VW brand experience - good or bad?

corvette

drift,

How often do you see BMW's in lemon law cases?

driftracer

although not as much compared to other makes, mostly due to BMW's lower production numbers (compared to what seems like 1 out of every 10 Chevrolet Cavalier).

I haven't seen any really drastic trends - mostly just engine management and electrical issues - nothing to be afraid of as a whole.

anonymousposts

bjbird: You can't just use what CR says. Many reviews have stated the Accord is now the top of the class in terms of sporty feel while providing a refined overall package. This is what was VW's claim to fame before. It no longer has this advantage. Also, iirc, one review even stated that it was a strange world when the Accord drove like a German car and the Passat no longer seemed to.

magoo1

I too have a lemon since 1996, Jetta GL purchased new. AC Compressor went after 3 NY summers (3 mos of use each yr at most?); exhaust sensors have all been replaced around 30K (not warrantied & $300 per); my battery was leaking acid at 25K & I was at the dealer on a weekly basis for a full 2 month period (no joke); drive train went at 50K with no warning; exhaust system has been replaced twice at $600 per since it rusted off-once at 30K and recently at 60K; I barely drive the car but it has been nothing but a nightmare including the outside door rubber molding pieces which have fallen off & been replaced a few times-but now live in my trunk. I wouldn't recommend a VW to anyone.

driftracer

Not to rehash harsh menories, but what do you mean by this?

There's a couple of major components, like the engine and transmission, that comprise the "drivetrain"...

belly232

I am on my third vw from an 86 jetta to my current 2004 jetta gli and i have never experienced any major mechanical failures. I have logged a total of about 180000 miles in vw jettas and the only mechanical parts that i had to change was a Mass Airflow Sensor and a timing belt (that the mechanic told me could have lasted another 30000). Unlike hondas (that you can probably launch an RPG at and it will still keep running) VWs require a little more attention to its maintainance schedule. Most german automakers require the same attention especially if your car is driven a-lot.

driftracer

that "attention" makes them non-compliant with the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act and some state's lemon laws...

600kgolfgt

From Edmunds long-term test of the 2003 Honda Accord:

There have even been industry trade stories reporting that Honda used Volkswagen's Passat as inspiration on how to give the company's volume sedan an appealing aura that goes beyond pure logic.

Now we know how Honda was able to make their Accord more "German-like". It surely wasn't due to innovation or originality (and they had to use an 8-year old design as their inspiration)...

Once the new Passat comes out mid 2005 (2006 model year), it will be back to the drawing board for Honda.

anonymousposts

Let's be realistic here. If, and it's a big IF, the 06 Passat is significantly better than the Accord it will undoubtedly come at a premium. VW quality has taken a beating (AGAIN) here in the US and sales are reflecting this. The new Golf performed horrendously when it was released. I think that the Accord will be just fine even with the introduction of the 2006 Passat. Besides, the next Accord will be out for 2008 which will mean that the Accord will have several years worth of an advantage design-wise vs. the Passat if VW waits another 8 years to change the platform.

AND .... Honda didn't benchmark the mechanicals from the Passat because the Accord's engines are significantly better than those in the Passat as is it's safety rating.

belly232

If you want a car that you have to pay absolutely no attention to, stick with your boring accords and camrys. Most people have problems because they choose to ignore there cars completely.

anonymousposts

I do not ignore my car and I still like the Accord better. It's funny that the only thing VW-loyalists can say about the Accord is that it's an "appliance". Well if I am going to have an appliance for a car I would much rather have a Whirpool Duet washer/dryer than a Roper.

Bad coils and sludge are not results of owner negligence. VW made bad coils and suggest improper maintenance intervals. How can you blame that on the owners? Same goes for the window regulators.

driftracer

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more -

I'm not showing my credentials, but as someone who has been hands-on with over 5,300 (and counting) lemon law cases, I know which vehicles are problematic and which aren't.

I don't own an Accord or Camry - neither fits my lifestyle. They're great at what they do. So is the Passat, for that matter.

I find it exceedingly humorous when owners of stereotypically problematic cars defend themselves by calling extremely reliable cars "boring" or "appliances".

