Why don't dealers want to make money?

isellhondas · October 2003

How many "imported" parts were in that U.S. car!

dbgindy · October 2003

I never said you referred to imports as a "[non-permissible content removed]" car. Are you a little frazzled? :-)

fintail · October 2003

"Let's just stick to the facts and not imagine interesting statements and then call them quotes."

Says the person who posted a lameo urban legend as fact.

People buy imports because they often have a simply more pleasant ownership and driving experience, not to mention usually dramatically stronger residuals. Most people aren't corporate cowards or recipients of vast inheritances...they work for their money and want to get the most of it. If domestics could have equal automotive experiences across the board, more people would buy them.

steine13 · October 2003

Seeing as how Ford lost several hundred dollars per car last year, I'm helping them out by not buying another one and adding to the losses.

But hey, gimme a hug, I bought a PONTIAC today. Made in a US factory by union labor, and likely to be a trouble-free car for a long time. It's a Vibe, of course, so the engineering is 90% Toyota, but that's not my problem.

I live in a GM town and am quite sensitive to the "drive domestic" issues. But I'm also acutely aware of some of the junk the General puts out. By junk I don't mean that they won't run a long time, but rather that the designs are ugly, the interiors are worse, the panel gaps are all over the place, and there's cheap plastic parts everywhere that make me feel like washing my hands after I touch them. The seatback release in a Malibu comes to mind. It doesn't just FLEX in your hand, it SQUIRMS.

Car & Driver put it well a few years ago when they tested some abomination like the Monte Carlo: "Forget outsourcing, GM, farm out the design work!" These cars look like they were designed by three different committees. I mean, have these clowns ever even LOOKED at a BMW? I don't think it's any cheaper to build ugly cars, but maybe I'm wrong.

So from where I sit, I can either be a "jackass" and buy an import or an "idiot" and spend my money on a domestic. The older I get, the more comfortable I am being a jackass.
But hey, lets hear it for the GM/Toyota alliance that produced the Vibe!

And I'm not even American...
-Mathias

tblazer503 · November 2003

you do realize that the UAW produces imports such as Mitsubishi Eclipse(& Spyder), Galant, Endeavor, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Tacoma, and the Mazda 6, Tribute, right?(from UAW site)

Top 5 auto industry employers in Ohio: GM (26k), Delphi (19.9k), Ford (15.7k), Honda (14.75k), and DC (12.7k)

In 2001, Honda sold over 200,000 Accords, over 85% of them were made in Marysville, Ohio.(www.odod.state.oh.us)

Here's a pretty good article I found:

http://www.crbj.com/Articles/2003/09082003/Are%20All%20American%2- 0cars%20still%20made%20in%20America.htm

Goes into how the 2004 Saturn VUE with the HONDA 3.5L VTEC engine is "more American" than the 2003 Saturn VUE with a GM engine built in Europe. Also how the Toyota Avalon has a higher US content(built in Kentucky) than the Chrysler PT cruiser.

to keep in the topic, I think that dealers do want to make money.

bobst · November 2003

We bought a Ford in 1987. Based on our experience, we will never ever never never ever never ever never buy a Ford product again.

We will put in our wills that no money from our estate can ever be used to buy a Ford product.

ron_m · November 2003

bobst,

There's simply NO WAY that I can describe to you how much I agree with your assessment of Ford products. I bought a brand new, 1990 Ford Mustang and it was probably the worst new vehicle that I have ever owned. It's at least tied with my 2002 Chevrolet TrailBlazer--which I also purchased brand new. These two problematic vehicles were replaced with Nissan and Lexus products respectively, and both of the "[non-permissible content removed]" rides have been very, very, very reliable and dependable. And they look much better to boot! I've said it before and I'll say it again, all automakers produce a lemon now and then. But I think that your chances of purchasing a lemon are dramatically increased when you go with a vehicle that was engineered and manufactured by one of the Big 3!!! I think that the term 'Big 3' must have been coined because you'll end up having BIG problems with either:

1) Mechanicals
2) Electricals
3) Trim/Finish

GM=Sub-Junk
Daimler-Chrysler=Improved Junk
Ford=Junk

Just rearrange this order any way that you'd like--because the descriptions are subject to fit either of the BIG 3's products on any given day.

