I had the opportunity to see and sit inside of the new M45 last night at the Montreal Auto Show.
I am very pleased to report that in my opinion Infiniti has one more winner to add to their collection. The car is simply awesome.
I am about to finish a 3 year lease on a G35, car goes back early March. I was one of the first people here to drive the G35 in March of 2002, and was the first person to report on the brake problems. Aside from the brake problem, which Infiniti eventually stepped up to the plate on and refunded me over $ 800.00, I have not had any problems with my G35 except for the few recall notices which were taken care of. I have only had to put gas in the car and change the oil on a regular basis. I have even seriously considered replacing my G35 with a new one, but I am just not the kind of person to get the same car twice.
Much has been said here about the interior of Infiniti vehicles. My opinion on this is back in 2002 when the G35 was introduced, the exterior styling was so different and radical from the competition, it was priced lower than the competition and from a performance point of view just gave so much bang for the dollar. Model years go by so quickly that I felt that Infiniti would slowly make changes on subsequent year changes. After all if they gave us a perfect interior, what would they follow up with in the coming years. Witness the new G35 and the current interior changes. There was a gorgeous light blue G35 beside the M45 that I kept going back to look at. I still love the G35 but enough said on the G35
The M45 that I saw was a light silver with an oyster interior and was stunning. the car was fully loaded including rear passenger DVD screen hanging down from the ceiling. I think that any complaints about Infiniti's interior will disappear with a look at this car. It is Q45 material all the way and one cannot help but noticing that these cars are indeed from the same family.
The first demos will be arriving at dealerships in Canada in the first two weeks of February. I personally will be trying to do a deal on an M35.
My dealer whom was at the show and gave me a personal tour of the car while about 30 people were around the car watching and wanting in, told me that the M35 will only be available with the rosewood trim and not the titanium trim that is on the M45. I have concerns about this as I am tired of wood trim and like the metal so much more.
I also have a concern about the six cylinder 280 HP engine. First, can anyone in the know tell me if this is the same engine as the G35? Second, the M35 is a big car. I have not gone over specs on weight and dimensions yet but from sitting inside of it and staring at the outside from every angle for over 30 minutes, I am concerned that the six will not be powerful enough for this vehicle. I know that I will get to put it though the ringer in February but if anyone has anything to say in this regard, I am listening.
Prior to getting a look at the M, I have gone through the Audi A6, test drove etc.. . I cannot understand why everyone thinks that Audi's interior is the end all be all. I personally find the interior to be boring and much the same as previous years. Once again Infinti has given us something very radically different, with tons of interesting techi gizmos,a new state of the art dash that will be a head turner. One thing more about my G35. For the first 6 months I was chased down the highway by so many people wanting to look at this car and I have to say that this was a big turn on for me. One of the main reasons I will not get another one is that there are so many of them on the road now that is just does not feel special anymore.
A bit on pricing. I always lease my cars and please keep in mind that I live in Canada and we Canadians pay dearly for this privilege. The following numbers are in Canadian funds and I know my American friends will wonder if we Canadians are crazy or something to pay these types of dollars to drive a car.
A 3 year lease with nothing down on an M35 will be CAD $930.00 per month and a 4 year lease CAD $ 870.00. To these numbers we also have to add 15.5% sales tax on a monthly basis, (the price we pay for free health care. lol)
The Audi A6 that I have been researching with minimum options ( and trust me everything is extra with Audi) would be $1130.00/month providing I tender a fully refundable deposit of $11,000.00, and this is on a 42 month lease.
In my opinion, not even looking at price, the M35 wins hands down, reserving the fact that I still have to drive the M35 and make sure I like it.
The numbers for the M35 are not for the all wheel drive model, sorry I did not get them yet but will perhaps have them later. Also these amounts are without any negotiations which I don't think will do much given the new introduction and being the first on the block with this car.
One last note to this long narrative. I also test drove the Acura RL around 6 weeks ago. Lot's of gadgets, not a bad ride. was actually impressed until I asked the price and was told CAD $ 71,000.00, laughed at the salesman and told him to call me when they drop the price by $10,000.00.
But even then my opinion is that it is a very large TL. P.S. , I also own a TSX.
Ok, promise really last thing. For those considering the M35/45 keep in mind that this is a 2006 model coming out in Feb of 2005. Infiniti has seen fit to put a very large residual on this car which they should and comparable lease prices in the USA should be very favourable for those that lease early.
My G35 is a 2003 being returned in 2005, They will re-market this car as a two year old car, god help the individual that does not ask the question "When was this car put on the road?"
Answer - 3 years ago!
Any questions about what I saw last night - ask away.
Interesting stuff. The M35 is actually fairly lightweight for the segment, only about 36-3700lbs depending on which model. Granted thats a lot more than G35, but its also a lot less than porker RL's 2 tons, and most of the Germans are close or pass the 2 ton market also. The M35 wont be slow. My estimate is about 6.6-6.8 seconds, which will put it at the top of the V6 powered cars. Thanks to actual torque at reasonable rpm, the car should have no trouble keeping up with RL. Also, M35 Sport should definitely have the aluminum trim.
If thats not fast enough, the M45 will run in the mid 5s.
Nice to see you back. How many miles (or km, we can convert) on your G? I bought my G in May 02, and am pretty much as happy as you seem o be with your overall experience.
The M looks great, but I'll be keeping my G for a while longer.
Thanks for the info Lexusguy. As usual, we Canadians get different versions than you guys.
According to Infiniti brochure that I picked up at auto show, we get M35,M35xAWD, M45,M45sport,
no M35 Sport for us. Also if I understood correctly, there will be no M45xAWD as Infiniti is doing a makeover of Q45 which will come in AWD and they do not want Q45 to compete with M45.
Will keep you posted once I get to test drive,thanks for your reply.
I have 78,000 KMS on my car, divide by 1.6 for miles. Have enjoyed each and every kilometer.
I am not yet counting myself out of a new G35, If the M35 does not work out, there is not much else out there that excites me. Next few weeks will tell the story, stay tuned......
Thanks for the carconnection article, it is the first such article that I have been able to read.
The comments about the 6 cyl are encouraging. I had one of the earlier Q45's back in the mid 90's, and loved the 8 Cyl. That was when you didn't need to mortgage your house to fill up.
What I read is that there wasnt enough room for 4.5L AND awd. Where did you see this info on a Q45 replacement? I honestly expected Infiniti to just drop the car.
