Toyota Prius

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  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___I do believe Midnight Cowboy went well over the line in this thread a few posts ago …

    ___Prius4meus, as for waste and such, I think I can do without regenerative braking, placing a FOB into a slot and pushing a button somewhere else (unless you purchased the Smart Start + package for an extra $1K +?), and let the engine run at the light to save between $5,500 and $11,000 + tax on that amount in hard earned cash to own a Corolla … Did I forget to mention I received 43.5 mpg average with an 03 Corolla LE w/Auto over the last 2 months? Did you also know the 04 Prius will get taken to the wood shed in a 0 to 60 mph jaunt by even the slowest Toyota available here in the states? Namely the Toyota Echo with Auto?

    ___The next time your 04 Prius’ engine shuts off at the light, I can only hope it makes you feel better given the extra $6,000 to $12,000 you spent to procure your own over and above a lowly yet relatively well equipped 04 Corolla LE … If the sun is shining at said light and you just happen to be stopped next to a Corolla, you might just see the Corolla owner receiving a well deserved sun tan with a particular option available to him/her while you are thinking about your Prius’ regenerative breaking ;-)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    This is my first post. I have enjoyed reading your msgs and info tremendously over the last few months.

    There was discussion going on here a couple of days ago about low MPG being experienced by the new owners. This articles has a toyota person saying that mileage suffers during the first 5 minutes of a cold start due the low emissions curbing technology. Also that 42 mpg was normal.
    http://www.msnbc.com/news/988603.asp?cp1=1

    So that certainly seems to mean that if your commute is less than, say 15 minutes, your better off buying a corolla? Most of my trips are 5-20 minutes. I would be an extremely disappointed treehugger if I bought this car and got only 42 mpg or less. That's about as much as a civic hx. Since many 'city' drivers don't drive for a long time they'd be in the same boat - a far cry from the 60 mpg they would have expected from the EPA numbers.

    Wayne, regarding your latest post, in which you are only trying to
    irritate folks, I don't see how this qualifies as "constructive critcism" or anything else laid on in the rules just recently mentioned.
    As a matter of fact I am currently shopping around and the corolla is in competition with the prius and civic. I could afford 3 times the car price of these cars and dont give a hoot about 0-60 time or sunroof (my current Integra's sunroof is always closed to both sun and air). Hey I like the corolla and may buy it but the neato factor of the prius is worth a lot of money to me - and others apparently.

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
  • prius4meusprius4meus Member Posts: 22
    Here's an attempt to pull Wayne back to the "constructive" realm:

    Sometime with the past few weeks you posted some data with your MPG results. A cannot find this post now and would like you to reference it or repost the relevant data. I am most interested in the steps you take to boost your MPG well above the rated levels. Of course, we all know that the ratings are not upper limits and that actual MPG is dependent upon a multitude of factors. Since I can't travel downhill BOTH ways to work, please reiterate some of the things you were able to do to tweak your MPG (do I recall something about tire pressure and synthetic oil?)

    Here are my results and thought on the Prius' fuel efficiency thus far. From reading prior posts, I think that all statements of fuel efficiency should probably be prefaced by as much information as possible about the type of driving. My car has been on a highway twice for about 10 miles. I drive in Cleveland, Ohio. My commute is stop and go traffic, 5 miles in length, with a theoretical speed limit of 35 MPH (rarely attained). Non-work related driving generally consists of longer drives with fewer stops at slightly higher speeds.

    Now, by the display, I have averaged 48.7 MPG since owning the car. By tank filling I have averaged 48.1 MPG (cannot make much of this yet as I have only filled twice). By display, I averaged 58 mpg for the first 80 miles of the second tank during a single day "country" drive. Thus, it is already very apparent that my mpg results are completely dependent upon my routes (lenghts/conditions etc). Moreover, my 99 Corolla (manual) averaged 26 mpg on the 5 mile commute for the two months prior to the arrival of my Prius. (This same corolla get 35-40 mpg, as expected, on the highway). Hybrid systems are not the only vehicles which are less fuel efficient at short drives. So, from where I stand, with MY commute, I am getting 80% of the predicted MPG with the Prius (48/60) and 84% of the predicted MPG with my Corolla (26/31). Since I'm not changing where I work or live, I'm pretty happy with that.

    My MPG data are taken from the following site:
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

    As for my reasons for buying the Prius as opposed to the corolla, which we also considered:

    1) I have 2 kids and wanted a bit more room than the corolla. Specifically, since my wife and I take turns in the back seat on long drives the 51.6 inch rear hip room (as opposed to 46.2) makes all the difference in the world! The hatch is also convenient for occasional hauls from the Depot. Larger cars were out of the question for us for the reasons listed below.
    2) The better MPG
    3) The lower estimated annual greenhouse gas emissions (3.5 tons vs 5.9 tons)
    4) Availability of several "safety" features: VSC, side AND curtain airbage, ABS (Standard) etc.

    I love this car and remain unapologetic about my choice!

    About to double my mileage in the next 3 days with the first real highway driving.

    Happy Thanksgiving!
  • petlpetl Member Posts: 610
    Difficult question to answer. You sure are getting a lot technology for the money (no other manufacturer comes close). Keep in mind that the Prius is still a pioneer vehicle (it must be pretty good, Nissan will be using Toyota's system in their vehicles). I saw a program last week on the Speed channel. Detroit executives and car magazine editors did not seem sold on Toyota's hybrid system. The consensus was that the American car buyer still prefers bigger and more powerful, gas guzzling vehicles (probably right). Also, the price of gas is fairly stable and there is no gas shortage (there appeared to be no vision). Ironically Motor Trend named it Car of the Year.

    I guess it depends on what your needs are (driving patterns, etc.) and the money you wish or have to spend. Message #1392 by Priusformeus gives good reasons why anyone should purchase a Prius.

