Visited the Indy Infiniti dealer with its 3 Factory cars. Dont know much about the controller but is this simply an "Idrive"?? How complicated? G35 seems to me to more comfortable without the annoyance of the "controller" Help?
I was wondering if the 2006 M35/45 have side mirrors with integrated turn signals? Not a big deal but I read on several websites that it was the case however the last time I saw a M45 at an Infiniti dealership I could not figure out where these integrated turn signals were (I did not get to play inside to illuminate the signals, that would have helped).
We looked at the M45 last night. It is a very nice car! Our only concern is about the power shade for the rear window which we like very much in our old car. Is this option only available as part of the premium package on the regular M45 and not even an option at all on the Sport M45?
thought i'd share my first impressions on this car.
my wife's saab is dying and this afternoon we went out to look at infinitis. they had an m45 sport in the showroom which we sat in for a while and then drove a base m35. i have to say they've done a fantastic job on the car. it's attractive and it might be the nicest car interior i've ever been in (well except maybe for my buddy's bentley conti gt). the sport interior is really nice with the metal trim and the level of amenities (if you like technology that is seemlessly implemented) is really good.
we couldn't drive the m45 as someone else was taking it out so we took out the m35. while no m5 (my car) i was pretty impressed with the handling and imagine it would be even better with the sport. my only complaint was that the steering was quite light and without the great feel of the m5 (or other bmw's). i think the steering of the sport is different but we didn't get the chance to drive it.
well my wife was impressed but isn't interested in the car as she feels it's 'too much car for me'. she's more low key on the car front. i am going to drive the m45 sport soon. it may be sacriledge but it's the first car i've seen that i would consider trading my m5 for, at least at any reasonable price point. i know it's not the same but it might be a lot of fun and i love some of the technology in there (some i wouldn't bother with)...
anyway, bmw has some real competition on their hands with these cars...more power, much nicer interior, better dealer experience, more reliable and cheaper. the driving dynamic is not quite there (although it's not fair to compare my m5 to the base m35) and the 'breeding' isn't the same but i'm happy to see more cars like this in the mix.
i'm going to drive the m45 sport at some point to get a better comparion. hope the steering is heavier with more feel...
The Acura RL, Infiniti M, and Audis all use controllers now in addition to BMW. All however, have been careful to avoid the pitfall that BMW jumped into. No review that Ive seen of any of the above mentioned brands has complained that their controller was too difficult to operate. Usually its just mentioned that its wonderful that it ISNT iDrive.
cohenfive, perhaps your wife would be more interested in a G35x?
we may well look at the g35...not sure we need awd though (sf bay area). i like the infiniti lineup except for the q-ship...
as for the controller, we didn't spend much time with it but it did look pretty easy to use. one thing i liked was that there were multiple controller choices (arrows as well as a turnable dial).
one last comment on the m's....the only issue i can see is that, although cheaper than the germans, they are still pretty pricey. an m45 sport equipped the way i would like it stickers at $56k plus. not exactly a great value when the new rl is selling for about $10k less...and within $5k of a 545 sport. my guess is that, regardless of how good they are, they will likely trade decently under sticker as there is just a really crowded field of really good cars in this class..the dealer where we drove it said he had 18 coming in with the first shipment and spots for another 40. i don't think that second wave was spoken for yet.
The RL really competes with the M35 and not the M45; A loaded M35 and an RL are about the same price.
Also, a 545i with Cold Weather Package, Premium Sound, Sport Package, Active Cruise, Navi, and Satellite radio is $67,000, about $10,000 more than a similarly loaded M45 Sport (Journey and Tech).
I see. If she really wants some performance, perhaps the 6MT with sport package? $56K for a V8 in this class is an absolute bargain. ALL the rest of the competition cost more to a lot more. As jrock said, the RL competes in the V6 class. It might have 300hp, but its slower than the M35.
well i'm actually thinking of a replacement for my m5 at some point...if i want a slower car....
i understand the relative value but still think they'll be discounted....all of it's competitors are. maybe using the term 'expensive' was inaccurate, it's more that there are tons of good cars in this class and competition won't allow pricing to stay this high imo...
There's a boy racer quality to a lot of Nissan products lately, as if they want to become the Japanese Pontiac. Infiniti logo on the front seats. Who needs their advertising?
In the recent MT comparison of sport sedans, the M35 was geared way up, 2,500rpm at 60mph, compared with about 2,000 for the others, meaning greater engine wear, more noise, reduced gas mileage (18-24 vs. 22-30 for the new GS300).
Also, 18" tires, implications for rapid wear, and with what effect on ride? Why the recent move to these larger tires across the board anyway? A costly, meaningless fad or does it have some rational purpose?
The people want bigger. flashier wheels, so thats what the manufacturers are handing out. Blame MTV. Provided the car is designed for a large wheel, there are definitely benefits to using a 17 or 18 vs. a 16. Past 18" though it starts to get stupid and you get drawbacks. Huge wheels actually hinder acceleration, just ask the Chevy SSR.
Apparenly big tires wear faster than smaller ones. In a footnote in the recent GS brochure, they cover themselves by saying that 17-18" tires may need replacement in less than 20,000 miles. Oh, great. Let's see, a set of 4 big tires every 15,000 miles. Hmm. Toyota Corolla is lookin' good.
There may be other technical reasons but the only practical reason (i.e. not fashion) that I am aware of for having larger tires is that the larger the wheel the smoother they ride over potholes, speed bumps, and other road irregularities. Think about it. For example, you even see push mowers with larger wheels now for the same reasons. I think that having the larger wheels allows them to tune the suspension to ride harder so the car handles better and the larger wheels help smooth out some of the unpleasant side effects of road feel from the harder ride.
