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German engineering has gone Downhill!!!
the final blow was by the shop, which never called me back when they said they would, on several occasions (probably because they're constantly backed up with tons of complaints). I eventually got rid of it for a toyota, without the coils or the second radio replaced because they never called me back.
From what I've read the dealer network in Europe is a lot better and more responsive as well.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I would prefer a European made VW. I definitely don't want to be political, that is not I. If a particular assembly has militant strikes, then the cars won't be good. That is all I am saying.
- driver door lock, trunk door lock and then ignition lock had to be replaced...
- dashboard light (above speedometer and tachometer) went out. Replacement: $300 something
- CEL came on more times than I can count. Changed a couple items
- bearing on fan went out, so the whole fan had to be replaced
- the computer unit was changed under warranty
- alternator had to be changed
I'm at 118k miles and the automatic transmission is starting to slip. I'm keeping the car for another few months, will unload it for cheap and will buy an Accord. Needless to say, I'd never buy a VW again.
Food for thought: to get my VW repaired, I always to call in advance to make an appointment as the service department was always busy. For my Honda, I could drop the car pretty much anytime.
I suggest to prospective VW buyers to go visit the service department at 8:00 am to get an idea of the car reliability.
I've got the car in the end of '01 with 5K miles, now it is close to 35K. Never had any mechanical, electrical or other major problem (knocking on its interior's real wood ;-) ). It still has that incredible new car smell (of course, I never ever smoke in it).
Minor concerns are not all that great mileage (with current gas prices it becomes noticeable) and the necessity to add about half quart of oil in the middle of every 5K miles service interval.
I sure hope to have this gem for many more years to come.
Just wanted to add that little and rare 'happy camper' note to the board.
My goodness, it was not that long ago that just getting 60K miles from ANY vehicle was a tough job.
These folks may be disapointed when they discover that there is no such thing as a perfect machine. All vehicles will require some maintenance as they go over 60K miles.
I have owned several Hondas and many VWs over the years. The Hondas are booorrring as a pet rock while the VWs are always a joy to drive.
They have all required replacement parts once they got over 60K miles....It is just the nature of the machine.
villa
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
My VW experience from the cars to the dealer has been nothing but positive.
villa
I only meant, that if there are militant strikes at assembly points, the assembly will be affected. In no way am I being political or putting one country before another. I certainly never meant to and I apologise for any misunderstanding. I travel round quite a bit and I love many countries.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I have to wonder how Mercedes-Benz will do with its new intention to open an assembly plant in China? And I wonder how VW has done quality wise in Beijing as well.
Ironically, those are the same areas in which Mercdes-Benz and BMW have had troubles with outside-Germany built cars. VW contracts a lot of subsassembly work - I suspect M-B and BMW do as well - and that they're not as adept at production logistics as the Japanese automakers are -- Toyota, Honda and Nissan have had no trouble producing solid-quality cars in almost any part of the world, which points to the problem with the German automakers being in the entire production process -- not just the assembly plant.
Your *personal* experience with VWs is just that. You're all guilty of letting that *personal* experience cloud judgement. Read this article from USA Today, May 11, 2004 about the quality problems VW is experiencing and their restructuring of personnel to fix them:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-05-11-vw_x.htm?POE=click- -refer
AND THEN:
Note that VW quality ratings (JD Power) have fallen 15% in the last year alone and that they are now ranked 36th out of 37 global auto manufacturers. And that this slide occurred while the industry AVERAGE quality index went UP 11%.
Also note that the three-year JDP rankings shows VW at 33rd ranking (of 37).
Also note that the Beetle, Golf and Jetta have all fallen off CR's recommended lists this year based on poor quality.
And note the comment that although VW has brought in quality gurus to fix the products, their own management comments that it's "too late" for the upcoming Passat and Jetta redesigns.
The FACTS show that these cars are poorer in quality than whatever is in 37th place (Citroen?).
I'm super-bummed because I've been wanting a Passat for five years now. But the FACTS clearly show that I'd be an idiot to buy one.
However, you'd better have much more money ready for repairs.
If any friends or family talk cars with me, I tell them that quality-wise everything is pretty much equal... except VW and Kia. As much as I wish I just had my personal anecdote to go on, I know a VW salesdude and he says it's ridiculous how many brand new cars are towed back. Last time I talked to him he had a half-dozen brand new Passats and Jettas towed back the previous week. Luckily for him he also sells Nissan.
Personally, I maintain that most of the "FACTS AND RATINGS" are just a small part of the larger picture that one needs to considerd when deciding on an approprate vehicle to purchase.
Most of those "FACTS AND RATINGS" are biased. I am not going to re-hash why this is true but suffice to say the they are NOT totally accurate.
"JD powers" attempts to quantify INITIAL QUALITY which has virtually nothing to do with reliability, drivability, customer satisfaction or personal preference.