    Good luck with your decision.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    As I sit there with the Prius engine off I often tend to think of the nice clean, clear, fully oxygenated air my grandchildren will be breathing.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Veggieburger, the only reason I added my comments about the 04 Prius was that Prius4meus added his own including the words passe, primitive, and inexcusably wasteful towards EVERYONE else’s automobile … I don’t think that was being constructive in the least but it was a slam against everyone that drives something else. I then pointed out the fine points just in case he had forgotten how much it cost for some of the Prius’ less then normal ergonomics and features. After all, there are many that paid $12,000 + or more for their 04 Prius over and above what I paid for a relatively well equipped 03 Corolla (no leather or sunroof :-( ) yet will achieve a maximum 20 - 25% increase in fuel economy and the same maximum 20 - 25% decrease in Greenhouse gas production vs. an 03 or 04 Corolla. Someone posted in the Hybrid’s - Are they up to the Chore thread that the production of an automobile consumes more fuel then will ever be used or saved in the cars driving lifetime but I don’t know if that is true or not? At least automobiles don’t simply die on the vine but go to good use with second, third, and even fourth owners in some cases before they are simply scrap. You also mentioned affordability … If you have ever driven a loaded up Camry XLE, you will see why some may decide that is the better value. As much as $3,000 less expensive when loaded with far more goodies then the Loaded Prius currently has and is a vehicle that can accelerate in under 10 seconds w/ auto w/ a 4. What anyone wants in terms of acceleration is their business as I wish I had the 76 Hp Prius engine in my Corolla (0 to 60 mph in 13 to 14 seconds? w/ 52 + on the hwy) without the electrics and a savings of maybe another $500 or $1,000 vs. what I paid back in my pocket. I just wanted to make sure that someone berating the rest of us non-Prius owners that there is a sacrifice for the gee whiz technology that wasn’t mentioned is all. Since you are shopping the Corolla, is the Prius worth an extra $6,000 to $12,000 to you? If it’s just short trips and you don’t place a lot of miles on the car/year, make sure you try out a Camry LE for around $18K or even a loaded up 4 XLE for ~ $23K. Ride comfort and all the amenities are all there that may just make you change your mind.

    ___In regards to the 04 Prius’ mileage, I believe it still has a shot at EPA estimates on the hwy in particular although the EPA, other experts, and even Toyota reps are now trying to reduce Prius owner’s real world expectations. I will give the 04 Prius the benefit of the doubt because after all, I don’t think there is an 04 Prius w/ 10 to 20,000 miles on it and driving in warmer weather. 51 on the hwy could be doable given it does have a more efficient but same base 1.5 L motor (76 vs. 108 HP at maximum’s) of the Toyota Echo and its Cd is lower. The taller, slimmer, and ungainly looking Echo may even have more frontal area which is the second but just as important part of and force/drag equation. In other words, if the Echo can achieve 43 on the hwy w/ a stick, the Prius could possibly receive 51 on the hwy given the more efficient motor, lower drag/smaller frontal area, and quite possibly an even more efficient transmission (although we are speaking of diminishing returns in regards to the CVT vs. stick here).

    ___Prius4meus, I believe I posted my own real world mpg usage in the “Up to the Chore” thread a few pages back. The maximizing mpg tips I use came from or were actually taught to me by the game gauge in our 03 Acura MDX as well as reading how the Honda Insighter’s maximize that particular driving condition in their daily uses. No A/C when it’s below 72, no Defrost unless it’s needed, tire pressures up to maximum or beyond if you can take the harsher ride, feather the accelerator as you climb hills. In other words, drive with a constant load mentality, NOT a constant speed as cruise sets you up for. The same can be said down the other side. Accelerate with constant load, while increasing speed. In traffic keep a distance so as to buffer you from using the brakes ever but stay close enough to use the draft of whatever is in front of you since it’s free. If you are on the open road, you can “surf” the big rigs. This is not a strict draft from behind but hang along the sides but a bit behind either the cab (a bit dangerous) or hang off the back of the trailer (not dangerous at all) and enjoy the push of air around the truck and its trailer. In the case of a 5 speed Insight, short shift (usually 1st, 2nd, and then 5th) with almost full accelerator but don’t let the rpm’s rise above 2 to 3,000 RPM when doing so. It has a unique lean burn mode that is essential to maximizing hwy mpg. I have read of Prius owners using a similar technique for maximizing hwy mpg in that they attempt to get up to hwy speeds quickly and feather the accelerator w/ load and not speed. I can’t tell you if it works with the Prius or not since I don’t own one but it does with the 5 speed Insight. Keeping your speed down is the number one important tip. I try and drive 55 to 60 in the 55 zones and 60 – 63 in the 65 zones though the Chicago area. It makes the trip a bit longer but the mileage easily shows. I guess that is my part to save the environment … There are a few other minor tips but these are the biggies.

    ___Finally although a bit OT, if everyone were worried about the environment, all of us would have been driving the 5 speed Insight for our daily commuter (2 passenger/lowest green house gas emissions of any automobile available here in the States) and/or a CVT based Insight for its SULEV rating as far back as 4 years ago. In the SUV realm, the 03/04 Acura MDX leads the pack by a very good margin with the lowest HC/NOx output of any mid-size/large SUV and even beats most ULEV based compact and midsize sedans. That and the fact I received an all time high of 32.8 mpg out if it in one long stretch of hwy on our trip through the Rockies and into Arizona this summer which reduces CO2 directly into the Honda Accord/Toyota Camry realm for that particular stretch anyway. In the case of trucks, the std. Ford F150 is a ULEV based design in case it was not known. In the Compact P/U’s realm, the 03/04 Ranger with the 2.3 L 4 and a stick is the lead according to Greencars.com although it is only rated a LEV. I own one for my side Landscape business. If you want to go green, follow through all the way. I am driving a ULEV-II (MDX), a ULEV (Corolla), and LEV (Ranger P/U) based vehicles myself and hopefully am doing my part with maximizing mileage thus lowering even further the CO2 and HC/NOx emission outputs of the vehicles I drive every day.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • bkswardbksward Member Posts: 93
    The consensus was that the American car buyer still prefers bigger and more powerful, gas guzzling vehicles (probably right). Also, the price of gas is fairly stable and there is no gas shortage (there appeared to be no vision).