Sales Mgr @ my dealer told me and he is usually bang on with his info. Although the M35/45 is a real nice machine, I don't think it can compete with BMW 7 series, Lexus 430, Audi A8 etc...
Infiniti has a lot invested in the Q45 and I for one do not think that they will drop it. I think that they will take it to the next level. The M is a real nice fit for all those new buyers that will be coming out of their G35's and looking for something to upgrade to that is still within their budgets. Keep in mind that with all the new consumers that Infiniti now has, they have to seriously concentrate on Brand Loyalty and provide enough choices for those of us that wish to stay within the brand.
At the same time they have to keep pace with Lexus whom is their main rival.
The M competes with the likes of the 5, E, A6, RL, and GS.
What's going on with the Q is that Infiniti does plan to make a successor, but it just won't have the Q designation. More of a marketing thing I guess.
Although I hope they keep the Q moniker and make a good car. I think "Q45" sounds good. If they do go with another name, it'll probably come after the letter M. But nothing seems to sound right.
When you were talking to your Infiniti Manager, did he give you any indication of the MSLP of the M45? LIke you said about the Acura RL, I agree.I posted back when the RL first came out about the difference in pricing US versus Canada and that the RL was only worth about $60,000CDN.
Keep us informed. The Infiniti Manager here in Winnipeg said he would invite me down when they get their first one in. I too own one of the first G35s, took deleivery in May, 2002(April build date) and I only have 26,000KM on it as it is a second car to my Toyota.
Why wouldnt they keep the Q name? G survived from G20 to G35. M survived from M30 (even though it was a totally different car) to M45. Only J30 and I30 seem to be dead and gone.
Thx for the feedback. It appears that there is alot of subjectivity to a vehicles interior appearance. In the arena of actual leather, real wood, high-end hardware and adept finishing, different people like different things. With this said, I think very little of Audi's A6 spartan box cave of an interior. MB is a slight improvement on that.
Granted they use the higher materials but the layout and configurations are plain at best. The M45/35 on the other hand is extremely well appointed and attractive (IMO). R&T has their opinion and I'll leave it that. When did you get the Feb Automobile edition ? I'd be interested in grabbing a copy but I've just seen the Jan 05 at the news stand.
One other vehicle I have been looking at is the V8 STS. (NOT the STS-v – sadly out of my price range . . .)
For me, assuming that the dynamics of ride, NVH, etc. live up to published reports I have read thus far (R&T, C+D) – The M45 appears to be better “bang for the buck” than an STS V8.
The 1SF STS V8 MSRP is currently approx. $59K.
The M45 Sport w/Rosewood MSRP is approx. $51K. (w/Sirius also)
To equip an STS V8 (a nice car, IMHO) as I would want to drive it, I’d need to order a 1SF. This has 2 rather pricey items that I’d prefer not to have / pay for: The NAV and the Xenons. Probably $2,500 to $3,000 at list.
Since Caddy has decided that one cannot “cherry pick” options / final drive ratios, I would need the 1SF – primarily to have the additional acceleration of the 3.23 final drive ratio. I have driven a 1SE (2.73 final drive) and a 1SF. I would not be satisfied with the acceleration of the 1SE. And one cannot substitute this final drive on any other version, nor can you add options like the performance package (RPO: QAF = 18” wheel / tires package with HiPo Michelins) – available only on the 1SG. Oh, well . . .
While this is heardly an exhaustive analysis, and I would not make a decision without driving an M45, it looks promising to me.
Since the M45 Sport offers all the performance I want or need (13.8 SS Quarter at over 100 mph, for instance) provides all the luxury I require, including cooled as well as heated front seats, etc. This price seems pretty fair – and again a better “bang” for MY bucks . . .
[ $8,000 is certainly a difference large enough to catch and hold MY attention. ]
Cadillac seems to think that if you want to play with the Germans, you have to PRICE with the Germans as well. I seriously doubt Cadillac is going to get people to pony up MSRP for an STS V8, just like they cant get people to pay for SRX.
Sorry, I did not get the MSLP, to many people around on second day of Auto Show. Don't want to call my dealer as I don't want him to think that I am hot for the car. Infinti did however release pricing to their dealers, so why not give yours a call and ask the question. If you get an answer, please let us know. Thanks
As you can see, there is quite a bit of difference between the base GS and M prices in Canada. I dunno, maybe the GS comes with more standard stuff. Or maybe there is a bigger Lexus prestige premium in Canada.
My local dealer had an STS 1SF on the lot the other day with a sticker of just under $59K. They have a "no haggle" pricing system at that dealer and had posted a price of $53905 in the window. I'm waiting for both the M and the GS430 to hit the streets and then will do a comparo drive of these three. One thing that I immediately like about the M is that it comes with body side protective moldings and the other two don't. Seems to be a trend in the last two model years to go away from these moldings. I wish they wouldn't, because we are going to see some horrible "parking lot damage" on all these cars. The moldings don't prevent all of it, but they certainly help.
STS 1SE – “sticker of just under $59K. They have a "no haggle" pricing system at that dealer and had posted a price of $53905 in the window.”
Thanks. And I would further expect that if I could find a 2005 on a dealer lot at this time in 2006 that met my preferences regarding color, etc. – I expect that it could be purchased for even somewhat less.
I have no idea what a TMV / actual out the door price on an M45 with a MSRP of approx. $51K will be. Yet.
- Ray
Please and grateful to be living in such interesting times . . .
Actually its about 15. The Q has always been the black sheep of the Japanese luxury market, even Acura Legend\RL has always done better. I suppose a letter change is certainly a possibility, but as I believe you said, what letter would they go to? If I had to guess, I would say R45.
I noticed last night that the M45 acceleration reported in Road and Track is only 0.1 sec. slower (!) than a Jaguar S-Type R.
I have driven one of these – recently – for approx. 36 hours and a couple of hundred miles.
This acceleration level is impressive – to me.
- Ray
Thinking at $50K (S-Type R lists for approx. $58K) this looks like it has potential to be a performance ‘bargain’ (if that word can be considered in the context of cars this expensive?) . . .
The S-type R should be faster than it actually is. As usual, Jaguar uses very tall first gears in their auto-trannies that basically kill 0-60 performance. Wheel spinning isnt "Jaguarish".