However, I don't think the size of the wheel has anything to do with how fast the tire wears out. For tire wear the tread depth and the softness of the rubber are the prime issues. I think I noted that the tread wear rating of the M tires is 270. My Michelin MXV4's have a tread wear rating of 420. I can get about 45,000 to 50,000 miles out of a set of MXV4s. Probably means one could get about 25-30,000 miles out of the M tires. Of course you could replace the tire with a very good but harder rubber tire that would probably last much longer. The tire wear issue probably has a lot to do with the brutal competition and the fact the manufacturer's don't want to lose in any test like the skid pad. Unfortunately, the car mags (as opposed to Consumer Reports) never bother to balance the impractical nature of the tires used to achieve these road grip ratings (of course, if money is no object then the tires are not an issue). I would assume the other competition- GS, A6, etc. has similarly soft tires. As I said, when the OEM tires wear out you could get harder and longer wearing tires but you might go from say .88 on the skid pad to .84- big issue for some and not for others.
As to the M running at 2500 rpm at 60 miles an our, this is high. However, most 4 cylinders would run at about the same number and as a general rule no one questions the longevity of these engines. The quality of the metals used in engines has progressed to the point that I don't think the relative wear on the engine is much of an issue at 2500 RPM. It is not unheard of by any stretch for a 4 cylinder to go 200,000 miles at similar RPMs. The effect on gas mileage may be bad and the engine noise may be an issue.
I think the geneses of why the M runs at a higher RPM than the competition may go back about 3 years to when the current Q45 was introduced. The Q came out with a V8 with over 300 hp which was a real strong engine particularly at introduction in 2002. The car mags however were disappointed with the Q45 acceleration given the HP and torque and blamed it on the gearing being too tall (I think the Q also lost some relative acceleration comparisons with weaker rivals). Subsequently, I think Infiniti in later year models revised the Q45 gearing such that it runs at a higher RPM but also faster acceleration. I am guessing here, but given the competitive pressures of wanting to win the acceleration tests and what happened with the Q, Infiniti may have over compensated for the gearing of the M. Of course it is a balancing act- if you want a 6.6 second 0-60 vs. say 7.0 second 0-60 the lower gearing may be well worth it regardless of the effect on gas mileage.
That is true, however, an appreciating car is the exception, not the rule. Especially for an everyday driver. If, instead of buying your '58 Chevy, you had invested a like amount in say GE or IBM stock, I'm guessing your returns would have been significantly greater! Not to mention the cost to insure and maintain an antique. Having said that, boy would I like a Mercedes 300 Gullwing...!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The 300SL was quite a car, but to me nothing quite measures up to the legendary Ferrari 250GTO. I also wouldnt mind a perfect condition Jag XK-120 or 150. I still think that the 120 and 150 are some of the most beautiful cars ever made.
Well, here's the thing regarding wheel size -- it's independent of tire size, as in outside diameter, or rolling radius.
Your discussion has to do with the outside diameter of the tire. It's possible to have 16, 17, or 18 inch wheels that use rubber that yields up the same tire OD. It has to do with aspect ratio of the tire. Those 18 or 19 inch wheels will use 35 or 40 tires. Reducing the amount of rubber in the equation usually yields better turn-in response & a rougher ride, plus less protection for the wheels on rough (potholes) streets & highways.
If none of this makes sense to you, you're the target audience for those huge wheels & rubber-band tires.
An unabashed European car lover, my wife -- half Italian, half Polish -- always has had German cars, VW, BMW and over a dozen Audis. Her assumption is, if the Europeans have embraced something, it may have merit (speaking of cars).
So, to have fully vetted the Infiniti brand, she wonders out loud, "how is or has been the Nissan/Infiniti brand/family been received in Italy?"
I have been quite curious about the M35/M45 and have seen both and sat in the front and back seat. Very nice interior and I like the overall styling. I also like the way the cars can be equipped with the various option packages (both sport and basic packages show well althougth the basic package wheels are a disappointment).
I have not driven but that will come soon (and most comments are quite positive).
As to negatives, I am concerned that the car's gearing is a bit low (and no overdrive/6 speed) which seems to contribute to very average mileage and more noise.
I also concur that the tire size issue could make replacement tires very expensive over time. I checked several on-line tire sellers and 18 and 19 inch tires in the size required (245/45/18 or 19) generally run over $250 per tire even in the 18 inch. Also, there are not many alternatives with better tire wear indices even if you did choose to run less high performance rubber on the replacement sets. This may seem like a minor issue but it looks to me like with road hazard/tax, etc it will be easy to spend $1200+ (maybe closer to $1500) every 15,000 miles to keep the M in tires.
I have never gotten close to spec wear even with all season tires and have had plenty of V and Z rated tires gone after 15,000 miles (don't let anyone tell you different). Tire wear not coming close to spec is legendary. I drive fairly hard but not ridiculously. I only put about 10,000 miles a year on my car but for those that drive 15,000-20,000 miles per year, the tire cost for the M is a drawback.
Test drove the M35 AWD a few days ago. Overall impression - very nice car! I drive an 01 TL which is no hot rod. The M felt marginally faster, but not dramatically quicker. Hanlding was outstanding. Took off hard on a turn out of a parking lot onto the highway and it just hugged the road in complete control. Very solid. Nice steering feel and road feedback, yet smooth ride, not harsh. Braking is very good.
The car is clearly bigger than the GS inside. More front/rear head room. I'm 6'0 and had four fingers of room over my head vs. 1 finger sitting in the GS with seat all the way down. Surround sound system in the M is fantastic. Back seat room very good - leg and head. Back up camera is cool and very practical - not just a gadget.
Some concerns: - I drove the car in Chicago area and temp was about 23 degrees. I rode as a passenger and noticed cold air draft on the door near my calf and feet. Didnt notice it on my old TL. - Also heard wind noise near my left ear at about 50-55 mph for about 10 secs. Didnt get the car on the highway to drive at higher speed for sustained time so not sure if this would be a constant bother or not, but something I suggest you check out. Earlier post here about the multiple interior colors ruins the look IMO. Greyish headliner different than the beige upholstery/dash area and darker wood on the dash. The headliner color clashes with the seats and dash. Looks OK if you go with the dark grey or charcoal seats/dash though. - Also, on the M45 I noticed rust colored stiching on the black steering wheel with charcoal interior. Stands out and adds nothing in terms of looks, simply screams "look at my seams - I dont match". Nissan needs more work on making interiors that are consistent and elegant. Overall, interior looks pretty good though.
