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Comments
DL
I think we went through this before, even the old WRX (2.0 instead of the new 2.5) consistently tested in the mid to high 5s. Agree with the looks and interior comments, though. At $23-24K it was a proposition, for the hatchback, but at $28K - no thanks. Also, at least in my opinion, the exterior looks have become worse over the years (and they didn't exactly start out at a good place).
Suzuki Aerio , Matrix, Vibe, Element - while cheaper, they do offer AWD models. Which again shows you that all this certification cost stuff is bogus. My point was, so you have owned one of those, want to upgrade and are used to and need and/or like AWD, where do VW and Audi currently leave you? Passat 3.6AWD Wagon or A4 wagon or 3.2A3 at 35K to 40K? Where is the middle ground, if you want AWD, between 20K and 35K? My prediction: in a year or two we will see three more VW models in addition to the A3 with the 2.0TFSI Haldex AWD.
Why they don't care to sell these cars now, that's what I don't get. I am sure lots of people would even be willing to pay a $500 low-volume penalty on 2.0TFSI quattros.
I've not seen results like that from a WRX. I've seen 6s. Regardless, I agree with the entirety of your post after that!
VW's on some serious crack with their pricing lately. A 4motion Passat with just sport package and xenons runs 35k!! That's insane.
They desperately need to get a 2.0 Quattro here.
Just from a single magazine
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=3615&page_number=3
-> 5.4 sec
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=2588&page_number=3
-> 5.9 sec
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=9975
-> 5.8 sec
Where in the world did you get "mid 6 sec"?
I've been very interested in A3 mostly because my wife is interested in it, but one thing that surprises a lowly suby owner like myself is how image conscious some people are in the "premuim" car discussions. Why would anyone care what is a "proper" car to drive to Ritz Carlton? :confuse:
I driven up to the Ritz-Carlton in Pasadena in a Buick Regal GS, a Pontiac Grand Prix, a Chrysler Sebring and a Mitsu Eclipse Spyder, all courtesy of our friends at National (LAX), and was welcomed with open arms and palms each time, as I recall.
No, it's just an ugly thing...
Don't get me wrong: A3 is a beautiful, well thought vehicle. But option it to my taste/desire and it flyes over $30K fast and furious, and still is just a FWD. 3.2 - sweet, but why no true manual and the price is just insane with options.
So - drop the base sticker by 2 grand or add quattro (even Haldex will do) for current price and you have a blockbuster, basically smoking out its potential competition. But they know better, apparently. Like VW, Jurgen decided that Americans don't deserve manual of 6-cyl or quattro on 4-cyl. Not to mention Jurgen wants to sell fully loaded only cause options are the biggest profit maker for the manufacturer (not necessarily the dealer).
What do you get? A car of choice for characters from "Beverly Hills 90210". Definitely not "value-oriented" professionals, who make some $50-$70K before they are 35, i.e. having enough to buy something "nice", but still needing to justify anything above $30K and 2.5K premium package with homelink to home they don't have yet, is not a spare change (for those asking who they are, I give example: engineers working in Southeastern states). Which market is more important? It depends who you want to cater to: "legacy" or "carrier" people. Audi's choice is clear, IMHO.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Sorry i take C&D's results with a grain of salt. They tend to always gets numbers far different from everybody else.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=46122/pageNumber=3
0-60 in 6.3 seconds.
I'm generally not image conscious but I do like my cars to at least feel like they're quality cars. The wrx feels to me like what it is - an economy car with a fast engine. When helping a friend look for a hatch last year she drove the WRX and called it fun but immediately said it felt like the kind of car a kid from orange county would drive. She ended up with the slower but more solid, refined, smoother Mazda3.
I personally wouldn't want to take someone out in a Legacy or WRX. Both feel like cheaply made, downgraded, loud, unrefined cars. For me it'd be as embarassing as arriving to take a girl to dinner in a camaro/vette/mustang. The same goes for roadtrips as the din at 85-90 mph is way too intrusive, making the already uncomfortable interiors worse by the racket from the tires, poor aerodynamics and thrashy sewing machine engine.
