"Discovered that the tires were 40-41 lbs instead of the recommended 33, which means that the dealer didn't check. We'll see how it drives with the lower tire pressure. "
If the dealership personnel do not even check / adjust tire pressures, I wonder what else they actually check before delivery . . - Ray Shudder . .
Mark I noticed you ordered your M35X with a spoiler-I have ordered the M35X-but did not order the spoiler-I called the dealer yesterday and he wants 600.00 to install a spoiler on it - I need to check and see how this will change the lease cost - It's now 745.00 a month (includes tax) MSRP 54510.00 - got 2500.00 off MSRP(Premium Package, Chrome wheels) 39 month 12K 0-down- ( you definitely got a better deal than me-congrats-My only consolation? - company car) My questions are-Is your spoiler dealer installed or factory? and how did you decide on a spoiler? Have you seen one with a spoiler? Picture on the internet? Thanks
I've seen the spoiler on the car in person. It looks pretty sharp. It completes the look well on the Sport. I've also seen one with the dealer installed ground effects kit. $2270 It's not bad looking, either. Only problem we had with it was that it was on a white M non-Sport and they didn't do a very good job of matching the color. The M's color was more of a metallic or pearlescent white and the kit was painted a basic, vanilla white, it seemed. If it was that noticeable on the showroom floor, I can only imagine how glaring it would be in sunlight.
I think I prefer comparing the sell price to invoice - just gives a better picture on what the dealer is making on the deal. For an M45 Sport w/tech and journey the MSRP is $56,060 (invoice of $51,215). I'm not sure what the extra $800 is for but it probably has a retail price of $689 so your total invoice is $51,904. You paid $2,279 over invoice and got a money rate of 0.00197. I paid $2,000 over invoice but the dealer offered me a money rate of 0.00225 for 42 months, 15K.
You got a much better rate so now I have to go back to my dealer and try to match it. If I use your numbers but change the money rate to 0.00225 the lease payment increases to $643.78 or $1,040 over the course of the lease. I wonder if the fact that you bought down the lease had any impact on the money rate.
The GMs I've talked to have always explained that you end up paying more depreciation than the car's worth on long-term leases. So you may get a better payment, but when it's time to turn the car in, if you're trying to get another Infiniti and use the "equity" in the car you're turning in to get you a better deal, it's highly unlikely that you'll have any because the lease was so long. I've never leased, I've always bought, because I tend to keep cars for 8-9 years, however, I had a friend who leased an Expedition for 48 months and ended up getting screwed on his next deal (an Explorer) when he turned it in. Granted, we're talking a Ford product (which has little to no value) in comparison with an Infiniti product (which tends to hold value well), but the leasing concept is still the same. Longer term leases tend to get the consumer on the back end, even if you save a few bones in monthly payments.
Sounds like your dealer may be trying to play a little hardball with you; if you feel more comfy with the 39 months, stick to your guns. If you have a higher payment, and can afford it, it might be the best way to go for the M. Or you can go with the 42 months. It's up to you. I'm not really good with getting deals on leases; I can only pass along the knowledge of those guys in the business that have passed it along to me. But if you were buying, that'd be another story! :-)
When leasing, a general rule of thumb is "NEVER" exceed 39 months. Also, never exceed the factory warranty in miles or time. The instant you do that, the residual or money factor or something, beats me what, seems to make the car actually cost more per month than on some of the shorter leases.
I looked into a 42 month lease on the Infiniti for about 11 seconds just because the bumper to bumper warranty is so good and long (60,000 miles) and the needed "maintenance" is actually quite minimal -- even if you prefer oil changes every 5,000 miles (with syn oil) rather than the factory 7,500. But the 36 and 39 month leases were just more attractive (and remember NEVER EVER put money down on a lease, send it to charity or give it to a relative or friend).
If you lease for 39 months @ 15K per year, the car will be worth more on the used market since it will still have a decent factory warranty left.
If you lease for 36 or 39 months and you keep the car in very good shape, you will almost certainly be "incented" by Infiniti (or GMAC or Audi Financial) to re up for another new car from them -- one way they can do this is to let you out of your lease with little to no penalty (Audi has gone as high as 5 months early out -- and in 2003 they went a full 12 months during a sluggish period of sales) -- typical early outs are 3 months. So a 39 month lease means in all probability 36 months and 36 months may mean 32 or 33 months. You can't, however, "count" on such incentives and you may have to ASK for them -- but they often exist.
If you don't need a 15,000 mile per year lease, for Pete's sake don't pay for one -- on the other hand, it will be less money to go with the 15K per year one, even if you think your number will be somewhat less. Our former CFO always did a new Cadillac every 24 months and his lease was for 40,000 miles (the buy up front was less than the buy out back, the way he figured he could lock in a lower rate by buying now rather than later.)
I keep reading about these fantastic lease deals y'all are getting and then I get to the terms, 12,000 miles, 42 months and some ungodly amount of up front money. Then I read and re-read the post looking for the justification for the decision made and in virtually every case I am unable to find out why if you are able to put that much money down without a second thought on a $50,000+ car why you couldn't just put the down money into a money market account (which I know is a paltry return) and just draw the difference out each month. If you invested the money in a stock club or with your own broker, or a mutual fund or your IRA or 401(k) or Section 125 cafeteria plan or Rabbi Trust or Top Hat program you would stand a much better chance of having something to show for your time and trouble than the $0.00 you will absolutely have to show for a cap cost reduction on a lease.
Well, I'm impressed that Edmunds put up those pretty harsh responses.
However, calling the writers "utter morons" was out of line, don't you think?
Methinks that if a poster called another poster an "utter moron" in this forum, pat would erase it and send an email to that person faster than you can blink.
Looking for some feedback on this question. I'm choosing between a 36, 39 or 42 month lease. My big issue is when is the best time of the year to end a lease? If I sign a 36 month lease now it will end in April 2008 which leaves me in a position to buy a 2008 model that has been out for six months or so or maybe an early introduction 2009 model. If I get a 39 month lease it will end in July 2008 meaning that I'm about 3 months away from most new 2009 models but I believe way too late in the year for a 2008 model - if I get a new car then it will be a year old in three months. Maybe they will extend the lease to give me a crack at the 2009s?? If I get a 42 month lease it will end in October, 2008 just in time for a good selection of 2009 models. I know your not a big fan of the 42 month lease but this is one reason I'm considering it. Any of your insightful input will be appreciated.
I know that this isn't a lease forum, but I must chime in...