"Consumer Reports" simply polls its readers for data.... thus the cross-section of datapoints is limited to those folks that beleive CR is worthy of having a subscription. (Cant get much more bised than that!)
If you want a Passat, get one and enjoy a long relationship with your wonderful German roadcar.
I trust that you realize that a USED car is very often more reliable than a NEW one? (all of the problems have been isolated and corrected)
I don't think any publication, website, or user's forum is out to get VW.
I would assume that readers and supporters of Consumer Reports would likewise stress the importance of Quality and Reliability, be it a car or a washing machine. I would therefore then think that the data which CR collects is actually a good indicator of the buying publics' experiences with product quality and reliability, not just "biased" data. I would think this is actually pertinent data - and that those not reporting are LESS concerned with quality and reliability (ie: ostrich-head-in-sand syndrome).
Further, as I mentioned in this post, I understand that this topic is about personal experience, but a majority of these posts have been back and forth bantering about personal experience relating to the brand's overall quality and reliability and I am simply interjecting some FACTUAL information about that particular topic matter.
As to people having access to factual information - isn't this what Edmund's is for? Where else should we post factual information - even if it's information you may not want to read? As a site that stresses knowledge, I think that buyers should KNOW about VW's horrible quality and reliability ratings. I see people driving new VWs around every day. Think they would continue to buy these cars if they had the data (apparently, a full quarter of previous VW owners aren't even returning to the brand these days - yep, that's int he article too).
As to bias - show me a better study of product quality and reliability than CR and JDP. I'm not maintaining they're perfect, but ther ARE the standard and as such they used the same data to compare apples to apples. If 33 of 37 auto manufacturers are building cars with higher levels of quality and reliability (over three years) than VW, then where's your dig on the data? Those cars HAVE higher quality and reliability. They don't use a different yardstick for each brand.
Where's your logic?
Let me answer you like this.... I drove many vehicles with an open mind and ended up at the Jetta. (The Nissan Altima a close second)
I put well over 15 months of research into replacing my 12-year old 4X4 Cvic wagon. (Which, by the way, was rusting terribly)
Given my criteria for a vehicle, the Jetta was clearly the only vehicle on the market that met my needs. I view reliability as somthing that can be FIXED by replacing the faulty parts.
Things like a preponderance to RUST, harsh ride, poor handling, boooring to drive...etc CANNOT be easilly corrected after purchase.
Thus, the VWs 12-year/unlimited-milage warantee was the biggest attractor for me. Also the handling is unmatched by anything else in the pricerange. VW also has significantly more QUALITY materials in the same pricerange. (Quality is NOT reliability)
I dont know how to say it any clearer.... There are other things besides RELIABILITY that are more important. These other things cannot be easilly put into a table and compared numerically or with a graph.
I find it almost humerous that some of these "facts" you refer to seem to define "QUALITY" in some nebulus way so it can be measured numerically.
In my book, QUALITY is a dashboard material that can last 15 years without discoloring or cracking. It is switches and controls that feel good when operated and last 15 years. It is a thick layer of rubber sprayed on the entire underside of the vehicle. It is the finest Michelin tires available INSTALLED FROM THE FACTORY. It is things that other manufacturers leave out to save a buck.... but you wish were there after 50K miles.
I wonder how many vehicles you have owned that even WENT over 150K miles? One has not owned a vehicle long enoungh until one has FIXED all the initial little assembly problems.
If you'd like to set aside personal opinions (which I happen to value strongly), and survey information (which is borderline useless as far as I'm concerned), I'll be glad to throw out some information based on 4,789 lemon law cases that I've been involved with in just over 3 years - 697 were VW.
Can you quantify the nature of the "problems"?
I am wondering if it was the ignitor-coil problem, that has been correctd.
Yes folks, the TDI can approach 800 miles per tank of fuel. Not even those silly hybreds can match that.
While every other manufacturer that sells vehicles in the US says burning a quart of oil in 2,000-3,000 miles is pushing it, but sort of OK, VW stands firm that their cars can burn a quart every thousand and it's not a problem - boggles my mind.
I'm using Mobil 1.
The info I uncoverend about this was related to the 2.0L engine. Apparently, if not broken in with enough 'gusto', the piston rings do not seat and one ends up with an oil-burning engine. Given enough miles and proper care, even one of these oil-burners will heal itself as the rings finally seat in. DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL DURING BREAK-IN!!
It is vitally important that during break-in of an engine, one uses occasional bursts of full-throttle accelleration followed by decelleration. This is easilly done on the freeway by going from 50MPH up to 70MPH then getting off the throttle and allow speed to come back down. NEVER use cruse-control during break-in of an engine.
The easiest way to make an oil-burning engine is to take a brand-new engine, put in synthetic oil and go for a long trip at highway speeds using the cruze-control.