Ron M.

superchrgd · November 2003

This year I have a Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer. I had to force my wife to drive it. She too was hung up on imports. Now, she agrees that the vehicle is superior to her Honda Accord Exv6. Now, this is someone who doesn't even think of where cars or made or who made them.
I look at that as a testament to the great strides being made by our domestic manufacturers.

bobst · November 2003

Eddie Bauer sells a lot of camping related stuff.

Since your Ford Exploder will be breaking down a lot, leaving you sitting beside the road, you might as well enjoy the camping experience.

Ron-m, there are many others who feel like we do because of our experience. At least we learned our lesson.

masspector · November 2003

I owned a brand new 92 escort and 96 sable. I had the escort for 75K miles. The only problem it had was a bad voltage regulator at 20K, replaced under warranty. The sable had a bad altenator at 50K and an oil pan gasket leak at 60k. Although these were out of warranty, Ford paid 90% of the repair bills.

driftracer · November 2003

"Since your Ford Exploder will be breaking down a lot, leaving you sitting beside the road, you might as well enjoy the camping experience."

Awesome - kinda what I was thinking.

lemko · November 2003

"I mean, have these clowns ever even LOOKED at a BMW?"

By the looks of the new 5-Series, I'd say BMW has looked at Pontiac and copied an old Grand Am! I don't know what BMW was looking at when they designed the current 7-Series - perhaps a bad collision between a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue and a previous generation 7-Series?

mirth · November 2003

Just a side note on the UAW posts - the UAW doesn't promote buying "American" cars per se, they promote buying UAW built cars. If you go to their web site, that includes a few Toyotas. Food for thought.

rroyce10 · November 2003

...... **I don't know what BMW was looking at when they designed the current 7-Series - **

Let's hope the new "5" does a little better than the new 7, right now the dealers are up to their eyeballs in inventory and they have the resale value of boiled cabbage ...

Terry.

driftracer · November 2003

5 series tonight - black 545i...nice. They still offer the 6-speed manual like with the 540i?

masspector · November 2003

Not geting your post. Edmunds tmv for a 7 series in my neck of the woods is still msrp. if they were not selling well, wouldn't they be closer to invoice?

stickguy · November 2003

I think all models of the 5 come with a 6 speed (even the 525 and 530). I'm pretty sure the 545 still offers a stick also.

driftracer · November 2003

stickguy · November 2003

The SMG tranny also makes an appearance someplace I believe, in case you want the clutch without the pedal.

mirth · November 2003

The 6 series will have the SMG option. Haven't heard about the 5. Maybe the M5 will have it.

kyfdx · November 2003

All those Toyotas and Hondas are really just pieces of crap!! Everyone knows the japanese run the publishing industry and just spread lies about the quality of the good old U.S.of A. homegrown automobiles. Sorry..gotta go.. time for my meds....

gadgetcar · November 2003

My thread has certainly taken on a new life

To answer some questions that go WAY back...
Yes I was burned by a dealer before, now I take the necessary precautions.

I wash my car at least once a week. And usually photograph it once every 2 weeks or so, just because I enjoy doing it. Taking photos before an appointment takes me all of one minute and insures, should anything happen while my car is not in my custody, I can know for sure where to place the blame. I've spent a lot of money on my car, I love everything about it, and I don't know why anyone here would think I should be held responsible for a dealer that won't admit fault.

I can't think of a reason, any reason, why I'd buy an American car, and I'm as hardcore American as they come. I'd like to live through a 45MPH accident and I don't hold as much confidence in American made cars as I do German built when it comes to safety. I also feel as though the ride quality, responsiveness and braking in German cars is far superior to anything like priced coming from American manufacturers. No mushy brake pedal, no wandering steering wheel, and no excessive body roll....crumple zones that work miracles, rotating headrests, knee plates, unibody construction, GPS locator...manufacturers that have to take into account Autobahn speeds make me feel, as a driver, a lot more confident behind the wheel of my car. It doing what I tell it to when I tell it to, is an added bonus.