I cant quote you exact sales stats, but based on my impressions in Rome, Florence, etc. I would say not good. Infiniti doesnt exist in Europe, and Im not sure if the Nissan Fuga (Infiniti M) is on sale there yet. Cousin Renault is all over, but Nissan, not so much. Europeans drive European cars, its kind of an always has been, always will be kind of thing. Even in Great Britian, which seems to be more responsive to Japanese cars than France, Germany or Italy, you'll see maybe one Honda or Mazda for every 100 German or French cars. I was recently in London for about a week, and I saw one GS and one LS while I was there. No expensive Honda or Nissan product. I dont remember ever seeing even Lexus in the rest of Europe.
Its not really a fair comparison. The European market has been relatively closed to Japanese imports for a variety of reasons -- not the least of which are import quotas and import duties. There are other issues of course: prohibitive taxes on larger cars (like the Fuga/M) and the popularity of diesel engines (unavailable on the Fuga/M and others), lack of dealer networks, etc.
The most open and competitive market in the world (thought not perfect of course) is the North American one. So if Japanese cars do well here, they should do well elsewhere, all other factors being equal.
I would also take issue with the assumption that European car buyers are "smarter" than North American ones!
" would also take issue with the assumption that European car buyers are "smarter" than North American ones!"
I wouldnt. Not when cars like the Chevy Impala and Ford Taurus can still make it on to the top ten sales charts. Its not that Ford or Chevy cant make a decent sedan. Ford has the Mondeo and hot rod Falcon, and GM has several Opel sedans that are much better than the Impala ever was. What did we get? The contour, and the Cadillac Catera.
Just because difference markets make different choices does not mean that one is "smarter" than the other -- it merely means that they value different things.
Many North Americans prefer larger cars and also lower-priced larger cars. The Impala is a prime example of such a car. None of the other Opel or Ford cars are in the same size category.
Europeans often prefer smaller cars for a variety of reasons: fuel efficiency, crowded roads, narrower lanes, high taxes on larger cars, etc.
I quickly re-read my post, I did not attribute or equate anything my wife said to mean she thought European car buyers are "smarter."
I wrote: "Her assumption is, if the Europeans have embraced something, it may have merit (speaking of cars)."
I cannot support the notion that my American born, 1/2 Italian 1/2 Polish wife thinks Europeans are smarter (or dumber) than North Americans (car buyers that is).
I, too, agree that "if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere" -- hence the car makers of the world do seem to court North American buyers with foundation. For indeed it has been true (but the future is yet to be seen -- thinking of China, he thought) that if you could bring a car to the North American consumer and be successful, you have truly produced a world class car.
Today, this part of the world is still the sanity check or litmus test for Car Companies the world over.
Well I just found some figures. It seems that GM sales are up in Europe, Ford is down, and Toyota is down as well. Toyota has 5.9% of the western Europe market. GM and Ford have a little over 11 or 12% each. That would mean the Americans and Japanese have 30% or less of the market, so basically as I said before, Europeans drive European cars.
"if you could bring a car to the North American consumer and be successful, you have truly produced a world class car."
Thats not true at all. There are plenty of world market designed cars that work here (the European cars, and Mazda) but most of the cars designed for the American market would definitely NOT work elsewhere, except maybe Canada. How many Ford F-150s do you think Ford sells in Europe? Or China, Japan, or Australia? How about Chevy Suburbans? Id say most of the entire line up of the domestic 3 would definitely NOT work anywhere but here.
M35/M45 - we're not talking about world marketing.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
You always have the option of replacing the 18" rims with 17" rims and higher profile tires. The Tire Rack can tell you exactly what size tires you need to use on 17" rims to keep the same rolling radius. This would eliminate all the problems being discussed here with the 18" stock wheels, plus provide an attractive option for those people who don't like the appearance of the stock wheels to begin with. Keeping the car for 8 years or so would more than cover the cost of the 17" rims in savings from not having to buy more expensive tires more often.
Any comments on Infiniti dealer experiences? I am interested in flipping my G35 for an M35 and have been getting the runaround from my local dealer through which I leased my G35. For example, I got a call saying they would be happy to trade me into an M35 at no added cost (for flipping the lease), but when I got to the dealer the new cost suddenly became $1800!
Suffice it to say I was not pleased and walked out.
I was not aware that Suburans are imported here, sorry. I meant to exclude cars that are built here and include cars that are brought here, such as the new Infiniti M's (which I assume ARE built somewhere other than North America).
I said if you could bring a car here, then you suggest that European cars work here (and include Mazda) -- that was exactly my point.
I'm so confused, I thought the F-150 was MADE in America, not brought here from elsewhere. Wait a minute, the "domestic 3" are not made in North America. Now when did this happen.
Like the M's from Infiniti, my contention was that if you make a car and your car is exported to the US and you are successful, you stand a better than even chance of being sucessful. As small a market as the US is for many companies (from European countries especially, for example), they currently "need" to succeed in the US.
And, in point of reference, I assumed that Ford F-150s and Suburans were NOT imported into North America, if they are, as your post suggests, I stand corrected.
When I talked with the Infiniti salesrep he told me I could order a car, it would be built in Japan and brought here on a ship and the whole process would take 12+ weeks.
Makes no sense to me to build F-150s in Europe and ship them here.
Ah ok, that makes more sense. I agree that if your world market design car can work in the NA market, you've got something good going. There are still plenty of models imported here that are designed largely just for here though, for example many Toyota, Honda, and Nissan products, as well as even some European models like the X5 and ML. I dont think Audi is making the Q7 because it needs it in Europe.