Don't worry about the V6 performance. I have an FX35 RWD which is even heavier than the new M and these have been timed at about 7.0 0-60. The exhaust note on the FX at least is pure music. I hope the M's sound similar. Like you I am an early infiniti adopter buying the FX when it was only out for 3 months. and besides a squeaking driver seat and the infamous hatch warp have really had no problems in my 30k of driving. I am really looking forward to the M as it has all the little things I wish the FX had. (bluetooth, mp3, Voice Activation). Can't wait till these thing hit the ground. I will probably wait a year as I have that long left on my current lease unless I can get a good deal on a loaded M35 Sport :-)
Agree, there really isnt a better V6 on the planet than the Nissan VQ. Its been on the Wards 10 best engines list for years and years. The exhaust note was one of the first things I noticed about the G35 I drove, it had a lovely throaty rasp that I wish my XKR had. The M35 shouldnt have any problems at all.
Yeah that 3.5 is great. I have the Honda 3.5 in my Pilot and don't like it much. It has to rev high to get going and in an SUV that is not what you are looking for.
I think the new M will be a hit. With lexus missing the boat by bringing an Underpowered GS and MB, Audi and BMW being at least 5k more and not having all the technology. The RL is really the Competition. Like my pilot the RL does not have a lot of torque and for the price you could get into a base 45 that would blow the doors off of it. Seems like infiniti has a sure fire hit.
“The S-type R should be faster than it actually is. As usual, Jaguar uses very tall first gears in their auto-trannies that basically kill 0-60 performance. Wheel spinning isnt "Jaguarish". “
Ummm . . .
First gear in the S-Type R is 4.17 * 2.87 final drive = 11.97 to 1
“ “ Audi RS6 is 3.57 * 3.20 = 11.42 to 1
“ “ BMW M5 (Manual Trans.) is 4.23 * 3.15 = 13.32 to 1
“ “ M-B E55 AMG is 3.59 * 2.65 = 9.51 to 1
- Source: R&T comparison test June 2003
I was more impressed with what is often referred to as “roll on” acceleration. And if the M45 ‘feels’ similar to the S-Type R in this respect, it will be ‘sufficient’ – for me.
- Ray
More concerned (typically) with 40 – 70 or 80 than 0-60 . . .
I was refering to more "seat of the pants" feel than the actual ratio. I have an XKR which uses the same engine and same ZF six-speed. When you floor the gas pedal, there's a delay while the transmition decides what to do, and then you start moving. Even in first gear, the power doesnt come on until 3,000rpm+, even with all the traction computers "off" its impossible to spin the wheels. The car just takes its time in first gear. The E55 isnt like that at all.
Babaluk, Gabman et al. - I've posted before on this issue, but it's nice to see the 'market' in Acura Marketing is behaving Accurately - that is, we are all seeing the bald-faced extortion grab Acura Canada is shackling its RL with - $10K worth of 'bend over the table and take it'. That makes the debut of the M35/45 - and I'm sold already, based on the recent $CAD SRP released - even sweeter. The only thing I worry about is whether the 'Acura Pricing Disease' will spread to Inifiniti Canada's pricing on those 'bells and whistles' that don't seem to be part of the standard configs - e.g., the LDDW, or $100 worth of LCD screen and wires packaged as the "DVD Entertainment Package". And I don't think Infinti can keep a straight face and insist on 'SRP'deals, even in the Spring - not with the coming ability to 'go classier' on the GS300 or even 530AWD, and still avoid Mercedes quality/attitude issues. In any event - the G35 at around CAD$40K is a pretty good 'gross margin response' to a deluded Infiniti salespup - these fly out the door for well under $40K, on volume, with better margin squeeze for the buyer. You could do worse if they won't sell you an M. But that RL Price - WOW - Acura Canada Executive Retards Unit!
I am looking to get a midsize luxury sedan soon, and until I saw the M, I was dead set on the A6. When I told my wife that I was considering an Infiniti, she was surprised. I think she subscribes to the idea that German cars are better, which in most cases are true. When I saw the M, though, I really liked the design. My only reservations were that the interior materials would be sub-standard for the luxury class, and that Audi has more brand cachet. At this point I was still leaning toward the Audi. I recently went to the L.A. Autoshow, and sat in both cars. This is what made things extremely difficult. I thought for sure the interior would "feel" a little cheaper than the Audi, but it really doesn't. It feels solid, ergonomic, and user-friendly. Then came the issue of resale value. It is hard to compare resale values of 2 new cars, so instead, I looked at the G35, and the A4. The G beat out the A4. Now the only thing I am struggling with (which is what my wife - who is used to German build quality - is concerned about) is brand cachet. I guess I am really asking for help deciding, and figured I would come here, instead of going to the Audi forum, because I think this one is a little more realistic. Well, thanks in advance for any replies.
I had a similar decision as you did, unfortunately, the M35 didn't come out early enough. I have thus bought an A6. I am loving my car and have had no problems after 3 months. It is truly a quality ride and fun to drive.
That being said...I also have been admiring the M35 from afar. I personally have neither seen nor driven one. I suggest you wait for the test drive of each to make the decision. The quality of ride, solid feel, firmness on the road, acceleration, etc...will help you make the decision that can't be made merely by sitting inside them. I am curious to hear the final outcome of your search. I personally wouldn't worry too much about resale value as it is something one cannot even guestimate with these new models. They're both quality brands, and they both appear to be very stunning vehicles.
As liferules said, the A6 is a fine car, like almost every other car in this segment. The build quality of the M seems right up there, and reliability of Infiniti is second only to Lexus.
As far as brand cachet goes, Audi is definitely ahead of Infiniti, but the way I see it, Infiniti's star is rising, and Audi is faltering a little bit (mainly b/c of reliability issues).
Price-wise they're similar, about $50k for well-equipped AWD V6 versions.
I'd advise waiting until February, then test drive the cars back to back. It's a big purchase. Sit in them for a LONG time. Then go with what you like.
In my opinion, Audi and Infiniti both have an image problem. Audi especially now since VAG has released the Phaeton. Infiniti at least with the G35 has the best residual/resale value in its class and they also had their best sales year ever, in contrast to Audi. Infiniti also has the lowest incentives in the industry for a luxury brand. Infiniti does not yet have the cachet of Lexus and Audi does not have the cachet of BMW and Mercedes-Benz, so IMO they are a toss up. I think that the new A6 will still be at the top of its class for interior material quality. Infiniti would probably be in-line with Mercedes-Benz on the interior quality front.
