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Bean
This letter is to ask your immediate attention and assistance with a very serious situation concerning importation of a vehicle into Canada from the United States.
Like many Canadians, I have been following with interest the rise of the Canadian dollar, and the impact that has had on the price Canadians pay for goods in Canada versus what Canadians would pay in the United States. As you know, the price of many goods is now much cheaper in the US, and Canadian retailers have been seemingly slow to respond. In fact, the Finance Minister has made several strongly worded statements on this throughout September to October. Minister Flaherty is apparently just as frustrated at this situation as am I and undoubtedly, many others in this country. After the Minister’s last statement, some retailers did adjust their pricing; unfortunately, car dealerships and/or the car manufacturers selling in Canada, did not (to any significant degree).
I decided in early October to look into buying a vehicle in the US, and importing it into Canada. Judging by the many media reports on this matter, I was just one person amongst many. My process to import began with following all the recommendations laid out by Transport Canada (TC), the Registrar of Imported Vehicles (RIV) and US Customs and Border Patrol (USCBP).
I was encouraged in my endeavor by Transport Canada’s statement of assisting importers in determining which vehicles are “Admissible” for importation, which is done through their document entitled List of Vehicles Admissible From the United States (LVAFUS). Similarly, the RIV web-site contained useful and necessary information for me to understand the procedure to import a vehicle into Canada.
After completing my research, I chose the 2008 Nissan Maxima as the car I wanted to purchase in the US and import into Canada. This model of vehicle was not listed as “Inadmissible” on the VAFUS list at that time, which did indicate all 1992 to 2008 passenger car models except those listed as “Inadmissible”, were “Admissible”. After talking to a number of US dealerships, I made arrangements to purchase a vehicle. Prior to leaving for the US, I re-checked all the relevant documents, and contacted RIV by phone to ensure that the 2008 Maxima was “Admissible”, and I was told it was.
On November 5, while now in the US, I checked the VAFUS list once more, and the 2008 Maxima did not appear as “Inadmissible”. Accordingly, I purchased the vehicle on November 5. As required by US Customs and Border Patrol (USCBP), and as indicated on the RIV web-site, I sent the necessary documentation to the border in order to comply with the USBCP requirement that they receive the documentation at least 3 days prior to exporting the vehicle from the US. I arrived at the border a day early, and left the car in storage on the US side. As a resident of *******, being only about an hour from the border at *****, my family came to pick me up. My plan was to go back to the border today (Nov. 13) to complete the export from US and import into Canada process. However, on arriving home on Nov. 9, I checked the VAFUS list again, and to my absolute dismay, shock and surprise, I found that the 2008 Maxima was now listed as “Inadmissible”.
I now began a frantic search for information on what to do. What I found was that others in my position had been able to obtain an exemption/exception or amnesty letter from either TC or RIV which allowed them to bring their vehicles into Canada. I then also found that TC and/or RIV had stopped issuing those letters. Yesterday, in discussion with an agent at RIV, this was all confirmed to me.
The reason why the 2008 Maxima is now listed as “Inadmissible” has not been provided in any TC or RIV documentation. My research suggests it may have something to do with the Vehicle Immobilization System (VIS) which became a mandatory requirement for most vehicles in Canada manufactured after Sept. 1, 2007. However, the 2008 Maxima I purchased does have a factory installed VIS. The Insurance Bureau of Canada (IBC) has certified that the Nissan VIS complies with TC’s VIS requirements. Further, the TC’s VAFUS list and the RIV web-site contain statements or reference documents which state very clearly that the VIS can be installed as a post-import modification, just as is the case for daytime running lights.
I trust now you can see the predicament I am in. Through absolutely no fault of my own, I am now in a position to potentially lose tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle I intended to import, and yet I have followed all government prescribed procedures to import that vehicle. In addition, this whole experience has caused great stress, anguish and concern to me and my family.
I cannot fathom how TC and/or RIV can support a position whereby a vehicle purchased at a time when it was “Admissible” suddenly becomes “Inadmissible” while it is in transit to the border. And TC/RIV are well aware that the car cannot be exported immediately because of the 3 day USBCP documentation requirement. And it is plain to see that TC/RIV have recognized this because exemption/exception or amnesty letters were being issued as late as last week.