Yeah, that's been discussed in our Inside Line questions discussion. boo, hiss.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Has anyone road tested both M45 and the M45 Sport ? Curious as to the ride comfort and handling differences.
Test drove the M45 Sport recently here in New England. Quite the ride and the power is phenominal. Also, the dealer hung with the MSRP only position. It should be interesting to see when this position will relax .................
These M cars are "widely available" at invoice + $2,500. But, you have to buy them via the Internet. And, depending on where you live, you may have to go somewhere to pick it up and drive it to your local area.
For some folks, dealer relationships are of great importance (I am one of those who feels that way). The justification for buying from an authorized Internet dealer is up to you. It is certainly not "illegal" as far as I can tell.
If you have a long term established relationship with a dealer, I would hope you would consider the "value" of perpetuating that relationship.
If you have zero value in the relationship with the XYZ dealership -- then buy it from the cheapest source and have it maintained by the closest or best Infiniti dealer you can find.
As one who has dealt with a very small boutique home theater company as a customer, I have seen customers demo speakers, A/V Pre's and Amps and big screen TV's for hours -- and then walk out the door and order the product off the Internet totally "stealing" from the Home Theater retailer who, after all, spent time with you for free in exchange for the possibility you would buy from him/her. That just seems slimy.
If I actually build a relationship with an Infiniti dealer, I will buy from that dealer. I have a relationship with an Audi dealer and, while I do want a good price, I do believe there is an inherent value in the relationship. It may manifest itself immediately or later -- but I do believe it will manifest itself over time.
This two-way loyalty is but one reason I am finding it so difficult to leave Audi for Infiniti -- the benefits of the relationship with the Audi dealer over what is now almost 30 years (with the same dealer) keep showing up time and time again.
And, it is MORE than free soda, pastry and other libations -- it is "breaks" cut for us with service and loaner cars and "extras" all the time. It is as if this dealer wants to keep us as customers. I would almost find it unethical to buy somewhere else -- at least if I buy another Audi.
So, if you have a relationship with a dealer, build upon it -- you will probably get a discount off the car. If you don't have a relationship -- buy your Infiniti from one of the several Internet dealers who will sell at cost plus.
Just laid a down payment on an M35 Sport, taking delivery in a few weeks. If you want lower price, try leasing. The residual after 36 months is a solid 57% making this deal one of the best out there. I've been shopping A6, RL, TL, 530, SAAB 9-5 Aero. None lease out as well as the new M. Test drove the M35 and M45 too, v-8 is just stupid fast - would be outright squirrelly w/o traction control. M35 Sport will be all I need. Want to mention the awesome leg room offered in the back seat too. I'm 6'2". Adjusted the driver's seat to fit me then sat in the back - plenty of knee room. Seats take all the road shock out of the stiff suspension. Having owned a '94 740iL I can say this new M deserves accolades. Driving it is a real treat.
Sounds great, but I heard from a very reliable source(An actual Sales Manager from Infiniti from a big dealership in Texas) that for 36mo residual from IFS is 60% for 15k/yr miles...61% for 36mo/12k miles and 62%for 36mo/10k miles. This is for all 5 models of M35/M45.
If you leased through IFS, you should be able to call them directly and get a free early termination quote. IIRC, the obtained quote should then be valid at any Infiniti dealer.
Drove the M35 tonight. Great car. Fell in love with the car. $40,000 car and heated seats are optional. Why is that most cars that I've test driven in the mid $30,000 range that have leather interior, heated seats are optional. Can't even buy it as a seperate item , only as a package deal.
"As one who has dealt with a very small boutique home theater company as a customer, I have seen customers demo speakers, A/V Pre's and Amps and big screen TV's for hours -- and then walk out the door and order the product off the Internet totally "stealing" from the Home Theater retailer who, after all, spent time with you for free in exchange for the possibility you would buy from him/her. That just seems slimy."
As one who has done exactly that, I gotta say I dont agree. You buy the demo equipment..once. It costs nothing but electricity to show something to a potential customer. If they wanted my business, they shouldnt charge such outrageous mark-ups. Its just business. For example, I auditioned some speaker cables, decided on Audioquest Bedrock. Dealer wanted around $65\foot. I got it online for less than $25\foot. That was years ago though, and now most online places let you "rent" cables in your own home, with your own equipment, for anywhere from 15 to 45 days or so. Most dealers wont do that. Their loss.
To try and get something on topic, I dont feel I owe my business to anyone. I've bought 3 Lexus vehicles from Rahal because Rahal is the only dealer in the area. If there was somebody else who could beat them, then good bye, Bobby.
I've been reading this board as well as the Lexus GS and Acura RL for months now trying to decide between these 3 very worthy autos -- as nice as the German sedans are, I'm a stickler for reliability which contributed to moving the above cars to the fore. Drove the RL a couple of months ago and was moderately impressed but felt that they cut corners in too many places to justify a 50K price tag. Waited for the M and drove one this past weekend (35x as I prefer AWD for driving in my neck of the woods). Was extremely impressed with the interior and the way it seemed, at least in comparison to the RL, they went just a bit further luxury-wise and functionality-wise. Took several tight turns at speeds I was sure would force this baby to admit its shortcomings but it was not to be -- rock solid and with great feel for the road. Moreover, given the power this V6 put out, that V8 must feel like a rocketship.... While I am certain that the GS will also be an extremely fine car, the M sold me in every way a felt a car could so add me to the list of new M purchasers anxious to drive his/her new car. Mine will be in on 3/18 and I will be happy to report specifics when it arrives. Thanks to all here and on those boards as well for helping me make a more informed decision...
"As one who has done exactly that, I gotta say I dont agree. You buy the demo equipment..once. It costs nothing but electricity to show something to a potential customer."