If the car starts for me everytime I hit the key and doesn't spend more than 2-3 days in the shop over a 3-4 year ownership period, I'll take boring over whatever VW offers everytime.

grbeck

A fair number of poeple I know who own a VW have experienced serious problems, and these problems are not because of owner neglect.

bpeebles

I feel compelled to remind the redears of this discussion that it tends to be the DEALERSHIP EXPERIENCE that often makes the difference.

I once owned a Honda. It had its share of problems....but the dealership was SUPERB! I felt as if there was a red carpet with my name on it every time I had to visit the Honda service area. They always bent over backwords to make sure I was DELIGHTED customer. There are not many VW service departments that could hold a candle to that kind of service.

I drive past 2 VW dealerships to get to my chosen one. Thus far, it has been decient. Low cost for oil-changes and effective repairs to some little glitches.

Sadly, People that are treated right, get a free lonar car and do not have to revisit the dealship for the same problem are most often NOT a VW owner.

And yes... that Honda was boring, boring, boring. If my wife did not insist on a 4 wheel drive civic, we would have been driving a Jetta. (which, sadly, did not offer 4WD in 1991)

corvette

Accord's engines are significantly better than those in the Passat as is it's safety rating.
=================================================
The engines, no contest. The safety rating: The Passat has offered standard ABS and chest airbags since 1998, side curtain airbags standard since 2001, and now offers optional stabillity control. All of these innovations came before the Accord had them. Stability control is unavailable at any price or trim level on the Accord. My next car will have it, and if a car doesn't offer it (or you can't find one available with it), it won't be on the list.

I have driven the current Accord (4-cylinder EX auto), and found it to be a capable sedan. The interior is truly on par with the Europeans, but the exterior styling is a little funky. The best year for the Accord's styling was the 1994-5 EX model, it looked really sporty.

anonymousposts

Based on current safety ratings the Passat is lagging behind even with the above-mentioned standard equipment.

Additionally, the airbags and ESC don't really help a car that spends most of it's time in the shop anyways. ESC doesn't do you too much good when your car is on a VW dealer lift.

FWIW: I loved my 99 Accord EX 5-speed but overall I think the 03+ is a better car. However, the 90-93 Accord may have been the best one in some areas.

corvette

Additionally, the airbags and ESC don't really help a car that spends most of it's time in the shop anyways.
=================================================
Point well taken, and it does remind me of my former Jetta, which I enjoyed a love-hate relationship with (like most of my cars, come to think of it)...

grbeck

bpeebles is correct. The people I know who had problems with their VWs also had dealers that were distinctly disinterested in doing anything about them...at least until the warranty ended.

I sometimes wonder if the VW dealer network is going to sink VW in this country.

driftracer

sorry about Hershey, hope it was good - I was doing race seats and a 6 point cage in my son's Nissan 240SX...

grbeck

drift, you would have enjoyed it again this year. Great weather, and lots of great cars. Even a few sharp, well-restored vintage VWs were on the showfield.

There are two VW dealers in this area, and I haven't heard good things about the service provided by either one. If the dealer makes an honest attempt to fix a problem, it removes some of the sting. But persistent quality problems combined with a lousy dealer network spell big trouble.

driftracer

plus the "no problem found" diagnosis is plaguing ALL manufacturer service departments.

In this case, I'm thinking, it's a VW, not a Ferrari...lose the attitude.

billmchale

DriftRacer, I am curious, how does attention to the service requirements of a car violate Magnusson-Moss? I am not familiar with the law, but I would think that any warrenty excludes damage done to a vehicle because the owner failed to keep up necessary maintenance on the car?

BTW, for the record, 125,000 miles on my VW Jetta and other than a battery at 110,000 miles and a Starter motor at 115,000 miles the car has never failed me. I am sure that some VWs are nightmares, but I bet there are a fair number out there that give good basic service everyday. Its not like Jaguar in the 1980s.

bjbird2

Interesting, MSN has long term reliability ratings. For 2002, the Passat (which I own) and the Accord have identical ratings. Both are listed with "moderate" engine problems, every other category is listed as minimal problems for both cars.
Before 2002, from 98'-01', the Accord has "significant" transmission problems, and the Passat has "significant" engine problems.
These reliability ratings are close to what Consumer Reports has been saying, and contrary to what some have been saying on this forum about the Accord being "bullet proof' and trouble free.