I really don't buy the "German build quality issue" anymore either. I think you could make a fair case for it in the past with cars like the W140, W126, and E125 Mercedes-Benz, but that was then, and this is now. Audi has just never been close to Infiniti in terms of reliability and customer service ratings. I think if you really value interior quality and German style, go with the Audi. But otherwise if you are open to new possibilities, the new Infiniti M makes a strong case for itself in every other aspect. Check out this PDF below on reliability consistency ratings on cars 1, 3, and 5 years old, done by Consumer Reports in 2004. Infiniti is on top, even better than Lexus after the first year of ownership.
Do you plan to lease for a few years, or buy? If this is a car you plan to briefly use and then toss, either is a good possibility. If this is a car you want to hang on to, get the Infiniti. German cars make very poor long term investments. German "build quality" is something that died a long time ago. VW and Audi relability is dismal, and its not electrical or software issues as with Mercedes and BMW, Audis mechanically just fall apart when they get old. You'll notice how high Audis lease vs. buy rate is, thats why.
Infiniti, on the other hand, is pretty much a sure bet that you wont get to know your service technican more than you'd necessarily like to. I've had several friends who have owned Audis in the past, and every single one is driving a different brand now. Poor dealer experiences and poor reliability seem to make people thing twice about Audi once they've actually owned one.
I too am faced with the identical dilemma. Have to change my car in early March (currently driving a G35) and I was researching the Audi A6. I saw the M35 at the Auto show and even without a test drive am seriously leaning towards the Infiniti. Have only to wait a couple of weeks to test drive and then hope to be in the Infiniti in early March.
Like and dislikes of vehicles is a very subjective thing. What is amazing to one can be hated by another. With this said, the following are my reasons for leaning towards the M,
A) I have experience with Infiniti. Leased a Q45 back in early to mid 90's and have been driving a G35 for last 3 years. My only experience with German cars was a used 300 Diesel Benz that I had for a couple of years and a Jetta Carat that I also leased way back when. The Jetta was leased from a Volkswagon/Audi dealer. I disliked the attitude and service of this dealer so much that I got out of this car fast.
My experiences with Infiniti dealer has been nothing but excellent, given the fact that we are talking about car dealers. There were issues with my G35, a few recalls early on and the fact that my brakes and rotors have been changed 3 times. My front pads were changed after around 6,000 miles. The only thing that I can say is that although it took a bit of time, Infiniti Canada did step up to the plate and refunded me over $ 800.00 in expenses that I paid. My brakes were last changed this past summer. I currently have just about 50,000 miles on my G35 and on the last brake change they really could have made a case about wear and tear and they did not. With no questions asked they honored the warranty and changed everything free of charge.
I currently have a rust issue which you can read about in problems and solutions -G35. Again with no questions asked I have an appointment on Monday for them to fix this issue at no charge.
Here in Canada Infiniti's warranty on the M is 100,000 kilometers ( 62,500 miles), The A6 is
80,000 kilometers (50,000 miles).
c) If you equip the A6 with all the options that the M has, the price of the Audi is way way more expensive than the M . (again here in Canada,_ and also the Audi does not have all of the options that the M has like the camera that gives you a picture when you are in reverse, MP3 player,Air conditioned seats etc...
D) The M is a 2006 model whereas the A6 is a 2005. So whether you lease or buy you will have the advantage both ways of getting into a 2006 model in March of 2005. If you lease the residuals will be very high, thus lower payments, if you buy, when it comes time to sell or trade you would have gained a model year and thus get more for your car.
E) Interior Finish - I am going back to the car show this morning to take a closer look at this issue. From what I recall from my visit last Saturday, The finish of the Audi is nice and in tune with a European car such as BMW, Saab etc..
however, I found the dash to be very plain and boring. My opinion is that it is much the same year after year. The M is new and I think you will agree - State Of The Art.
F) When I service the M I am guaranteed a loaner whereas this is not provided here by Audi.
G) G35- Aside from the issues raised above, I have had no other problems with my G35, for the last 3 years I have only put gas in it and changed the oil religiously every 3,000 miles.
I am the type of person that only goes back to the dealer when there is a problem. All I can say is that I am not a very regular visitor to their service department
That's my story, stay tuned for the driving experience which should happen within the next 3 weeks.
The idea that Europe can build a better car than Japan is no longer based on reality. If you want to argue "road feel" or something like that, sure Europe has long had the edge (but I think even that is something the Japanese have pretty much gotten down with this generation of cars.) Also, Audi has never been praised as having the best of anything vs. BMW or Mercedes Benz, except for interior quality.
When it comes to bullet proof, prescision builds with hair thin panel gaps and no mis-aligned panels, Japan walks all over Europe. Japanese part defects are 1\10 of the rest of the world. I've also seen a 1990 LS400 with 560,000 miles and still going, and heard about a 300ZX with more than 750,000. I've also talked to some Toyota and Lexus techs over the years, and many have said that cars coming in with over 300K for service is a pretty normal thing.
Its a different way of thinking. The German idea of luxury seems to be to shove as many UNPROVEN techno gadgets in a car as humanly possible, and then just kind of see what happens, and make fixes as problems crop up. Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura dont do things that way, and thats why the three of them own the reliability indexes year after year.
I just went to the NAIAS yesterday and saw the M35/45, A6, and 2006 GS. They are all nice looking cars (if you can get by the new Audi grill). While unable to sit in the GS, I felt the interior of the M was stunning. The materials seem different in feel between the Infiniti and Audi, but not necessarily value/cost. The leather in the Audi was typically German, while the Infiniti was typical Japan luxury. This is also true for the dash and doors. It all depends on your own tastes.
To reveal my own bias and conflict of interest statement, you should know that I have pre-ordered the M35x.
I do have a question, though. While I know that the Audi is a mechanical AWD system and the Infiniti uses an electro-mechanical clutch, I have read others saying that the Infiniti AWD system is more advanced than what Lexus is planning for the GS. Can someone explain the difference?
As for other notes on the Auto Show, the Saturn Aura is going to be a huge winner. They said the production will be late 2006 (calendar), but it should not change much (ie 95% similar to the concept). The new Hummer H3 looks like a Grand Cherokee before the edges are sanded down. And although I am really looking forward to the loaded M35 next month, part of me says I could get the Hybrid Accord and a Pontiac Solstice for the same cost.
