reliability, drivability, customer satisfaction or personal preference.
"Consumer Reports" simply polls its readers for data.... thus the cross-section of datapoints is limited to those folks that beleive CR is worthy of having a subscription. (Cant get much more bised than that!)
If you want a Passat, get one and enjoy a long relationship with your wonderful German roadcar.
I trust that you realize that a USED car is very often more reliable than a NEW one? (all of the problems have been isolated and corrected)
I don't think JD powers or Consumer Reports are perfect, and I agree that JD powers initial quality survey is a joke, however, there seems to be a definite negative trend with regards to VWs and these types of ratings and surveys. It isn't just one source that has negative things to say about VW. The negativity seems to be pretty much universal.
I don't think any publication, website, or user's forum is out to get VW.
JD Powers also performs a three-year quality survey, based on dealer service department info (read the article) which is a more reliable study than their Initial Quality study - and as I stated shows that VW is ranked 33rd out of 37 mfgrs and falling like a rock.
I would assume that readers and supporters of Consumer Reports would likewise stress the importance of Quality and Reliability, be it a car or a washing machine. I would therefore then think that the data which CR collects is actually a good indicator of the buying publics' experiences with product quality and reliability, not just "biased" data. I would think this is actually pertinent data - and that those not reporting are LESS concerned with quality and reliability (ie: ostrich-head-in-sand syndrome).
Further, as I mentioned in this post, I understand that this topic is about personal experience, but a majority of these posts have been back and forth bantering about personal experience relating to the brand's overall quality and reliability and I am simply interjecting some FACTUAL information about that particular topic matter.
As to people having access to factual information - isn't this what Edmund's is for? Where else should we post factual information - even if it's information you may not want to read? As a site that stresses knowledge, I think that buyers should KNOW about VW's horrible quality and reliability ratings. I see people driving new VWs around every day. Think they would continue to buy these cars if they had the data (apparently, a full quarter of previous VW owners aren't even returning to the brand these days - yep, that's int he article too).
As to bias - show me a better study of product quality and reliability than CR and JDP. I'm not maintaining they're perfect, but ther ARE the standard and as such they used the same data to compare apples to apples. If 33 of 37 auto manufacturers are building cars with higher levels of quality and reliability (over three years) than VW, then where's your dig on the data? Those cars HAVE higher quality and reliability. They don't use a different yardstick for each brand.
I am glad you are open to discuss this. It is ironic you ask me where my logic is when I am a computer programmer by trade and am trained in electronics too. (logic is how I make my living 8-)
Let me answer you like this.... I drove many vehicles with an open mind and ended up at the Jetta. (The Nissan Altima a close second) I put well over 15 months of research into replacing my 12-year old 4X4 Cvic wagon. (Which, by the way, was rusting terribly)
Given my criteria for a vehicle, the Jetta was clearly the only vehicle on the market that met my needs. I view reliability as somthing that can be FIXED by replacing the faulty parts.
Things like a preponderance to RUST, harsh ride, poor handling, boooring to drive...etc CANNOT be easilly corrected after purchase.
Thus, the VWs 12-year/unlimited-milage warantee was the biggest attractor for me. Also the handling is unmatched by anything else in the pricerange. VW also has significantly more QUALITY materials in the same pricerange. (Quality is NOT reliability)
I dont know how to say it any clearer.... There are other things besides RELIABILITY that are more important. These other things cannot be easilly put into a table and compared numerically or with a graph.
I find it almost humerous that some of these "facts" you refer to seem to define "QUALITY" in some nebulus way so it can be measured numerically.
In my book, QUALITY is a dashboard material that can last 15 years without discoloring or cracking. It is switches and controls that feel good when operated and last 15 years. It is a thick layer of rubber sprayed on the entire underside of the vehicle. It is the finest Michelin tires available INSTALLED FROM THE FACTORY. It is things that other manufacturers leave out to save a buck.... but you wish were there after 50K miles.