While I wouldn't buy an American car....ever, our trucks are pretty sweet!

What was this thread about? Oh yeah, Dealer's are evil, haha jk. I did notice a trend on http://www.dealerrater.com . Mercedes and Lexus have way better service then BMW, and Honda seems to be the most consistent. And independent is the way to go when you need work done outside of warranty for sure.

isellhondas · November 2003

Looks real good. In my state, it lists only a handful of the smaller dealers with no ratings whatever.

???

perna · November 2003

"Let me get this straight.... Your Father-in-Law, an attorney for the UAW said he would rather see someone buy a Honda.

Well, If one of the people he works for heard him say that he would lose his job.

Let's just stick to the facts and not imagine interesting statements and then call them quotes."

Yeah, I'm sure they would just can him on the spot. Oh wait, he wasn't saying it AT WORK, he said it while he was at dinner with HIS DAUGHTER and her husband (me).

Additionally, it's "United Auto Workers" *not* "United American Workers". The UAW produces plenty of vehicles sold under foreign nameplates. None of them are Honda, but you get my point.

But you're right, none of this happened because I love to imagine things and post them on Edmund's. My father-in-law actually works at your place of employment (the zoo?).

mark156 · December 2003

I've never owned a Ford product myself. But, most American cars made in the 80's were junk whether they were Fords, Chrysler's or GM. My '81 Oldsmobile was a nightmare.

My sister and her husband have had several Ford products and currently have a '98 Expedition and '99 Explorer with 90K miles and 70K miles respectively. These trucks have been great for them with virtually no trouble. My brother has a '99 Mercury Mountaineer with 50K miles and it has been a great truck too.

My Dad's two Buicks ('99 LeSabre, '91 Regal) have been really good and reliable except for the air on the Regal; never has worked well.

I think American cars are made better than they used to be and I have been considering a Cadillac Escalade ESV if I change to a larger SUV.

Mark156

thel · December 2003

even though it appears to have strayed away from the original topic.

I think this thread may have the whiniest (sp?) title I've ever seen. Boo friggity hoo! Why don't you mean dealers want to make money by selling me a car for thousands under TMV? That's it! I'm tellin' Mommy!

Sorry all, I just had to vent...I have a soon to be 3-year old daughter and I teach high school science...I know whining! >:{

wtd44 · August 2004

Is it not true that dealerships exist for the purpose of making money?

mh3 · August 2004

Well, I work for a dealership (an evil IMPORT delalership, at that) and I can assure you that we exist for the sole purpose of giving people on message boards something to talk about. It's in our mission statement. Making a little money is just a perk. Also, my dealership was not listed on the website, even though we are the highest volume dealer of our brand (which starts with "T" and ends with "A") in this state.

BTW, It's amusing to me the way super seems to believe that HIS anecdotal evidence outweighs everyone else's. Did you learn that tactic from the Flat Earth Society's web page?

LOL at the Eddie Bauer/camping comment. My oldest brother's experiences with Fords were enough to convince me (MORE anecdotal evidence!) to never spend a nickel on a Ford.

mirth · August 2004

...even your local, friendly, environmentally-conscious organic food market exists to make money. Get over it.

alfox · August 2004

So it's another consumer rating site - no pro's, nobody who does any kind of a structured, controlled statistical review or anything, just whoever wants to sign on and rant.

Dontcha see gadget that consumer ratings attract people who are either glowing with pride in their new ride, or have an axe to grind, mostly the latter? Nobody much in between would bother to rate a dealer. Same thing is true of car owner ratings, cruise ratings, hotel ratings etc. Only those with an exceptional experience bother to do a rating, so you're seeing only exceptions. You're hearing an extremely skewed sample of people who visit dealerships.

Your best chance to get good service at a dealer(or anywhere for that matter)? Go in with a positive attitude. You go in looking for trouble and you'll find it 10 times outta 10, whether it's Ford or Krogers.