    I think that the automakers are right in their interpretation of the wants of the typical consumer. While you hear a lot on the news about "high gas prices" and they do hurt, gas is still pretty cheap.

    Based on inflation, $2.00/gallon gasoline in 1980 would have only been about $0.84/gallon. With the average car buyer only looking at a 3-4 year horizon the average consumer doesn't see an overwhelming need to get maximum fuel economy yet.

    Despite surveys that show most people care about fuel economy, when push comes to shove, they'll choose an Accord V6 over the 4 cylider model, despite the adequate power and lower price of the 4.

    I don't agree with the vision of Detroit, but then they make very few cars that are of any interest to me. They have been about a generation and a half behind most of the foreign makers for the last 20-30 years. They will be once again with hybrids... It won't bite them though for another 10 years when hybrids become a significant proportion of new car sales.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's an excellent reminder that I think many people are drawn to the Prius for reasons that are difficult to quantify in dollars or in 0-60 times. It's certainly possible to buy a roomy compact or even mid-sized regular car for less than a Prius, and even though the Prius should return better fuel economy over its lifetime than regular cars (VW diesels not included), one could argue that for some driving patterns, the difference in fuel economy isn't that great, certainly not big enough to offset the difference in purchase price.

    For me, it's an easy decision both quantitatively and qualitatively. If I don't get a Prius, I will replace my current 15-mpg-in-the-city minivan with another 15-mpg-in-the-city minivan (well maybe 16 or 17). Most driving will be in-city driving. The minivan would cost at least as much as the Prius, probably a little more. I figure my fuel savings at 400 gallons per year, or at $1.50 a gallon about $6000 over the life of the car. Qualitatively, I do get a good feeling knowing that the car emits less pollution than almost any other car on the road, that I'll be burning much less (imported) gas, that I don't have a vehicle that is bigger than I need, that it's a safe and comfortable vehicle for my family, and that all the gizmos will be fun to play with for quite awhile. Also it's fun knowing that my car won't look like all the millions of minivans that are on the road. Whenever I've mentioned to anyone that I've ordered a Prius (and they know what a hybrid car is), their face lights up and they ask me to let me know how I like it. I think there's something about the Prius and hybrids in general that many people appreciate. But they're not for everyone; everyone has his/her own needs and priorities.
  • bkswardbksward Member Posts: 93
    Out of curiosity:

    What is the range of the smart entry, and does it unlock just the driver's door?

    If I'm loading groceries into the hatch will the door be unlocked for my passenger?

    Does the car shut off if I hop out to put something in a mailbox so that I have to hit start again?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    On last night's test drive I did a couple of runs on a freeway, at 65 mph (limit), over mostly level terrain or very gentle hills. The mpg meter was consistently between 60-65 mpg over those stretches. I was actually shocked by that, because the EPA highway rating is much less and the gas engine was doing all the work. That's not a comprehensive test, but it does lead me to believe that the Prius could do very well as a highway cruiser, at least over level terrain. Now on hills, you'd suffer going up, but going down the mpg would be off the scale (it only goes to 99), so it would average out somewhat.

    Overall on the test drive, the mpg was about 42. The car had 1250 miles on it. The engine was cold when we started out. The temp was about 25 F, it was snowing, combination of city streets and some freeway stints, and I floored the pedal a lot to see what it would do. What it did is interesting. It seems to get up to speed fine, about as well as my Grand Caravan with a 3.8L V6, but the sensation is much different than on a typical car because of the CVT--it's just one smooth flow of power. I could see how some people would think that would detract from the driving experience, but for the car's intended use in my family (my wife's daily driver) I don't think it's any problem.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Bksward:

    ___I believe Detroit is simply trying to survive with the meager profits left in the automobile industry today? They offer what American’s want even though they include unusually low mileage and relatively higher polluting SUV’s but as someone mentioned above, America wants these vehicles irregardless of the dependence on foreign oil, smog in our major cities, or even more importantly, the Greenhouse gas production for some reason? When shopping for a new automobile to replace the 92 Privia w/ > 170,000 miles on it, it went from a 4 cylinder (I would not budge on the 4 cylinder) Camry LE to a loaded Camry XLE to a loaded RAV4, to an 04 Sienna (but we would have had to wait), to a loaded Lexus RX300 to a Base Acura MDX to a loaded Acura MDX … She won but at least I received decent mileage and the best in class ULEV-II emission rating.

    ___Backy, the 04 Sienna is not only a very large mini-van, it receives 27 mpg on the hwy in 2WD trim. I have read of some receiving closer to 28/29 on the hwy meaning it’s an easy 30 +’er if you are careful with your driving habits. It’s also ULEV if that makes any difference. And in regards to the Prius, those type of mileage numbers leave me great hope for the future of it … Now if it wasn’t so darned expensive :(