Before someone asks why VW seems to have this issue... I can only assume that VWs manufacturing process combined with SUPER-HARD ring-material makes their engines more susceptable to poor break-in
habits. (SUPER-HARD rings are harder to break in... but make for a long-lasting engine that does not lose power after 150K miles or so.)
Again... I view this as better QUALITY than most other vehicles in the same pricerange. A QUALITY vehicle is designed to go the distance.
If this was a smokiung gun that was the owner's fault, you can bet your bottom dollar that VW would've taken the owners apart on this to avoid paying in court.
Also for reference, I don't see many 2.0 oil consumption cases and NO VR6 cases - 98% are 1.8 and 1.8T.
Funny. I put synthetic in my Protege right away when it was new and took it on a long road trip. It didn't burn oil when I sold it with 30K miles on it. Synthetic is factory fill on many cars, and any car that uses 5w20 has "semi-synthetic" from the factory.
"Also for reference, I don't see many 2.0 oil consumption cases and NO VR6 cases - 98% are 1.8 and 1.8T."
1.8 AND 1.8T? I didn't know VW sold the naturally aspirated 1.8L here in the US.
By no means, do I say that your engine is going to explode if you switch early - I tend to keep vehicles a long time, so I play it safe.
If I only kept cars for 2-3 years (your trade at 30k), I don't think I'd even make the switch - I'm not keeping it long term, so why spend the money?
It is interesting that I have never before heard about the 1.8T consuming oil. Therfore I cannot suggest any reasons for this.
I am beginning to think that a lot of VWs engine-woes have been with the 1.8T Audi engine. Ill bet there are some serious discussions about the decesion to use an Audi engine in a VW.
I have owned at least 5 VWs over the years and they all went well over 150K miles. (This was with the 1.5L, 1.6L, 1.8L that matured into todays 2.0)
I'm interested buying a new 2004 Jetta TDI but after reading some of the horror stories here about the recent 98-03 models I'm starting to reconsider. Has anyone had any problems with the 2004 models or know anyone who has? (ie, windows dropping into doors, coils, sluggish speed after rainy weather, etc).
Thank you
The window-regulator problem was addressed and corrected many years ago.
I am not sure what you mean by "sluggish speed after rainy weather", that sounds like the coil problem which, again, cannot affect the TDI.
HOWEVER, Keep in mind that starting in 2004, the TDI now has pump-duse injection. This engine REQUIRES VW 505.01 speced. oil. In the USA, this oil is only available at VW dealerships.
Basically, since North America is lagging about 5 years behind Europe when it comes to diesel technology, we do not have the proper FUEL for a modern diesel engine. The Feds have mandated that we will get the ELSD (Extreemly Low Sulpher Diesel) fuel by the year 2005.
Check out the VW TDI forum here on edmunds for more specific info.
Thank you for the reply. Although I didn't state it in my first post, I was also considering the 1.8T model thats why I was asking about the coils etc. In your opinion do you think the 2004's will be more reliable?
The coilpacks were an issue with 1.8T & VR6 engines from 2001-02. This was due to a bad run from the supplier (compromised dielectric IIRC). The falling window syndrome has been remedied as has the MAF sensor. These all had high failure rates for a limited time. The high failure rate problems listed have extended warranties (7yr./70K mi.) and are not an issue with newer models.
I have my doubts concerning high oil consumption on the 1.8T's. I have 50,000 on mine and it uses NO oil. In fact, I run 0-30 Mobil 1 in the winter and it uses no oil between changes (5K). I also keep informed with VW interest websites and have not heard of 1.8T engines consuming oil. ?????
"These all had high failure rates for a limited time."
Limited time as in years? Didn't it take VW a couple model years to fix those problems? IIRC, the window problem didn't get fixed until 2002 or 2003 and the current Jetta was introduced in 1999.
Yes, limited time as in years. And, yes it did take a couple model years to fix some of these problems. But you have to remember that these 'problems' didn't become 'problematic' until a level of failure rate was reached and this takes time.
IMHO, VW did not respond fast enough and at least some of this delay is due to their arrogance - and they will pay dearly for it.
Interesting. So, if I stick with the VW recommended viscosity of 5w-40, which in North America (and possibly the world) only comes in synthetic format, you're pretty much telling me that the rings won't seat properly? OR, does that recommendation of 5w-40 actually mean that the 1.8T engine is, in reality, a synthetic-mandated engine?
I'm sorry, but I testify in court for a living - I'm used to getting my words picked apart by defense lawyers - I'm not going to do it here.
newcar - how about we use gasoline engines, except the VR6 - this oil consumption issue, for purposes of breach of warranty lawsuits, dates back to the mid-80s.
altair - it wasn't your conversation and you evidently didn't read his post - he was referring to a Mazda product, not VW. Go with whatever oil your owner's manual indicates.
The NA 1.8L that the US saw is so old I don't even think it's fair to bring it up. IIRC, the NA 1.8L was the standard engine before the 2.0L. That was a LONG time ago.