Toyota Prius

finestack

I ordered my Prius with Package4, for arrival in early January. Really wondering if anyone has the auto-dimming electrochromic rearview mirror with HomeLink, and can tell me if it has a built-in compass?

After-market compasses just don't cut it.

Thanks.

jchan2

The A4 Avant is over my $31K price range. The V70 is too. That leaves the V50. And the V50 isn't out yet, so I can't really judge it yet.

john1701a

> it usually decreases the tire contact patch

The latest & greatest tires remain absolutely flat, even at maximum pressure. There is no contact patch loss anymore, especially with a heavier than average vehicle like Prius.

My Prius tires (42 PSI for the first 18,000 miles then 44 PSI for the following 9,000 miles) had no uneven wear whatsoever. It was completely consistent from edge to center to other edge.

JOHN

john1701a

> Averaging more like 45 mpg. After 2,000 miles

Cold kills MPG (in all vehicle types, not just Prius). Break-in does too.

Once you've driven your Prius further and spring has finally sprung, MPG should skyrocket.

I've found the welcome of the warm season very exciting. All 3 years with my Prius, winter MPG dropped all the way to just 40. Then as summer approached, I watched it climb to 50. And with a 2004, you're likely to see averages climb to mid-50's.

JOHN

john1701a

> wondering if anyone has the auto-dimming electrochromic rearview
> mirror with HomeLink, and can tell me if it has a built-in compass?

The one I got with my 2004, didn't have a compass. Sorry.

The NAV system does though. You can view that (along with latitude & longitude) on the Multi-Display.

JOHN

jchan2

you can view where in the world you exactly are??? Sweet!

wco81

Also, is the acceleration noticeably different between electric-only and gas+electric modes?

backy

My main option to the Prius is the MPV (I have a minivan now). Compared to the MPV, the value equation is heavily tilted in favor of the Prius. I would never compare the Prius to other compacts because I can get a very good compact for $10k, and that kills the Prius in value.

I've driven the '03 Corolla and I think the Prius is at least as good in handling as the Corolla.

As for no tilt or telescope on the Prius' steering wheel... I could swear it tilted on my two test drives. Can an owner confirm that for us?

wwest

Prior to 04 if the A/C compressor needed to run the engine automatically started up. With the 04 the A/C compressor is driven via a dedicated electric motor.

In electric mode there is, literally, no acceleration. The only way to "accelerate" and remain in electric only is to only advance the throttle very lightly, (feathery??) as speed increases.

The control system starts the ICE automatically if the throttle (command) position is depressed rapidly or much beyond the acceleration torque level that can be supplied by the electrics only.

djasonw

The steering wheel does indeed tilt. It does not telescope, but very few cars in that price range do.

revnkevin

John, I was just wondering when the break in period over , and If you are going to use synthetic oil? I have just over 800 miles on my Prius. I love this car , I have had over 80 cars and this is by far my most favorite car ! Yes it takes some time to learn how to change you old bad driving habits. But the Prius helps me monitor my lead foot , and my old braking habits. Let the Prius regenerate your battery by coasting to a stop, instead of braking so much. By inflating the tires to 42 psi front and 40 psi in back , my average mpg is 50 mpg+ combined.

mdmetz

Posts with links to or URLs for sites that host "competing" automotive forums are considered violations of the Edmunds TOS and thus subject to deletion -- which, uh, means this post will soon look odd, since the one to which it responds will likely be deleted also.

raygunnot

My experience is similar to missmyaudi.

On the gas tank issue, unlike other cars I have owned (haven't bought a new one in 15 years...), there is no flap on the filler neck. Instead, there seems to be a rubber gasket there that provides an airtight fit over the unleaded nozzle. When the pump clicks off, I pull the nozzle partway out to let some air in. Then I pump some more...

After about 2 minutes of this, I have put over 2 gallons in beyond where it was when it first popped off. Now it behaves like an 11.5 gallon tank. When the fuel guage beeps and the last bar starts flashing, I can put a little over 10 gallons in this way. About 500 miles on the highway.