Just my $.02.

mirth · August 2004

Amen. Good post. You catch more flys with honey.

wtd44 · August 2004

And Al Capone said, "You can get more done with a smile and a gun than you can with a smile alone."

elpasocraig · September 2004

When you decide to buy that upgraded radio option on a new car purchase, who's really making the money? Is it the Dealership or the Vehicle Manufacturer? How is the revenue split between them?

KCRam · September 2004

Craig, when you get a factory upgrade (like a top-line radio over the base), the manufacturer only charges the difference between the two units. If you ordered the same radio from the dealer parts desk, they'd charge you full cost for the better stereo, and are not obliiigated to give you credit for the factory-installed unit.

The dealer could care less what options you have... their profit is the difference between what they sell it for and what they paid for it. If options make the difference higher, that's what the dealer gets. The manufacturer is getting the difference in invoice prices between having the option and not having the option. For example:

AM/FM/6-disc CD/subwoofer invoice-310 MSRP-425

If you get the subwoofer unit, the manufacturer gets $310 more than whatever is standard. The dealer only has an opportunity to make $115 if they can sell the car for full sticker, because they have to pay that $310.

kcram
Host
Smart Shopper and Wagons Message Boards

alfox · September 2004

probably paid $100 each for that $450 stereo, but they also had to cover transportation and warehousing at the factory, "packaging" costs (picking the correct unit for the correct build and getting it to the line at the right moment), and the associated markjeting and promotional costs. That leaves them with some margin on third party accessories. I would assume that the margin on a Bose system (to pick an example) is a larger % than GM would take on a Delco, otherwise there would be no reason to go into the whole Bose thing at all. I would also guess that the bottom line net margin on Bose systems is somewhere in the order of 15% to GM, who's overall bottom line rarely exceeds ~6% net... just a guess.

landru2 · September 2004

2005 Explorer XLT Audiophile stereo option:
MSRP:$640
dealer invoice:$563

lainhb · February 2005

I worked for a dealer that was a independant but sold high end mostly BMW. I was the office manager for 6 years until my health stopped me. I have to say it was the only place were we actualy got letters from customers saying thank you for such a great experience and they were going to send everyone they knew there.

stickguy · February 2005

but I would wager (Terry could probably back this up) that a place like that probably made more money (that is, sold the cars for more) than many of the places that got panned.

Kirstie_H · March 2005

Please don't respond to messages like that. It just creates a load of extra work for me - you're welcome to e-mail me instead.

turboshadow · March 2005

Oops..sorry....

Turboshadow

stroudman · April 2005

Agreed. After over 5 years in the biz, I have noticed that the more positive and generally content people are, the more money they tend to spend generously, and the happier they are with their purchases. The two seem to go hand in hand. The dealership I work for is in a small town, has a good buzz around it, and we put alot of happy people into good cars. The more pessimistic and negative people are, the more easily they find something to feel scorned or dissatisfied about. I saw the same thing waiting tables when I was a student; as soon as some folks sat down to one of my tables, I knew no matter how timely the service, no matter how correctly ordered and well prepared the food, they would find a problem with SOMETHING because they didn't want to leave a tip.

isellhondas · April 2005

This is so true. The people who grind me to death and nitpick everything just never seem happy with their lives in general. I honestly try not to let their negative energy affect me but it's hard. Life is just too short to go through never trusting anyone and expecting the worst out of life.

I see this every day and it's hard not to get dragged into that pool of gloom.

stroudman · April 2005

looking for dissatisfaction, you will find it easier than you think.

toyotaken · July 2005

I have to vent here... I had a customer that I worked with over the phone the other night for over an hour. Looking for a specific color RAV-4, obviously shopping dealers over the phone, but hadn't talked with anyone that actually knew anything about the vehicle itself based upon the questions I was answering. I'm guessing, but I was probably the 3rd or 4th person he'd talked to. Went through all the options he wanted, color, model, etc. Quoted him a price as per his request with the equipment he wanted. Sounded very happy with the quote he recieved from me, but said he would talk with wife before calling back. That's fine and understandable. Called me about 10minutes before closing and put a deposit down over the phone. Set up an appointment for the next evening to finalize everything. I faxed a copy of the purchase agreement with all of the equipment, vin#, etc. per his request.