I am not sure how familiar you are with this situation or how many others have contacted you as I am. I certainly can say there are many others across the country in my situation. As my Member of Parliament, and as a member of the governing party of Canada, I implore you to urgently raise this issue with Transport Canada and Minister Cannon. I understand from the RIV that TC will be making a major announcement on vehicle importation sometime this week. This issue must be resolved in a fair, equitable and honourable manner. Any positions taken by TC or RIV that do not address the legitimate concerns I have raised will only serve to add to the confusion and angst that has already been created.
As I indicated at the outset, I would request that you give your immediate attention to this matter, as the actions of Transport Canada and RIV have created an untenable position for many Canadian citizens. Please contact me with regards to your position on this matter.
When I brought my vehicle over, I faxed a transferred copy of the MSO and they actually called me to say they wouldn't allow it. Luckily I had called them to confirm, since there is no place on the MSO to actually execute a transfer. They told me categorically that MSO's are only for dealer to dealer transfers and that you have to wait for the title before you can legally transfer it. Since we were only using a copy of the MSO for the transfer and for the faxing, we were able to re-issue the original in my name and avoid the delay in getting the title.
My hunch is that people are using MSO's in someone else's name, and that is passing. So, if that is the case for you, I recommend that you DON'T try to transfer the MSO, and if you must export it without the title, just try your luck with the MSO in your friend's name.
FYI, the border crossing I dealt with was Sweetgrass. The bill of sale from the dealer was in my friend's name, but they didn't care about that.
Good luck!
Dan
And I just got off the phone with someone in my MP's office who 's been in touch with officials at TC and they are looking into my case. The MP's staff did indicate that the issue may have to do with the Sept. 1/07 VIS requirement. I repeated to the staff member that a) the 08 Maxima has a VIS that (I assume) meets the INTENT of CMVSS 114; and, b) the TC and RIV documentation clearly indicates a VIS that meets CMVSS 114 can be installed as a modification. I also repeated that having the VIS is NOT a pre-condition of admissibility. It only comes into play at the time of passing the RIV inspection at Canadian Tire.
Stay tuned.
In the longer term, I have faith that the intent of the act and regulations will be the primary consideration - that vehicles on Canadian roads will be safe. That elements of the regulations that restrict safe vehicles from getting on our roads will be removed. Politicians and government employees will not allow the industry to erect "road blocks".
Once the 2008 model year immobilizer issue is dealt with, we should lobby for the other obstacles to be removed - such as the high fee for getting the recall letter, the necessity of improving an existing immobilizer.
Therefore, in my assessment, those posters who are presently in a bind will eventually be OK. I hope they survive long enough to get their vehicles. For my part, I'm waiting a few months for Canadian prices to come down. The vehicle I want is listed at 18,030USD in the USA and 25,570CAD in Canada.
Of course a quick call/email to RIV wouldn’t hurt either. Good Luck.
Some of the revisions are to Section 3: Audi, Bentley, Ferrari, Maserati, Mazda, Nissan/Infiniti, Suzuki, Toyota, VW, and Volvo.
Section 5 is untouched.
Other sections I won’t bother summarizing.
This was done per my earlier post of converting PDF’s to DOC’s and using Word to compare the documents... so the changes I’ve identified are only as good as this method...
Am also reading the fine print a bit more in depth now and am a bit confused (imagine that) at some of the wordings. It seems to me there is a major difference in the statements "a VIS that complies with CMVSS 114" and "a VIS that meets the intent of CMVSS 114". Compliance and meeting intent are two different animals, yes? Not that it really matters unless lawyers were involved but strikes me as odd.
Have a question. Please email me belopv(at)hotmail.com
Thank you.
looks the same to me.
All best compare the lists manually. I’m just doing it this way to catch any revisions... and it seems to work too well!
At least get your case registered. The boys working this will keep your name in confidence if you request so...
Thanks
Dear RYAN,
First of all on behalf of the entire staff at xxx Honda we would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your continued business.
A major portion of our Sales, Service and Parts business continues to come from clients such as you and your repeat and referral sales are valued and much appreciated.
As you may be aware there has been a lot of discussion in the media recently regarding the devaluation of the US currency, its affect on the Canadian new vehicle market and the impending GST reduction in January of 2008.