Here's the link.
http://autos.msn.com/home/reliability_ratings.aspx?src=URES

driftracer

I'm speaking of the extra "attention" in the form of warranty repairs - that "attention" was referred to as the VWs needing extra attention...a new car shouldn't need extra attention, according to Mag-Moss, plus the Uniform Commercial Code and the Implied Warranty of Merchantibility.

Has nothing to do with owner maintenance, or lack of - if there's a lack of maintenance, the mfr has every right to terminate your warranty - after all, THEY wrote the warranty, and the owner would violate the mfr's requirements by not maintaining the car.

I never commented on maintenance as related to warranty issues, though. To me, that arena is cut and dried.

bjbird2

"Based on current safety ratings the Passat is lagging behind even with the above-mentioned standard equipment."
 
I don't know where you get your information to justify this statement. According to the IIHS Crash Tests, the Accord is rated "good"" in all categories except for Overall SIDE without optional side airbags, 2003-04 models, where it is rated "Poor". I would bet that most Accords do not have the optional side airbags, which are standard on the Passat. Also on the new SIDE IMPACT CRASH TESTS, the Accord is rated "marginal" for "structure/safety cage".
The only place the Passat falls short is in "restraints/dummy kinematics, where it was rated "acceptable' instead of "good". The Passat has not yet been tested for the Side Impact Test.

http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ratings.htm

anonymousposts

The Accord and the Camry were the only cars to receive a good rating in side impact tests for their class.

For 2005 all Accords have standard curtain and side airbags.

According to www.nhtsa.com the Accord posts lower injury measurements in nearly every category.

bjbird2

Where on the nhtsa site do you see that the Accord and the Camry were the only cars to receive a good rating in side impact tests for their class?
The ratings look very close for the Passat.
According to the recently completed IIHS side impact crash tests I refer to, the Accord was rated "marginal' for structure/safety cage for 2004-2005 vehicles.

catherine9

Did anyone see the latest injury report from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety? The Passat fared much better than the Honda (24% better to be exact).
It will be interesting to see if the Accord improves now that side airbags are standard on all models. I think real-world statistics are more meaningful than test results. And I don't think you can argue that, in general, Accord drivers are worse drivers than Passat drivers.
I would hesitate to buy either car--the Passat for its reliabilty record, the Honda for its safety record. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find a car that's both safe and reliable.
By the way, the Passat tested by the NHTSA was a 2000 model that lacked side-curtain airbags.

anonymousposts

IIHS identified the Accord and Camry as the only two cars in that test to receive a Good rating in side impact testing. As you said, they did not test the Passat so how can the rating be better?

Regardless of the Accord's structure rating the car received a Good overall, again only the Camry was as good as the Accord in side impact crash tests of it's class.

corvette

The 4x2 Suburban had the lowest death rate of all cars on the last report I looked at, but I see plenty (safety and otherwise) lacking in the GM SUV's, and am not about to go out and buy one.

catherine9

I agree--I wouldn't drive a Suburban either. But people here were comparing the Accord and Passat in terms of safety, and I thought I'd mention the latest safety stastistics. Toyotas and Hondas are average in terms of injury claims, and I've always wondered why since they do receive better than average safety scores from the government.

bpeebles

Perhaps it is due to the fact that so many "government testing" seems to not align with reality.

This holds true for vehicle safety as well as vehicle MPG estimates.

Lest I leave out "Consumer reports" who is often WAYY off base when it comes to some of the results of its testing methodology.

At least no one is quoting "Consumer Digest" who actually gets payed by the companys whos products it is testing. (bias...you bet)

The safety of a vehicle can be approxamated by rigid testing but the real world is where it counts. Unfortunately, the variable of the DRIVER is always present in the real world. (The driver of a Passat may be a safer driver than say.... the driver of a Golf R32)

billmchale

Ah ok, thanks driftracer, I see what you are saying now. I took the extra attention to mean that the European cars just had a more demanding (on the owner that is) service cycle than the Japanese cars which really do seem to need little but oil changes for their first 100,000 miles to keep them running well.

andys120

Japanese cars...seem to need little but oil changes for their first 100,000 miles to keep them running well
More than a few car owners have found that failing to attend to changing the rubber timing belt at 60-75k (@ around $700 depending on the car) will result in expensive engine work, if not a completely new motor.

I owned one of the first production cars to have the rubber cambelt (124 Spider) and I am at a loss as to why this maintainence- intensive device replaced the reliable metal chain as the method of choice.