Regarding Mark's statements, I can't 'buy' into some of you logic. I understand not wanting your lease term to exceed the cars warranty, but at 42 months and 15K/year, that's not a problem. I have heard the proclamation 'NEVER' lease over 39 months, but have NEVER read any reasonable justification. Someone needs to put some logic behind that statement.
As far as buying down the lease, I have found this to be fairly effective leverage to get a lower sell price and hence maximize the impact on the depreciation portion of the monthly payment. I also use this to help close the deal quickly. I know what I want and what I want to pay. If the dealer accepts, then why waste time to save an extra $10 a month. Even over the life of the lease, this doesn't compensate me for even one additional weekend (shopping for a car) away from my bike, or family. Furthermore, your 'finance' portion of you monthly payment is dependent on your 'adjusted cap. cost.' If you buy down the lease, you reduce the overall money that you are having to pay a finance fee on. It's not much - but neither is the interest on a money market account.
The bottom line is that no one lease fits all individuals. I personally don't feel that shopping every dealer against one another just to save a couple/few hundred dollars over the life of a lease is the right approach. If you understand the numbers, you just have to make them right for you, and make sure that your dealer is at least competitive.
I actually sent my dealer the offer and told them that if they accept my numbers as stated, I WON'T shop them around. They did, and I bought. Now I'm spending my weekends enjoying my car and free time. I understand that you want your money to work for you, but time is also money, and I find my time VERY valuable.
And that's jus' me... but I do appreciate your point of view...
Your post deserves thoughtful responses. I will attempt to respond to this with reasoned discourse.
I cannot imagine how or why paying any money up front stimulates the dealer to deal with a customer in any form that increases his/her motivation or his/her benefit.
Of course I do not know if each and every transaction works in the following fashion, but I am comfortable that the spirit of my remarks is accurate.
My friend, who until recently, owned an Audi, Porsche and VW dealership (two separate dealerships, one Audi/Porsche one VW), told me that his revenue was enhanced via a percentage of the amount NOT paid in cash. The more paid in cash, the less his revenue and income. He would always, therefore, attempt to sell his cars with 0% down. He shared with me that the Porsches and VW's were most likely to be leased or financed at 100% and that he attempted to suggest to all his customers to lease or finance 100%. Even back in the day when the banks played (sometimes) he said that 1/4 to 1/2 % of the amount financed was his revenue. Customers paying in cash, then, reduced his income.
If for any reason whatsoever any person wants to put money down on a lease there is nothing wrong with that if that action makes the person doing so "satisfied." Buying/leasing/acquiring a car is obviously quite emotional. All the facts in the world will not convince anyone that one method is superior to the other one. My parents believed in paying cash for everything, except the mortgage, and even then they put maximum cash down. In certain periods of our economic history this was costly. Many of us refinanced our houses during the recession of 2000 - 2003 for several points below our then current mortgages -- and didn't take money out. All my "advisors" encouraged me to take money out of my house and they all had sound reasons for doing so. I ignored them.
I cannot figure out why any money down on a closed end lease can ever work financially. I can absolutely understand (figure out) how doing so works emotionally and psychologically. This does not make the decision to do so unwise, unsound, paranoid or foolish. It makes the person who does so comfortable, I presume. Who can put a price on this comfort? It may be $10's or $20's of dollars per month. I can imagine many things that are worth that much "peace of mind."
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The general argument for the 39 month premise has a lot to do with the market and the timing of new car arrivals, depreciation and other somewhat more statistical events. A 42 month old Infiniti may or may not fit this model. I have heard my car sales buddies (who sell VW's) suggest that more and more cars are being leased and leased for 48 months due to the 4 year 50,000 mile warranties offered by VW. I did not ask him if this was just a way to, as he says, "get the deal done." I do know that for some leasing arms, the payments for longer terms actually go up. Some of the European cars lease for more per month at 42 months than at 36 -- so a longer lease, somewhat counter-intuitively, costs more per month. But, but, but, if the customer doesn't ask, then let them have a 42 month lease especially if it costs more than a 36 month lease per month. Just don't lie to the customer.
If the Infiniti keeps going down in price as the term goes up and the warranty is still in effect on the very last day of the lease, you are probably wise to go for the longest term you feel good about.
BMW's are not very friendly to lease much beyond 36 months, other cars are able to look good up through 39 months.
One key data point -- milage is important. If you, like my friend, do not, ever, put more than 10,000 miles per year on a car, a longer lease is actually OK. He leased a big buck German for 48 months, 10,000 miles per year which matched the 4 year 50,000 warranty sufficiently to grant him a really sweet lease payment on a 7 series BMW, similar to the lease payment the rest of us slobs got on a 3 year 45,000 mile lease on a lesser car.
I agree, no one lease fits all individuals. No answer to almost any question fits all cases. I am in "application systems" as a field of endeavor -- my clients for over 20 years now ask me questions and I have, literally, never had a systems or application software question asked of me that the true and accurate answer wasn't "it all depends" [on the answer you give to the next questions].
I bet you have beaten the deals I have accepted, or at least some of them. I also assume I have bettered your deals too. My life is too short to grieve over these losses on my part -- it is certainly too short to gloat over the ones in which I have triumphed.
Generally speaking I stand by my statements of term, 39 months, and "within the warranty" period for leases. I certainly cannot work out any reason to put money down on a closed-end leased car. But this does not mean someone else's reasons are being evaluated by me as being wrong for them -- but they are wrong for me.
Buy what grows in value, rent what shrinks in value. Do not invest in a sure to depreciate asset -- unless your eyes are wide shut.
The last few lines of Mark's last post are accurate in my opinion, to a point. If you are the type of person who 1) has the cash and 2) keeps cars for long periods of time, you will do better financially with the acquistion of a vehicle by paying cash for it. If one keeps a car for the long haul, say more than 7 years or so, I believe you make out on the back end.
My cars won't be worth much at the end of my time with them, I'll drive them into the ground.
I think leasing is best for people who like to turn cars (and Mark whom I respect based on his always good and thoughtful posts) appears to fall into that category. Leasing is also good from a tax perspective because you are not subject to luxury auto depreciation limitations.
I just had the dealer transfer my Giovannas from my G35. I am not sure about the offset. The rims are 20" x 8.5" and the tire size is the exact same thickness that comes on the 19" factory rims, but in a 20". The car is outside and I am not going to look, but I do have photos. I know that they had trouble with the psi monitor at first and the tire swap took all day, due to the complete break down for each rim and rebuild with pressure monitor in my custom rims. The monitors work fine and give reading for each tire properly. You have to stay with the same thickness and not a lower profile or the monitors will not fit and/or pot hole could damage with lower profile tire.
what is a fair money rate for a lease in Florida. I went to the dealer today I am trying to get the best deal possible. They are not coming down much off of MSRP. Thanks in advance for any advise.