I wonder how many vehicles you have owned that even WENT over 150K miles? One has not owned a vehicle long enoungh until one has FIXED all the initial little assembly problems.
out - I write reports and testify in lemon law cases, many of them VW cases.
If you'd like to set aside personal opinions (which I happen to value strongly), and survey information (which is borderline useless as far as I'm concerned), I'll be glad to throw out some information based on 4,789 lemon law cases that I've been involved with in just over 3 years - 697 were VW.
BTW..did I mention that I get about 53 MPG on my Jetta. On the current tank of fuel, the tripmeter reads around 200 miles and I am almost down to 3/4 full.
Yes folks, the TDI can approach 800 miles per tank of fuel. Not even those silly hybreds can match that.
the ignition coil problem generated quite a few cases, but there were many cases around involving fuel systems, other engine management problems, transmission failures, HVAC issues, and of course, major oil consumption problems.
While every other manufacturer that sells vehicles in the US says burning a quart of oil in 2,000-3,000 miles is pushing it, but sort of OK, VW stands firm that their cars can burn a quart every thousand and it's not a problem - boggles my mind.
(bjbird2) I came across this "oil consumption" issue during my research (I did meintion i spent about a year researching;-)
The info I uncoverend about this was related to the 2.0L engine. Apparently, if not broken in with enough 'gusto', the piston rings do not seat and one ends up with an oil-burning engine. Given enough miles and proper care, even one of these oil-burners will heal itself as the rings finally seat in. DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL DURING BREAK-IN!!
It is vitally important that during break-in of an engine, one uses occasional bursts of full-throttle accelleration followed by decelleration. This is easilly done on the freeway by going from 50MPH up to 70MPH then getting off the throttle and allow speed to come back down. NEVER use cruse-control during break-in of an engine.
The easiest way to make an oil-burning engine is to take a brand-new engine, put in synthetic oil and go for a long trip at highway speeds using the cruze-control.
Before someone asks why VW seems to have this issue... I can only assume that VWs manufacturing process combined with SUPER-HARD ring-material makes their engines more susceptable to poor break-in habits. (SUPER-HARD rings are harder to break in... but make for a long-lasting engine that does not lose power after 150K miles or so.)
Again... I view this as better QUALITY than most other vehicles in the same pricerange. A QUALITY vehicle is designed to go the distance.
with some of the above information, break-in practices have NEVER come up in any arbitration or trial I've been to involving the VW oil consumption issue (over 60 hearings).
If this was a smokiung gun that was the owner's fault, you can bet your bottom dollar that VW would've taken the owners apart on this to avoid paying in court.
Also for reference, I don't see many 2.0 oil consumption cases and NO VR6 cases - 98% are 1.8 and 1.8T.
"The easiest way to make an oil-burning engine is to take a brand-new engine, put in synthetic oil and go for a long trip at highway speeds using the cruze-control."
Funny. I put synthetic in my Protege right away when it was new and took it on a long road trip. It didn't burn oil when I sold it with 30K miles on it. Synthetic is factory fill on many cars, and any car that uses 5w20 has "semi-synthetic" from the factory.
"Also for reference, I don't see many 2.0 oil consumption cases and NO VR6 cases - 98% are 1.8 and 1.8T."
1.8 AND 1.8T? I didn't know VW sold the naturally aspirated 1.8L here in the US.
of the mechanics, shop owners, and engineers who frequent here (Opatience and sscwhrad come to mind) (and me) and they'll tell you NOT to install synthetic immediately on a non-synthetic mandated engine - wait until 3,000-5,000 miles - synthetics do not offer enough friction to seat the rings properly.
I've heard it all and I think it's baloney. There are also engineers that say it doesn't matter. Like I said, I switched to synthetic when my Protege had 300 miles on it and I didn't have any problems in 30,000 miles. The engine ran great, got good mileage, and didn't burn oil. I don't see where the harm was done. I think if there were going to be problems, they would've cropped up within 30K.