Both these issues have challenged New Vehicle manufacturers and Dealers in Canada to react in a timely and responsible manner.
Honda Canada is one of the first Manufacturers in Canada to address these issues and they have done so with the most aggressive offers in their history. The details of these programs vary widely depending on model and trim level and are too numerous to detail in this letter but rest assured that this is a BIG DEAL.
So, if you were waiting to save on the GST in January, now you don’t have to!
If you were waiting for an unprecedented offer from Honda Canada to address the currency issue, it’s here!
I can say without reservation that this is the largest program ever offered by Honda Canada and is unlikely to ever be repeated.
We recommend that you call our Sales Department at 604-461-0633 to arrange an appointment, as we expect to be very busy during this event, and we would like the opportunity to spend the appropriate time explaining the program and the Huge Saving Benefits to you!
This is an unprecedented, limited time opportunity and we are pleased to make this offer to you as a loyal customer. This program will not be advertised to the general public!
We look forward to seeing you and thank you again for your continued business.
Sincerely,
xxx
General Manager
I'm going to check it out tomorrow after work. We'll see what kinds of deals they're offering.
The advantage for us right now, is that the manufacturer is offering dealers the incentives to cover the "loss" of selling below their supposed "invoice" costs due to the US dis-parity pressures. I think I stated earlier that I'm waiting for the 08 Ody to hit the lot then see how much of a deal I can swing on the 07. I figure $5-6000 off the top starts to cover the gap of my US purchase.
Letter to Honda Canada
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please forward this letter to Mr. Kobayashi and Honda Canada
Dear Mr. Shin, Mr. Kobayashi, and Honda Canada,
Thank you for providing me with an opportunity to respond to Honda's "New Deal For Canadians".
As a verifiable fact, we have bought five new Honda vehicles over the last eight years. I actually test drove a new 2008 Accord Coupe last week.
Of note, when I purchased my new Honda S2000 (Oct. 1, 1999, the day of Canadian launch) the car was priced at CDN$48,000 MSRP (which I paid). I was told by the dealership's top executive that this last-minute pricing (there was no price by Honda two weeks earlier) was based on calculations that the U.S. car was priced at USD$32,000 (the exchange rate was actually 48% at the time). I clearly remember him saying $32,000 plus 50%...$48,000, sounds about right.
The discrepancy between prices in Canada and the U.S. is egregious. That same 2008 Honda S2000 is CDN$53,000 and USD$35,000 (or CDN $33,000). CDN$20,000 difference!! Twenty thousand dollars!!! Why so??
If you want to sell me a 2008 Acoord Coupe at true U.S. prices, my credit card is ready for your coveted swipe and I'll buy today.
As indicated below, pricing varies ridiculously, with Canadians being charged $5,000-20,000 more for the same cars. And the cars are very similar/identical, made at the same plants etc. as you know. The difference in car composition, if any, is minimal, and certainly does not substantiate $20,000 after tax dollars.
Excuses are plenty (Canadian cars are designed for the Canadian climate....are we supposed to believe our winters are worse than Buffalo or Minnesota). A higher level of accessories/options on Canadian cars. If we tabulated actual dollar amounts for these alleged enrichments, we're talking true cost of hundreds of dollars or less, or zero. The cost to sell cars in Canada is more than the U.S., claiming Honda cars are priced competitively within the "marketplace" (lol, 85% of Canadians live within two hours of the U.S. border)... etc....all weakly contrived mantras, at best.
Have you or anyone from your family ever bought anything from the U.S. because it was cheaper? A very serious question. Why did you make that American purchase?
The recent "sale" is also inflammatory. Are Canadians supposed to forget that every fall, when model years change, the outgoing model year cars are discounted to reflect their (almost) year's depreciation.
The savings of $2000 on the Accord Coupe I saw last week is too little, as the car is $8,000 cheaper in the U.S. And that is before we add on freight/pdi which is about twice as much in Canada (CDN$1400 vs. USD$700).
The $2000 is also after taxes are paid on the full amount, so despite the marketing, it is really only about $1750.