The key is CASH or zero % or near zero percent financing. I agree with your remarks completely. I asked the BMW dealer who just leased my wife a new BMW "how many" -- she said 80% of the cars the dealership "sells", here in conservative, German, Cincinnati, are leased.
Therefore, however, notwithstanding, I let my comments stand.
I've just ordered my M35X a few days ago... can't wait to get it... Regarding Nissan/Infiniti paint, I've got a 1995 240, with 290K on it, body looks so great still I'm keeping it as my toy... I'm very impressed with the continuing new look and lack of rusting especially when I'm in Ottawa, the road salt capital ! I get young tuners asking me what year the 240 is all the time... This was one of my prime reasons for going Infiniti...If my Nissan has this kind of longevity and long term great looks, the M must be the same or better.
I would like to buy the M35 and live in Seattle. The dealer here won't discount below sticker price and Portland dealer wants above sticker. Any ideas on how to buy it (preferably west of the Mississippi) from a dealer at lower cost? I would drive it back to Seattle myself.
I bought mine from an "Internet" dealer -- the physical dealership is in Denver. I live in Cincinnati.
The transaction started by using their web site configurator which allows you to build the car and as the car is being built the MSRP and the Invoice are simultaneously displayed.
When you are done, you enter your e-mail address.
Sometime later that same day you will receive an e-mail introducing the Internet sales manager to you and more or less explaining the process.
The cars are sold at +Invoice either in dollars or %. The G's are Invoice + $0.00, for instance. Today's price ? Who knows. If you like the deal, you give them a credit card number and $1,000. They will email or fax you a credit ap. You work out all the details in advance, term, miles, etc for the lease. When the credit ap is accepted (which takes no more than an hour, probably a lot less) your credit card is charged and the car will be ordered one month after you place your order with a lead time from 90 to 120 days (they claim it will be in earlier, but felt it prudent to set expectations something like "it usually takes less time, BUT, just in case, we need to inform you that it might take 'this long'.")
In my case, the delivery of the car will be to Columbus, Ohio which if you ever have looked on a map is about 100 miles north east of Cincinnati. I am in Columbus at least once a month on business and my relatives live there so this 100 minute trip as I call it is no big deal. The dealership is open 7 days a week with service 6 days a week.
My Cincinnati dealer and/or my south Dayton, Ohio dealer are both much closer and the "free loaner" program that goes with the M's is an Infiniti sponsored program and you will receive the same benefits with respect to service regardless of where you buy the car.
HOWEVER -- if you have been to your Infiniti dealer and made contact with a sales rep -- in other words if you did not go directly to the GM of the dealership, you may find some of your interactions to be somewhat awkward.
I live in the Bay area. The closest dealer offered $1000 below invoice and implied he could do better. I called the Costco car program and they referred me to a dealer near San Francisco Airport (Infiniti of Serramonte). They told me the M45 was not included in their Costco program but still gave me $2500 off retail and also offered a lot more for my trade in.
On another subject--I really enjoy driving my M45 sport. A few annoyances, however: The seat memory controls are not illuminated and are hard to find, especially at night. The garage opener buttons on the rear view mirror are not illuminated and also hard to find at night. The navigation screen has to be adjusted manually (by pushing a button) for day and night instead of adjusting itself like the screen in my Mercedes. Relatively small but annoying problems. If there is a fix for these things, I would appreciate knowing about it.
I've always used Mobil 1 in my 2002 LS 430 and the 2003 BMW 530i I just traded in for my M35. Anyone have any suggestion on the pros or cons of using Mobil 1 in the M35? With frequent oil changes it may be academic.
The brightness of the navigation screen is “automatic” but it relies on the headlight switch to make that determination. A problem if you drive with your headlights on during daylight. I agree that the garage door opener needs to be illuminated. I keep going for the mirror status light. My biggest disappointment the car (M45 Sport with Nav and Journey) is the audio system. I’m sure that 99.9% of M owners will disagree with me on this! The system is good but not even close to my 98 GS300 with Nakamichi Audio System. The Mark Levinson in the 2006 GS is simply awesome, unparalleled in the industry. Unfortunately the M’s audio can not hold a candle to either of these systems. I was well aware of this when I bought the M but is still a major disappointed to me. There is no way to upgrade the system. Bose must be ashamed of their product as they will not disclose the specifications of the system. That’s like a car manufacturer keeping the HP, torque, etc. a secret.
This is from the Bose website -
Can I get a list of technical specifications?
No, because our custom-engineered, complete system solutions largely supersede conventional audio measurements. Even some basic building blocks have been redefined—including amplifiers, speakers and equalizers. But most importantly, our integrated systems deliver results significantly different from those of conventional systems with individual, unmatched components. With a Bose automotive sound system, the location and design of the speakers can be much more important factors in determining output than a wattage power rating. The bottom line? The best way to test a Bose system's sound quality is to use your ears, not a list of specifications
"I was well aware of this when I bought the M but is still a major disappointed to me."
OK - I am really confused by this statement. You were aware of the system characteristics before purchase, but you are still disappointed (major-ly) - in this aspect of the M? Why? What am I missing? If this sub-system performance is such a major issue for you, and you knew it before purchase, why not buy something else - an M with Technology Package: including an upgrade to a Bose® Studio Surround™ sound system (still a Bose, but I understand it to sound "better") - or a new GS with the ML system, for example? No offense intended - I just really do not understand . . - Ray Confused. . .
Yeah, the 8 speaker Bose system in the Journey package will not come close to the Nakamichi or the Levinson in the GS. The 5.1 Bose in the M is about equal to the Levinson in the GS in my opinion.
I also live in the Bay Area, and my local (north bay) dealer does not include the M series in their Costco program either. They also do not seem very willing to deal.
Has anyone in Northern California found any Infiniti dealerships that sell the M series as part of the Costco program?
First let me clarify. I have the Tech package with 14 speaker Studio Surround.
There were going to be compromises with ether the M45 or the GS430. The balance fell in favor of the M. Even though I was aware that the audio system was one of the compromises with the M it still is a major disappoint to me when I am in my $57K car that has a significantly inferior audio system then my 7 year old GS (that I traded in). I don’t regret my purchase, just disappointed in this aspect of the car.
The salesman at Frontier Infiniti specifically told me that they were part of the Costco program and then told me that the Costco deal on the M was $500 off retail. That sounds like mis-information to me given that others here have mentioned $2500 off sticker for the Costco program. I told them I would wait until they get more realistic about pricing. I may check with Costco to see if they can supply any information on the M pricing and dealers.