Wow, I am surprised to hear that kind of analysis from someone who apparently is interested in expensive cars. Do you really believe that there is no cost in providing a bricks-and-mortar retail establishment other than a one-time cost of demo equipment? Does anyone really believe that an internet retailer works off of the same margin as a store-front?
Even as someone who shops carefully and hates to overpay, I don't necessarily expect a local retailer to meet the lowest possible price from the cheapest fly-by-night internet-only seller-- but I certainly wouldn't be willing to pay over twice as much, either (as in your speaker cable example). But even taking that example, in my experience if you went back to your local store owner, showed him/her your internet quote, and asked him/her to give you a reasonable proposal, more often than not you will get a deal that's competitive.
If price is truly one's only concern, then they should shop on the internet and use the info available there for their decision-making. Of course, all of this is IMHO.
The opportunity cost for dealers is huge -- and although I do understand the power of price, my dealer has walls, a service bay or bays, admin staff and all the rest.
According to a great book, called Blown to Bits, "car dealers are sitting ducks." I believe that there would be an equalization if there would be a small charge for the "consultation" involved in selling some products, then a larger discount would be possible.
Of course, if you believe Blown to Bits, the consumer will dictate what may be the ultimate demise of some retail sectors. Sure I can buy a home theater from Costco, but it seems on the verge of unethical to make the full service retailer incur the expense of marketing to you (or me) and then after the free education buying the product elsewhere.
The reason for the markups, in part, is to COVER the cost of sales which includes education for the sales rep and, more importantly for you and me as customers.
I don't want to overpay -- but my sense of fair play says it is not a good practice to shop with no intention of buying at bricks and then buy at clicks after bricks spent the time, money and in the example, the cost of opening the doors (which does include electricity) just to educate the customer.
I THOUGHT, at the time that a retailer named the Great Indoors had a good thing going for them and for the customer, when they required a $500 fully refundable deposit to meet with a consultant when you were about to undergo a bathroom or kitchen remodel.
Of course in their case, they went too far, demanding 100% full prepayment for any remodeling job no matter how small or large. Ultimately, Sears, their parent, pulled the plug.
The one concept I appreciated, however, was the consultative approach and their charging for the service (fully refundable) as it did keep the customers "serious."
To each his own -- but please don't suggest that it is appropriate to virtually scam a retailer when you have no intention of buying from "bricks."
Car dealers may be their own worst enemy, but I just think it is inappropriate to use the dealer for product education and then buy from the Internet dealer who has provided you with nothing.
Car dealers are different than botique home theater stores. They have no lobby arm that protects them from things like being crushed by internet sales. As for marketing and "education", no thanks. At least with the major retailers like Circuit City, Sears, Best Buy, etc. their electronics guys seem to be fresh out of a 30 minute course, and I've seen several examples where they will just push the most expensive product, regardless of wether its actually the best performer or not.
Most botique places that I've experienced are much the same way. The equipment just gets more expensive. For example, one place I went to was a huge McIntosh retailer. Guess what speakers and amps were pushed the hardest? If I go someplace to buy this type of equipment, I dont want to be marketed to, and I dont want to be educated either. I've already read all the info about it, both from the company itself and reviewers, and I just want to listen for myself.
Cars are the same way. I'm not a person that goes to a dealership and goes "gee, I just dont know what I want, what can you show me?". If I'm there, I'm there to drive a specific car that I already know all about. Just give me the keys and get out of my way.
I've maintained for years that a far more efficient & enjoyable (at least to me) car buying model would involve direct negotiation between the purchaser and the manufacturer, much like Dell does with computers. Dealers (facilitators) would exist only to demonstrate, deliver and service the vehicle. Every buyer would get exactly the vehicle they wanted (color, options (down to wheels & tires), you-name-it).
Back before the couple of Edmunds boards that catered mostly to car sales "professionals" were rendered read-only, I put this forward. It was explained to me that the great unwashed, who routinely do upside-down deals &/or can't get financing from a real bank, to say nothing of the people who "need to be sold" a car (rather than just purchasing one), couldn't function in such an environment.
Besides which, the dealer cabal, most of which are very well represented by state lobbyists, would never, never (ever) allow such a thing to happen. Cutting out the middleman makes lots of sense to everyone but the middleman.
But I think it will happen, eventually. Can't be soon enough for me.
Interesting, but not really on-topic in this discussion. There's a lot of that type of conversation on the Smart Shopper board, which could use some new debate!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I attended the official M launch last nite in Houston. This is the size car I really wanted when I bought a '05 G sedan last month. Although I really like my G for me it is just a tad small. I would really like to trade for the M35 right now provided I wouldn't take a beating. But, I'm sure the dealers will hold the MRSP for a while. Would be appreciated if Edmunds or someone could provide invoice pricing.
My face is red as I post this one. In my previous post I was asking Edmunds or someone for M35 invoice pricing. The last time I checked Edmunds there was no invoice price, but NOW THERE IS! Thanks, again, Edmunds.
Comments
I was wondering if the 2006 M35/45 have side mirrors with integrated turn signals? Not a big deal but I read on several websites that it was the case however the last time I saw a M45 at an Infiniti dealership I could not figure out where these integrated turn signals were (I did not get to play inside to illuminate the signals, that would have helped).