The M35x's system is similar to the G35x's. Its based on the ATTESA-ETS system developed for the Nissan Skyline GT-R, with road performance, rather than bad weather handling, as priority number one. Audi's torsen based (haldex on the TT) mechanical quattro system is old hat, with a fixed split that directly results in prodigious understeer (the TT is awful at that especially.)
Nissan's system normally sends all the power to the rear, and power oversteer is as simple as a quick spin of the wheel and some throttle, just as in the RWD cars. Who says AWD cant be fun? For a fixed Audi style split, you just hit the "snow" button for bad conditions.
Not to much is really known about GS300 AWD, as Lexus hasnt said much about it. I assume its related to their standard electronic setup in the RX, except that system is heavily FWD biased, and hardly ideal for a performance sedan, so I'm sure they've made changes, I just dont know what they are.
Why will the Saturn Aura be a winner, exactly? Isnt it just another Malibu rebadge with some swoopier styling?
I don't want to get too far off subject, but the Aura won some sort of people's choice at the show for "most practical" or something like that. I don't mean this will be a winner in terms of competing in any market other than mid-size family domestic sedan. For its size, it had a very roomy interior. The exterior styling was very sharp (I suppose the swoopiness caught my eye). The concept engine is a 250 hp V6 mated to a six-speed. I don't know if that is planned for the production vehicle. No one could sit in it, but the interior looked much better than standard GM.
Getting back to the Audi/Infiniti thing. My dad owned a 4000 quattro years ago and said it was the best car that he would never buy again. He was on a first name basis with the service guy. Obviously, that doesn't mean a thing given the time interval, but he won't even look at them anymore. I had a G20 years ago and never had any problems, but I haven't owned an Infiniti for the eight years since then.
They had the bourbon/graphite interior trim at the show. I am hoping (since the M I ordered has it) that it was only the bright spotlights that made my wife think the "bourbon" was orange. I personally thought it was a rich color. However, if anyone is thinking about ordering it, I would strongly suggest they see it in person. My wife really liked it on the "build your M" site, but has serious doubts after seeing it. The transmission hump in the back seat is large--something to consider if you want three across. I am 5'10" and had no problem in the side seats in back. Although I couldn't get in the GS at the Lexus site, the back seat looked smaller. (Rear seat room is important to me with three kids). The trunk was larger than expected (with th small spare), but luggage for a week-long family trip could get tight (not impossible).
I would disagree with lexusguy. It seems recently that the non-European car makers are trying to jam too much technology into their cars. Reading the Acura RL forums, there are quite a few glitches with the keyless entry, traffic-nav, etc... they're even having doors frozen shut and squeaky brakes. I haven't seen as many problems discussed in the A6 forums. Perhaps it is Acura that bit off more than they can chew...
Remember that buying a car is not just about reliability. I'd be lying if I said it doesn't matter or that I don't appreciate quality craftsmanship; but if that were all that mattered, we'd all be driving an Accord or Camry. But we're not, because we like a FUN ride. Which car is most fun to us is subjective. I personally think the Lexus cars of late are very soft on the road and boring to the eye. IMO, the only thing going for them is their reliability.
Infinity, on the other hand, may just be the automaker to bridge the gap between fun ride and reliability. At least I hope the new M does that. Certainly the G's have been a good foreshadowing.
Someone suggested not keeping an Audi out of warranty, and I think anyone who buys any $50K car out of warranty is crazy. These quality of cars are just plain expensive to repair and going "commando" is stupid.
You make a good point. I own a Lexus right now and it does everything perfectly like it was designed to do, but it isn't really fun to drive at all. It is quiet, has a nice interior, smooth ride, is ultra-reliable, and my Lexus dealer is superb. I used to own an Infiniti Q45 and that car was a blast to drive. If Lexus doesn't make their cars more fun to drive, the way things are going now, in 2 years there will be an Infiniti once again in my garage. I really miss having a car that handles well and is reliable at the same time. One thing I do like about Infiniti dealers over Lexus, is that they are a lot more laid back and easy going in my experience.
Perhaps the RL is a rare exception, but Mercedes and BMW have come under fire across several model lines, not just one in its first model year, for a variety of elctrical and mechanical issues relating to all these new "computer-do-everything" driving systems.
I agree that Lexus needs to work on their fun factor. Lexus does make a "drivers car", the IS300, but they went too far in the other direction from their typical cars, and traditional Lexus shoppers were turned off, and went to G35 instead. I'm hoping that the IS350 fixes those problems and they actually make a car adults would be willing to buy this time. The '06 GS may also be a lot more driver oriented. I am eagerly awaiting a first drive.
Comments
I am very pleased to report that in my opinion Infiniti has one more winner to add to their collection. The car is simply awesome.
I am about to finish a 3 year lease on a G35, car goes back early March. I was one of the first people here to drive the G35 in March of 2002, and was the first person to report on the brake problems. Aside from the brake problem, which Infiniti eventually stepped up to the plate on and refunded me over $ 800.00, I have not had any problems with my G35 except for the few recall notices which were taken care of. I have only had to put gas in the car and change the oil on a regular basis. I have even seriously considered replacing my G35 with a new one, but I am just not the kind of person to get the same car twice.
Much has been said here about the interior of Infiniti vehicles. My opinion on this is back in 2002 when the G35 was introduced, the exterior styling was so different and radical from the competition, it was priced lower than the competition and from a performance point of view just gave so much bang for the dollar. Model years go by so quickly that I felt that Infiniti would slowly make changes on subsequent year changes. After all if they gave us a perfect interior, what would they follow up with in the coming years. Witness the new G35 and the current interior changes. There was a gorgeous light blue G35 beside the M45 that I kept going back to look at. I still love the G35 but enough said on the G35
The M45 that I saw was a light silver with an oyster interior and was stunning. the car was fully loaded including rear passenger DVD screen hanging down from the ceiling. I think that any complaints about Infiniti's interior will disappear with a look at this car. It is Q45 material all the way and one cannot help but noticing that these cars are indeed from the same family.
The first demos will be arriving at dealerships in Canada in the first two weeks of February. I personally will be trying to do a deal on an M35.
My dealer whom was at the show and gave me a personal tour of the car while about 30 people were around the car watching and wanting in, told me that the M35 will only be available with the rosewood trim and not the titanium trim that is on the M45. I have concerns about this as I am tired of wood trim and like the metal so much more.