Interestingly most of the cars still using chains are European including the Saab and BMW that I currently own.

corvette

Chains tend to cause vibrations, but engine isolation is good enough now that it's hard to tell a difference between a car with a belt and a well-designed one with a chain. Chains can wear out or break, but it's very uncommon, and there's usually a lot of warning (noise) beforehand. The Volvo cars all use timing belts, last I checked, and have for some time. 2003-plus Accord 4-cylinders and all 2002-plus Altimas have timing chains. Volkswagen's 1.8T, 1.9 TDI, 2.0, and 2.8 V6 (Passat V6) engines all have belts. It's kind of a crapshoot on the imports. I can't think of any domestic brands that currently use a belt, though.

My Japanese import has needed tires, brakes, an air filter, oil changes, and body repair in its first 49,000 miles....

billmchale

The Japanese brands tend to need little besides oil changes... It seems that auto manufacturers go back and forth on that issue; I think the Corolla use to have a timeing chain, not sure about whether the current engine has one or a timing belt.

Regarding the Altimas; is that the 4 cylinder or the 6 or both? If the latter that would mean that most Nissans could be had with engines that have a timing chain.

corvette

I think some of the older Nissans had timing belts, but AFAIK all the new ones have chains. The QA25 and VQ35 engines in the Altima both have chains, and the VQ is used in the Murano and Maxima.

rubytuesday4

Can some one help me out here? I am interested in getting a 2004 VW Passat Wagon GLS. Will this car be reliable or not? I would like a cut and dry answer, yes or no. I would really appreciate any feedback you have.

Thank You

driftracer

and for all practical purposes, it's a great car. From my perspective, however, with hundreds of VW lemon law cases under my belt, and experience with Passats specifically, there are many more reliable choices out there for you.

So, my opinion is "no".

bpeebles

If "reliable" is your only criteria for selecting an automobile, then VW may not be your best choice. VWs need to be maintained. Follow the maintenace schedule and you should have a long, happy life with your VW. (I have had at least 4 VWs and they all went well over 120K miles) Sure parts WORE out...(alternator, brakes...etc) but so did the same parts on my Honda(s). The German engineering on VW is impeccable.

There are other vehicles available that are DESIGNED to be ignored and driven. They are as boring to drive as the appliances they are. They will get rust holes in them after only 7-9 winters.

Out of all the vehicles I considerd to purchase, VW was the only obvious choice based on my personal criteria for an automibile.
1) RUST RESISTANCE (VW has 12-year/unlimited milage warantee)
2)ROADFEEL (VW drives better than any others for the price...BAR NONE!)
3) QUALITY (VW has obvious quality above anything else at the same price point)
4) ECONOMY (I like going over 680 miles per tank of fuel)

driftracer

every car needs to be maintained - what I'm talking about has nothing to do with maintenance (directly) - I'm talking about component failures, breakdowns, whatever you want to call it - warranty or non-warranty repairs, not 30k maintenance visits.

You don't get a car bought back by the manufacturer, or have a court find the manufacturer guilty of breach of warranty (or breach of implied warranty of merchantibility) for needing "maintenance"....

corvette

They will get rust holes in them after only 7-9 winters.
================================================

In a northern climate, perhaps. Based on past history, a Passat is statistically unlikely to be reliable. However, it is almost the end of this production cycle, so what's left that they haven't fixed? I want to believe in VW, but my past experience (Jetta VR6) has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. My dad owns (and abuses) a Beetle TDI which has been flawless. Don't expect economy with a gasoline model.

fish8

You're looking for a simple yes or no answer, but that's not possible. VW makes GREAT cars, but they will NOT be as reliable as a Toyota or a Honda. I am on my second VW (the first was a '02 Jetta and now I own a '04.5 Passat GLS) and I have never had any mechanical failures or have I ever been stranded. They both have been solid vehicles. BUT, VW (along with every other car company) produces their share of lemons. VW will most likely have more of those lemons produced, but it is also possible for you to get a good example. So, as said above, if you are looking strictly for reliability DO NOT buy a VW. Get an Accord or Camry.

Have you driven a Passat? I would recommend that you drive all cars you are interested in and see which car pulls at your heart strings. Some folks could care less about the emotional aspects of car ownership and just want a car that will start everytime the key is turned and can get them from point A to point B. A Honda is perfect for that purpose. Don't get me wrong, the new Accords are great cars and you couldn't go wrong with buying one. But, in my personal opinion, the Passat offers ALL aspects I look for in car ownership.