Thanks,
N.
does anyone is inform about the existing turning lights signals on side mirrors for 2006 M35/45?
thanks.
zamuda
my wife's saab is dying and this afternoon we went out to look at infinitis. they had an m45 sport in the showroom which we sat in for a while and then drove a base m35. i have to say they've done a fantastic job on the car. it's attractive and it might be the nicest car interior i've ever been in (well except maybe for my buddy's bentley conti gt). the sport interior is really nice with the metal trim and the level of amenities (if you like technology that is seemlessly implemented) is really good.
we couldn't drive the m45 as someone else was taking it out so we took out the m35. while no m5 (my car) i was pretty impressed with the handling and imagine it would be even better with the sport. my only complaint was that the steering was quite light and without the great feel of the m5 (or other bmw's). i think the steering of the sport is different but we didn't get the chance to drive it.
well my wife was impressed but isn't interested in the car as she feels it's 'too much car for me'. she's more low key on the car front. i am going to drive the m45 sport soon. it may be sacriledge but it's the first car i've seen that i would consider trading my m5 for, at least at any reasonable price point. i know it's not the same but it might be a lot of fun and i love some of the technology in there (some i wouldn't bother with)...
anyway, bmw has some real competition on their hands with these cars...more power, much nicer interior, better dealer experience, more reliable and cheaper. the driving dynamic is not quite there (although it's not fair to compare my m5 to the base m35) and the 'breeding' isn't the same but i'm happy to see more cars like this in the mix.
i'm going to drive the m45 sport at some point to get a better comparion. hope the steering is heavier with more feel...
cohenfive, perhaps your wife would be more interested in a G35x?
as for the controller, we didn't spend much time with it but it did look pretty easy to use. one thing i liked was that there were multiple controller choices (arrows as well as a turnable dial).
one last comment on the m's....the only issue i can see is that, although cheaper than the germans, they are still pretty pricey. an m45 sport equipped the way i would like it stickers at $56k plus. not exactly a great value when the new rl is selling for about $10k less...and within $5k of a 545 sport. my guess is that, regardless of how good they are, they will likely trade decently under sticker as there is just a really crowded field of really good cars in this class..the dealer where we drove it said he had 18 coming in with the first shipment and spots for another 40. i don't think that second wave was spoken for yet.
Also, a 545i with Cold Weather Package, Premium Sound, Sport Package, Active Cruise, Navi, and Satellite radio is $67,000, about $10,000 more than a similarly loaded M45 Sport (Journey and Tech).
The Acura RL has this feature and it really makes a difference in visibility.
i understand the relative value but still think they'll be discounted....all of it's competitors are. maybe using the term 'expensive' was inaccurate, it's more that there are tons of good cars in this class and competition won't allow pricing to stay this high imo...
There's a boy racer quality to a lot of Nissan products lately, as if they want to become the Japanese Pontiac. Infiniti logo on the front seats. Who needs their advertising?
In the recent MT comparison of sport sedans, the M35 was geared way up, 2,500rpm at 60mph, compared with about 2,000 for the others, meaning greater engine wear, more noise, reduced gas mileage (18-24 vs. 22-30 for the new GS300).
Also, 18" tires, implications for rapid wear, and with what effect on ride? Why the recent move to these larger tires across the board anyway? A costly, meaningless fad or does it have some rational purpose?
There may be other technical reasons but the only practical reason (i.e. not fashion) that I am aware of for having larger tires is that the larger the wheel the smoother they ride over potholes, speed bumps, and other road irregularities. Think about it. For example, you even see push mowers with larger wheels now for the same reasons. I think that having the larger wheels allows them to tune the suspension to ride harder so the car handles better and the larger wheels help smooth out some of the unpleasant side effects of road feel from the harder ride.
However, I don't think the size of the wheel has anything to do with how fast the tire wears out. For tire wear the tread depth and the softness of the rubber are the prime issues. I think I noted that the tread wear rating of the M tires is 270. My Michelin MXV4's have a tread wear rating of 420. I can get about 45,000 to 50,000 miles out of a set of MXV4s. Probably means one could get about 25-30,000 miles out of the M tires. Of course you could replace the tire with a very good but harder rubber tire that would probably last much longer. The tire wear issue probably has a lot to do with the brutal competition and the fact the manufacturer's don't want to lose in any test like the skid pad. Unfortunately, the car mags (as opposed to Consumer Reports) never bother to balance the impractical nature of the tires used to achieve these road grip ratings (of course, if money is no object then the tires are not an issue). I would assume the other competition- GS, A6, etc. has similarly soft tires. As I said, when the OEM tires wear out you could get harder and longer wearing tires but you might go from say .88 on the skid pad to .84- big issue for some and not for others.
As to the M running at 2500 rpm at 60 miles an our, this is high. However, most 4 cylinders would run at about the same number and as a general rule no one questions the longevity of these engines. The quality of the metals used in engines has progressed to the point that I don't think the relative wear on the engine is much of an issue at 2500 RPM. It is not unheard of by any stretch for a 4 cylinder to go 200,000 miles at similar RPMs. The effect on gas mileage may be bad and the engine noise may be an issue.
I think the geneses of why the M runs at a higher RPM than the competition may go back about 3 years to when the current Q45 was introduced. The Q came out with a V8 with over 300 hp which was a real strong engine particularly at introduction in 2002. The car mags however were disappointed with the Q45 acceleration given the HP and torque and blamed it on the gearing being too tall (I think the Q also lost some relative acceleration comparisons with weaker rivals). Subsequently, I think Infiniti in later year models revised the Q45 gearing such that it runs at a higher RPM but also faster acceleration. I am guessing here, but given the competitive pressures of wanting to win the acceleration tests and what happened with the Q, Infiniti may have over compensated for the gearing of the M. Of course it is a balancing act- if you want a 6.6 second 0-60 vs. say 7.0 second 0-60 the lower gearing may be well worth it regardless of the effect on gas mileage.
BTW, I assume the car is in 5th gear at 60 mph?
Not always true...
That is true, however, an appreciating car is the exception, not the rule. Especially for an everyday driver. If, instead of buying your '58 Chevy, you had invested a like amount in say GE or IBM stock, I'm guessing your returns would have been significantly greater! Not to mention the cost to insure and maintain an antique. Having said that, boy would I like a Mercedes 300 Gullwing...!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Your discussion has to do with the outside diameter of the tire. It's possible to have 16, 17, or 18 inch wheels that use rubber that yields up the same tire OD. It has to do with aspect ratio of the tire. Those 18 or 19 inch wheels will use 35 or 40 tires. Reducing the amount of rubber in the equation usually yields better turn-in response & a rougher ride, plus less protection for the wheels on rough (potholes) streets & highways.