I'd like to hear the 7 year old Mark Levinson, because after listening to a test CD in both the GS430 and the M45, I thought the M45 surround system sounded much better than the Levinson in the Lexus. I was even surprised at the quality of sound from the XM stations, which are normally not as full sounding as local FM. I'm sure it's a subjective thing. One thing is for sure, it beats the pants off the old Harmon Kardon system in my former BMW.
As an update, Costco says that you must go through them to be sure you are getting the Costco pricing. This involved calling them or signing up on the web site ( www.costco.com select services, auto sales). Once they have your information inclulding the make and model they forward that information to the dealer's Costco sales rep who then contacts you.Each dealer has a rep who is not usually a salesperson. That rep will show you to Costco pricing in writing. According to the Costco rep I spoke with, any other way may simply be typical dealer salesperson mis-information.
Try this out. Pick 2 nearby dealerships. Let's call them A and B.
Call dealership A, tell them that Joe Schmo over at dealership B offered you the M you want for $1500 (or $2,000, whatever) over invoice. Ask him if he can beat it. He will assuredly match it.
I have 2 dealers who have already written up purchase agreements for $2,500 over invoice/$1900 below sticker (because that was the figure I bluffed both of them with.) They both matched the bluff offer IMMEDIATELY, which leads me to believe there is A LOT more fat to trim from the sales price.
Fact is, like a few others have stated on these boards, if you wait until the last few days of the month, walk in to whichever dealership you like, preferably one where you have not already haggled, and offer $1,000 over invoice the dealer will almost surely accept the deal, or at the very least come very close to it.
These guys are making $2,000 or more on the back end, and if financing is involved even more, so it's not like the profit margin is slim here. You can do a hell of a lot better than $500 under invoice.
Fortunately for me there are 6 Infinity dealers within 25 miles, so I can try the end-of-the-month take-it-or-leave-it $1,000 over invoice offer at least 6 times. We'll see what the lowest offer is.
"No, because our custom-engineered, complete system solutions largely supersede conventional audio measurements. Even some basic building blocks have been redefined—including amplifiers, speakers and equalizers. But most importantly, our integrated systems deliver results significantly different from those of conventional systems with individual, unmatched components. With a Bose automotive sound system, the location and design of the speakers can be much more important factors in determining output than a wattage power rating. The bottom line? The best way to test a Bose system's sound quality is to use your ears, not a list of specifications"
LOL!!! Bose lists no specs for ANY of its products, not the lifestyle systems, not the headphones, absolutely nothing. "supersede conventional audio measurements" man I LOVE that bit. Apparently $50K amplifiers from Audio Research or Krell do not "supersede conventional audio measurements" nor do $200K speakers from Wilson Audio. But what do those guys know about audio? Nothing! Bose products come from the heavens themselves, and thus are so divine that any attempts to measure them "conventionally" causes the microphones to explode. /End rant.
After attending an M reception two weeks ago, I've been very eager to drive one. I finally did yesterday,and was astounded how pleasing a car it is. However, i thought the sunroof was far too small. i have noticed this on a fair amount of cars. Really,only older Benzes,the Toyota Avalon, and the current LS430 have really pleasingly large ones. I wonder if it's related to the curvature of the roof. At any rate, it's rather cooled my passion for the M35.
Richcream, good luck trying to play that tactic. I tried the same exact thing using the quote from one dealer with the Costco program and asked another dealer to beat it, but the 2nd dealer said that he can't touch the deal I had through the Costco Auto Program, which was $2,500 over invoice.
I don't know if the end of month thing is as big of a deal as it used to with all the "good" cars and many more choices available to buy.
I hope you can get a better deal, but so far what I'm reading and seeing is that the Costco Auto Program is as good of deal as you'll get today.
sjcbill, they have to show you the costco invoice and pricing sheet. I am not sure if the pricing structure with the Costco Auto program has one standard price nationally or if it is different across states. But once you are ready, go into the dealer and ask to see those 2 items and then what I did was actually call the Costco Auto Program 800# while at the dealer to confirm I was getting the appropriate price, which was $2,500 OVER invoice for an M35x.
Any audio system regardless of make can be measured with devises such as an Oscilloscope (noise, distorted signal). Bose technology such as the wave radio features a variety of ports, used to achieve higher base response, this is very different then their 10 ohm mobile audio products. These technology upgrades, such as the audio system, DVD video system and Navi are sourced out. The Bose radio in any Nissan/Infiniti product consisting of the components. The head unit, while indicated as Bose is a Clarion product. The Navi by Xanavi in most. Point being there are many factors such as the components and many others, such as the standing way of the vehicle and imaging that offer a great sounding audio system. Sedans are actually the most challenging vehicles to reproduce great sound in. Current owners can chime in but I believe there is a speaker placement in the driver and passenger seat, this could possible affect the imaging, similar in a way to a Jeep Wranglers sound bar. All audio systems bundled as OEM are very over priced to say the least. Superior audio systems (measured) can be had for half the price.
I have yet to listen to the audio system in the M I have experienced the Levenson and Nak systems in Lexus models, I for one don't see the value in either although, this is subjective. The Bose in my wives A4 is very base heavy while the Levenson and Nak offer better separation, just an opinion.
I recently put a deposit on an m35x with chrome wheels. After I did a better job of reading the brochure, I realized the chrome wheels are not like the m35 sport wheels, but the 8 spoke wheels just done in chrome. Does anyone have a link to a picture or have a picture to post of these wheels ?
"Bose technology such as the wave radio features a variety of ports, used to achieve higher base response"
Thats not quite correct. The wave radio and most Bose products use an almost unheard of elsewhere design called "transmission-line" where the driver fires directly into one very very long port which is twisted around inside the wave radio enclosure. By the time the energy makes it out, its 90 degrees out of phase with the sound coming directly from the driver, and combines with that to produce the total bass output. It allows Bose to get away with tiny drivers and small amplifiers. Nobody else uses it because it's totally impractical (large woofers would require ports 10-20 feet long) and it doesnt sound particularly good, especially compared to a sealed enclosure. It IS however, completely measurable. Bose just chooses not to post any specs.
lexusguy, yes your are correct, I should have been clearer and stated it is essentially a long port. (I'm not sure how many drivers/ports the wave uses). And yes the transmission line design is not widely used (I've never personally seen this in mobile audio) and as you described the cons are larger box design. The pros are that the sound is very accurate and there is a shallow roll off (around 6db)Transmission lines vary from other normal ported applications since there are rules of design such as line length ratio compared to FS, beginning and ending line length parameters and vent size to SD as opposed to simple math in other apps. Bose mobile audio does not use the same design as the wave radio.