So this afternoon, wife called me and said she'd faxed our purchase agreement to several dealers and had one beat our number by $100. Also mentioned that she works with one of my GM's good friends. Told them ok, we'll match the number they recieved and include a couple of oil changes and a full detail at a future time of their choosing. (doesn't charge against the car, just to overhead) She's fine with that and confirms we'll meet this evening to finalize everything.

Husband calls back about an hour before appointment and tells me that another dealer will beat our number by $100 once again. After speaking with GM, we both agree we're not going to play the games anymore and say, we'll refund your deposit if you think that it's worth it to you to purchase the vehicle somewhere else. You have the GM of the dealership with 20+ years of experience with Toyota's in your corner and me with 10+ years of Toyota experience as well as being upfront and honorable in doing what they requested.

I just don't get some people????!!!

Sorry to vent, but just wanted to get that off my chest before work tomorrow morning so I can go in with a clean slate.

Ken

Kirstie_H · July 2005

Ken, sorry that happened to you. That's not a very nice way for customers to do business, especially over $100.

Hope your day today is filled with honest customers who just wanna buy a vehicle... from YOU!

toyotaken · July 2005

Thanks Kirstie. Now after a good night sleep (although short) I can go in with a clean slate. Hope you have a good one too.

Ken

rroyce10 · July 2005

.. **Also mentioned that she works with one of my GM's good friends**....

So much for friendship ..l.o.l... the best thing you can do in a situation like that is to always "confirm" and verify the relationship .... next time, ask who and how they know the GM or the dealer principle and check with them .. my salesman get calls every week with: "I'm best friends with Terry, I know him from golf, boat shows, the marina or the the canary festival in France" .. as a rule I've never met em', cuz' if they knew me they would have called me direct ....

**calls back about an hour before appointment and tells me that another dealer will beat our number by $100 once again** ...

You should've asked for a copy of the order, you should of had them fax you the paperwork from the other dealer and verified it ..... 98% of the time it's just smoke and mirrors and usually they won't tell you the other dealers name, and most times they're not comparing apples to apples or it doesn't have a roof rack or it's purple in color and nobody can sell it or they're comparing a 2wd with a 4wd and they won't admit it and my personal favorite - the other dealer doesn't even have it in stock, but he will give more for my trade ... ho-hum.

My great grand Daddy used to say .. "you can't lose what you don't have" and I don't think you lost anything ...... buyers like this make for bad customers, they want $900 in options for free, they want service loaners delivered at work when they sit in an office all day, they complain about dents on their vehicles that they had when they came in - and they will gag you all day long for your CSI ... it ain't worth it ...........

With bad buyers like this I always ask them the same question .. "do you have a map.?" .. and of course they get that dead mullet look in their face and ask .. "why do I need a Map.??" .... and my response is: .. "because you need to look up EL Passo, cuz' that's the route I'm takin'.!"

Terry :P

mikezoomzoom · July 2005

I feel your pain... way too much lately!!! I had some folks visit this past Saturday to "buy" a new Mazda 6. Saturday is pretty normal, consistent traffic, keepin' busy kinda day. It was in the second hour when they wanted to be "honest and straight forward" with me. I was told that they won't be able to make their purchase until Wednesday or Thursday because of a private business transaction. That's fine, yet I believe "honest and straight forward" in this regard should have been established up front. They still would have received top notch treatment but I could also have simplified some of my processes which weren't necessary at this visit.

CLOSED ON SUNDAYS... THANK GOD FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS!!!

So anyway... Monday morning comes and I leave a courtesy message at their home number. No Response all day... not a problem.

Tuesday rolls around and it's an optional day off, and I take it. This decision to take my day off is strongly influenced by my better half. She happened to call in sick(we're expecting our first born August 8th and we're definitely in the home stretch... loosely translated into "ready to pop"). I checked my office voice mail from home a few times during the day to no avail. No response still... they said Wednesday or Thursday.