If none of this makes sense to you, you're the target audience for those huge wheels & rubber-band tires.
Enjoy.
So, to have fully vetted the Infiniti brand, she wonders out loud, "how is or has been the Nissan/Infiniti brand/family been received in Italy?"
Anyone have a clue?
Thanks.
I have been quite curious about the M35/M45 and have seen both and sat in the front and back seat. Very nice interior and I like the overall styling. I also like the way the cars can be equipped with the various option packages (both sport and basic packages show well althougth the basic package wheels are a disappointment).
I have not driven but that will come soon (and most comments are quite positive).
As to negatives, I am concerned that the car's gearing is a bit low (and no overdrive/6 speed) which seems to contribute to very average mileage and more noise.
I also concur that the tire size issue could make replacement tires very expensive over time. I checked several on-line tire sellers and 18 and 19 inch tires in the size required (245/45/18 or 19) generally run over $250 per tire even in the 18 inch. Also, there are not many alternatives with better tire wear indices even if you did choose to run less high performance rubber on the replacement sets. This may seem like a minor issue but it looks to me like with road hazard/tax, etc it will be easy to spend $1200+ (maybe closer to $1500) every 15,000 miles to keep the M in tires.
I have never gotten close to spec wear even with all season tires and have had plenty of V and Z rated tires gone after 15,000 miles (don't let anyone tell you different). Tire wear not coming close to spec is legendary. I drive fairly hard but not ridiculously. I only put about 10,000 miles a year on my car but for those that drive 15,000-20,000 miles per year, the tire cost for the M is a drawback.
The car is clearly bigger than the GS inside. More front/rear head room. I'm 6'0 and had four fingers of room over my head vs. 1 finger sitting in the GS with seat all the way down.
Surround sound system in the M is fantastic. Back seat room very good - leg and head. Back up camera is cool and very practical - not just a gadget.
Some concerns:
- I drove the car in Chicago area and temp was about 23 degrees. I rode as a passenger and noticed cold air draft on the door near my calf and feet. Didnt notice it on my old TL.
- Also heard wind noise near my left ear at about 50-55 mph for about 10 secs. Didnt get the car on the highway to drive at higher speed for sustained time so not sure if this would be a constant bother or not, but something I suggest you check out. Earlier post here about the multiple interior colors ruins the look IMO. Greyish headliner different than the beige upholstery/dash area and darker wood on the dash. The headliner color clashes with the seats and dash. Looks OK if you go with the dark grey or charcoal seats/dash though.
- Also, on the M45 I noticed rust colored stiching on the black steering wheel with charcoal interior. Stands out and adds nothing in terms of looks, simply screams "look at my seams - I dont match". Nissan needs more work on making interiors that are consistent and elegant. Overall, interior looks pretty good though.
The most open and competitive market in the world (thought not perfect of course) is the North American one. So if Japanese cars do well here, they should do well elsewhere, all other factors being equal.
I would also take issue with the assumption that European car buyers are "smarter" than North American ones!
I wouldnt. Not when cars like the Chevy Impala and Ford Taurus can still make it on to the top ten sales charts. Its not that Ford or Chevy cant make a decent sedan. Ford has the Mondeo and hot rod Falcon, and GM has several Opel sedans that are much better than the Impala ever was. What did we get? The contour, and the Cadillac Catera.
Many North Americans prefer larger cars and also lower-priced larger cars. The Impala is a prime example of such a car. None of the other Opel or Ford cars are in the same size category.
Europeans often prefer smaller cars for a variety of reasons: fuel efficiency, crowded roads, narrower lanes, high taxes on larger cars, etc.
But we get off-topic . . .
I wrote: "Her assumption is, if the Europeans have embraced something, it may have merit (speaking of cars)."
I cannot support the notion that my American born, 1/2 Italian 1/2 Polish wife thinks Europeans are smarter (or dumber) than North Americans (car buyers that is).
I, too, agree that "if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere" -- hence the car makers of the world do seem to court North American buyers with foundation. For indeed it has been true (but the future is yet to be seen -- thinking of China, he thought) that if you could bring a car to the North American consumer and be successful, you have truly produced a world class car.
Today, this part of the world is still the sanity check or litmus test for Car Companies the world over.
"if you could bring a car to the North American consumer and be successful, you have truly produced a world class car."
Thats not true at all. There are plenty of world market designed cars that work here (the European cars, and Mazda) but most of the cars designed for the American market would definitely NOT work elsewhere, except maybe Canada. How many Ford F-150s do you think Ford sells in Europe? Or China, Japan, or Australia? How about Chevy Suburbans? Id say most of the entire line up of the domestic 3 would definitely NOT work anywhere but here.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Suffice it to say I was not pleased and walked out.
I said if you could bring a car here, then you suggest that European cars work here (and include Mazda) -- that was exactly my point.
I'm so confused, I thought the F-150 was MADE in America, not brought here from elsewhere. Wait a minute, the "domestic 3" are not made in North America. Now when did this happen.
Like the M's from Infiniti, my contention was that if you make a car and your car is exported to the US and you are successful, you stand a better than even chance of being sucessful. As small a market as the US is for many companies (from European countries especially, for example), they currently "need" to succeed in the US.
And, in point of reference, I assumed that Ford F-150s and Suburans were NOT imported into North America, if they are, as your post suggests, I stand corrected.
When I talked with the Infiniti salesrep he told me I could order a car, it would be built in Japan and brought here on a ship and the whole process would take 12+ weeks.
Makes no sense to me to build F-150s in Europe and ship them here.
Just kidding.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Test drove the M45 Sport recently here in New England. Quite the ride and the power is phenominal. Also, the dealer hung with the MSRP only position. It should be interesting to see when this position will relax .................