I also have a concern about the six cylinder 280 HP engine. First, can anyone in the know tell me if this is the same engine as the G35? Second, the M35 is a big car. I have not gone over specs on weight and dimensions yet but from sitting inside of it and staring at the outside from every angle for over 30 minutes, I am concerned that the six will not be powerful enough for this vehicle. I know that I will get to put it though the ringer in February but if anyone has anything to say in this regard, I am listening.
Prior to getting a look at the M, I have gone through the Audi A6, test drove etc.. . I cannot understand why everyone thinks that Audi's interior is the end all be all. I personally find the interior to be boring and much the same as previous years. Once again Infinti has given us something very radically different, with tons of interesting techi gizmos,a new state of the art dash that will be a head turner. One thing more about my G35. For the first 6 months I was chased down the highway by so many people wanting to look at this car and I have to say that this was a big turn on for me. One of the main reasons I will not get another one is that there are so many of them on the road now that is just does not feel special anymore.
A bit on pricing. I always lease my cars and please keep in mind that I live in Canada and we Canadians pay dearly for this privilege. The following numbers are in Canadian funds and I know my American friends will wonder if we Canadians are crazy or something to pay these types of dollars to drive a car.
A 3 year lease with nothing down on an M35 will be CAD $930.00 per month and a 4 year lease CAD $ 870.00. To these numbers we also have to add 15.5% sales tax on a monthly basis, (the price we pay for free health care. lol)
The Audi A6 that I have been researching with minimum options ( and trust me everything is extra with Audi) would be $1130.00/month providing I tender a fully refundable deposit of $11,000.00, and this is on a 42 month lease.
In my opinion, not even looking at price, the M35 wins hands down, reserving the fact that I still have to drive the M35 and make sure I like it.
The numbers for the M35 are not for the all wheel drive model, sorry I did not get them yet but will perhaps have them later. Also these amounts are without any negotiations which I don't think will do much given the new introduction and being the first on the block with this car.
One last note to this long narrative. I also test drove the Acura RL around 6 weeks ago. Lot's of gadgets, not a bad ride. was actually impressed until I asked the price and was told CAD $ 71,000.00, laughed at the salesman and told him to call me when they drop the price by $10,000.00.
But even then my opinion is that it is a very large TL. P.S. , I also own a TSX.
Ok, promise really last thing. For those considering the M35/45 keep in mind that this is a 2006 model coming out in Feb of 2005. Infiniti has seen fit to put a very large residual on this car which they should and comparable lease prices in the USA should be very favourable for those that lease early.
My G35 is a 2003 being returned in 2005, They will re-market this car as a two year old car, god help the individual that does not ask the question "When was this car put on the road?"
Answer - 3 years ago!
Any questions about what I saw last night - ask away.
If thats not fast enough, the M45 will run in the mid 5s.
The M looks great, but I'll be keeping my G for a while longer.
M35:
http://www.nissannews.com/infiniti/2006vehicles/infiniti_m/specs.- shtml
I read as 3800 - 3900.
[M45 in R&T quoted as 4040, 4020 = C+D]
- Ray
Hoping to have seen the M45 below 4000, but . . . range . . .
Good review. The M35 is heavier than the 530i or the E320, but it is roomier and has a bigger engine.
I wouldn't worry about speed. It'll be about half a second slower than the G, but still best in class.
The carconnection just tested the M35 at 6.5s 0 to 60.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7958
According to Infiniti brochure that I picked up at auto show, we get M35,M35xAWD, M45,M45sport,
no M35 Sport for us. Also if I understood correctly, there will be no M45xAWD as Infiniti is doing a makeover of Q45 which will come in AWD and they do not want Q45 to compete with M45.
Will keep you posted once I get to test drive,thanks for your reply.
I have 78,000 KMS on my car, divide by 1.6 for miles. Have enjoyed each and every kilometer.
I am not yet counting myself out of a new G35, If the M35 does not work out, there is not much else out there that excites me. Next few weeks will tell the story, stay tuned......
Thanks for the carconnection article, it is the first such article that I have been able to read.
The comments about the 6 cyl are encouraging. I had one of the earlier Q45's back in the mid 90's, and loved the 8 Cyl. That was when you didn't need to mortgage your house to fill up.
Thanks again for posting the article.
Infiniti has a lot invested in the Q45 and I for one do not think that they will drop it. I think that they will take it to the next level. The M is a real nice fit for all those new buyers that will be coming out of their G35's and looking for something to upgrade to that is still within their budgets. Keep in mind that with all the new consumers that Infiniti now has, they have to seriously concentrate on Brand Loyalty and provide enough choices for those of us that wish to stay within the brand.
At the same time they have to keep pace with Lexus whom is their main rival.
What's going on with the Q is that Infiniti does plan to make a successor, but it just won't have the Q designation. More of a marketing thing I guess.
Although I hope they keep the Q moniker and make a good car. I think "Q45" sounds good. If they do go with another name, it'll probably come after the letter M. But nothing seems to sound right.
N? O? P? R? S? (Can't b/c of S55) T? W? X? Y? Z?
When you were talking to your Infiniti Manager, did he give you any indication of the MSLP of the M45? LIke you said about the Acura RL, I agree.I posted back when the RL first came out about the difference in pricing US versus Canada and that the RL was only worth about $60,000CDN.
Keep us informed. The Infiniti Manager here in Winnipeg said he would invite me down when they get their first one in. I too own one of the first G35s, took deleivery in May, 2002(April build date) and I only have 26,000KM on it as it is a second car to my Toyota.
Thanks for info;
Babs
Thx for the feedback. It appears that there is alot of subjectivity to a vehicles interior appearance. In the arena of actual leather, real wood, high-end hardware and adept finishing, different people like different things. With this said, I think very little of Audi's A6 spartan box cave of an interior. MB is a slight improvement on that.
Granted they use the higher materials but the layout and configurations are plain at best. The M45/35 on the other hand is extremely well appointed and attractive (IMO). R&T has their opinion and I'll leave it that. When did you get the Feb Automobile edition ? I'd be interested in grabbing a copy but I've just seen the Jan 05 at the news stand.
For me, assuming that the dynamics of ride, NVH, etc. live up to published reports I have read thus far (R&T, C+D) – The M45 appears to be better “bang for the buck” than an STS V8.
The 1SF STS V8 MSRP is currently approx. $59K.