For those that own the M or paid a premium for a higher end mobile audio system. The easiest and simplest way to measure how "good" it is. Would be to sit in any position of the vehicle (inside) preferably drivers seat. Use a CD that has good separation (usually jazz). Close your eyes and your ears should hear the sound as if it is coming from the upper center most part of the dash. Your ears should be able to separate the high hat, snare, etc. I'm almost sure the M's audio system accomplishes this. The number of speakers, isn't the most important part of the sound (quality). It's more so how they function together.
Actually Bose may be doing the right thing here. Most specification on audio equipment for cars are useless overstatements anyway. Simple wattage specifications are meaningless without knowing all of the test condition variables. And wattage tells nothing about how it sounds. The most influential components are the speakers for which specifications are rarely given. A good set of efficient speakers will likely sound better with a few watts than an array of cheap speakers with "lots of watts" driving them. Consumers choosing by comparing these numbers are making uninformed decisions. Often the differences, even in controlled test environments are meaningless or their importance is misinterpreted. In the end, the very best test is how it sounds.
Bose probably creates more polarizing opinions than any other audio manufacturer. For some they are innovators for others Bose stands for "Buy Other Stereo Equipment".
I have heard several Bose systems in autos (including my G35 coupe) and they are better than some and worse than some others. In general, they have better bass tightness compared to most auto audio systems I have experienced. A pair of outdoor Bose speakers I own (251's) are the best imaging speakers I have heard for outdoor use.
The issue with Bose I have is the comlete lack of specs, particularly with their non-auto products. When comparing speakers, it is important to know the specs, especially low frequency ranges and other key measurements. These are not the only deciding factor in choosing audio products, but help in accessing which system is right for your tastes.
undecided7, The two dealers I bluffed with the $2,500 over invoice ($1,900 below MSRP) have been calling me at least 3 times a day each. Apparently they are both very eager to move the car at this price.
I did not mention any kind of Costco program to either of them, I merely figured $1,900 off of sticker would be the lowest they would be willing to go. Their eagerness now tells me otherwise.
Look, you can accept that $2500 over invoice is the best deal you can get, and, in your area, maybe it truly is. If you have any other dealers in your area, don't mention "Costco" or any other discount plan, as those probably do have specific guidelines and sales prices....just plain bluff them that you have gotten a great offer from another dealer (name your figure within reason). Tell them that the only reason you have not yet taken that deal is because it will involve waiting or whatever you want to use as your excuse, and you want to see what they can do for you. I'd bet they'd match it, if not go lower to get you to sign.
I did so and now have 2 separate dealers calling me multiple times every day salivating to sell me a car at an arbitrary figure that I bluffed both of them with. My only mistake with these two was not bluffing lower. I'll let you know how it turns out in any case.
I agree, detailed specs are less important in a car. It would be nice though, to see a real RMS wattage rating, as Mark Levinson does for Lexus. I dont think the audio system is a deciding factor for anybody though, unless its REALLY awful. You're buying the car, not the stereo. Most Bose car stereos arent as good as the ML or Lexicon systems (and I think the Linn stereo in the new V8 Vantage is going to be awesome) but they get the job done. There's only so much fidelity you can put into a "listening room" putting out 65db+ of backround noise anyway.
As kobayashi was saying, the issue I have with them is mostly their home products, but this isnt really the forum for that.
I guess my point was that the specifications mean almost nothing to the average consumer so they are, at best, misleading. Certainly there are no standards that make a rating, such as wattage, comparable across manufacturers. In that light I think that Bose may be taking the high road in refusing to participate in the "specification wars".
As for a wattage rating, it is totally useless without also knowing other variables such as load impedance, distortion level, signal duration, number of channels driven, etc. It's much like the statistic I often hear that over 50% of accidents occur within 25 miles of home. This is a useless statistic unless you also know what percentage of driving is done within the same 25 miles of home.
Still learning about the features of my M. One thing that makes no sense: The integrated phone book holds 40 names and numbers but while the car is moving you can only access the first 15. You can't even access numbers 16 and above using voice commands. Does anyone know why this is and whether there is a way around it? I don't see how it contributes to safety, especially since you can dial a phone number using voice commands to say the digits or use the onscreen keypad while the car is moving.
I also discovered that you can program the key fob to automatically adjust the seat to your memorized position, eliminating the need to fumble for the adjustment buttons.
I am surprised you were not made aware of the ability to have the key set various personal settings on your car (as well as the steering wheel and mirrors). Did your salesperson offer to run through the features of your new car at delivery?
The tendancy for many is to skip the guided tour at delivery, however with the feature set on today's cars, that may be a mistake. Reading the manual has also become a college semester project. It is in the best interest of the saleperson that you are informed about your car - you may be selling more Infiniti's if you know all of the bells and whistles yourself.
Just have to let you know that my reading these forums was what solidified my decision to purchase an M35x. I placed a deposit down in mid march with a june delivery date. I was really excited waiting for the GS300AWD to come out, but I caught a pop up ad for the M and I was hooked. I went to the dealership that night and went to the opening party the next week. When the GS did come in to my local dealer, I test drove it, but it didnt speak to me like the M. I liked the color selection better on the GS, but I ended up going with black anyway so it didnt matter. I'm not crazy about the orange backlighting, but then again I hated the white background on my Jeep Liberty at first but I got used to it. Thanks again everyone!
Comments
If the dealership personnel do not even check / adjust tire pressures, I wonder what else they actually check before delivery . .
- Ray
Shudder . .
I noticed you ordered your M35X with a spoiler-I have ordered the M35X-but did not order the spoiler-I called the dealer yesterday and he wants 600.00 to install a spoiler on it - I need to check and see how this will change the lease cost - It's now 745.00 a month (includes tax) MSRP 54510.00 - got 2500.00 off MSRP(Premium Package, Chrome wheels) 39 month 12K 0-down- ( you definitely got a better deal than me-congrats-My only consolation? - company car) My questions are-Is your spoiler dealer installed or factory? and how did you decide on a spoiler? Have you seen one with a spoiler? Picture on the internet?
Thanks
The spoiler is NOT dealer installed, it is port installed.
Picture is in brochure.
I like the look.
Mine is a company car too (80%).
You're welcome.
You got a much better rate so now I have to go back to my dealer and try to match it. If I use your numbers but change the money rate to 0.00225 the lease payment increases to $643.78 or $1,040 over the course of the lease. I wonder if the fact that you bought down the lease had any impact on the money rate.