Finance offers are of no value to those of us who will pay cash. And quite clearly, competitive financing can always be obtained outside of Honda for those who seek it. The catchy 1.9% financing offers are only good for 36 months, and those that require a loan, almost always want 48-60 months to pay it off.
Honda has gone out of their way to block Canadians from buying in the U.S. I know the process is very simple, as I imported a 2007 Acura MDX twelve months ago (saving $16,000, despite being made in my backyard, Alliston, Ontario). Despite all previous Hondas being on the RIV admissibility list, transparent exclusionary games are now being played. Warranties are shamefully voided. Recall clearance letters have dried up, and voila, there is now a newly contrived immobilizer issue, thanks to Honda Canada. Threatening U.S. Honda dealerships is also part of Honda's dirty game. Canadians may be sheep, but we are intelligent sheep, especially when it comes to our pocketbooks.
Why should Canadians pay more for the same product? Ten thousand after tax dollars would go a long way at enhancing the quality of life of many Canadian families. Is Honda so short-sighted that they will not anticipate an appropriate customer response/backlash? Or does Honda Canada's misguided attempts at preventing the import of U.S. Hondas serve to negate the leverage of buying elsewhere? Why are loyal Canadian customers so mistreated?
When the dealer can look me in the eye and say $32,000 USD...fifty percent.....$48,000CDN sounds about right (when I bought my S2000) I won't soon forget. As Honda customers, we are about as good as they come. New S2000, Civic, Accord, Pilot, and MDX (all in eight years).
If prices are not brought to par immediately, I will not buy Honda. Period. There are many quality imports available nowadays, so the special charm of Honda is now passed (unlike when I bought my first Prelude in 1983). The arrogance of Honda Canada is not flattering.
Last week, I know Honda dealers, principals, and Mr. Kobayashi were blissfully cruising the Italian Mediterranean, and somehow chose not to come up with a palatable solution to the gouging of Canadians. That active choice, in the age of savvy consumers, and the Internet, will not pass unnoticed.
Memories last a long time. Mistreating Canadian customers, creating artificial barriers to purchasing in the U.S. in this age of NAFTA, insulting Canadians with transparent excuses, impediments, and lame "special pricing promotions", forcing them to buy at prices 25-45% higher, and disrespecting Canadians, their intelligence, and their Honda loyalty will permanently hurt Honda Canada.
Respectfully,
XXXXX XXXXX, M.D.
see appended pricing lists below
2008 Honda > Accord Coupe US Model listed as inadmissible by Transport Canada
Canadian Trims Canada MSRP US Trims US MSRP Price Markup
Accord Coupe EX 5MT $27,990 Accord Coupe EX 5-Spd MT $23,160 30%
Accord Coupe EX 5AT $29,190 Accord Coupe EX 5-Spd AT $23,960 31.05%
Accord Coupe EX-L 5MT $30,390 Accord Coupe EX-L 5-Spd MT $25,160 29.93%
Accord Coupe EX-L 5AT $31,590 Accord Coupe EX-L 5-Spd AT $25,960 30.9%
Accord Coupe EX-L Navi 5MT $33,190 Accord Coupe EX-L 5-Spd MT w/ Navigation System $27,360 30.49%
Accord Coupe EX-L Navi 5AT $34,390 Accord Coupe EX-L 5-Spd AT w/ Navigation System $28,160 31.37%
Accord Coupe EX-L V6 6MT $35,490 Accord Coupe EX-L V-6 6-Spd MT $28,310 34.85%
Accord Coupe EX-L V6 5AT $35,490 Accord Coupe EX-L V-6 5-Spd AT $28,310 34.85%
Accord Coupe EX-L V6 Navi 6MT $38,290 Accord Coupe EX-L V-6 6-Spd MT w/ Navigation System $30,510 35%
Accord Coupe EX-L V6 Navi 5AT $38,290 Accord Coupe EX-L V-6 5-Spd AT w/ Navigation System $30,510 35%
Accord Coupe LX-S 5-Spd MT $21,860
2008 Honda > Pilot
Canadian Trims Canada MSRP US Trims US MSRP Price Markup
Pilot SE-L RES $45,520 Pilot SE 4WD 5-Spd AT $32,995 48.4%
Pilot EX-L NAVI $46,690 Pilot EX-L 4WD 5-Spd AT w/ Navigation System $35,645 40.9%
Pilot LX 2WD $36,280
Pilot LX 4WD $39
RIV & TC, please don't start playing with Canada's language laws. This person (does not have direct access to a computer) cannot be responsible for your mistakes. An amnesty letter will be sought. We discussed this evening and this buyer will not accept any English correspondance or Englis phone calls - we do not have to go to the English copy to get the real list (if there is such a thing). When you talk about messing up - RIV is the best - mix in a bit of language negligence on top of that. RIV has called this person and advised him on his phone in English that he must export his vehicle - Please take notice that any correspondance that you have sent so far has 0 value if not in French.
If Edmunds would please allow this small post in French. I promise that I won't do this too often.
A tous, vous avez le droit de recevoir toute votre correspondence (écrite et parlée) en Francais. N'accepter pas que le RVI vous traite autrement et si vous avez besoin d'aide svp communiquer avec moi. serge@bergeron.ca
If a car company can stop imports because of fake safety rules - maybe we can stop these eviction exports on some of our Human Rights rules that each Canadian consumer has.
All we want is to buy cars reasonably priced; firstly in Canada and if that's not available the USA will do. :mad:
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your inquiry.
At the moment, we are waiting to hear back from Transport Canada
regarding the importability of your vehicle.
We understand that there has been some ambiguity regarding the List of
Admissible Vehicles from the United States, as it is subject to revision
without notification. We request however at this time that you remain
patient while we wait for the involved parties to provide definitive
answers regarding these issues. We are expecting a resolution within the
next few days. As soon as it is released to the press, it will be posted
on our website www.riv.ca. We recommend that you monitor our website
during the week for an update.
In the meantime, please forward any comments you have regarding the
vehicles' admissibility to the original equipment manufacturer.
Thank you for your indulgence.
I find it infuriating that they keep bringing up the subject to revision clause. If a person acts on information that is current at the time, how can they (TC) not be bound by it? In my case, I contacted RIV many times by phone and the reps told me that my vehicle was admissible. They certainly did not say that what they were telling me was subject to change without notification.
Why would they tell you to forward your comments to the manufacturer; I thought it was TC's mandate to determine the admissibility of vehicles. They know damn well that the manufacturers are not sympathetic to our cause and will do anything in their power to stop us.
I am also curious as to how you recieved a written response from RIV, they certainly have not responded to any of my emails.
Considering all this headache I think it makes more sense to get an 07 model (at a discount) and avoid all this pain.
Audi is offering up to $15,000 cash incentive for select 2007 models.
"Why would they tell you to forward your comments to the manufacturer; I thought it was TC's mandate to determine the admissibility of vehicles."
You have to remember that Transport Canada (and NHTSA in the US) manage compliance to applicable regulations by exception. That is, the onus is on the vehicle manufacturer (in each country) to have done their testing and due dilligence and state that the given vehicle meets all applicable regulations for sale in the appropriate country. Transport Canada (and NHTSA, as applicable) typically get involved only when there is some suspicion that a vehicle claimed to be compliant in a country is not, and may conduct an investigation. Neither agency has the resources to test every vehicle model for compliance to every single regulation.
We have a situation where the US arm of a given manufacturer certifies that the vehicle meets all applicable US regulations, for a vehicle intended for sale in the US. Nothing can compel that manufacturer to certify that the same US-market vehicle also meets all Canadian regulations. Why should they? They already have perfectly good Canadian-market vehicles that they've self-certified meet ALL Canadian regulations.... :P
boy oh boy
This is turning into a real mess!!!
Thanks much for the info. So on the MSO, it actually indicates the name of the owner and everything? Reason why I'm interested is I'm hoping I don't need to get the car titled before exporting.
please refer to post 1649, page 166.
We need a few more details on your case in order to help.
Jan was able help to resolve 3 cases today...
we are picking up all sorts of issues from other folks out there! Join the team with Serge, Robert and Jan.
If you want more info on the MSO, check out: http://www.dmvnv.com/pdfforms/regtitle.pdf
The details on the MSO start of the 20th page of this 94 page document.
Dan
I don't believe they can legally charge you extra tax for the Canadian "Market value" of the car.