    ___As for the Prius factor, I wholeheartedly agree in that it will help push the US towards a less oil dependant and cleaner society. I am interested in purchasing a used Honda Insight 5 speed for myself given my monster 1 or 2 person commute and the Hybrid’s are the first practical high mileage automobiles offered to any of us that have low emissions, high mileage, and are relatively practical.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I like the Sienna but I'm not going there for several reasons, including: 1) size--I have a Grand Caravan now, the Sienna is at least as big, maybe a bit bigger, and it's proven to be unwieldy for my wife to drive around town so I want a smaller vehicle this time; the MPV is my top choice in a minivan for mostly that reason; 2) price--even a base Sienna LE would run about $25k and would not match the equipment I can get on the Prius for $21k. Also, note that most of the driving would be in the city, not highway. So while the 27 mpg rating of the Sienna is a good one, for a big minivan, it won't help me much based on my (my wife's) driving pattern. My GCS is rated 17 city and 24 highway, and I can easily achieve 25+ mpg on the highway but it struggles to get over 15 mpg overall with all the short trips we do. From what I know about the Prius, I think it will do very well in that kind of driving, at least triple the mpg of the van.
  • gscheil1gscheil1 Member Posts: 72
    I am going on my second hiway trip tomorrow of about 250 miles. The first time, I used cruise control in 70 mile zone but don't recall exactly what the mpg were. Tomorrow, I'll try the same trip without cruise control and will remember the mpg. Last nite we were out, had the headlights on and when stopped at a restaurant, the lights turned off. When I came back out and started the car, the lights came on. Do you think that's what they call "auto on"? It certainly works that way at night but don't think they will turn on by themselves when moving from dusk to night-time like in my Avalon. I am really watching the dome light for awhile to make sure the switch sensor doesn't stick again. I will also check again for the drl's. Have you had any experience on the highway with manual vs cruise control?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I firmly believe that most of us would be perfectly pleased with an RX hybrid that used the HL 4 cylinder and got performance numbers equal to today's V6.

    Yet here is Lexus touting V8 performance from a V6 hybrid.

    Sorta like Porsche and their over-powered and over-weight Cayenne, out of touch.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think Prius came first because Toyota was able to take first prize in the EPA mileage derby. That is huge for publicity, it gets mentioned quite often. Prius is small, light, and has decent pep even with a small engine. Camry wouldn't win the EPA derby, nor would it be as quick with the same powertrain.

    Once hybrids gain popular acceptance, as seems to be the case now, we'll see more mainstream, bigger cars get it.

    -juice
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    gscheil1 - On the lights, they worked for you as they did for me last night. I asked the sales rep if there was any "auto on" behavior based on darkness, he said no, they just go on and off automatically when you leave the light switch "on" and turn the car on and off. (This is on a Package 3 car mind you.) It took me awhile to adjust to this feature on my '01 Elantra (I was always used to a buzzer telling me to turn my lights off), but now that I'm used to it I like it. As for experience with manual vs. cruise control, my test drives have all been on city highways so I never engaged the cruise.

    Willard - I agree with you, but some people are looking for faster cars than you and I am--witness the upsurge in power of cars lately--even "family" sedans with 250+ hp engines, capable of 0-60 in 7 seconds. Frankly I don't need or want that kind of power in a car, especially not with a 15 year old son who will probably get his learner's permit tomorrow. But the public demands it, so Toyota will build it.

    Juice - I think you've hit on something here. Use a small car as a HSD proving ground, get lots of press because of the high mpg numbers (and low emissions), and then steer production towards the larger, more profitable vehicles. Suppose Toyota is successful with this strategy and within 2-3 years has equipped most of their lineup with HSD systems that not only perform well but have great fuel economy, without a big bump in price over regular cars. How will the other automakers compete with that?? They could license Toyota's technology, as Nissan is doing, but that just pours more cash into Toyota's pockets.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gscheil1:

    ___Instead of just watching the instantaneous readout (game gauge), let it teach you to HOW to drive the Prius to maximize its hwy mileage. Cruise is usually a good thing to use with an all-electronic throttle (ala 03/04 MDX and 04 Prius) but use your Acc and Dec buttons when climbing and descending hills and overpasses so as to keep load and fuel use as close to minimal as possible. This technique, your drafting techniques, your tire pressures, and your actual speed are the 4 real keys to maximizing hwy mileage. A Mobil1 synthetic change out is another + to increasing mileage but you are probably not ready for that until after the Prius’ break in period.

    ___I do not know what the instantaneous readouts for fuel economy/use look like in an 04 Prius but if its anything like the 01 – 04 MDX or 00 – 04 Insight, you can watch the actual miles/gallon or fuel used at any given instant with a just glance and adjust your driving habits accordingly to maximize that graph in real time. Again, don’t use your speedometer to maximize fuel economy but use your game gauge to tell you when and how to accelerate, decelerate, and cruise. Drive off the instantaneous via engine load/fuel use and not speed like you have probably been trained over countless tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of miles. If you stay in the right hand lane, it won’t take but a hundred or two miles and you will begin to feel the engines load change and know what to do instinctively vs. watching the instantaneous readout. The game gauge watch can become quite addictive so be careful and keep you and your family safe first and foremost. A quick glance every few seconds is all you should need. Have you wife do the watching and let her tell you what to do if you can get her to cooperate for the first few hundred miles if you find yourself a bit more pre-occupied then you should when hauling down the road at 60 + mph … Make sure you are aware of what is behind you as well. Let the flying 18 wheelers pass you in their normal right lane by scooting out of their way. For those 18 wheelers that are pacing you, get behind them and pace them instead. Many of the good 18 wheeler drivers running near max loads slow down while ascending and speed up as they are descending because they have no choice. They can be a good teacher if you just let them. Still remember that your family’s safety is your number 1 priority, not maximizing the 04 Prius’ fuel economy. Even if you don’t get it right at first, it will become instinctive to you after a few hundred hours behind the wheel if you are careful. Again, let the Prius teach you to drive instead of the other way around.

    ___I say all of the above without ever having driven an 04 Prius. The reason I know it will work for many of you is because of my own maximums. I achieved a record 32.8 mpg in our 03 Acura MDX in one stretch on a cross country trip while it is only EPA rated for 23 mpg hwy. I have also received a maximum 45.97 mpg in an 03 Toyota Corolla LE w/ Auto with an EPA hwy estimate of just 38 mpg. The Hybrid driving Honda Insighter’s use similar techniques listed above to maximize their fuel economy and many have achieved 90 + mpg over 1000 mile cross country trips without a single fuel stop and those particular Hybrid’s only have 10.6 gallon tanks!

    ___There are three fold + reasons to maximize fuel economy besides the fuel costs themselves. The range between fill ups is larger thus you won’t be spending as much time going to the station. The Emissions of the car while maximizing fuel economy are decreased. Remember fuel economy is directly related to the amount of CO2 you release into the atmosphere. A given gallon of fuel contains a given amount of CO2. You burn it, it gets released. The third item is the Prius’ longevity. Running a car at minimal load will increase the lifespan of every component on the vehicle (as long as it’s not lugged). This payback isn’t immediate but having a battery cost in the $4 to $5,000 range is something you may want to consider not replacing if you maximize the Prius’ capabilities ASAP instead of after so many cycles of that precious component.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Much to my dismay, I just filled up after 302 miles and took 5.9 gallons to the click. I am LOVING my Silver BC with all the goodies you just can't get in a Corolla. Cost was NOT an option and did not figure into the equation when I purchased this vehicle. I wanted to make a statement that I am willing to embrace this new technology which is the precursor for all future automobiles. I can't make that statement buying a Corolla. I can't get NAV/Bluetooth/VSC/Side curtains in a Corolla either. I wish people would STOP equating the two. They aren't even in the same league. I just think there are participants on this forum that have Prius envy but can't justify the price.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Djasonw:

    ___As for Prius envy, no. What I would like is the Prius’ HSD in a Corolla LE for $17,000 or less and not $20,500 to $26,000 + tax outlay as you have done.

    ___Making a statement is more about emotion then practicality but if that is what you want, I am glad you have the car to do it with. I am more then happy to hear of your mileage as this is a question that has been my own for quite some time now. That hwy mileage you are receiving is so important as to make me want the HSD in any less expensive automobile right now!

    ___Since you probably know very little about GPS, do you know what month/year your Navtech based maps are from? I know my Mapopolis Navtech based maps and POI’s are from the May of 03 release. Most automobile manufactures use or have used ancient to even 1 year old maps because of the license they receive from Alpine/Pioneer. In other words, you are probably using older Navtech maps and you don’t even know it … The next time you go into your local Wal-Mart, why don’t you ask for a Road Atlas from 2000, 2001, or 2002. Watch the sales assistant give you an odd look like why would you want that? Then they will ask why would we carry such outdated maps? Then 3, who would carry such an ancient atlas anyway? I am also wondering if the 04 Prius’ NAVI uses a Gyro based setup for the times it loses the birds as the higher end Lux NAVI equipped automobiles use? This is one item a Hand held based NAVI unit truly lacks.

    ___As for VSC, if Toyota would have offered it, I would have purchased it. They didn’t so I couldn’t. Remember the Cadillac Cimarron?

    ___And for being in the same league, you must have missed the part that if the Prius were a sedan, it would be a compact just like its sibling the Corolla. Do you also know the Hatchback Corolla’s are larger then the Prius? Did you also know it outperforms the Prius from 0 to 60 mph by quite a margin? Many of the Prius’ suspension and braking components appear to be shared with the Corolla and Echo by all appearances. I am still awaiting the full tests in C&D as well as the other publications for a side by side myself. Did you also know a Corolla costs $5 to 12,000 less? You could have also purchased a Camry XLE that is larger, quieter, more comfortable, and out performs the Prius in any number of performance attributes given its superior suspension and braking build as well as being more luxurious off the show room floor. All for much less money as well …

    ___I love the HSD in the 04 Prius for all the right reasons but the cost of the 04 Prius stripped + the option package pricing is ridiculous. You will more then likely pay for your purchase even harder at trade in time although you are probably not concerned with that at this point in time …
             
    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___I have a few questions for the savvy 04 Prius owners …

    ___Does the 04 Prius have DRL’s (Day time running lights)? I keep seeing posts about auto lights and I am a little confused given DRL’s should be a safer option and are mandatory for our neighbors to the north from my understanding.

    ___Does the 04 Prius have a variable assist steering feel built into the electric power steering assist?

    ___Does the 04 Prius include Tinted glass?

    ___Does the 04 Prius include a Tach or outside temperature readout? Even with the higher level option packages? I believe the tachometer issue has been discussed in the past so maybe the outside temp readout question would suffice?

    ___Thanks in advance

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I love the HSD in the 04 Prius for all the right reasons
    > but the cost of the 04 Prius stripped + the option package
    > pricing is ridiculous.

    Countless times now we have pointed out that there is NO SUCH THING as a stripped Prius. The base model is very well loaded. A comparable Corolla is only about $3,000 less. That is in no way "ridiculous".

     
    > I am a little confused given DRL’s should be a safer option
    > and are mandatory for our neighbors to the north from my
    > understanding

    DRL's don't really provide any benefit. They don't illuminate the back of the vehicle. And people in the north have vehicles covered with sand & salt filth most of the winter, shining the dimmed front lights through that filth makes them virtually impossible to see.

    Instead, just let the Prius turn your full headlights on & off for you everytime you start & stop it.

     
    > Does the 04 Prius have a variable assist steering feel
    > built into the electric power steering assist?

    Steering is tighter at faster speeds and looser at slower speeds.

     
    > Does the 04 Prius include Tinted glass?

    The glass is specially insulted, to help reduce the need for Heat & A/C. If you want darker windows, get that as an aftermarket option.

     
    > Does the 04 Prius include a Tach

    Since RPM is totally computer controlled, a tach is completely useless. The Multi-Display does indicate fuel-flow though, which is much more informative.

    The thing you have to keep in mind is that the engine will spin at speeds above 42 MPH, even though it isn't actually running. No gas is being consumed. A tach wouldn't tell you that.

    You can add an aftermarket tach if you really want one though.

     
    > outside temperature readout?

    That is a BASE MODEL feature you have obviously haven't accounted for. Yes, it is included on ALL models of Prius.

    Automatic Climate-Control is included in the BASE MODEL of Prius too. So you can set the internal comfort to a specific temperature. Another standard benefit you may not have been aware of.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___Thank you for answering my questions. I saw someone ask about an 04 Prius’ outside temp over at Prius Online yesterday. I already knew about the auto climate.

    ___A Comparable Corolla is at least $5,000 less given you can purchase a Corolla for $150.00 over just about any day of the week and includes DRL’s so you don’t turn anything on or off.

    ___As far as ridiculous, $5,000 + for a top of the line package on an economy car and why is the rear wiper on a hatchback not std.? For safety reasons alone, it should have been.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • phaworthphaworth Member Posts: 20
    I thought this was the thread for the Prius, not the Corolla. If you want to compare them please take it to the correct thread.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > $6,000 for a top of the line package on an economy car

    Countless times it has been stated that Toyota wants to increase their US market-share.

    By offering a NEW CATEGORY of vehicle, they will gain the attention of new consumers. So they created Prius, which clearly doesn't fit into the traditional "economy" category.

     
    > why is the rear wiper on a hatchback not std.?

    For some bizarre reason, those surveyed about upcoming Prius features last year requested it that way. So Toyota obliged by offering the choice.

    john
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Phaworth:

    ___I think I asked about the Prius’ features and someone mentioned the Corolla again?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • leeearleeear Member Posts: 5
    John,

    Don't waste your time in answering xcel' "questions". It is absolutely meaningless to compare Corolla with Prius. In my country, Corolla is one of the best economy car (a more decent name for cheap car). However, most people don't want to tell others they are driving Corolla because that tells something about that person.

    Prius is a niche car. I've been driving Volvo for 20 years, from 240 to 850 & S60. I am willing to switch to Prius for the simple reason of environmental protection. excel seems to be wise on pennies but he ignores the fact that we all have to pay for the price of pollution.

    To excel: please spare us & go back to your Corolla forum to sing your song.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Don't waste your time in answering xcel' "questions".

    No problemo.

     
    > Corolla is one of the best economy car

    One fact I would like to emphasize is how impressive of a vehicle Corolla is in the first place. Just 2 years ago, it was a very reliable, highly sought after (one of the best sellers of all time, in fact) small car. Today, the same is true but it is a much bigger car.

    Corolla stands above the crowd, without even factoring in the remarkable price. The competition simply can't compete well with it. So comparisons to one of the best, Corolla, isn't all that bad.

    The fact that Prius is a cut above really puts an impressive feather in Toyota's cap... which makes a certain Corolla owner here a little jealous!

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Leeear:

    ___You might just want to look over post number 1389 as to who mentioned the Corolla so please keep your personal comments to yourself. Maybe Prius4meus will tell you that your Volvo’s and my Acura are junk as well?

    ___John1701a, ahhh … not $17,000 AND your 01 Prius jealous ;-)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    I currently drive a '84 Corvette w/63,000 mi and I am considering selling it and getting an 04 Prius. I am thinking about the green issue, mpg and rising cost of gas (SF Bay Area avg $1.75/gal). I am new to this forum and would appreciate any/all inputs and advice. I am planning on a 3-4 wk trip next year around the country and am thinking about either getting a new Corvette, Camry or Prius. Please share with me your thoughts.
    Thanks in advance
    Rpgolfer
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That is quite a switch! They are distintly different driving experiences, and of course much different kinds of cars. My advice is, get as much time behind the wheel of the Prius as you can before you decide. Some dealers will rent them. Only then can you decide if you'll be happy driving a Prius everyday instead of a Corvette. If you don't like driving the car, it won't matter much how much room it has or how great the fuel economy is.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > $17,000

    That is NOT correct!

    Please, stop spreading false information.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If we must compare the Prius to the Corolla, I suggest it would be more to the point to compare the Prius to the hatchback version of the Corolla, the Matrix. The Prius is more comparable to the Matrix in size and utility than the Corolla. If you do that, you will find that the cost of ownership of both is very close. For example, Edmunds.com has the TCO over five years and 75,000 miles as $.36 per mile for the Matrix XR FWD Automatic (with ABS and cruise) and $.37 for the Prius Package 2. But if you make the feature content as close as possible (e.g., add alloys to the Matrix and substitute Pkg 1 for Pkg 2 on the Prius) and consider available discounts on the Prius (e.g., $500 off MSRP as available in my area, plus the effect of the $2000 or $1500 tax deduction), the TCO starts tilting in favor of the Prius. Plus as has been pointed out, the Prius is pretty loaded even in base form, with features like a traction control and automatic climate control that aren't available on the Matrix. The Matrix has some features not available on the Prius too, like 4WD, but those would also raise the TCO of Matrix compared to the Prius.
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    For a long highway trip, have any Prius owners experienced great results re comfort, mileage and sustained freeway speeds without difficulty? Of the above mentioned autos, which one does everyone think would be the best choice?
    Thanks
    RP Golfer
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    > That is NOT correct!

    ___Since you have been asked countless times as to what you received for your 01 Prius in trade and you would not divulge it … what was it? I have to assume you were offered 9 to 10K and paid tax on the extra $16,000, right? That places you somewhere around $17,000 + does it not? You speak of MSRP all the time but never about TIV of the previous gen Prius?

    ___Rpgolfer. I am not a Prius owner but drive a Corolla on the hwy daily. Although it’s a decent hwy cruiser, it does not compare to a Camry LE/XLE. The Prius and Corolla suspension and brake underpinnings are very similar whereas the Camry’s suspension and brake HW are a step above.

    ___When you go in for an 04 Prius test drive, make sure you spend some time in each on the freeway and country roads if you have them in your locale. That is about the only way you will be able to tell for yourself what feels more or less comfortable. It is the rougher roads where the Camry’s suspension really shines in comparison to a Torsion beam setup of the Echo, Corolla, and Prius if that helps …

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • little_pogilittle_pogi Member Posts: 149
    Should you happen to come across a posting by "exel", please skip over like I do. You will not learn anything positive about the Prius. He just keep pushing his Corolla agenga in a Prius forum. Responding to his comments will only encourage him to send more posting. It's coming to a point where it becomes annoying. Check out the Corolla tread, you will not find him posting anything on it.
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    Thank you xcel for your input. Anyone else have any advice? Kudos
  • revnkevinrevnkevin Member Posts: 9
    I have a 04 Prius with just over 1300 miles on it. I just went on a 341 mile trip, with some hills, and the cruise set at 62 mph, and it took 6.4 gal , my mpg was 53.2. I live in Ca. I think that is very good! John is 62 mph still the best mph to get the best mpg for the 04 Prius, I know you said it was the classic Prius Thanks!
  • leeearleeear Member Posts: 5
     >little pogi,

    I cannot agree with you more on the comment of "exel". English is not my mother tongue, but the phrase "pain in the neck" keep coming up whenever the "exel comment" appears. Don't know whether or not it is the right term but I think you know what I mean.

    >rpgolfer,

    Go from Corvette to Prius? Not a problem at all. In fact, you can replace XXX with any cars if you care for your country. I am also giving up my 92 Volvo 850 w 70,000 miles for a prius. Just sharing with you my personal experience. I have considered the following mid-size cars:

    MB230 & BM325: too expensive in my place due to progressive tax rate (1.5 times of US price). Also, terrible leg room in the rear seat for that price tag.

    Volvo S60: already got one, won't buy another one

    Camry: Great riding comfort but too popular. Don't want to mix with the crowd.

    Accord: Personal bias against Accord.

    As you know, my final decision is to go for the 2004 Car of the Year (Motor Trend). Reason for that, environment protection comes first, style second, then value for money.

    Best wishes in your search.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > is 62 mph still the best mph to get the
    > best mpg for the 04 Prius

    The engine & power-carriers are the same size. So I highly suspect that magic highway speed (which is 100 km/h, by the way) is likely to still be that. I haven't had the opportunity to confirm it yet, though.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Prius is more comparable to the Matrix in
    > size and utility than the Corolla.

    Prius outperforms Matrix in terms of acceleration. That's why it has been avoided by certain people in comparison discussions.

    JOHN
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    Revnkevin,
         Thanks for responding. What part of Calif are you located. I travel up and down the coast every year and am interested in travel conditions and types of roads driven (I-5/I-80, etc). Thanks
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Here are the 0 to 60 mph times of most of the vehicles mentioned over the last few pages …

    04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________10.5 seconds - Toyota?

    03 Toyota Echo w/ CVT:____________9.9 seconds - Motor Trend/Consumer Guide
    03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________9.8 seconds - Consumer Reports
    03 Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto:________9.5 seconds - Motor Trend
    03 Toyota Matrix XR 4x2 w/ Manual:___9.0 seconds - Edmunds/Auto Channel
    03 Toyota Camry XLE (V6) w/ Auto:___8.7 seconds - Road and Track
    03 Toyota Echo w/ Manual:__________8.5 seconds - Car Buying Strategies
    03 Toyota Camry SE w/ Manual:______8.3 seconds - Car & Driver
    03 Toyota Corolla w/ Manual:_________8.1 seconds - Motor Trend/Car & Driver
    03 Toyota Matrix XRS 4x2 w/ Manual:__7.3 seconds - Motor Trend

    03 Toyota Matrix XRS 4x2 w/ Auto:____Unknown?
    03 Toyota Matrix XR 4x2 w/ Auto:_____Unknown?

    ___I am sorry I could not find the XR and XRS w/ Auto’s 0 – 60 times.

    ___Little_Pogi, you and Leeear have added what? The next time you post, could you please add some content instead? I would also suggest you read through Corolla forums again. I have a few posts in them that you most certainly missed, that is a guarantee … If you really want to see content contribution, there is a little known (AcuraMDX) forum with an (.org) in its title. You can find my real automobile contributions over there.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • revnkevinrevnkevin Member Posts: 9
    The trip I took was from Fresno to Paso Robles ,then to Bradley and back to Fresno. I took Hwy 41 to Hwy 46, then to Hwy 101 and back. Hope this helps. revnkevin
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Here are the 0 to 60 mph times

    How exactly is that a constructive contribution?

    Also, your 2004 Prius data is incorrect.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Very soon, I need to make a run from the Twin Cities to northern Wisconsin with 3 other people. My 2004 is now beginning to show some signs of break-in and I've switched to synthetic oil. So, I'm rather curious what the results of my cold weather cruise will be.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A few comments:

    * The ECHO doesn't come with a CVT; it has a 4-speed automatic or 5-speed stick.
    * The Prius has been timed at 9.4 sec. 0-60 (see #1015). That was on a brand-new car, before break-in. That time is pretty competitive with the published times for the automatic ECHO, Corolla, Matrix XR (by extrapolation from the stick shift run) and Camry 4-banger.
    * Stick shifts will always be a little faster 0-60 than a slushbox, in the same car with the same engine, so IMO the most useful and fair comparisons to the Prius would be with automatic-equipped cars. Note that when the auto mags do comparos, they equip all the cars with either manual or automatic trannyies.
    * The post above left off the Corvette. For example, the Lingenfelter version of the Corvette did 0-60 in 2.0 seconds in June '02 per MT. BTW, this car cost $165,000 and had a 7.0L V8 with twin turbos and 802 horsepower. Yes, it sure dusted the Prius! In case anyone wondered.
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    While I dont agree with some or much of xcel has to say, or the way he says some things....
    I, and others, have specifically asked about the corolla because it fits _our_ criteria of what is an alternative to the Prius is. The corolla has about the MPG and features that I'm looking for and so does the _base model_ Prius. I'd prefer that the base base prius had less but they can't please everyone, right?

    I looked at the Matrix a while back. They certainly sacrificed MPG in favor of other things when they went from the corolla to the matrix - so from _my_ perspective the corolla is a closer alternative to the prius. Others have also asked about the corolla in the same way but I dont recall people asking about the matrix as alternative - if people do, that's just fine.