The GMs I've talked to have always explained that you end up paying more depreciation than the car's worth on long-term leases. So you may get a better payment, but when it's time to turn the car in, if you're trying to get another Infiniti and use the "equity" in the car you're turning in to get you a better deal, it's highly unlikely that you'll have any because the lease was so long. I've never leased, I've always bought, because I tend to keep cars for 8-9 years, however, I had a friend who leased an Expedition for 48 months and ended up getting screwed on his next deal (an Explorer) when he turned it in. Granted, we're talking a Ford product (which has little to no value) in comparison with an Infiniti product (which tends to hold value well), but the leasing concept is still the same. Longer term leases tend to get the consumer on the back end, even if you save a few bones in monthly payments.
Sounds like your dealer may be trying to play a little hardball with you; if you feel more comfy with the 39 months, stick to your guns. If you have a higher payment, and can afford it, it might be the best way to go for the M. Or you can go with the 42 months. It's up to you. I'm not really good with getting deals on leases; I can only pass along the knowledge of those guys in the business that have passed it along to me. But if you were buying, that'd be another story! :-)
I looked into a 42 month lease on the Infiniti for about 11 seconds just because the bumper to bumper warranty is so good and long (60,000 miles) and the needed "maintenance" is actually quite minimal -- even if you prefer oil changes every 5,000 miles (with syn oil) rather than the factory 7,500. But the 36 and 39 month leases were just more attractive (and remember NEVER EVER put money down on a lease, send it to charity or give it to a relative or friend).
If you lease for 39 months @ 15K per year, the car will be worth more on the used market since it will still have a decent factory warranty left.
If you lease for 36 or 39 months and you keep the car in very good shape, you will almost certainly be "incented" by Infiniti (or GMAC or Audi Financial) to re up for another new car from them -- one way they can do this is to let you out of your lease with little to no penalty (Audi has gone as high as 5 months early out -- and in 2003 they went a full 12 months during a sluggish period of sales) -- typical early outs are 3 months. So a 39 month lease means in all probability 36 months and 36 months may mean 32 or 33 months. You can't, however, "count" on such incentives and you may have to ASK for them -- but they often exist.
If you don't need a 15,000 mile per year lease, for Pete's sake don't pay for one -- on the other hand, it will be less money to go with the 15K per year one, even if you think your number will be somewhat less. Our former CFO always did a new Cadillac every 24 months and his lease was for 40,000 miles (the buy up front was less than the buy out back, the way he figured he could lock in a lower rate by buying now rather than later.)
I keep reading about these fantastic lease deals y'all are getting and then I get to the terms, 12,000 miles, 42 months and some ungodly amount of up front money. Then I read and re-read the post looking for the justification for the decision made and in virtually every case I am unable to find out why if you are able to put that much money down without a second thought on a $50,000+ car why you couldn't just put the down money into a money market account (which I know is a paltry return) and just draw the difference out each month. If you invested the money in a stock club or with your own broker, or a mutual fund or your IRA or 401(k) or Section 125 cafeteria plan or Rabbi Trust or Top Hat program you would stand a much better chance of having something to show for your time and trouble than the $0.00 you will absolutely have to show for a cap cost reduction on a lease.
But, that's jus' me.
Letters to the Editors
The only response I see is under the Photos column on the left side of the page.
However, calling the writers "utter morons" was out of line, don't you think?
Methinks that if a poster called another poster an "utter moron" in this forum, pat would erase it and send an email to that person faster than you can blink.
Looking for some feedback on this question. I'm choosing between a 36, 39 or 42 month lease. My big issue is when is the best time of the year to end a lease? If I sign a 36 month lease now it will end in April 2008 which leaves me in a position to buy a 2008 model that has been out for six months or so or maybe an early introduction 2009 model. If I get a 39 month lease it will end in July 2008 meaning that I'm about 3 months away from most new 2009 models but I believe way too late in the year for a 2008 model - if I get a new car then it will be a year old in three months. Maybe they will extend the lease to give me a crack at the 2009s?? If I get a 42 month lease it will end in October, 2008 just in time for a good selection of 2009 models. I know your not a big fan of the 42 month lease but this is one reason I'm considering it. Any of your insightful input will be appreciated.
Regarding Mark's statements, I can't 'buy' into some of you logic. I understand not wanting your lease term to exceed the cars warranty, but at 42 months and 15K/year, that's not a problem. I have heard the proclamation 'NEVER' lease over 39 months, but have NEVER read any reasonable justification. Someone needs to put some logic behind that statement.
As far as buying down the lease, I have found this to be fairly effective leverage to get a lower sell price and hence maximize the impact on the depreciation portion of the monthly payment. I also use this to help close the deal quickly. I know what I want and what I want to pay. If the dealer accepts, then why waste time to save an extra $10 a month. Even over the life of the lease, this doesn't compensate me for even one additional weekend (shopping for a car) away from my bike, or family. Furthermore, your 'finance' portion of you monthly payment is dependent on your 'adjusted cap. cost.' If you buy down the lease, you reduce the overall money that you are having to pay a finance fee on. It's not much - but neither is the interest on a money market account.
The bottom line is that no one lease fits all individuals. I personally don't feel that shopping every dealer against one another just to save a couple/few hundred dollars over the life of a lease is the right approach. If you understand the numbers, you just have to make them right for you, and make sure that your dealer is at least competitive.
I actually sent my dealer the offer and told them that if they accept my numbers as stated, I WON'T shop them around. They did, and I bought. Now I'm spending my weekends enjoying my car and free time. I understand that you want your money to work for you, but time is also money, and I find my time VERY valuable.
And that's jus' me... but I do appreciate your point of view...
I cannot imagine how or why paying any money up front stimulates the dealer to deal with a customer in any form that increases his/her motivation or his/her benefit.
Of course I do not know if each and every transaction works in the following fashion, but I am comfortable that the spirit of my remarks is accurate.
My friend, who until recently, owned an Audi, Porsche and VW dealership (two separate dealerships, one Audi/Porsche one VW), told me that his revenue was enhanced via a percentage of the amount NOT paid in cash. The more paid in cash, the less his revenue and income. He would always, therefore, attempt to sell his cars with 0% down. He shared with me that the Porsches and VW's were most likely to be leased or financed at 100% and that he attempted to suggest to all his customers to lease or finance 100%. Even back in the day when the banks played (sometimes) he said that 1/4 to 1/2 % of the amount financed was his revenue. Customers paying in cash, then, reduced his income.
If for any reason whatsoever any person wants to put money down on a lease there is nothing wrong with that if that action makes the person doing so "satisfied." Buying/leasing/acquiring a car is obviously quite emotional. All the facts in the world will not convince anyone that one method is superior to the other one. My parents believed in paying cash for everything, except the mortgage, and even then they put maximum cash down. In certain periods of our economic history this was costly. Many of us refinanced our houses during the recession of 2000 - 2003 for several points below our then current mortgages -- and didn't take money out. All my "advisors" encouraged me to take money out of my house and they all had sound reasons for doing so. I ignored them.
I cannot figure out why any money down on a closed end lease can ever work financially. I can absolutely understand (figure out) how doing so works emotionally and psychologically. This does not make the decision to do so unwise, unsound, paranoid or foolish. It makes the person who does so comfortable, I presume. Who can put a price on this comfort? It may be $10's or $20's of dollars per month. I can imagine many things that are worth that much "peace of mind."
========
The general argument for the 39 month premise has a lot to do with the market and the timing of new car arrivals, depreciation and other somewhat more statistical events. A 42 month old Infiniti may or may not fit this model. I have heard my car sales buddies (who sell VW's) suggest that more and more cars are being leased and leased for 48 months due to the 4 year 50,000 mile warranties offered by VW. I did not ask him if this was just a way to, as he says, "get the deal done." I do know that for some leasing arms, the payments for longer terms actually go up. Some of the European cars lease for more per month at 42 months than at 36 -- so a longer lease, somewhat counter-intuitively, costs more per month. But, but, but, if the customer doesn't ask, then let them have a 42 month lease especially if it costs more than a 36 month lease per month. Just don't lie to the customer.
If the Infiniti keeps going down in price as the term goes up and the warranty is still in effect on the very last day of the lease, you are probably wise to go for the longest term you feel good about.
BMW's are not very friendly to lease much beyond 36 months, other cars are able to look good up through 39 months.
One key data point -- milage is important. If you, like my friend, do not, ever, put more than 10,000 miles per year on a car, a longer lease is actually OK. He leased a big buck German for 48 months, 10,000 miles per year which matched the 4 year 50,000 warranty sufficiently to grant him a really sweet lease payment on a 7 series BMW, similar to the lease payment the rest of us slobs got on a 3 year 45,000 mile lease on a lesser car.
I agree, no one lease fits all individuals. No answer to almost any question fits all cases. I am in "application systems" as a field of endeavor -- my clients for over 20 years now ask me questions and I have, literally, never had a systems or application software question asked of me that the true and accurate answer wasn't "it all depends" [on the answer you give to the next questions].
I bet you have beaten the deals I have accepted, or at least some of them. I also assume I have bettered your deals too. My life is too short to grieve over these losses on my part -- it is certainly too short to gloat over the ones in which I have triumphed.
Generally speaking I stand by my statements of term, 39 months, and "within the warranty" period for leases. I certainly cannot work out any reason to put money down on a closed-end leased car. But this does not mean someone else's reasons are being evaluated by me as being wrong for them -- but they are wrong for me.
Buy what grows in value, rent what shrinks in value. Do not invest in a sure to depreciate asset -- unless your eyes are wide shut.
My cars won't be worth much at the end of my time with them, I'll drive them into the ground.
I think leasing is best for people who like to turn cars (and Mark whom I respect based on his always good and thoughtful posts) appears to fall into that category. Leasing is also good from a tax perspective because you are not subject to luxury auto depreciation limitations.
YMMV
Thanks in advance for any advise.
Therefore, however, notwithstanding, I let my comments stand.
This was one of my prime reasons for going Infiniti...If my Nissan has this kind of longevity and long term great looks, the M must be the same or better.
Thanks for the help.
The transaction started by using their web site configurator which allows you to build the car and as the car is being built the MSRP and the Invoice are simultaneously displayed.
When you are done, you enter your e-mail address.
Sometime later that same day you will receive an e-mail introducing the Internet sales manager to you and more or less explaining the process.
The cars are sold at +Invoice either in dollars or %. The G's are Invoice + $0.00, for instance. Today's price ? Who knows. If you like the deal, you give them a credit card number and $1,000. They will email or fax you a credit ap. You work out all the details in advance, term, miles, etc for the lease. When the credit ap is accepted (which takes no more than an hour, probably a lot less) your credit card is charged and the car will be ordered one month after you place your order with a lead time from 90 to 120 days (they claim it will be in earlier, but felt it prudent to set expectations something like "it usually takes less time, BUT, just in case, we need to inform you that it might take 'this long'.")
In my case, the delivery of the car will be to Columbus, Ohio which if you ever have looked on a map is about 100 miles north east of Cincinnati. I am in Columbus at least once a month on business and my relatives live there so this 100 minute trip as I call it is no big deal. The dealership is open 7 days a week with service 6 days a week.
My Cincinnati dealer and/or my south Dayton, Ohio dealer are both much closer and the "free loaner" program that goes with the M's is an Infiniti sponsored program and you will receive the same benefits with respect to service regardless of where you buy the car.
HOWEVER -- if you have been to your Infiniti dealer and made contact with a sales rep -- in other words if you did not go directly to the GM of the dealership, you may find some of your interactions to be somewhat awkward.
On another subject--I really enjoy driving my M45 sport. A few annoyances, however: The seat memory controls are not illuminated and are hard to find, especially at night. The garage opener buttons on the rear view mirror are not illuminated and also hard to find at night. The navigation screen has to be adjusted manually (by pushing a button) for day and night instead of adjusting itself like the screen in my Mercedes. Relatively small but annoying problems.
If there is a fix for these things, I would appreciate knowing about it.
This is from the Bose website -
Can I get a list of technical specifications?
No, because our custom-engineered, complete system solutions largely supersede conventional audio measurements. Even some basic building blocks have been redefined—including amplifiers, speakers and equalizers. But most importantly, our integrated systems deliver results significantly different from those of conventional systems with individual, unmatched components. With a Bose automotive sound system, the location and design of the speakers can be much more important factors in determining output than a wattage power rating. The bottom line? The best way to test a Bose system's sound quality is to use your ears, not a list of specifications
What a bunch of BS!
OK - I am really confused by this statement.
You were aware of the system characteristics before purchase, but you are still disappointed (major-ly) - in this aspect of the M?
Why?
What am I missing?
If this sub-system performance is such a major issue for you, and you knew it before purchase, why not buy something else - an M with Technology Package: including an upgrade to a Bose® Studio Surround™ sound system (still a Bose, but I understand it to sound "better") - or a new GS with the ML system, for example?
No offense intended - I just really do not understand . .
- Ray
Confused. . .
Has anyone in Northern California found any Infiniti dealerships that sell the M series as part of the Costco program?