The M45 Sport w/Rosewood MSRP is approx. $51K. (w/Sirius also)
To equip an STS V8 (a nice car, IMHO) as I would want to drive it, I’d need to order a 1SF. This has 2 rather pricey items that I’d prefer not to have / pay for: The NAV and the Xenons. Probably $2,500 to $3,000 at list.
Since Caddy has decided that one cannot “cherry pick” options / final drive ratios, I would need the 1SF – primarily to have the additional acceleration of the 3.23 final drive ratio. I have driven a 1SE (2.73 final drive) and a 1SF. I would not be satisfied with the acceleration of the 1SE. And one cannot substitute this final drive on any other version, nor can you add options like the performance package (RPO: QAF = 18” wheel / tires package with HiPo Michelins) – available only on the 1SG. Oh, well . . .
While this is heardly an exhaustive analysis, and I would not make a decision without driving an M45, it looks promising to me.
Since the M45 Sport offers all the performance I want or need (13.8 SS Quarter at over 100 mph, for instance) provides all the luxury I require, including cooled as well as heated front seats, etc. This price seems pretty fair – and again a better “bang” for MY bucks . . .
[ $8,000 is certainly a difference large enough to catch and hold MY attention. ]
- Ray
Ready to test drive . . .
Sorry, I did not get the MSLP, to many people around on second day of Auto Show. Don't want to call my dealer as I don't want him to think that I am hot for the car. Infinti did however release pricing to their dealers, so why not give yours a call and ask the question. If you get an answer, please let us know. Thanks
M35: $54,800
M35x: $58,300
M45: $64,400
M45 Sport: $71,800
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/050114-1.htm
In comparison, here are the Canadian base prices for the 2006 GS:
GS300: $64,300
GS300 AWD: $66,700
GS430: $74,700
I dunno why they'd change the Q's name. It's what an Infiniti dealer manager said. He's been pretty reliable in the past, but he could be wrong.
The Q has been equated with failure the past 10 years, and it could be that Infiniti doesn't want such an image for their flagship.
Thanks. And I would further expect that if I could find a 2005 on a dealer lot at this time in 2006 that met my preferences regarding color, etc. – I expect that it could be purchased for even somewhat less.
I have no idea what a TMV / actual out the door price on an M45 with a MSRP of approx. $51K will be. Yet.
- Ray
Please and grateful to be living in such interesting times . . .
I have driven one of these – recently – for approx. 36 hours and a couple of hundred miles.
This acceleration level is impressive – to me.
- Ray
Thinking at $50K (S-Type R lists for approx. $58K) this looks like it has potential to be a performance ‘bargain’ (if that word can be considered in the context of cars this expensive?) . . .
http://carreviewsonline.auto123.com/en/info/autonews/index,view.s- py?cmd=view&artid=34638&pg=1
I think the new M will be a hit. With lexus missing the boat by bringing an Underpowered GS and MB, Audi and BMW being at least 5k more and not having all the technology. The RL is really the Competition. Like my pilot the RL does not have a lot of torque and for the price you could get into a base 45 that would blow the doors off of it. Seems like infiniti has a sure fire hit.
Ummm . . .
First gear in the S-Type R is 4.17 * 2.87 final drive = 11.97 to 1
“ “ Audi RS6 is 3.57 * 3.20 = 11.42 to 1
“ “ BMW M5 (Manual Trans.) is 4.23 * 3.15 = 13.32 to 1
“ “ M-B E55 AMG is 3.59 * 2.65 = 9.51 to 1
- Source: R&T comparison test June 2003
I was more impressed with what is often referred to as “roll on” acceleration. And if the M45 ‘feels’ similar to the S-Type R in this respect, it will be ‘sufficient’ – for me.
- Ray
More concerned (typically) with 40 – 70 or 80 than 0-60 . . .
I had a similar decision as you did, unfortunately, the M35 didn't come out early enough. I have thus bought an A6. I am loving my car and have had no problems after 3 months. It is truly a quality ride and fun to drive.
That being said...I also have been admiring the M35 from afar. I personally have neither seen nor driven one. I suggest you wait for the test drive of each to make the decision. The quality of ride, solid feel, firmness on the road, acceleration, etc...will help you make the decision that can't be made merely by sitting inside them. I am curious to hear the final outcome of your search. I personally wouldn't worry too much about resale value as it is something one cannot even guestimate with these new models. They're both quality brands, and they both appear to be very stunning vehicles.
Best of luck!
As liferules said, the A6 is a fine car, like almost every other car in this segment. The build quality of the M seems right up there, and reliability of Infiniti is second only to Lexus.
As far as brand cachet goes, Audi is definitely ahead of Infiniti, but the way I see it, Infiniti's star is rising, and Audi is faltering a little bit (mainly b/c of reliability issues).
Price-wise they're similar, about $50k for well-equipped AWD V6 versions.
I'd advise waiting until February, then test drive the cars back to back. It's a big purchase. Sit in them for a LONG time. Then go with what you like.
In my opinion, Audi and Infiniti both have an image problem. Audi especially now since VAG has released the Phaeton. Infiniti at least with the G35 has the best residual/resale value in its class and they also had their best sales year ever, in contrast to Audi. Infiniti also has the lowest incentives in the industry for a luxury brand. Infiniti does not yet have the cachet of Lexus and Audi does not have the cachet of BMW and Mercedes-Benz, so IMO they are a toss up. I think that the new A6 will still be at the top of its class for interior material quality. Infiniti would probably be in-line with Mercedes-Benz on the interior quality front.
I really don't buy the "German build quality issue" anymore either. I think you could make a fair case for it in the past with cars like the W140, W126, and E125 Mercedes-Benz, but that was then, and this is now. Audi has just never been close to Infiniti in terms of reliability and customer service ratings. I think if you really value interior quality and German style, go with the Audi. But otherwise if you are open to new possibilities, the new Infiniti M makes a strong case for itself in every other aspect. Check out this PDF below on reliability consistency ratings on cars 1, 3, and 5 years old, done by Consumer Reports in 2004. Infiniti is on top, even better than Lexus after the first year of ownership.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/consumerreports.pdf
Infiniti, on the other hand, is pretty much a sure bet that you wont get to know your service technican more than you'd necessarily like to. I've had several friends who have owned Audis in the past, and every single one is driving a different brand now. Poor dealer experiences and poor reliability seem to make people thing twice about Audi once they've actually owned one.
I too am faced with the identical dilemma. Have to change my car in early March (currently driving a G35) and I was researching the Audi A6. I saw the M35 at the Auto show and even without a test drive am seriously leaning towards the Infiniti. Have only to wait a couple of weeks to test drive and then hope to be in the Infiniti in early March.
Like and dislikes of vehicles is a very subjective thing. What is amazing to one can be hated by another. With this said, the following are my reasons for leaning towards the M,
A) I have experience with Infiniti. Leased a Q45 back in early to mid 90's and have been driving a G35 for last 3 years. My only experience with German cars was a used 300 Diesel Benz that I had for a couple of years and a Jetta Carat that I also leased way back when. The Jetta was leased from a Volkswagon/Audi dealer. I disliked the attitude and service of this dealer so much that I got out of this car fast.
I currently have a rust issue which you can read about in problems and solutions -G35. Again with no questions asked I have an appointment on Monday for them to fix this issue at no charge.
80,000 kilometers (50,000 miles).
c) If you equip the A6 with all the options that the M has, the price of the Audi is way way more expensive than the M . (again here in Canada,_ and also the Audi does not have all of the options that the M has like the camera that gives you a picture when you are in reverse, MP3 player,Air conditioned seats etc...
D) The M is a 2006 model whereas the A6 is a 2005. So whether you lease or buy you will have the advantage both ways of getting into a 2006 model in March of 2005. If you lease the residuals will be very high, thus lower payments, if you buy, when it comes time to sell or trade you would have gained a model year and thus get more for your car.
E) Interior Finish - I am going back to the car show this morning to take a closer look at this issue. From what I recall from my visit last Saturday, The finish of the Audi is nice and in tune with a European car such as BMW, Saab etc..
however, I found the dash to be very plain and boring. My opinion is that it is much the same year after year. The M is new and I think you will agree - State Of The Art.
F) When I service the M I am guaranteed a loaner whereas this is not provided here by Audi.
G) G35- Aside from the issues raised above, I have had no other problems with my G35, for the last 3 years I have only put gas in it and changed the oil religiously every 3,000 miles.
I am the type of person that only goes back to the dealer when there is a problem. All I can say is that I am not a very regular visitor to their service department
That's my story, stay tuned for the driving experience which should happen within the next 3 weeks.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
I would not want to own an Audi after the warranty had expired.
Gabman
When it comes to bullet proof, prescision builds with hair thin panel gaps and no mis-aligned panels, Japan walks all over Europe. Japanese part defects are 1\10 of the rest of the world. I've also seen a 1990 LS400 with 560,000 miles and still going, and heard about a 300ZX with more than 750,000. I've also talked to some Toyota and Lexus techs over the years, and many have said that cars coming in with over 300K for service is a pretty normal thing.
Its a different way of thinking. The German idea of luxury seems to be to shove as many UNPROVEN techno gadgets in a car as humanly possible, and then just kind of see what happens, and make fixes as problems crop up. Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura dont do things that way, and thats why the three of them own the reliability indexes year after year.
To reveal my own bias and conflict of interest statement, you should know that I have pre-ordered the M35x.
I do have a question, though. While I know that the Audi is a mechanical AWD system and the Infiniti uses an electro-mechanical clutch, I have read others saying that the Infiniti AWD system is more advanced than what Lexus is planning for the GS. Can someone explain the difference?
As for other notes on the Auto Show, the Saturn Aura is going to be a huge winner. They said the production will be late 2006 (calendar), but it should not change much (ie 95% similar to the concept). The new Hummer H3 looks like a Grand Cherokee before the edges are sanded down. And although I am really looking forward to the loaded M35 next month, part of me says I could get the Hybrid Accord and a Pontiac Solstice for the same cost.
Nissan's system normally sends all the power to the rear, and power oversteer is as simple as a quick spin of the wheel and some throttle, just as in the RWD cars. Who says AWD cant be fun? For a fixed Audi style split, you just hit the "snow" button for bad conditions.
Not to much is really known about GS300 AWD, as Lexus hasnt said much about it. I assume its related to their standard electronic setup in the RX, except that system is heavily FWD biased, and hardly ideal for a performance sedan, so I'm sure they've made changes, I just dont know what they are.
Why will the Saturn Aura be a winner, exactly? Isnt it just another Malibu rebadge with some swoopier styling?
Getting back to the Audi/Infiniti thing. My dad owned a 4000 quattro years ago and said it was the best car that he would never buy again. He was on a first name basis with the service guy. Obviously, that doesn't mean a thing given the time interval, but he won't even look at them anymore. I had a G20 years ago and never had any problems, but I haven't owned an Infiniti for the eight years since then.
They had the bourbon/graphite interior trim at the show. I am hoping (since the M I ordered has it) that it was only the bright spotlights that made my wife think the "bourbon" was orange. I personally thought it was a rich color. However, if anyone is thinking about ordering it, I would strongly suggest they see it in person. My wife really liked it on the "build your M" site, but has serious doubts after seeing it. The transmission hump in the back seat is large--something to consider if you want three across. I am 5'10" and had no problem in the side seats in back. Although I couldn't get in the GS at the Lexus site, the back seat looked smaller. (Rear seat room is important to me with three kids). The trunk was larger than expected (with th small spare), but luggage for a week-long family trip could get tight (not impossible).
Remember that buying a car is not just about reliability. I'd be lying if I said it doesn't matter or that I don't appreciate quality craftsmanship; but if that were all that mattered, we'd all be driving an Accord or Camry. But we're not, because we like a FUN ride. Which car is most fun to us is subjective. I personally think the Lexus cars of late are very soft on the road and boring to the eye. IMO, the only thing going for them is their reliability.
Infinity, on the other hand, may just be the automaker to bridge the gap between fun ride and reliability. At least I hope the new M does that. Certainly the G's have been a good foreshadowing.
Someone suggested not keeping an Audi out of warranty, and I think anyone who buys any $50K car out of warranty is crazy. These quality of cars are just plain expensive to repair and going "commando" is stupid.
I agree that Lexus needs to work on their fun factor. Lexus does make a "drivers car", the IS300, but they went too far in the other direction from their typical cars, and traditional Lexus shoppers were turned off, and went to G35 instead. I'm hoping that the IS350 fixes those problems and they actually make a car adults would be willing to buy this time. The '06 GS may also be a lot more driver oriented. I am eagerly awaiting a first drive.