This is great info. I knew about the ignitor-coil issues with this Audi engine.
It is interesting that I have never before heard about the 1.8T consuming oil. Therfore I cannot suggest any reasons for this.
I am beginning to think that a lot of VWs engine-woes have been with the 1.8T Audi engine. Ill bet there are some serious discussions about the decesion to use an Audi engine in a VW.
I have owned at least 5 VWs over the years and they all went well over 150K miles. (This was with the 1.5L, 1.6L, 1.8L that matured into todays 2.0)
I changed to Mobil 1 5W-40 after 5000 miles on my 2002 1.8T, and I've never had an oil consumption problem. I've never had to add oil between changes. I did not baby the car on break-in, in fact just the opposite, I drove it rather hard. I think this problem may be on a small number of VW's, because I've never heard it before on any of the websites or forums.
I'm interested buying a new 2004 Jetta TDI but after reading some of the horror stories here about the recent 98-03 models I'm starting to reconsider. Has anyone had any problems with the 2004 models or know anyone who has? (ie, windows dropping into doors, coils, sluggish speed after rainy weather, etc).
The TDI does not have coils. It is a DIESEL. The window-regulator problem was addressed and corrected many years ago. I am not sure what you mean by "sluggish speed after rainy weather", that sounds like the coil problem which, again, cannot affect the TDI.
HOWEVER, Keep in mind that starting in 2004, the TDI now has pump-duse injection. This engine REQUIRES VW 505.01 speced. oil. In the USA, this oil is only available at VW dealerships.
Basically, since North America is lagging about 5 years behind Europe when it comes to diesel technology, we do not have the proper FUEL for a modern diesel engine. The Feds have mandated that we will get the ELSD (Extreemly Low Sulpher Diesel) fuel by the year 2005.
Check out the VW TDI forum here on edmunds for more specific info.
Thank you for the reply. Although I didn't state it in my first post, I was also considering the 1.8T model thats why I was asking about the coils etc. In your opinion do you think the 2004's will be more reliable?
"(bpeeples)I was also considering the 1.8T model thats why I was asking about the coils etc. In your opinion do you think the 2004's will be more reliable?
The coilpacks were an issue with 1.8T & VR6 engines from 2001-02. This was due to a bad run from the supplier (compromised dielectric IIRC). The falling window syndrome has been remedied as has the MAF sensor. These all had high failure rates for a limited time. The high failure rate problems listed have extended warranties (7yr./70K mi.) and are not an issue with newer models.
I have my doubts concerning high oil consumption on the 1.8T's. I have 50,000 on mine and it uses NO oil. In fact, I run 0-30 Mobil 1 in the winter and it uses no oil between changes (5K). I also keep informed with VW interest websites and have not heard of 1.8T engines consuming oil. ?????
You never answered my question about the naturally aspirated 1.8L engine. IIRC, the last NA 1.8L in a US VW was in the 80s.
"These all had high failure rates for a limited time."
Limited time as in years? Didn't it take VW a couple model years to fix those problems? IIRC, the window problem didn't get fixed until 2002 or 2003 and the current Jetta was introduced in 1999.
"Limited time as in years? Didn't it take VW a couple model years to fix those problems? IIRC, the window problem didn't get fixed until 2002 or 2003 and the current Jetta was introduced in 1999."
Yes, limited time as in years. And, yes it did take a couple model years to fix some of these problems. But you have to remember that these 'problems' didn't become 'problematic' until a level of failure rate was reached and this takes time.
IMHO, VW did not respond fast enough and at least some of this delay is due to their arrogance - and they will pay dearly for it.
You wrote: "NOT to install synthetic immediately on a non-synthetic mandated engine."