It's all a matter of taste. The WRX and all subaru products) are not at a level I would consider worthy of my money. If it's any consulation the same is true of every car made by ford, mopar and gm.
1. Skilled drop clutch launch.
2. Shifting. WRX has an optional short-throw shifter - fantastic "boy racer" thing that even and adult could enjoy a lot (he does, believe me
3. Not to mention putting just a bit out of peak boost will do it, too.
I don't think we will see such disparities in 06 - with reduced turbo lag, results should be more uniform.
Blue Guy - your standards are obviously higher than mine (as is wallet, probably
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The A3, flipside,is pretty comfy. The DSG is a delight. That engine is something I may build a shrine to.
Dislikes on the A3: thick protruding firewall that gobbles up leg space, bad manual/clutch (typical of german makes), fwd, rather soft in the corners. A sport package A3 could help at least the cornering softness.
By the way - there is a lot of stuff I don't like in Legacy myself, mostly typical "Japanese" ergonomics, like no telescopic steering column or wrong design of armrest. I still considered them small irritations rather than dealbreakers. Probably that AWD combined with great performance made me "forgive" most of other deficiencies. Matter of priorities and resources, I guess...
I can't get over Audi leaving me behind as I just thought I was getting into one of their cars. I feel like five-eight years ago with current status would afford me A4 with quattro, perhaps even V6 (stretch, but who knows). No more. A3 on the other hand - well, we already stated our positions. Nice, but too many "buts", mostly in "value of options" department.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well, let's get the facts right. Edmunds is the one that gets results different from everyone else. Look up Road and Track, Motortrend, or Automobile and find me a test where WRX tested in 6 sec range. Of course one can argue that Edmunds test is more "realistic", but unless you get to the limit of the car itself, how do you know whether you are measuring the car or the driver?
But in any case, as long as you stick to a single source to compare different cars, I guess it's all good.
I am rather surprised that you consider LGT to be "bargain basement" and still shopping for a car in under $30k range. I guess your only option will be VAG products then, as they do better than anyone else in the "perceived quality" department.
Unfortunately they also have larger discrepancy between that and the actual reliability than anyone else, but as long as the door makes nice sound when you close it, who cares about the plastic window regulator inside of it? :P
Finally, I love my Suby because I feel that it is a product that's driven by the engineers, not by the bean counters. Sure, there are parts of my car that are laughably unrefined, especially parts that may easily appeal to consumers. But everything that really matters to me is done with such integrity that is hard to find nowadays. To each his own.
My Supervisor still drives his Chocolate brown 1974 Nova to work, but you should see his Retirement portfolio.. Its all about priorities
What kind of [non-permissible content removed] ever looks to actually retire, anyway?
looking to buy a used 2006 A3.
here are the specs that i know...
5 months old.
DSG
open sky sunroof.
tinted windows.
custom installed pioneer mp3/cd player powered by subwoofer.
14K miles (that's a lot of miles)
for 22K.
any thoughts?
Yeah, 14K miles in five months is quite a bit. Has it got any service docs included?
Seems like a lot of driving.
So it was originally purchased in June?
i haven't seen them as i'm in a different state.
he wanted to sell for 24.5K and can't afford the payments anymore.
i've been looking at the a3 but with the specs of that car + taxes in washington, you're basically looking at 30K just like that. buy it used, and i can take that home for 22K. granted, need to fly in and drive it up.
Best Regards,
Shipo
sounds great a great price to me...
if he faxes all the docs i'm looking for, i think i'll do it.
Us Goverment schmucks ...You don't think a A3 towed by a Winnebago is cool ? :shades:
DL
It may be true, but I wonder about the terrible state of Audi you mentioned - what is their status these days?
I haven’t owned a car that didn’t depreciate
If you place an entertainment value on the auto, then maybe the depreciation will be less. If you spend $30 for a movie (conservative) for 1.5 hours of enjoyment, how much enjoyment will 1.5 hours in your A3 provide? Perhaps we should put $30 of the entertainment budget in a cookie jar very time we go for a “fun” 1.5 hour cruise this would offset the depreciation and provide entertainment.