But it is a pain in the rear to have to do this every time I get gas. Does anyone know what Toyota says you are supposed to do?

Raygunnot

sizzle_leem

Hello, just wondering about whether anyone has been successful buying the 04' Prius at or under MSRP from a dealer in Southern California. The couple that I have talked to so far are charging a 2K premium.

Also, how successful have anyone been getting the dealers to tack on an extended warranty and accessories? To me it seems that although there's not a lot of wiggle room to negotiate the sticker price, the dealerships should be flexible on these other things. Any thoughts?

alnvilma

I just filled for the first time with the last bar blinking. 'topping’ off' took 7.7 gallons with a 45.8 mpg calc driving in fairly cool weather (lots of cold starts, defog, short commutes and some freeway driving mixed in. ( the display calculated 42+)
 The check engine light came on three times but seems to have self corrected for good. I initially have the tire PSI @ 37/35.
 I'm learning refined driving techniques but generally, drive the same as always.
 Overall, I’m genuinely happy with this car and its unique behavior. It is fun to stretch the stealth mode and drive silently down the road at +/- 35mph.
 Although the rearview area is abbreviated, I can recommend the wiper option on that flat hatch glass.
 I did not intend to trade my ECHO but after driving this on intro day, I ordered one the next day, took delivery in 3 weeks and I’m not missing the ECHO a bit. For me, it has a near luxury feel, leading edge industry technology and great mpg too. What a package!
p.s. Try not to compare it to anything other than decked-out economy cars or other hybrids. Performance and luxury autos really have nothing to do with this forum.
Wet in Oregon

ateixeira

Some people are having trouble finding one to test drive. I drove one at this event:

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2004/prius/tour/tour.html

They are still going to go to New Orleans, Houston, and Dallas, FWIW. This is great because there is no sales pressure. Oh, and you get $10 at Whole Foods Market. Buy your lunch or something.

-juice

blueguydotcom

The energy bill, which could make it to President Bush's desk to sign this week also would make buyers of cars and light-duty trucks with either hybrid or modern diesels eligible for tax credits of up to $3400 per vehicle, provided they meet certain performance and fuel-saving criteria. Bigger incentives would be available for fuel cell vehicles and larger trucks. The provision could help drive sales of 500,000 alternative-fuel vehicles over the next five years, and incentivize automakers to bring more clean diesel vehicles to market.-Jim Burt



I snagged that from the The Car Connection.

Now, I have a big commute daily (90+ miles a day) and I'm piling miles on my 330i. I'm not happy paying for premium gas and getting 23 mpg while eating through tires that'll cost me a grand to replace.

So anyway, I noticed that the Prius has a tax credit but that program was supposed to be winding down. It appears this new energy bill will prop up the credits again.

So what's the current tax credit on the prius? 2k? 2.5k? Any advance word on what it will be with the new bill?

ateixeira

I think it's a $2000 deduction. At most that's an $800 credit, if you're in the 40% tax bracket. Most people will get less, though.

But...a friend went to a dealer in MD, and they told him he would not have to pay state sales tax. In MD that's 5%, or $1200 on a $24k model.

Plus, it qualifies you to drive in HOV lanes, so you'll pass even BMW M3s with one single passenger.

-juice

blueguydotcom

think it's a $2000 deduction. At most that's an $800 credit, if you're in the 40% tax bracket. Most people will get less, though.

Everything reads tax credit, not tax deduction. I just checked the IRS forms and they allow you to snap the amount off your owed taxes.

But...a friend went to a dealer in MD, and they told him he would not have to pay state sales tax. In MD that's 5%, or $1200 on a $24k model.

Wow. In ca it's nearly 8%. Now that our new moron governor increased the deficit by 4 billion the car regristration tax is reduced by 2/3rds.

Plus, it qualifies you to drive in HOV lanes, so you'll pass even BMW M3s with one single passenger.

I just saw that on an EV site too. Unfortunately the only HOV lanes I could use consistently are for freeway onramps as San Diego only has 2 HOV lanes and they're pretty useless most of the time.

Still 50 mpg freeway and 60 city would mean even a leadfoot like me should get something in the 40s. That's a savings of over 1k a year. Wow.

ateixeira

Hey blue guy, long time no see. You gotta get another review up on the Test Drive threads. Maybe a Prius drive?

When you say credit, are you referring to the future credit? $3400 would be amazing. Everyone would consider one. I hope Toyota doesn't spike prices upward.

I drive by about 2 miles of HOV lane each day. But it just looks tempting, even for a short spurt. It would only save me 3 minutes, but still.

-juice

blueguydotcom

You gotta get another review up on the Test Drive threads. Maybe a Prius drive?

With my new commute it's a bear to find time.

As for tax credit/deduction I found this description as it makes a difference:

"Tax credit - A tax credit reduces your taxes directly. If you earn $1000 at a 10% tax rate, you owe $100 in taxes. A $100 tax credit would reduce your taxes by $100.

Tax deduction - A tax deduction reduces your taxable income. In the example above, a $100 tax deduction would reduce your taxable earnings by $100; but would reduce your taxes by only $10."

markjenn

I think the credit only applies to all-electric vehicles. For hybrids, it's a deduction.

Notwithstanding any changes due to changes in the code, of cours.

- Mark

john1701a

> just wondering when the break in period over,
> If you are going to use synthetic oil?

I did this morning, at 1999 miles.

JOHN

blueguydotcom

More research turned up a few things.

The current law has the Prius getting a 2k tax deduction which is really annoying.

The bill Bush may sign this week lists hybrids as elligible for tax credits through 2008.

Buy in 2003 and you're looking at 6 years of tax credits. That would pay for the car!

ateixeira

Hmm, I wonder if you have to make the payments in each tax year, prolly.

Still, if so, that is a killer incentive. Sales will start to fly.

-juice

fndlyfmrflyr

Right now, the $2000 2003 deduction for a car like a Prius goes on line 33 of Form 1040. This reduces income and is not a direct tax credit.

I don't know if the bill that has yet to be signed into law would be retroactive to January, 2003, or if the tax credit would start in January, 2004. It is very late in the tax year. Forms and instructions have already been approved and published.

blueguydotcom

You're right it may be too late. Even if it's the 2k deduction this year and credit thereafter, that'd be a nice deal

sms75

My experience is somewhat like missmyaudi's. I really like the car, but there are some things that have me wondering. When transitioning from gas to electric and back again, sometimes (and only sometimes) there is a distinct "jar" when the ICE drops off line or comes back on. It feels similar to a conventional car that has trouble shifting. I at first thought it might be the transmission, but now believe it is the electric/gas transition. It is frustrating in that I have no experience to know whether it's normal or abnormal. I've never had a car before where the engine stops and I keep going! If abnormal, is it something I am doing or is there something wrong with the car? With the several postings about the "CVT smooth shifting", I expected 0-60 as one long "smooth" ride. Sometimes it's not. The other thing I am not sure about is the display where it alternates showing the electric motor charging the battery or the battery driving the motor. My display sometimes flip-flops directions from charging to driving several times in just a few seconds, with no discernible change in speed, acceleration or road level. Is this normal? And in 300 miles of mixed driving, it has never charged to the eighth (top) bar. Usually it runs with six bars - occasionally up to seven, but quickly drops down to six again. Again, I'm left to wonder what I should expect and what is a sign of things not working. Any "old hands" (John1701 - help!) that can share their old/new experience? Did I just not read the owner's manual close enough?

Stephen

backy

Just read that the Energy Bill, passed by the House, is one vote away from passage in the Senate. It has $1.5 billion in tax credits for hybrid vehicles. This could get interesting...

sms75

We got our Prius last Friday night. They are coming in by onesies and twosies here in NC. The sales person told me they are telling folks that cars ordered now won't be here before Jan/Feb - every car coming in before then has already been "sold". The dealer was adamant about MSRP - not a penny less. But on the other hand, they could charge - and get - more than MSRP and they are not. I checked with several dealers in the Raleigh - Durham - Fayetteville area and they seem to all be playing that line. There was some "give" on the extended warranty.

masshockey

My experiences ares similar, in that I've never seen the battery diagram fully charged- I assume that's normal unless I happen to brake down a very long hill. I can feel the ICE transitions, but it's subtle, not a clunk. I find the acceleration with the CVT quite smooth, it's especially noticeable when hill climbing that you don't feel the car straining to maintain speed or accelerate.The comments about the repeated gas fill technique are interesting. I will try that before I assume that I have 3 gallons left with 1 box (150 mile range)! My daughter may have been the first to run out of gas with the initial model prius, I'd hate to have it run in the family!

little_pogi

There there a number of dealers in the Southern California distribution district that I found were selling at most MSRP.

Longo Toyota in El Monte with a $500 refundable deposit. It took only 28 days for my salesguy to get me one. His name is Allen Hon.

Bob Smith Toyota in La Crescenta. There are not a big dealer so it may take them a while to get you one from Toyota.

Symes Toyota in Pasadena and West Covina Toyota are also selling at MSRP.

Bill Wright Toyota in Bakersfield is another one. This may be one of the faster deliveries if you are willing to put a $500 refundable deposit and a long drive up north.

Claremont Toyota's Dave Castillo will sell at MSRP if he finds the color and options you want.

Crown Toyota in Ontario sells them at MSRP upon drop shipment. No reservations.

Hope these information helps.

john1701a

> My display sometimes flip-flops directions from charging to driving
> several times in just a few seconds, with no discernible change
> in speed, acceleration or road level. Is this normal?

Yes, that's completely normal.

Also, that's the remarkably smooth transission owners have been complimenting about. Imagine if you could actually feel all that flip-flopping. (Another is when accelerating hard; no thump like with an automatic transmission.)

> there is a distinct "jar" when the ICE drops off line or
> comes back on

Toyota's refinements from the classic to the 2004 actually introduced that "jar". It was less distinct before. But now the ICE off & on happens sooner. I personally like the change. It now makes merging from a dead-stop something you can really impressive (or frighten!) your friends with and increases efficiency.

JOHN

stillwaiting3

I just got a call from my dealer today in Colorado Springs -- my Prius is arriving in their next allocation which comes in mid-December. I paid MSRP with no additional handling fees or costs; Colorado gives a tax credit on low emission cars. On the 2003, it was about $3K. The 2004 will also qualify, but they have not announced the credit amount for it yet as each model has a different credit based on the price differential as compared to non-hybrid cars in the same class. I will also get an extra tax credit from the state because I'm retiring a car over 10 years old (1990 Accord with 237,000 miles). The stipulation is that I sell it to salvage or to an out of state buyer (they don't car if old cars pollute other states). The Fed deduction and Colorado credit take a nice bite out of that price.

emptyseer

The energy bill will provide a tax credit, not a deduction, of approximately $2000 for the 2004 Prius effective for vehicles purchased after the date of enactment, the date that the President signs the bill. It is making my wait easier. You cannot take both the deduction and the credit. The credit lasts until they sell 80,000 of them. Too bad there is such other evil in the Energy Bill.

carbuyer2004

The bill is set forth in the 800+ page Conference Report which can be read at www.house.gov/rules/text_6cr.pdf. The section on vehicle tax credits starts at page 583. Good luck figuring this out. I hope emptyseer is right.

ateixeira

Is that once only, or per year? If you could spread the payments out over 6 years, and the deduction is valid every year, you could get $4,800 back.

OK, any lawyers around to read that doc?

-juice

emptyseer

Secton 1318(d) of the Bill grants the credit for a hybrid vehicle "placed in service by the taxpayer during the taxable year." So the credit is only a one time thing, the year you get the car.

ateixeira

Thanks. Oh well, too bad.

-juice

blueguydotcom

If it's a one time tax credit, then this is a WORSE deal than the current set up with the miniscule deductions that disappear by 2006.

I'll wait it out to see what the law officially states. One time tax credit...sheesh, that's pretty useless. Nothing more than a rebate. How will that encourage people to go green?

wowser1

PRIUS: MOTORTREND CAR OF THE YEAR!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_031120_coy/

missmyaudi

I was able to negotiate $200 off MSRP AND get the floor mats/cargo net/first aid kit thrown in for free. I purchsed it at IRA Toyota in Danvers, MA.

BTW, I went from an Audi A6 to the new Prius and do not regret my decision. Sure I miss the handling, quattro, and superior ride, but I honestly feel like I didn't give up much by purchasing the Prius. It's a great car.

wco81

How do deductions work as more than a one year thing?

How does it compare with a one-time tax credit?

Sounds like the tax credits will be a higher amount of tax savings for one year but maybe the multiple-year deductions end up being more?

Also, is HOV the same as the commuter lanes on most state and interstate freeways and expressways in California?

emptyseer

Current law--IRC section 179A--allows a deduction only "for the taxable year in which such property is placed in service" So it is only a one time deduction. For 2003 the amount of the deduction is $2000. The amount goes down to $1500 for 2004, $1000 for 2006, etc. Multiply the $2000 by your combined federal and state tax rate and you will determine your savings.

The exemption would be for approximately $2000 for the year the car is put into use. That $2000 is subtracted directly from your federal tax liability. The Energy Bill may be in trouble on the MTBE liability issue and the many other outrageous give aways salted thoughout the bill.

blueguydotcom

If the tax credit isn't yearly, then I can't see putting up with a Prius. Well back to looking at gas guzzling, more entertaining V6 equipped cars then. Oh well...

finestack

You also have to realize how much mainstream press MTCOY receives, and how very little the everyday car consumer knows (or cares) about rating systems. That little gold caliper is going to mean a whole lot more interest, demand, and ultimately sales for our favorite mid-sized hybrid.

Case in point:
For the past month, my friends and family out here in the heartland (where a Ford Ranger is considered the smallest economy vehicle acceptable at the Sonic drive thru) thought I was certifiably insane for ordering a "Japanese toy car you have to plug in." Guess what - they ALL read MT cover-to-cover.

So today I have been freed from the social asylum and tomorrow will be welcomed back into the 4H club. And when my Millenium Silver Prius arrives in early January, every run-of-the-mill six-cylinder owner on the block is going to ask to borrow my smart entry fob and take a spin.

emptyseer

Their testing gotta give you a certain degree of confidence in the technology.

ateixeira

While it's not the most merit-based award in the industry (Caprice won too), it is the most important in marketing terms. That spells great news for media exposure.

-juice

backy

I placed my order today for a Prius with package 3, in either red, blue, or green. Got $500 off MSRP. The dealer didn't even require a deposit; he took my credit card number but won't run it. I can cancel the order for any reason, at any time. I for one will be glad to put up with my Prius when it comes in this spring. It will be even better if the tax credit passes, but even if it doesn't I'll be saving big bucks (and lots of gas) over the V6-powered minivan that was my other choice. It will be hard to wait 5-6 months but I don't mind the wait since the lease isn't up on my current van until May.

BTW, the fleet manager I dealt with told me that he expects Prius production to dip a bit early next year as Toyota ramps up production of the Lexus RX hybrid. With that, the possible tax credit, and the positive press from MT's COTY, I'm glad I got my order in now.

footie

The Lexus RX is now made in Canada, while the Prius is in Japan.

The likelihood that they share a power plant is low, since the Prius is approximately 1000 pounds lighter than the RX.

I think the fleet guy was making this up.

Did he explain why the Prius would dip?