Interesting. So, if I stick with the VW recommended viscosity of 5w-40, which in North America (and possibly the world) only comes in synthetic format, you're pretty much telling me that the rings won't seat properly? OR, does that recommendation of 5w-40 actually mean that the 1.8T engine is, in reality, a synthetic-mandated engine?
I'm sorry, but I testify in court for a living - I'm used to getting my words picked apart by defense lawyers - I'm not going to do it here.
newcar - how about we use gasoline engines, except the VR6 - this oil consumption issue, for purposes of breach of warranty lawsuits, dates back to the mid-80s.
altair - it wasn't your conversation and you evidently didn't read his post - he was referring to a Mazda product, not VW. Go with whatever oil your owner's manual indicates.
I just haven't heard of a NA VW 1.8L in a long time in the US and the one in the 80's isn't anywhere near the same engine as the 1.8T.
The NA 1.8L that the US saw is so old I don't even think it's fair to bring it up. IIRC, the NA 1.8L was the standard engine before the 2.0L. That was a LONG time ago.
Comments
German engineering has gone Downhill!!!
the final blow was by the shop, which never called me back when they said they would, on several occasions (probably because they're constantly backed up with tons of complaints). I eventually got rid of it for a toyota, without the coils or the second radio replaced because they never called me back.
From what I've read the dealer network in Europe is a lot better and more responsive as well.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I would prefer a European made VW. I definitely don't want to be political, that is not I. If a particular assembly has militant strikes, then the cars won't be good. That is all I am saying.
- driver door lock, trunk door lock and then ignition lock had to be replaced...
- dashboard light (above speedometer and tachometer) went out. Replacement: $300 something
- CEL came on more times than I can count. Changed a couple items
- bearing on fan went out, so the whole fan had to be replaced
- the computer unit was changed under warranty
- alternator had to be changed
I'm at 118k miles and the automatic transmission is starting to slip. I'm keeping the car for another few months, will unload it for cheap and will buy an Accord. Needless to say, I'd never buy a VW again.
Food for thought: to get my VW repaired, I always to call in advance to make an appointment as the service department was always busy. For my Honda, I could drop the car pretty much anytime.
I suggest to prospective VW buyers to go visit the service department at 8:00 am to get an idea of the car reliability.
I've got the car in the end of '01 with 5K miles, now it is close to 35K. Never had any mechanical, electrical or other major problem (knocking on its interior's real wood ;-) ). It still has that incredible new car smell (of course, I never ever smoke in it).
Minor concerns are not all that great mileage (with current gas prices it becomes noticeable) and the necessity to add about half quart of oil in the middle of every 5K miles service interval.
I sure hope to have this gem for many more years to come.
Just wanted to add that little and rare 'happy camper' note to the board.
My goodness, it was not that long ago that just getting 60K miles from ANY vehicle was a tough job.
These folks may be disapointed when they discover that there is no such thing as a perfect machine. All vehicles will require some maintenance as they go over 60K miles.
I have owned several Hondas and many VWs over the years. The Hondas are booorrring as a pet rock while the VWs are always a joy to drive.
They have all required replacement parts once they got over 60K miles....It is just the nature of the machine.
villa
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
My VW experience from the cars to the dealer has been nothing but positive.
villa
I only meant, that if there are militant strikes at assembly points, the assembly will be affected. In no way am I being political or putting one country before another. I certainly never meant to and I apologise for any misunderstanding. I travel round quite a bit and I love many countries.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I have to wonder how Mercedes-Benz will do with its new intention to open an assembly plant in China? And I wonder how VW has done quality wise in Beijing as well.
Ironically, those are the same areas in which Mercdes-Benz and BMW have had troubles with outside-Germany built cars. VW contracts a lot of subsassembly work - I suspect M-B and BMW do as well - and that they're not as adept at production logistics as the Japanese automakers are -- Toyota, Honda and Nissan have had no trouble producing solid-quality cars in almost any part of the world, which points to the problem with the German automakers being in the entire production process -- not just the assembly plant.