If I were just looking for transportation I’d probably get a KIA or take the bus.
Perhaps buying a great car, like the A3.
I'm sure it's a nice car, but a terribly overpriced
Sitting right in there with its competition in the $25-30K range (a little higher, though, for the 3.2).
depreciating
Not any more than other cars. You can't look at lease rates (that, by the way, have recently improved) and infer depreciation from that. Rather, Audi is making leases unattractive in part to ensure that depreciation remains low.
likely extremely unreliable
Audi is slightly less reliable than the average, but improving. Look at actual numbers. "Extremely unreliable" would be having what - 5 times or 10 times as many incidences than average? That's not the case here. And believe it or not, to some people, having one more thing fixed per year (usually under warranty) than with another make is no big deal, at all. (For others, it is a deal-breaker. Consumers have different priorities).
member of an imploding carmaker's family
Audi is doing fairly well in the US, and is doing extremely well in Europe, currently. VW is one of the largest car makers in the world. Currently, Porsche is buying a 20% stake in VW. Would they do that if they thought VW is the next GM?
- what's the point? Depreciation alone probably makes this the most expensive car to buy in its class!
How do you know what the depreciation is going to be? I predict it to be very similar to A4s.
A BMW priced 5K more is probably cheaper to own.
Try buying a BMW for $30K, and if you find one, let's see about the true cost of ownership. O wait! Let's use Edmunds' nifty "True Cost To Own" feature. Since the A3 data are not available yet, let's start with the more expensive A4. What's that? It is $1800 cheaper after 5 years than the most basic 3-series, the 325i? It is 3 cents per mile cheaper to own? Based on the approximately $8,000 lower purchase price of the A3, could it be that the A3 is actually about $10,000 cheaper to own than the BMW, over 5 years? Who would have thought...
Subarus are a steal given their excellent residuals (when GM was giving away Saab 9-2x Aeros over the summer, they were cheaper than used WRXs)
A WRX is about $28K upward - so it may very well be more expensive, depending on how you configure each. It's a great performer, as discussed here numerous times, but many people don't cross-shop the two for reasons that are obvious to some, less so to others. Also, see my comment about GM above. You can only sell out to the point where you are getting bankrupt.
Anyone have a counterpoint?
More than one, see above.
1. Overpriced - for me if they knocked the sticker by $1000-1500 and there would be a winner (or alternatively, added quattro for the current price, either way would be fine).
2. Unreliable - well, data supports the past, it is not determinant of the future, but it is one of indicators. However, its main competitors do not seem to be much better (BMW, MB, Volvo and Saab's data are quite similar). They say they are improving so is MB or BMW, but just saying so does not make it.
3. Company faultering - well, VAG is not in a good shape, overall. However, Audi is its best part, literally. They produced the entire profit of the group (being only very small part of it).
4. Depreciation - it actually is a problem. However, it is often overblown by BMW group. Say you have $40K car with 55% residual. Cost before finance charges: $18K Compare it to $35K car with 50% residual - cost is $17.5K. However, finance charges, whether loan or lease will be higher on $40K with same rates. Audi often offers better rates than BMW, but it changes from month to month.
So - it is more a matter of personal preference, local conditions, and a bit of luck, rather than "hard" scientific choice.
My major grievance, probably most of us is no quattro on 2.0T. That shows they really should change their crack supplier at the headquarters
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I will be sweeping it up in a year. He-he......
The one new Audi I’ve owned was reliable, the one used Audi I had was marginal (more to do with the used car dealership i.e. non-Audi parts installed).
Going on personal experience, my new Honda had more problems than either Audi; and 75% (3 out of 4) people I know who have Honda trannies have had to have them replaced (mini-van)
Until I experience otherwise, and I won’t since I’m not in the market for a new car right now, I’d feel as comfortable with Audi reliability as anything else.
Well, statistically, I can't say the same; not "as anything else" that is. The point, to me, is that the discrepancy is extremely unlikely to be evident to the point I'd be uncomfortable with an Audi.