There were going to be compromises with ether the M45 or the GS430. The balance fell in favor of the M. Even though I was aware that the audio system was one of the compromises with the M it still is a major disappoint to me when I am in my $57K car that has a significantly inferior audio system then my 7 year old GS (that I traded in). I don’t regret my purchase, just disappointed in this aspect of the car.
Try this out. Pick 2 nearby dealerships. Let's call them A and B.
Call dealership A, tell them that Joe Schmo over at dealership B offered you the M you want for $1500 (or $2,000, whatever) over invoice. Ask him if he can beat it. He will assuredly match it.
I have 2 dealers who have already written up purchase agreements for $2,500 over invoice/$1900 below sticker (because that was the figure I bluffed both of them with.) They both matched the bluff offer IMMEDIATELY, which leads me to believe there is A LOT more fat to trim from the sales price.
Fact is, like a few others have stated on these boards, if you wait until the last few days of the month, walk in to whichever dealership you like, preferably one where you have not already haggled, and offer $1,000 over invoice the dealer will almost surely accept the deal, or at the very least come very close to it.
These guys are making $2,000 or more on the back end, and if financing is involved even more, so it's not like the profit margin is slim here. You can do a hell of a lot better than $500 under invoice.
Fortunately for me there are 6 Infinity dealers within 25 miles, so I can try the end-of-the-month take-it-or-leave-it $1,000 over invoice offer at least 6 times. We'll see what the lowest offer is.
LOL!!! Bose lists no specs for ANY of its products, not the lifestyle systems, not the headphones, absolutely nothing. "supersede conventional audio measurements" man I LOVE that bit. Apparently $50K amplifiers from Audio Research or Krell do not "supersede conventional audio measurements" nor do $200K speakers from Wilson Audio. But what do those guys know about audio? Nothing! Bose products come from the heavens themselves, and thus are so divine that any attempts to measure them "conventionally" causes the microphones to explode. /End rant.
Has this been an issue for anyone else?
I don't know if the end of month thing is as big of a deal as it used to with all the "good" cars and many more choices available to buy.
I hope you can get a better deal, but so far what I'm reading and seeing is that the Costco Auto Program is as good of deal as you'll get today.
Good luck.
I have yet to listen to the audio system in the M I have experienced the Levenson and Nak systems in Lexus models, I for one don't see the value in either although, this is subjective. The Bose in my wives A4 is very base heavy while the Levenson and Nak offer better separation, just an opinion.
"I'm getting a M35x next week (18" wheels) and I prefer the look of the 19" wheels. Would you be interested in trading wheels?"
Sorry...markg8...but I have not bought an M35...yet...I am still looking....and still considering the Acura RL.
Thats not quite correct. The wave radio and most Bose products use an almost unheard of elsewhere design called "transmission-line" where the driver fires directly into one very very long port which is twisted around inside the wave radio enclosure. By the time the energy makes it out, its 90 degrees out of phase with the sound coming directly from the driver, and combines with that to produce the total bass output. It allows Bose to get away with tiny drivers and small amplifiers. Nobody else uses it because it's totally impractical (large woofers would require ports 10-20 feet long) and it doesnt sound particularly good, especially compared to a sealed enclosure. It IS however, completely measurable. Bose just chooses not to post any specs.
For those that own the M or paid a premium for a higher end mobile audio system. The easiest and simplest way to measure how "good" it is. Would be to sit in any position of the vehicle (inside) preferably drivers seat. Use a CD that has good separation (usually jazz). Close your eyes and your ears should hear the sound as if it is coming from the upper center most part of the dash. Your ears should be able to separate the high hat, snare, etc. I'm almost sure the M's audio system accomplishes this. The number of speakers, isn't the most important part of the sound (quality). It's more so how they function together.
I have heard several Bose systems in autos (including my G35 coupe) and they are better than some and worse than some others. In general, they have better bass tightness compared to most auto audio systems I have experienced. A pair of outdoor Bose speakers I own (251's) are the best imaging speakers I have heard for outdoor use.
The issue with Bose I have is the comlete lack of specs, particularly with their non-auto products. When comparing speakers, it is important to know the specs, especially low frequency ranges and other key measurements. These are not the only deciding factor in choosing audio products, but help in accessing which system is right for your tastes.
The two dealers I bluffed with the $2,500 over invoice ($1,900 below MSRP) have been calling me at least 3 times a day each. Apparently they are both very eager to move the car at this price.
I did not mention any kind of Costco program to either of them, I merely figured $1,900 off of sticker would be the lowest they would be willing to go. Their eagerness now tells me otherwise.
Look, you can accept that $2500 over invoice is the best deal you can get, and, in your area, maybe it truly is. If you have any other dealers in your area, don't mention "Costco" or any other discount plan, as those probably do have specific guidelines and sales prices....just plain bluff them that you have gotten a great offer from another dealer (name your figure within reason). Tell them that the only reason you have not yet taken that deal is because it will involve waiting or whatever you want to use as your excuse, and you want to see what they can do for you. I'd bet they'd match it, if not go lower to get you to sign.
I did so and now have 2 separate dealers calling me multiple times every day salivating to sell me a car at an arbitrary figure that I bluffed both of them with. My only mistake with these two was not bluffing lower. I'll let you know how it turns out in any case.
As kobayashi was saying, the issue I have with them is mostly their home products, but this isnt really the forum for that.
As for a wattage rating, it is totally useless without also knowing other variables such as load impedance, distortion level, signal duration, number of channels driven, etc. It's much like the statistic I often hear that over 50% of accidents occur within 25 miles of home. This is a useless statistic unless you also know what percentage of driving is done within the same 25 miles of home.
I also discovered that you can program the key fob to automatically adjust the seat to your memorized position, eliminating the need to fumble for the adjustment buttons.
I am surprised you were not made aware of the ability to have the key set various personal settings on your car (as well as the steering wheel and mirrors). Did your salesperson offer to run through the features of your new car at delivery?
The tendancy for many is to skip the guided tour at delivery, however with the feature set on today's cars, that may be a mistake. Reading the manual has also become a college semester project. It is in the best interest of the saleperson that you are informed about your car - you may be selling more Infiniti's if you know all of the bells and whistles yourself.
Just have to let you know that my reading these forums was what solidified my decision to purchase an M35x. I placed a deposit down in mid march with a june delivery date. I was really excited waiting for the GS300AWD to come out, but I caught a pop up ad for the M and I was hooked. I went to the dealership that night and went to the opening party the next week. When the GS did come in to my local dealer, I test drove it, but it didnt speak to me like the M. I liked the color selection better on the GS, but I ended up going with black anyway so it didnt matter. I'm not crazy about the orange backlighting, but then again I hated the white background on my Jeep Liberty at first but I got used to it. Thanks again everyone!