Your *personal* experience with VWs is just that. You're all guilty of letting that *personal* experience cloud judgement. Read this article from USA Today, May 11, 2004 about the quality problems VW is experiencing and their restructuring of personnel to fix them:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-05-11-vw_x.htm?POE=click- -refer
AND THEN:
Note that VW quality ratings (JD Power) have fallen 15% in the last year alone and that they are now ranked 36th out of 37 global auto manufacturers. And that this slide occurred while the industry AVERAGE quality index went UP 11%.
Also note that the three-year JDP rankings shows VW at 33rd ranking (of 37).
Also note that the Beetle, Golf and Jetta have all fallen off CR's recommended lists this year based on poor quality.
And note the comment that although VW has brought in quality gurus to fix the products, their own management comments that it's "too late" for the upcoming Passat and Jetta redesigns.
The FACTS show that these cars are poorer in quality than whatever is in 37th place (Citroen?).
I'm super-bummed because I've been wanting a Passat for five years now. But the FACTS clearly show that I'd be an idiot to buy one.
However, you'd better have much more money ready for repairs.
If any friends or family talk cars with me, I tell them that quality-wise everything is pretty much equal... except VW and Kia. As much as I wish I just had my personal anecdote to go on, I know a VW salesdude and he says it's ridiculous how many brand new cars are towed back. Last time I talked to him he had a half-dozen brand new Passats and Jettas towed back the previous week. Luckily for him he also sells Nissan.
Personally, I maintain that most of the "FACTS AND RATINGS" are just a small part of the larger picture that one needs to considerd when deciding on an approprate vehicle to purchase.
Most of those "FACTS AND RATINGS" are biased. I am not going to re-hash why this is true but suffice to say the they are NOT totally accurate.
"JD powers" attempts to quantify INITIAL QUALITY which has virtually nothing to do with reliability, drivability, customer satisfaction or personal preference.
"Consumer Reports" simply polls its readers for data.... thus the cross-section of datapoints is limited to those folks that beleive CR is worthy of having a subscription. (Cant get much more bised than that!)
If you want a Passat, get one and enjoy a long relationship with your wonderful German roadcar.
I trust that you realize that a USED car is very often more reliable than a NEW one? (all of the problems have been isolated and corrected)
I don't think any publication, website, or user's forum is out to get VW.
I would assume that readers and supporters of Consumer Reports would likewise stress the importance of Quality and Reliability, be it a car or a washing machine. I would therefore then think that the data which CR collects is actually a good indicator of the buying publics' experiences with product quality and reliability, not just "biased" data. I would think this is actually pertinent data - and that those not reporting are LESS concerned with quality and reliability (ie: ostrich-head-in-sand syndrome).
Further, as I mentioned in this post, I understand that this topic is about personal experience, but a majority of these posts have been back and forth bantering about personal experience relating to the brand's overall quality and reliability and I am simply interjecting some FACTUAL information about that particular topic matter.
As to people having access to factual information - isn't this what Edmund's is for? Where else should we post factual information - even if it's information you may not want to read? As a site that stresses knowledge, I think that buyers should KNOW about VW's horrible quality and reliability ratings. I see people driving new VWs around every day. Think they would continue to buy these cars if they had the data (apparently, a full quarter of previous VW owners aren't even returning to the brand these days - yep, that's int he article too).
As to bias - show me a better study of product quality and reliability than CR and JDP. I'm not maintaining they're perfect, but ther ARE the standard and as such they used the same data to compare apples to apples. If 33 of 37 auto manufacturers are building cars with higher levels of quality and reliability (over three years) than VW, then where's your dig on the data? Those cars HAVE higher quality and reliability. They don't use a different yardstick for each brand.
Where's your logic?
Let me answer you like this.... I drove many vehicles with an open mind and ended up at the Jetta. (The Nissan Altima a close second)
I put well over 15 months of research into replacing my 12-year old 4X4 Cvic wagon. (Which, by the way, was rusting terribly)
Given my criteria for a vehicle, the Jetta was clearly the only vehicle on the market that met my needs. I view reliability as somthing that can be FIXED by replacing the faulty parts.
Things like a preponderance to RUST, harsh ride, poor handling, boooring to drive...etc CANNOT be easilly corrected after purchase.
Thus, the VWs 12-year/unlimited-milage warantee was the biggest attractor for me. Also the handling is unmatched by anything else in the pricerange. VW also has significantly more QUALITY materials in the same pricerange. (Quality is NOT reliability)
I dont know how to say it any clearer.... There are other things besides RELIABILITY that are more important. These other things cannot be easilly put into a table and compared numerically or with a graph.
I find it almost humerous that some of these "facts" you refer to seem to define "QUALITY" in some nebulus way so it can be measured numerically.
In my book, QUALITY is a dashboard material that can last 15 years without discoloring or cracking. It is switches and controls that feel good when operated and last 15 years. It is a thick layer of rubber sprayed on the entire underside of the vehicle. It is the finest Michelin tires available INSTALLED FROM THE FACTORY. It is things that other manufacturers leave out to save a buck.... but you wish were there after 50K miles.
I wonder how many vehicles you have owned that even WENT over 150K miles? One has not owned a vehicle long enoungh until one has FIXED all the initial little assembly problems.
If you'd like to set aside personal opinions (which I happen to value strongly), and survey information (which is borderline useless as far as I'm concerned), I'll be glad to throw out some information based on 4,789 lemon law cases that I've been involved with in just over 3 years - 697 were VW.
Can you quantify the nature of the "problems"?
I am wondering if it was the ignitor-coil problem, that has been correctd.
Yes folks, the TDI can approach 800 miles per tank of fuel. Not even those silly hybreds can match that.
While every other manufacturer that sells vehicles in the US says burning a quart of oil in 2,000-3,000 miles is pushing it, but sort of OK, VW stands firm that their cars can burn a quart every thousand and it's not a problem - boggles my mind.
I'm using Mobil 1.
The info I uncoverend about this was related to the 2.0L engine. Apparently, if not broken in with enough 'gusto', the piston rings do not seat and one ends up with an oil-burning engine. Given enough miles and proper care, even one of these oil-burners will heal itself as the rings finally seat in. DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL DURING BREAK-IN!!
It is vitally important that during break-in of an engine, one uses occasional bursts of full-throttle accelleration followed by decelleration. This is easilly done on the freeway by going from 50MPH up to 70MPH then getting off the throttle and allow speed to come back down. NEVER use cruse-control during break-in of an engine.
The easiest way to make an oil-burning engine is to take a brand-new engine, put in synthetic oil and go for a long trip at highway speeds using the cruze-control.
Before someone asks why VW seems to have this issue... I can only assume that VWs manufacturing process combined with SUPER-HARD ring-material makes their engines more susceptable to poor break-in
habits. (SUPER-HARD rings are harder to break in... but make for a long-lasting engine that does not lose power after 150K miles or so.)
Again... I view this as better QUALITY than most other vehicles in the same pricerange. A QUALITY vehicle is designed to go the distance.
If this was a smokiung gun that was the owner's fault, you can bet your bottom dollar that VW would've taken the owners apart on this to avoid paying in court.
Also for reference, I don't see many 2.0 oil consumption cases and NO VR6 cases - 98% are 1.8 and 1.8T.
Funny. I put synthetic in my Protege right away when it was new and took it on a long road trip. It didn't burn oil when I sold it with 30K miles on it. Synthetic is factory fill on many cars, and any car that uses 5w20 has "semi-synthetic" from the factory.
"Also for reference, I don't see many 2.0 oil consumption cases and NO VR6 cases - 98% are 1.8 and 1.8T."
1.8 AND 1.8T? I didn't know VW sold the naturally aspirated 1.8L here in the US.
By no means, do I say that your engine is going to explode if you switch early - I tend to keep vehicles a long time, so I play it safe.
If I only kept cars for 2-3 years (your trade at 30k), I don't think I'd even make the switch - I'm not keeping it long term, so why spend the money?
It is interesting that I have never before heard about the 1.8T consuming oil. Therfore I cannot suggest any reasons for this.
I am beginning to think that a lot of VWs engine-woes have been with the 1.8T Audi engine. Ill bet there are some serious discussions about the decesion to use an Audi engine in a VW.
I have owned at least 5 VWs over the years and they all went well over 150K miles. (This was with the 1.5L, 1.6L, 1.8L that matured into todays 2.0)
I'm interested buying a new 2004 Jetta TDI but after reading some of the horror stories here about the recent 98-03 models I'm starting to reconsider. Has anyone had any problems with the 2004 models or know anyone who has? (ie, windows dropping into doors, coils, sluggish speed after rainy weather, etc).
Thank you
The window-regulator problem was addressed and corrected many years ago.
I am not sure what you mean by "sluggish speed after rainy weather", that sounds like the coil problem which, again, cannot affect the TDI.
HOWEVER, Keep in mind that starting in 2004, the TDI now has pump-duse injection. This engine REQUIRES VW 505.01 speced. oil. In the USA, this oil is only available at VW dealerships.
Basically, since North America is lagging about 5 years behind Europe when it comes to diesel technology, we do not have the proper FUEL for a modern diesel engine. The Feds have mandated that we will get the ELSD (Extreemly Low Sulpher Diesel) fuel by the year 2005.
Check out the VW TDI forum here on edmunds for more specific info.
Thank you for the reply. Although I didn't state it in my first post, I was also considering the 1.8T model thats why I was asking about the coils etc. In your opinion do you think the 2004's will be more reliable?
The coilpacks were an issue with 1.8T & VR6 engines from 2001-02. This was due to a bad run from the supplier (compromised dielectric IIRC). The falling window syndrome has been remedied as has the MAF sensor. These all had high failure rates for a limited time. The high failure rate problems listed have extended warranties (7yr./70K mi.) and are not an issue with newer models.
I have my doubts concerning high oil consumption on the 1.8T's. I have 50,000 on mine and it uses NO oil. In fact, I run 0-30 Mobil 1 in the winter and it uses no oil between changes (5K). I also keep informed with VW interest websites and have not heard of 1.8T engines consuming oil. ?????
"These all had high failure rates for a limited time."
Limited time as in years? Didn't it take VW a couple model years to fix those problems? IIRC, the window problem didn't get fixed until 2002 or 2003 and the current Jetta was introduced in 1999.
Yes, limited time as in years. And, yes it did take a couple model years to fix some of these problems. But you have to remember that these 'problems' didn't become 'problematic' until a level of failure rate was reached and this takes time.
IMHO, VW did not respond fast enough and at least some of this delay is due to their arrogance - and they will pay dearly for it.
Interesting. So, if I stick with the VW recommended viscosity of 5w-40, which in North America (and possibly the world) only comes in synthetic format, you're pretty much telling me that the rings won't seat properly? OR, does that recommendation of 5w-40 actually mean that the 1.8T engine is, in reality, a synthetic-mandated engine?
I'm sorry, but I testify in court for a living - I'm used to getting my words picked apart by defense lawyers - I'm not going to do it here.
newcar - how about we use gasoline engines, except the VR6 - this oil consumption issue, for purposes of breach of warranty lawsuits, dates back to the mid-80s.
altair - it wasn't your conversation and you evidently didn't read his post - he was referring to a Mazda product, not VW. Go with whatever oil your owner's manual indicates.
The NA 1.8L that the US saw is so old I don't even think it's fair to bring it up. IIRC, the NA 1.8L was the standard engine before the 2.0L. That was a LONG time ago.