Wednesday I return to work. Good news! My director informed me that my folks who wanted to buy a new Mazda 6 called and they'll be here tomorrow. What time? I dunno. I proceed to call out of courtesy so I can find out what would be a good and accommodating time for them to come in on Thursday, as like to plan my day if possible. I had to leave a message, with again no responses during the course of the day.

Thursday finally hits. I make three phone calls during the course of the day in an attempt to see what time I should set aside so I can go one-on-one with these folks. First call to his office... left message. Second call to their home... left message. Third and final call to his cell phone... left message. I don't hound my customers because I myself don't like to be hounded. I make calls out of professional courtesy and would appreciate consumer courtesy in return, mainly to touch base and let me know what's going on if possible. Heck! Even if it's to tell me you're not buying at all!

Long story short... I'm still waiting. Three hours invested on a busy Saturday, in addition to the miscellaneous hours invested in other aspects. Time keeps tickin'.

Here's the low-down. These folks were initially an internet lead. They came in and asked for the E-Commerce rep they had gotten a reply from. E-Commerce rep introduces me, MAZDA MIKE, to them since this is the way our dealership is set up, in order to split the deal and keep our E-Commerce reps focused on internet leads. We look at a few vehicles and make some determinations. We test drive one which is equipped the way they like except color. Sit back down and go over some figures on a located vehicle we can acquire from another network dealer, in the color they want. We offered factory unauthorized employee pricing to the public this past weekend to help stimulate business, so that is a no brainer.

S-Plan Pricing, factory rebate, and Mazda Credit Bonus Cash takes this car to about $4,800 off MSRP of $23,505. EMPLOYEE PRICING TO THE PUBLIC!!! S-PLAN TO EVERYONE!!! NO HAGGLE PRICING!!! NON-ELIGIBLE S-PLAN CONSUMERS WELCOME!!! NOT A MAZDA PROGRAM!!! No charge for getting the car they want from 250 miles, away even though it cost the deal around $150, from what small amount of holdback there is, for the services of a professional bonded driver to make this trip from Fort Worth to Austin and back.

After everything is said and done the commission would be a minimum of $100. As a result of how our store is set up I would then have to split that amount with the E-Commerce rep for a grand total of $50 in my pocket, yet I would receive volume credit for one unit sold.

Did these folks decide not to buy? Hope not!
Did these folks buy something else? Hope not!
Did they ask another dealer to beat me by a dollar? Hope not!
Did something unfortunate happen? Hope not!

Can they come in today and purchase? Hope so!
Can they simply apologize for not responding? Hope so!
Can I keep my great attitude as well? Hope so!
Can they be satisfied and send referrals? Hope so!

Hopefully it comes together so I can get my "honest and hard earned $50!"

I am a car salesman. The work we do so much of for so little in return. I question it all the time. I just love selling cars.
I am a car salesman. It's my career. It' my choice. Help me earn your business today! I don't make it difficult. I just love selling cars.

toyotaken · July 2005

That's basically the route I took with them after speaking with the GM. I don't want to put customers off intentionally, but if they're going to play these sorts of games when they already have a good contact at the dealership, the GM no less, then I can't even imagine what they'd be like in the future. It's just not worth it for me, the dealership or any of our sanities to deal with a customer who you deal with honestly and upfront with integrity and they use all of that against you. Does it happen, sure, but a unit credit and $50 mini commission is not worth getting someone who's going to do this. So move on to the next person who might actually appreciate the service.

Ken

bobst · July 2005

When we bought our Honda in March, we made an offer and specified that we wanted two extra valet keys. They said they would accept the offer but only give us one extra valet key.

So how much do you thing it would cost them to make a valet key? 25$ or so? That means they were rejecting our offer over a measly $25, which we thought was pretty silly of them.

I agree with you, Toyotaken. If they were going to play games over $25, then we wanted no part of that dealer, so we walked out.

However, before we could escape, the salesman came out to the parking lot and said they would give us the two keys like we asked, so we bought the car anyway.

Why don't dealers want to make money?

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