For some folks, dealer relationships are of great importance (I am one of those who feels that way). The justification for buying from an authorized Internet dealer is up to you. It is certainly not "illegal" as far as I can tell.
If you have a long term established relationship with a dealer, I would hope you would consider the "value" of perpetuating that relationship.
If you have zero value in the relationship with the XYZ dealership -- then buy it from the cheapest source and have it maintained by the closest or best Infiniti dealer you can find.
As one who has dealt with a very small boutique home theater company as a customer, I have seen customers demo speakers, A/V Pre's and Amps and big screen TV's for hours -- and then walk out the door and order the product off the Internet totally "stealing" from the Home Theater retailer who, after all, spent time with you for free in exchange for the possibility you would buy from him/her. That just seems slimy.
If I actually build a relationship with an Infiniti dealer, I will buy from that dealer. I have a relationship with an Audi dealer and, while I do want a good price, I do believe there is an inherent value in the relationship. It may manifest itself immediately or later -- but I do believe it will manifest itself over time.
This two-way loyalty is but one reason I am finding it so difficult to leave Audi for Infiniti -- the benefits of the relationship with the Audi dealer over what is now almost 30 years (with the same dealer) keep showing up time and time again.
And, it is MORE than free soda, pastry and other libations -- it is "breaks" cut for us with service and loaner cars and "extras" all the time. It is as if this dealer wants to keep us as customers. I would almost find it unethical to buy somewhere else -- at least if I buy another Audi.
So, if you have a relationship with a dealer, build upon it -- you will probably get a discount off the car. If you don't have a relationship -- buy your Infiniti from one of the several Internet dealers who will sell at cost plus.
Drive it like you live.
57% matches with 42months for all 5 models.
Hope this helps, cybersol
As one who has done exactly that, I gotta say I dont agree. You buy the demo equipment..once. It costs nothing but electricity to show something to a potential customer. If they wanted my business, they shouldnt charge such outrageous mark-ups. Its just business. For example, I auditioned some speaker cables, decided on Audioquest Bedrock. Dealer wanted around $65\foot. I got it online for less than $25\foot. That was years ago though, and now most online places let you "rent" cables in your own home, with your own equipment, for anywhere from 15 to 45 days or so. Most dealers wont do that. Their loss.
To try and get something on topic, I dont feel I owe my business to anyone. I've bought 3 Lexus vehicles from Rahal because Rahal is the only dealer in the area. If there was somebody else who could beat them, then good bye, Bobby.
Wow, I am surprised to hear that kind of analysis from someone who apparently is interested in expensive cars. Do you really believe that there is no cost in providing a bricks-and-mortar retail establishment other than a one-time cost of demo equipment? Does anyone really believe that an internet retailer works off of the same margin as a store-front?
Even as someone who shops carefully and hates to overpay, I don't necessarily expect a local retailer to meet the lowest possible price from the cheapest fly-by-night internet-only seller-- but I certainly wouldn't be willing to pay over twice as much, either (as in your speaker cable example). But even taking that example, in my experience if you went back to your local store owner, showed him/her your internet quote, and asked him/her to give you a reasonable proposal, more often than not you will get a deal that's competitive.
If price is truly one's only concern, then they should shop on the internet and use the info available there for their decision-making. Of course, all of this is IMHO.
According to a great book, called Blown to Bits, "car dealers are sitting ducks." I believe that there would be an equalization if there would be a small charge for the "consultation" involved in selling some products, then a larger discount would be possible.
Of course, if you believe Blown to Bits, the consumer will dictate what may be the ultimate demise of some retail sectors. Sure I can buy a home theater from Costco, but it seems on the verge of unethical to make the full service retailer incur the expense of marketing to you (or me) and then after the free education buying the product elsewhere.
The reason for the markups, in part, is to COVER the cost of sales which includes education for the sales rep and, more importantly for you and me as customers.
I don't want to overpay -- but my sense of fair play says it is not a good practice to shop with no intention of buying at bricks and then buy at clicks after bricks spent the time, money and in the example, the cost of opening the doors (which does include electricity) just to educate the customer.
I THOUGHT, at the time that a retailer named the Great Indoors had a good thing going for them and for the customer, when they required a $500 fully refundable deposit to meet with a consultant when you were about to undergo a bathroom or kitchen remodel.
Of course in their case, they went too far, demanding 100% full prepayment for any remodeling job no matter how small or large. Ultimately, Sears, their parent, pulled the plug.
The one concept I appreciated, however, was the consultative approach and their charging for the service (fully refundable) as it did keep the customers "serious."
To each his own -- but please don't suggest that it is appropriate to virtually scam a retailer when you have no intention of buying from "bricks."
Car dealers may be their own worst enemy, but I just think it is inappropriate to use the dealer for product education and then buy from the Internet dealer who has provided you with nothing.
Most botique places that I've experienced are much the same way. The equipment just gets more expensive. For example, one place I went to was a huge McIntosh retailer. Guess what speakers and amps were pushed the hardest? If I go someplace to buy this type of equipment, I dont want to be marketed to, and I dont want to be educated either. I've already read all the info about it, both from the company itself and reviewers, and I just want to listen for myself.
Cars are the same way. I'm not a person that goes to a dealership and goes "gee, I just dont know what I want, what can you show me?". If I'm there, I'm there to drive a specific car that I already know all about. Just give me the keys and get out of my way.
Back before the couple of Edmunds boards that catered mostly to car sales "professionals" were rendered read-only, I put this forward. It was explained to me that the great unwashed, who routinely do upside-down deals &/or can't get financing from a real bank, to say nothing of the people who "need to be sold" a car (rather than just purchasing one), couldn't function in such an environment.
Besides which, the dealer cabal, most of which are very well represented by state lobbyists, would never, never (ever) allow such a thing to happen. Cutting out the middleman makes lots of sense to everyone but the middleman.
But I think it will happen, eventually. Can't be soon enough for me.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle