If you lay you hand on top of the center armrest and let your fingers curl under the front edge, you can feel a lever. Just pull up on it with your fingers and slide the armrest forward. It slides forward all the way over that little compartment where you can put your cell phone - infact in your cell phone is in that compartment, you really need to slide the armrest back in order to be able to get to it easily. I am assuming all models of the Avalon have that feature - I have the Limited. (I think I said console in my original post, but I meant the armrest. Sorry about that.
I pay $25 + tax at the local Toyota dealer for an oil & filter change. At that prioce it doesn't pay to do it yourself or go to anywhere else. At the dealer you are certain (hopefully) that the correct parts are being used. I've been using the same dealer for 25 years. Never had problems.
According to the wiring diagram, both power outlets are connected to the Accessory line, so are no longer powered once you turn off the ignition and open a door.
Even if these sockets were "live" all the time, a cell phone would have no chance a depleting the car battery in 24 hours. Maybe, and just maybe it might deplete it in 24 days, but I still think the current consumption of the cell phone is still measured around 280 milliamps, and that's virtually NOTHING for the massive car battery. It could probably go much longer.
jjr1 . . . this is a hard question for me to answer, because: -1- I have not actually heard your engine, and, -2- while I have rebuilt an engine before, I do not consider myself an expert in this area.
Those disclaimers aside, I can share my OPINIONS with you, and tell you what I would probably do in similar circumstances.
My engine makes more noise than any 6 cylinder Camry or Accord I have heard, but does not seem to make more noise than other Avalons. So my conditions are somewhat different from yours. I am concerned about this noise and how it might impact longevity of the engine. I will purchase the Toyota extended warranty, change my oil and oil filter every 3000 miles, and keep detailed maintenance records. Then I will have effectively transferred the risk to Toyota and/or the Warranty company. The net answer: Yes I am concerned; but I am not worried about it.
Now . . . to your case. If my engine noise was clearly worse than other Avalons, here are the additional steps I would take for "peace of mind": -1- Be sure that someone representing Toyota agrees that your engine is more noisy than typical. Get his/her name and title. If two or more persons agree, so much the better. -2- Write a letter to Toyota, and cite the names and titles of those persons who concur with your assessment. Ask for an explanation, in writing, of why your engine is more noisy than others. Mention that you are dissapointed with Toyota and have been advised by others to seek Lemon Law intervention (no threats . . . be nice). -3- Ask if Toyota is willing to extend the factory warranty on the engine at no cost to you. -4- Consider purchasing the extended warranty if you are planning to keep the car beyond the 36K/3year factory warranty.
Be polite to the Toyota reps and ask them what they would do if this was their car. No yelling, screaming, or threats are recommended. You want them to be on your side. If they sense it will be impossible to restore your faith in and loyalty to Toyota, they will not be motivated to help you.
I'm not so sure that an extended warranty would be a wise investment if your main concern is the engine: it's covered for 60,000 miles/6 years as part of the powertrain coverage.
What is the oil change interval recommended in the owners manual for normal and severe schedules? Changing the oil even more frequently than the severe schedule recommends certainly is a waste and won't benefit anything or fix the engine if there is a defect causing that noise.
I wish i were mererly "brand bashing"! But I am not. I AM still waiting to hear from the dealer about the engineer from toyota. This engineer is going to try to fix the following problems: 1-The front passenger backrest moves vigorously and makes noises at the slightest disturbance. 2-The headliner, toward the front of the vehicle on the drivers side, right by his ear is plagued by an intermittant rattle. These two items have been "fixed" 5 times so far! 3-There is a rattle coming from behind the stereo system. 4-There is an equally annoying squeak coming from the area directly behind the glove box. These items are the newest issues. 5-there is a terrible squeak coming from the rear seat. Originally it was diagnosed as coming from one seat reclined and the other not. I brought the car back 2 weeks later with the same problem It was "quieted down". 2 weeks later, same problem. Am I a little miffed? Yes I am! I expect better from Toyota-especially at the $30k price point. these issues started at approximately mile 2k. The vehicle now has 13k miles on it. Since that time not only have the original sqeaks and rattles not been fixed, but new ones have joined them. Am I shocked at this lack of quality? Yes I am. I a bought this car based on Toyoa's reputation for quality. Every check that has been written for the car has been perfect. I don't think I am out of line by asking that the car doesn't sqeak or rattle. Now if this is brand bashing, then I am guilty as charged. I don't think so.
Good point. You could be worry-free for up to 6 years/60K miles without an extended warranty, depending on how Toyota interprets their legal powertrain warranty document. I am not a lawyer, so have no idea what it really says.
What is the oil change interval recommended in the owners manual for normal and severe schedules?
My Avalon came with a "Owners manual supplement" indicating a 5000 mile schedule for "normal" service and 3000 miles for "severe" service. They defined "severe" by several attributes, one of them cited as "20% of trips being less than 10 miles". The car is used for a weekday commute of 9 miles, so would be considered subject to severe use by Toyota's definiition. The same supplment warns, in no uncertain terms, that if you fail to adhere to the appropriate schedule, your warranty will not cover an engine problem. It would seem the the burden of proof (of compliance)lies with the owner. I don't know how an owner could prove that his/her use met the "normal" definitions.
Allowing the benefit of the doubt, brand bashing may not be the case, but it had all the earmarks. Admittedly, squeaks and rattles can be annoying. However putting them in perspective these are relatively minor complaints. They certainly don't warrant the level of invective displayed. If similarly aggressive attitudes get carried over into the service desk, getting satisfaction won't be helped much. It does appear that the dealer is trying hard to correct your complaints. Maybe a little sugar might help, or if all else fails even another dealer? Fixing complaints like those shouldn't be impossible. They just aren't. Assuming they will eventually get fixed, you will undoubtedly find your Avalon meets expectations. Your situation, if it's as you claim, is most definitely an exception and not cause to characterize all Avs as being like that. Hopefully, you will be able to get back to your much more positive comment expressed in your post #375 on July 10 of this year: "By the way, I am VERY HAPPY with the car!"
If you're not "brand-bashing" then you are at least guilty of extreme prejudicial behavior since you are generalizing about ALL Avalons and Toyotas based upon your own unusual and unique situation
I'm surprised that both the normal and severe oil change schedules on a car as modern as a 2005 or 2006 Avalon are that frequent. Many cars now have even the severe schedule less frequent than every 5000 miles. That was part of the original owners manual or was that supplement from the dealer? Maybe Toyota engines are still sludge-prone and they are trying to avert that problem again by making super-frequent oil change requirements. Of course, you do not have to "prove" that you met the normal definition. They would have to prove you didn't and I'm sure they don't want to risk the PR nightmare of erroneously accusing owners of severe driving.
Had to reboot my Avalon again today. After driving in S5 for a week without problems, today it REFUSED to kick down or drop down to a lower gear. I stopped, rebooted and the transmission was fine after that. I am now convinced that the new Avalon has joined the age of buggy software where vendors test their software out in the field at user's expense. I'm just waiting for the Blue Screen Of Death now. This is NOT progress.
jaxs1 . . . Your observation is correct. Toyota's recommended intervals used to be higher; the "severe" schedule was 5000 miles. I think the infamous V6 "sludge" problems they suffered through changed their thinking. They don't want to reimburse any more customers for engine repairs.
The manual supplement is a separate booklet but referred to in the maintenance section of the regular owners manual. As to whether it is published by Toyota of the dealer . . . hard to tell. It looks like a factory publication, but the Dealers name and address is printed on the inside cover (not a sticker).
Toyota's tactic on denied warranty claim court cases has been to produce an oil analysis performed in their own lab, which they cite as scientific proof that oil chamge intervals were not done per recommendations. So the owner effectively ends up with the burden of proof. You can produce your own oil analysis, then pay for the two lab techs to fight it out, or produce proof that you followed the "severe" schedule. Otherwise, you lose. There is lots of case history in this area. The manufacturers' don't seem to worry about PR when only a single plaintiff is involved.
You know what? I WAS very happy with the car. I STILL WANT TO BE very happy with the car. I have been kind and sweet. The GM/owner is a friend of mine. even if the car remains unfixed he will remain a friend of mine. Only once did I lose iit. I lost it when I came to pick up my car to find that the front passenger fender had been keyed. Then I walked off the lot and returned to my lowner Matrix-squeak and rattle free by the way-and firmly told them to call me when this was repaired. Two days later I get a call. I was told that my car was ready. After five days of paying for an Avalon and driving a Matrix, I anticipated a sqeak and rattle free ride. It was beautiful! Until 2 days later. Same squeaks and rattles with new ones behind the stereo and behind the glove box. Now here I am, two weeks after being told that an engineer was coming to the dealership, still waiting for the phone call. I have pleasently left two calls, one last week and one this morning with the service manager. I am planning a long(er) road trip with my spouse and would love to take a squeak and rattle free Avalon. If my check for payment was 2 weeks late, especially without explanation, there would be an inquiry. If every payment, except for the first one was imperfect-i.e. for less than said amount, I would be contacted. All I want is for my car to perform as accurately as my payments. My checks didn't bounce. My seat shouldn't either.
Your proof is the oil change receipts. Oil change analysis is at their expense and if you have receipts showing you changed the oil and filter every 5,000 miles, doing an oil analysis would be pointless. It cannot prove whether you did 10 mile trips 16% of the time or 23% of the time. 5,000 miles oil and filter changes are pretty frequent on a modern car already. If you change the oil and filter every 5,000 miles and it still gets sludge, there is is really a severe design flaw in the car, when BMWs, Hondas and most other newer cars do not have this issue. It is not normal to expect sludge to develop between 3001 miles and 5000 miles. If it was, changing the oil at 3000 miles or less is a Band Aid for some other issue they need to address. If there is a gas leak in the fuel tank, you fix it, not keep buying more gas more often.
Thanks for the reply. I have an '06 Limited. Yesterday, while out driving, I did exactly as you explained and found that the armrest did, in fact, slide forward. My wife likes it in this postition, but I actually prefer keeping it all the way back. But that's one of the nice things about this car--it does give you some options in how to set it up. Now if only someone would come up with a way to bypass the navigation lock-out while under way. :P
I am niether. I am expressing an opinion as allowed by the constitution. Look, we are talking about a car not a person. If you love Toyotas then bully for you! Go buy one or two or three of them. I liked them too. I was going to buy a Land Cruiser or a 4 Runner. After my experience with the top of the line Avalon, I have to rethink my purchase decision. Am I now prejediced toward Toyota because I am hesitant to buy another one after buying one know as "the rattle trap"? If that is prjedice then fine! To hell with it! I am prejidiced. What is next? Am I a "car bigot"? Am I bashing Japaese people? Am I preventing American assembly line workers who put together my Avalon an opportunity to live in harmony? No no no a thousand times no! I am just expressing my thoughts on a stupid car based on my experience.
Your advice is well intended and reflects common sense. Unfortunately, common sense and the American legal system are not congruent. Toyota (and other auto manufactuters) have used their oil analysis results as proof that oil change intervals were not appropriate to severity of use. This forces the plaintiff to either dispute the lab results or prove they followed the factory "severe" schedule. Even if you have all of your receipts, and service was done at your Dealer per the "nornal use" schedule, their lawyer will simply point out that the oil analysis results indicate your use was actually "severe" (by Toyota standards), so you followed the wrong schedule. Severe use typcally leaves more fuel, dirt, and/or moisture in the sample.
I don't see Toyota wasting their lawyers time on individual oil change cases like that. Maybe if the owner claimed they "lost" their receipts or said they changed the oil themself and had no proof. They will hurt themselves with an antagonistic attitude especially if they are wrong. If you change your oil at 3,000 miles out of fear of Toyota's lawyers when you know you are within the normal driving description, then there is a problem. They have to prove whatever warranty issue was directly caused by the difference between a 3000 mile and 5000 mile oil change. Please point to a case where this has happened. If they could prove this, they are also proving how poorly designed the car is to not be able to make it even 5,000 miles without engine damage.
This is a negative aspect of the car, not just the cost of the oil change, but the inconvenience of such frequent trips for oil changes.
A set of button pushes can override the navigation lockout on most 2005/6 Toyota/Lexus NAVs until the next time the vehicle is restarted by pushing the buttons in the following order: menu > volume > top left area of screen, bottom left area, top left, bottom left > override ((hold for several seconds until override is highlighted and beep occurs) > back. Destinations can then be entered while moving. I am not sure if this will be the same button sequence procedure for the Avalon, but I have heard this has worked on the Sienna and 4Runner.
As a previous owner of a '97 avalon I regularly changed the oil and had no "sludge" problems. I knew only one person who had "sludge" but that person leased a Sienna and didn't change the oil for 22,000 miles.
He then tried to say that he changed the oil himself but the cat was already out of the bag. He got rid of the problem he caused by turning the lease in for a Montego.
This statement: "Toyota (and other auto manufactuters) have used their oil analysis results as proof that oil change intervals were not appropriate to severity of use" is a complete misrepresentation of fact! I would challenge anyone to show when and where this has ever happened, that is, one oil analysis result has been used as proof to determine a vehicle was subjected to "severe" use and oil change intervals weren't sufficient. It's never happened. Not only that, another statement made in this insane discussion is totally incorrect. If an owner claims a damaged engine is the fault of the automaker and decides to try his case in court, the burden of proof is on the owner, not the automaker. You guys are making it sound like going to court is a cakewalk. Wrong!! I am curious why all this theorizing is happening when nobody's had an issue to theorize about anyway. A "normal" oil change interval of 5000 miles makes all kinds of sense, as does a 3000 mile interval for "severe" use. What's the problem with that? If you're driving short distances regularly it would be foolish not to change oil more frequently. The sludge issue you are talking about is summed up very properly by a statement made by another: "As a previous owner of a '97 avalon I regularly changed the oil and had no "sludge" problems. I knew only one person who had "sludge" but that person leased a Sienna and didn't change the oil for 22,000 miles." That story tells it all about the sludge fiasco. I know a guy who never changed oil and managed to convince Toyota to replace two engines,. He often bragged about it!! I wonder how many more of those scams happened when sludge was blamed on the automakers? I would also like to know what alternatives are offered by those who make statements like "common sense and the American legal system are not congruent." Maybe we should replace it with vigilante justice??
Make sure that "owners manual suppliment" wasn't published by the dealer, or a dealer group, rather than the actual manufacturer. Local Lexus dealer tried that once.
Besides speaking clearly in standard English, you might try waiting a split second after you press the talk button and hear the beep. These kinds of systems try to record background noise and then filter that from the recorded voice. If you don't give it a split second after the beep it may not be able to distinguish your voice from the background noise or, even worse, the first part of your command may not be captured. Let me know if this suggestion helps.
Toyota voice command systems only support English (even if you set the language to French or Spanish). So it's pretty funny if you get a better response if you speak French!
Good advice. I do wait for the special symbol to appear in the display before speaking. However, neither a service rep or a salesman at the Dealer had any better luck than we did, even with the engine not running (virtually no background noise to contend with).
The claim may have been an urban legend passed around the internet. Even if a site mentioning it is found, you may never find the original source.
3K/5K intervals are pretty inconvenient. I wonder why Toyota didn't go with synthetic oil from the factory if they believe sludge will develop within 5,000 miles on conventional oil.
That claim IS, unquestionably, an urban legend, aka an unsubstantiated rumor probably started by sludge advocates. There is not, and never will be any sort of legal precedent to that effect. 3K/5K intervals are pretty standard oil change intervals, common throughout the industry. Why would anyone suggest otherwise? Anyone who knows anything about breaking in new engines will tell you why synthetic oil isn't used in a new engine. Please advise how any claim can be made: "Toyota believes sludge will develop within 5K miles on conventional oil?" That is an irrational statement.
Getting alot of snow and 10 degree temperatures up here in N.E.Ohio. My wife tells me that she ain't drivin the Avalon no more as the wipers and windshield are icing up, especially at the corners of the windshield. She thinks this problem is happening because there is only 1 small vent in the center of the dash. This is a 2006 limited with no other problems. Anybody else having this problem? The car is due for service on Dec 17. I will have dealer install winter blades and check system out. Till than she can drive her Honda Odyssey, which by the way is a awesome winter vehicle.
Does your owners manual specify any minimum mileage you need before synthetic oil is used?
3K/5K intervals were the norm in the past, but most modern engines run so much cleaner than 10 or 20 years ago that the oil doesn't get contaminated and broken down in such a short period and so they recommend their oil changes in 7500, 10K, or even longer intervals. Apparently, not for Toyota though, so they still recommend very frequent oil changes. People used to need to change spark plugs in all cars every year or so in the old days also. Imagine if the Avalon also required yearly "tune-ups" in this day and age!
The oil change (my first)was free for attending the open house so I don't know how much it would have cost. They rotated my tires and washed the car on my next visit--also for free. This service center is out west and away from the heavy traffic near Kendall Toyota.
I don't think Toyota is REQUIRING oil change at 3k/5k, but instead recommending it. As for why they do it, it could be anyone's guess, but some that I can think of are: to increase dealer profit (they actually make most of their money from service), or to ward off the lawsuits (if there is ever any), to reduce the number of scam complains (as stated before by someone in this forum).
I owned a '97 and two '01 Avalons, and neither developed any sludge problem at 5k regular service. From a previous anecdote, the owner didn't develop sludge until 22k miles. Give or take a few thousand miles, I'd say it's safe to drive 10k miles without an oil change. Whether that's good for your engine or whether you want to do that with conventional oil (vs. synthetic) is up to you.
Remember: Recommendation does not equte to requirement. Recommending oil change at 3k/5k doesn't mean the engine cannot take more abuse.
If the manufacturers manual says it, it is a requirement for warranty coverage. Most likely Toyota is scared of a sludge fiasco reoccurance, so are being extra conservative or else the is a design problem causing the oil to breakdown faster than most competing modern passenger car engines. The dealer's service departments also have their own recommendations for additional maintenance services above and beyond the factory requirements. These extra services are to pad profits.
So when does Mobiloil speak for ANY automaker? When does Mobil produce Owner Manuals for automakers, most who use the 5K/3K standard for oil change intervals? No automaker suggests synthetic need or need not be used at any time or after any interval. All they do is specify minimum specs for oil to be used in their engines, and suggested intervals for regular oil changes--3K and 5K. Mobil, to my knowledge, doesn't make automobiles, and Toyota (or any automaker for that matter) doesn't make oil. In order to show any evidenceto the contrary it would have to be shown that a 5K or 3K oil change interval is uncommon in the automaking industry. Most automakers use that standard these days. You should ask Toyota (or any other automaker to my knowledge )why they don't recommend synthetic oil in a new engine, instead of publically claiming that they maybe should or have to because of sludge, or inferring that they don't because of break-in needs. Those kinds of charges and accusations are unsupported and just plain inflammatory. I feel this is attempting to make a case that the sludge issue is still an issue. Well it isn't, and a strong case can be made that the whole thing was overplayed in the first place, and then became an easy out for anyone who wanted to scam Toyota into a new engine for any reason. Statements like: "Most likely Toyota is scared of a sludge fiasco reoccurance"?? All I can suggest is the one who said that is free to express opinion, but any similarity to fact is purely coincidental!!
If you have the automatic climate control system it will "want" to stay in cooling mode, system airflow from the dash outlets or dash and footwell combined, whenever the cabin air temperature is within +/- 3F of your temperature setpoint comfort zone.
CAUTION!
There is NO warming airflow to the interior surface of the windshield in this mode.
If you wish to keep the windshield clear of condensate, fog, or even external icing, you will need to manually switch the system to footwell airflow mode, or footwell and windshield combined mode.
At the temperatures you describe you will most likely need to leave the system in windshield defrost/defog/demist mode and turn up the temperature setpoint to the point of discomfort for yourself if you wish to keep the windshield free of interior for and/or exterior icing.
NipponDenso, Denso US, the suppliers of most asian vehicle's HVAC systems, actually has a patent concerning the bi-level airflow method they use, cool airflow at/near the top half of the cabin and warm airflow at/near the floor.
The design makes it extremely difficult to get warm airflow to the windshield without discomforting yourself in the process. But better to be discomforted with HOT airflow deflected from the windshield than blinded by a fogged over windshield.
Do you see any auto manufacturer anywhere that contradicts the info on the Mobil site by saying "do not use synthetic oil before 'break-in' (or listed minimum milage) is completed" on any currently produced US-spec car? Is that printed in the 2005 or 2006 Toyota Avalon owners manual?
If I paid for my Avalon what you paid for that Porsche, I would expect free oil changes as long as I owned it, regardless of what oil change interval the manual says. I'll also wager that you don't wait that long between changes either. If you do, it's a big risk and I bet you know that.
According to the letter I recieved from Lexus the engine in my 2001 AWD RX300 is one of the many that are subject to the sludging problem. I have seen no indication of any sludging as yet and frankly I don't expect to. I change my oil and filter every 7500 miles just like the owners manual states and I have always used Mobil 1.
I pretty sure that I have read somewhere that Toyota made a minor design change in the subject engines to prevent oil sludging in newer models and for me, with the letter and the design change, the sludging issue was/is VERY real.
So what's your point? Is it relevant one way or the other? The original charge was that Toyota SHOULD use synthetic to protect their engines, and now you're saying there's nothing said about it in their manual--so therefor it's irrelevant, right? Your research seems to support that. Look, if you don't like Toyota for whatever reason, that's perfectly ok, BUT why hang around and keep reminding all of us why you feel that way?? The sludge thing may be real to some, but it sure seemed that most of it was overhyped by many who saw it as an opportunity to get out from under not bothering to change oil. I also think it's proven as such because it died as quickly as it arrived. No matter though, It certainly doesn't seem to be a problem these days with the Avalon, or any other Toyota/Lexus product. What's the point of rehashing ancient history?? I don't care whose vehicle we like, regular oil changes are the best way to ensure long engine life, period! Who is going to dispute that?
Kudos for being attentive to regular oil changes. That's yet another testimonial to the premise that it's the best and most cost effective way to avoid engine problems. The money's still on the table that you don't wait until 15K miles to change oil and filter on your C4!! If you do, then shame on you.
I am pointing out that 3,000 mile oil changes with Toyota's lawyers out to get you with oil analysis results they control and ready to void your warranty at the drop of a hat if you cannot "prove" that you drove over 10 mile trips 80.1% of the time if you didn't follow the severe maintenance schedule is a negative aspect of buying an Avalon.
Comments
Does the Avalon automatically cut off power to this area when the car is turned off?
Thanks,
Steve
Do you think the lifter like noise is anything to worry about. Thanks for your thoughts.
Steve
-1- I have not actually heard your engine, and,
-2- while I have rebuilt an engine before, I do not consider myself an expert in this area.
Those disclaimers aside, I can share my OPINIONS with you, and tell you what I would probably do in similar circumstances.
My engine makes more noise than any 6 cylinder Camry or Accord I have heard, but does not seem to make more noise than other Avalons. So my conditions are somewhat different from yours. I am concerned about this noise and how it might impact longevity of the engine. I will purchase the Toyota extended warranty, change my oil and oil filter every 3000 miles, and keep detailed maintenance records. Then I will have effectively transferred the risk to Toyota and/or the Warranty company. The net answer: Yes I am concerned; but I am not worried about it.
Now . . . to your case.
If my engine noise was clearly worse than other Avalons, here are the additional steps I would take for "peace of mind":
-1- Be sure that someone representing Toyota agrees that your engine is more noisy than typical. Get his/her name and title. If two or more persons agree, so much the better.
-2- Write a letter to Toyota, and cite the names and titles of those persons who concur with your assessment. Ask for an explanation, in writing, of why your engine is more noisy than others. Mention that you are dissapointed with Toyota and have been advised by others to seek Lemon Law intervention (no threats . . . be nice).
-3- Ask if Toyota is willing to extend the factory warranty on the engine at no cost to you.
-4- Consider purchasing the extended warranty if you are planning to keep the car beyond the 36K/3year factory warranty.
Be polite to the Toyota reps and ask them what they would do if this was their car. No yelling, screaming, or threats are recommended. You want them to be on your side. If they sense it will be impossible to restore your faith in and loyalty to Toyota, they will not be motivated to help you.
Changing the oil even more frequently than the severe schedule recommends certainly is a waste and won't benefit anything or fix the engine if there is a defect causing that noise.
My Avalon came with a "Owners manual supplement" indicating a 5000 mile schedule for "normal" service and 3000 miles for "severe" service. They defined "severe" by several attributes, one of them cited as "20% of trips being less than 10 miles". The car is used for a weekday commute of 9 miles, so would be considered subject to severe use by Toyota's definiition. The same supplment warns, in no uncertain terms, that if you fail to adhere to the appropriate schedule, your warranty will not cover an engine problem.
It would seem the the burden of proof (of compliance)lies with the owner. I don't know how an owner could prove that his/her use met the "normal" definitions.
Maybe a little sugar might help, or if all else fails even another dealer?
Fixing complaints like those shouldn't be impossible. They just aren't. Assuming they will eventually get fixed, you will undoubtedly find your Avalon meets expectations. Your situation, if it's as you claim, is most definitely an exception and not cause to characterize all Avs as being like that.
Hopefully, you will be able to get back to your much more positive comment expressed in your post #375 on July 10 of this year: "By the way, I am VERY HAPPY with the car!"
That was part of the original owners manual or was that supplement from the dealer?
Maybe Toyota engines are still sludge-prone and they are trying to avert that problem again by making super-frequent oil change requirements.
Of course, you do not have to "prove" that you met the normal definition. They would have to prove you didn't and I'm sure they don't want to risk the PR nightmare of erroneously accusing owners of severe driving.
I stopped, rebooted and the transmission was fine after that.
I am now convinced that the new Avalon has joined the age of buggy software where vendors test their software out in the field at user's expense.
I'm just waiting for the Blue Screen Of Death now.
This is NOT progress.
The manual supplement is a separate booklet but referred to in the maintenance section of the regular owners manual. As to whether it is published by Toyota of the dealer . . . hard to tell. It looks like a factory publication, but the Dealers name and address is printed on the inside cover (not a sticker).
Toyota's tactic on denied warranty claim court cases has been to produce an oil analysis performed in their own lab, which they cite as scientific proof that oil chamge intervals were not done per recommendations. So the owner effectively ends up with the burden of proof. You can produce your own oil analysis, then pay for the two lab techs to fight it out, or produce proof that you followed the "severe" schedule. Otherwise, you lose. There is lots of case history in this area. The manufacturers' don't seem to worry about PR when only a single plaintiff is involved.
Oil change analysis is at their expense and if you have receipts showing you changed the oil and filter every 5,000 miles, doing an oil analysis would be pointless. It cannot prove whether you did 10 mile trips 16% of the time or 23% of the time.
5,000 miles oil and filter changes are pretty frequent on a modern car already. If you change the oil and filter every 5,000 miles and it still gets sludge, there is is really a severe design flaw in the car, when BMWs, Hondas and most other newer cars do not have this issue.
It is not normal to expect sludge to develop between 3001 miles and 5000 miles. If it was, changing the oil at 3000 miles or less is a Band Aid for some other issue they need to address.
If there is a gas leak in the fuel tank, you fix it, not keep buying more gas more often.
I have an '06 Limited. Yesterday, while out driving, I did exactly as you explained and found that the armrest did, in fact, slide forward. My wife likes it in this postition, but I actually prefer keeping it all the way back. But that's one of the nice things about this car--it does give you some options in how to set it up. Now if only someone would come up with a way to bypass the navigation lock-out while under way. :P
Toyota (and other auto manufactuters) have used their oil analysis results as proof that oil change intervals were not appropriate to severity of use. This forces the plaintiff to either dispute the lab results or prove they followed the factory "severe" schedule. Even if you have all of your receipts, and service was done at your Dealer per the "nornal use" schedule, their lawyer will simply point out that the oil analysis results indicate your use was actually "severe" (by Toyota standards), so you followed the wrong schedule. Severe use typcally leaves more fuel, dirt, and/or moisture in the sample.
If you change your oil at 3,000 miles out of fear of Toyota's lawyers when you know you are within the normal driving description, then there is a problem.
They have to prove whatever warranty issue was directly caused by the difference between a 3000 mile and 5000 mile oil change.
Please point to a case where this has happened.
If they could prove this, they are also proving how poorly designed the car is to not be able to make it even 5,000 miles without engine damage.
This is a negative aspect of the car, not just the cost of the oil change, but the inconvenience of such frequent trips for oil changes.
He then tried to say that he changed the oil himself but the cat was already out of the bag. He got rid of the problem he caused by turning the lease in for a Montego.
Bottom line - DON'T TRUST TRADE INs!!!!!!
I would challenge anyone to show when and where this has ever happened, that is, one oil analysis result has been used as proof to determine a vehicle was subjected to "severe" use and oil change intervals weren't sufficient. It's never happened.
Not only that, another statement made in this insane discussion is totally incorrect. If an owner claims a damaged engine is the fault of the automaker and decides to try his case in court, the burden of proof is on the owner, not the automaker. You guys are making it sound like going to court is a cakewalk. Wrong!!
I am curious why all this theorizing is happening when nobody's had an issue to theorize about anyway.
A "normal" oil change interval of 5000 miles makes all kinds of sense, as does a 3000 mile interval for "severe" use. What's the problem with that? If you're driving short distances regularly it would be foolish not to change oil more frequently.
The sludge issue you are talking about is summed up very properly by a statement made by another: "As a previous owner of a '97 avalon I regularly changed the oil and had no "sludge" problems. I knew only one person who had "sludge" but that person leased a Sienna and didn't change the oil for 22,000 miles." That story tells it all about the sludge fiasco. I know a guy who never changed oil and managed to convince Toyota to replace two engines,. He often bragged about it!! I wonder how many more of those scams happened when sludge was blamed on the automakers?
I would also like to know what alternatives are offered by those who make statements like "common sense and the American legal system are not congruent." Maybe we should replace it with vigilante justice??
Toyota voice command systems only support English (even if you set the language to French or Spanish). So it's pretty funny if you get a better response if you speak French!
3K/5K intervals are pretty inconvenient. I wonder why Toyota didn't go with synthetic oil from the factory if they believe sludge will develop within 5,000 miles on conventional oil.
zekeman1
3K/5K intervals are pretty standard oil change intervals, common throughout the industry. Why would anyone suggest otherwise?
Anyone who knows anything about breaking in new engines will tell you why synthetic oil isn't used in a new engine.
Please advise how any claim can be made: "Toyota believes sludge will develop within 5K miles on conventional oil?"
That is an irrational statement.
Regards
Jack
Does your owners manual specify any minimum mileage you need before synthetic oil is used?
3K/5K intervals were the norm in the past, but most modern engines run so much cleaner than 10 or 20 years ago that the oil doesn't get contaminated and broken down in such a short period and so they recommend their oil changes in 7500, 10K, or even longer intervals. Apparently, not for Toyota though, so they still recommend very frequent oil changes.
People used to need to change spark plugs in all cars every year or so in the old days also. Imagine if the Avalon also required yearly "tune-ups" in this day and age!
I owned a '97 and two '01 Avalons, and neither developed any sludge problem at 5k regular service. From a previous anecdote, the owner didn't develop sludge until 22k miles. Give or take a few thousand miles, I'd say it's safe to drive 10k miles without an oil change. Whether that's good for your engine or whether you want to do that with conventional oil (vs. synthetic) is up to you.
Remember: Recommendation does not equte to requirement. Recommending oil change at 3k/5k doesn't mean the engine cannot take more abuse.
My 2001 Porsche C4 was filled with Mobil 1 at the factory and oil/filter changes are recommended every 15,000 miles.
The dealer's service departments also have their own recommendations for additional maintenance services above and beyond the factory requirements. These extra services are to pad profits.
Mobil, to my knowledge, doesn't make automobiles, and Toyota (or any automaker for that matter) doesn't make oil.
In order to show any evidenceto the contrary it would have to be shown that a 5K or 3K oil change interval is uncommon in the automaking industry. Most automakers use that standard these days.
You should ask Toyota (or any other automaker to my knowledge )why they don't recommend synthetic oil in a new engine, instead of publically claiming that they maybe should or have to because of sludge, or inferring that they don't because of break-in needs. Those kinds of charges and accusations are unsupported and just plain inflammatory. I feel this is attempting to make a case that the sludge issue is still an issue. Well it isn't, and a strong case can be made that the whole thing was overplayed in the first place, and then became an easy out for anyone who wanted to scam Toyota into a new engine for any reason.
Statements like: "Most likely Toyota is scared of a sludge fiasco reoccurance"?? All I can suggest is the one who said that is free to express opinion, but any similarity to fact is purely coincidental!!
CAUTION!
There is NO warming airflow to the interior surface of the windshield in this mode.
If you wish to keep the windshield clear of condensate, fog, or even external icing, you will need to manually switch the system to footwell airflow mode, or footwell and windshield combined mode.
At the temperatures you describe you will most likely need to leave the system in windshield defrost/defog/demist mode and turn up the temperature setpoint to the point of discomfort for yourself if you wish to keep the windshield free of interior for and/or exterior icing.
NipponDenso, Denso US, the suppliers of most asian vehicle's HVAC systems, actually has a patent concerning the bi-level airflow method they use, cool airflow at/near the top half of the cabin and warm airflow at/near the floor.
The design makes it extremely difficult to get warm airflow to the windshield without discomforting yourself in the process. But better to be discomforted with HOT airflow deflected from the windshield than blinded by a fogged over windshield.
Is that printed in the 2005 or 2006 Toyota Avalon owners manual?
According to the letter I recieved from Lexus the engine in my 2001 AWD RX300 is one of the many that are subject to the sludging problem. I have seen no indication of any sludging as yet and frankly I don't expect to. I change my oil and filter every 7500 miles just like the owners manual states and I have always used Mobil 1.
I pretty sure that I have read somewhere that Toyota made a minor design change in the subject engines to prevent oil sludging in newer models and for me, with the letter and the design change, the sludging issue was/is VERY real.
The original charge was that Toyota SHOULD use synthetic to protect their engines, and now you're saying there's nothing said about it in their manual--so therefor it's irrelevant, right? Your research seems to support that.
Look, if you don't like Toyota for whatever reason, that's perfectly ok, BUT why hang around and keep reminding all of us why you feel that way??
The sludge thing may be real to some, but it sure seemed that most of it was overhyped by many who saw it as an opportunity to get out from under not bothering to change oil. I also think it's proven as such because it died as quickly as it arrived.
No matter though, It certainly doesn't seem to be a problem these days with the Avalon, or any other Toyota/Lexus product.
What's the point of rehashing ancient history??
I don't care whose vehicle we like, regular oil changes are the best way to ensure long engine life, period!
Who is going to dispute that?
The money's still on the table that you don't wait until 15K miles to change oil and filter on your C4!! If you do, then shame on you.