Good luck!!

Kirstie_H

A reporter hopes to talk with some new car owners who have considered buying Volkswagens but ended up buying something else.
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with a few words about your experience and your daytime contact info by Monday, November 1, 2004.

gdavis

Hi all
I have a 2002 (June) Jetta 1.8 T, 29K miles. Besides numerous problems such as the CD player failing, horns going out, door handles peeling, AC outlets breaking, and engine lights a-glowing, I have one SERIOUS problem.

When the car is cold, I put it in drive or reverse and press the brake. It shakes front to back. This goes away if the car is in park, I am accelerating or coasting, or when the car warms up. It has been to the dealer 3 other times besides today, and different things have been blamed. Engine timing, those faulty ignition coils (which were replaced), and air intake. Each time I find the problem to remain unsolved.

Saturday this shaking became so VIOLENT that it frightened me and my passenger. And we don't scare easily. It has been towed to the shop.

Does anyone know what is wrong with this car? They say my motor mounts are fine.

What are my options? How do I get VW to hand me a check for the original purchase price so I can get the HELL out of VW land? The lemon law doesn't apply, since it occurred 2K miles outside the required time.

Help is appreciated! Thanks in advance.
g

fitguy

Another point of view and option for you- from a former Passat (2000 GLS) and Accord ('03 EX Coupe)owner: The Passat is a wonderful driving car; I had a deposit on a used/certified Maxima when I bought mine, went back, drove the VW one more time and bought it & cancelled the purchase of the Maxima. However, the Passat became plagued with electrical problems, a faulty transmission module (had the auto) that left me stranded and neccesitated the car be towed to the dealer, then the infamous "sludge" issue and I changed oil/filter every 5K like clockwork. The Passat engages your passions but is a finicky car, especially the 1.8T I traded mine for an '03 Accord EX Coupe w/the 2.4L and it was flawless for 30K miles, not a true "drivers" car but not bad, either- and comfortable over long distances. The point of all this- you should consider also driving the Mazda 6S- its a nice blend of the 2- sportier driving than the Honda, better reliability than the VW, comparably priced. I have the V-6, much better than the four but suffers a bit on gas mileage. I also have the hatchback model and it is fantastic- looks like a sedan but huge storage. If it proves to be near as reliable as the Honda it's a winner in my book!

fitguy

Besides the Honda 2.4L (which I owned until 2 weeks ago), the Mazda 3.0L V6 (which I now own) also has a timing chain. I think the Mazda 2.3L might also. And I agree- chains are better, they don't usually break, and give warning signs even when they are just old, tired, and stretched- like some people I know!

go2guy

Saturday 11/6/04 I purchased a 2004 Passat GLX V6 Wagon. I went to pick it up from the local dealership (Fladeboe, in Irvine, CA) and noticed that both car doors on the passenger side had badly damaged chrome protector strips. I refused to take the car until they are replaced. I'm afraid the frame might be out of alignment causing the door(s) to hit chrome strips when the doors are open all the way. I didn't think at the time to check the drivers side doors for the same problem. The manager in charge at the dealership said that he had forgotten that about one in every twenty-five Passat cars have this problem (problem the chrome strips not installed properly). He said the manufacture put out a bulletin in January warning dealerships about the problem. I'll know more after Wednesday when I go checkout the car.

The Passat cars are beautiful, inside and out. I compared the Passat Wagon GLX V6 Automatic to the Toyota Highlander Limited, Honda Accord LX & the Camry XLE. I drove all but the Accord, and the Passat wins hands down.

fish8

Sorry to hear about all your problems! I would either bring your Jetta to another VW dealer and see if they can assist or talk to the owner of the dealer or at least the Service Manager. Contact VW Customer Service to log your complaint (probably won't do much good, but....) Ask them to fix the car and don't accept anything less. Period!!!

Good luck.

corvette

Try a different brand of gas, if you haven't already.

If they're not willing or able to fix it, find out when the selling dealer's next "blowout" sale is, dress the car up real nice with lemons and signs all over it, and drive back and forth in front of the dealership. Just park it nearby if there's a legal place to do so. It's not trespassing if you don't enter their property.