    The corvette, MB M55 AMG, volvo S60, 850 etc are apparently "alternatives" to Prius too <grin>

     No matter how much we may disagree on what a competing model is, what's most important is what each person thinks based on their own personalized criteria. If magazine X says Car A is better than Car B then it would be silly to go with that evaluation if your criteria are different than the magazine.

    So, if leeear wants to go along with MT then that his/her choice, hopefully after checking that MT's criteria closely matches his/hers.

    If it's 0-60 time that important to you then
    pay attention to those figures.

    If it's alloy wheels ...

    If it's MPG ...

    If it's TCO .... (thanks backy, sounds good to me)

    Point is we all have to decide for ourselves.
    MT magazine _had_ to choose the criteria for their evaluation.

    For me it's the corolla LE, Civic EX, Civic HX,
    or corolla. I was so sure I would be buying a 04 Prius until they started selling like hotcakes (I was thinking of buying it to "support" the hybrid car industry but that reason does not seem as valid now).

    From reports I have seen (dont remember where) the average income of a prius owner was _down_ to $80,000 from $100,000. For those less rich folks who also want to lessen our dependancy on foreign oil etc, it maybe a better decision to buy a corolla, civic etc and still further their ideals. If it is so (and i'm not saying it is) then it seems reasonable for it be asked in this forum - but I'm sure many do not agree.

    There a lot of different kinds of folks interested in the prius (eg rich, techies, treehuggers).
    "Can't we all just get along"? Agree to disagree on certain things? Try not to take things too seriously, try to refrain from personal attacks (somewhat impossible?).

    I enjoy all your posts - I hope you got something out of mine.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, we certainly have a wide variety of cars being cross-shopped amongst the posters here, don't we? So far I recall seeing compacts, midsized cars, luxury cars, SUVs, minivans, sports cars (Corvette, Mini Cooper etc.) here. This broad list of other vehicles that people are considering in addition to the Prius is intriguing to me. One thing we don't see much of here (but I think it's come up) is, comparing the Prius to other hybrids only. The fact that the Prius appeals to so many different kinds of buyers with different needs and priorities says something I think about the success of Toyota's strategy with the Prius.

    Have you noticed all the marketing effort Toyota is putting into the Prius, especially with print ads and billboards, but also the special test drive events? And this is for a car that has a 4-5 month waiting list in some areas! It's clear to me that the purpose of all this marketing money isn't just to sell Priuses, but to build up the Toyota hybrid franchise and get people drooling about the cousins of the Prius that are on the way. The recent print ads I've seen, and even the Prius brochure, make note of the other hybrids that are coming soon.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___Didn&#146;t you just say the 04 Prius out accelerates the Matrix in post #1432 on the page prior? As far as the 04 Prius data being incorrect, I remember before the 04 Prius was released seeing 0 to 60 times of ~ 10 seconds being posted. I noticed you said somewhere that yours can do a 0 to 60 mph jaunt in 9.9 seconds with tires inflated to maximum pressures. Lately however; I have seen 0 to 60 times being discussed in the 10.5 seconds range in the automotive press but I have not located a particular review that has done any validated performance testing to date. I am sure you have seen the same. I guess we shall see in next months Motor Trend when the 04 Prius&#146; performance data is finally available for all to read …

    ___Backy, Autosite provided the Echo&#146;s 0 - 60 times for the above and listed the engine as a 1.5 I-4/CVT. If it has a std. ECT Automatic, so be it. You can see the Echo&#146;s results and the CVT nomenclature as posted here: http://www.autosite.com/new/grabbag/perform/3297.asp in the Toyota Echo --> Performance section. I posted both the Auto&#146;s and Manual&#146;s of the vehicles that I could find and in the case of the above, all of them including the Automatics beat the 04 Prius&#146; 10.5 seconds from 0 to 60 so why should this be a surprise? No one will drive their Prius from a stand still to 60 in < 11 seconds anyway given it isn&#146;t needed?

    ___As for the Corvette, do you really think that should be in the list above? I don&#146;t think many would cross shop a $50,000 (or much more) Corvette and the Prius although I see at least one member that might trade his Vette in on an 04 Prius? I see this as a good thing myself ;-) Of all the vehicles I listed above, I see a good cross section of $10,000 &#150; $26,000 Toyota&#146;s vs. Toyota&#146;s. Nothing more and nothing less.

    ___Veggieburger, I enjoy the back and forth for the fun as you can tell. I do hate to see it get personal (I can be just as big a culprit in that regard as the next guy as I am sure you have seen) since forums are supposed to be informative as well as fun but most importantly, I learn something new every day. Someone in a Prius group even led me to a Star Rotor engine or some such thing. Who knows what we will be driving in 5 to 10 years but the HSD appears to be my next big ticket purchase in 3 or 4 years … If only they could have knocked the price down a bit :( Actually, I wouldn&#146;t mind being the first person to successfully receive 62 mpg on the hwy with a Prius myself as it certainly looks attainable given the EPA ratings and such ;-)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I love this forum because I can simply press my DOWN arrow past long posts that make no sense whatsover. Someone that LOVES Corollas should be posting on the Corolla board, but they chose not to. This person is definitely entitled to continue his rhetoric, as I simply ignore it. Most of my posts are at most a few paragraphs. If someone has the time to post a novel, well something is definitely wrong. They definitely do have Prius envy. Now to my post:
    I continue to evaluate the NAV system and have a great deal of praise for it. I own a portable NAV from Garmin called the Street Pilot III which pales in comparison. If you go off route with the Prius, it merely redraws your route in a matter of seconds. With the Garmin it will take over a minute (sometimes more depending on distance from destination) to re-calculate. I still carry a map with my because I always like to have a backup. I have NOT been disappointed yet with the functionality of the NAV.
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