IOW, the difference between the very best of reliable and the average of reliable in this day and age ain't enough to scare me off in the least, especially if it's CR's reporting that's used. And Audi's numbers have been on the rise anyway.
I've got a Lexus that suffered complete electrical collapse on 5 July 2004. Made me suffer (I mean it) through two and a half weeks of skippering a RX330. I have significant doubts that Subie would be a better choice on such criteria...
Yes...
If you look at JD data where it lists problems per 100 vehicles such as a Lexus with 90 problems per 100 vehicles or a different manufacturer with 150 problems per 100 vehicles to me it doesn’t make a difference.
Reasoning: You’ll have to make a trip to the dealership anyway to get a problem fixed, so instead of saying “fix this”, you say “fix this AND that”.
Unless their problems per 100 vehicles is VERY low so you can basically say you don’t need to go into the dealer well that would be a little different.
Of course how the dealer treats you and their ability to quickly AND effectively resolve your problems could make a big difference in your perceived reliability (i.e. going back 5 times for the same problem)
The only things that I find "suspect" in this thread are blanket statements like that.
FWIW, I'm coming out of two consecutive BMWs, and I'm most likely heading into an A3.
It came to an astonishing 27,645 UK pounds including delivery. At the current exchange rate of 1.74 that is $48,102. :surprise: I did the same thing on the German site and It came to 35,400 Euros, which is $41595.
The US price is $30,515. Looks like we get a sweet deal here is the US compared to our European friends.
It doesn't work. But then I think you now know that!
Don't you wish we could have the Brit menu here? I tried an A8 on that site, and they get all kinds of options to play with we don't here.
Dang it.
Reasons: Socialist ripoff taxes on every stage of production and sale (e.g. VAT 15-25%), possible government export subsidies, significantly lower volumes of US-comparable trims (BMW 3-series starts as 316i with cloth seats, no cruise control and radio is optional), thus higher marginal unit cost, widespread use any conceivable anti-competitive practice that here would be sued by the first customer who runs into them here (sometimes trial lawyers can be useful, believe or not
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I tried it because the UK car review site www.whatcar.co.uk said the A3 was poor value. It is at those prices, but at the US prices its pretty decent value.
You know, i've read that sometimes companies pay people to do stealth PR in online forums. Sometimes i wonder if i'm seeing one or not...
Are you the voice of experience or are you just spouting the bilge that you've read on the internet? As for my being used to suspect reliability, well, of the last four cars my wife and I have purchased over the last seven years (two Dodge 3.8 liter Grand Caravans (1998 & 2003), a 1999 328i and a 2002 530i), I've spent a whopping $285 in unscheduled maintenance outlined as follows:
$1.00 - two burned out taillights for the 328i
$150.00 - two Sears DieHards, one each for the two GCs
$126.00 - vacuum battery tray for the 1998 GC
$8.00 - door switch for the 1998 GC
Hmmm, maybe I'm a little cracked, however, that sounds like those cars have been anything but "suspect" when it comes to their reliability. That and I would expect similar reliability from the potential A3 in my future.
Best Regards,
Shipo
If everything develops in parallel, street prices for the package 1 and package 2 5-door GTI would be slightly below $25.5K and $26.5K, respectively --- add another $1K or so more for DSG. The car comes standard with a lot of goodies (multi-function computer display, ESP, Xenon, multi-function leather-wrapped steering wheel, aluminum accents, paddle-shifters etc.). Package 1 adds sun roof and satellite, package 2 adds heated sport leather seating, dual automatic climate control, and essentially a cold-weather package.
I am still hoping for an A3 2.0TFSI quattro release at about the same time, but at those prices, I am leaning more towards the A3 in general. What's your take?
Sorry, I meant $24.5K and $25.5K, respectively.
Anyone know the rear seat legroom in inches?
e.g In a G35 the rear seats are inclided...so fitting a seat requires you prop it up.
But now with a family, I wonder, is there anything out there that has that quick handling, some decent cargo space, and a good sized rear seat for kids seats (given I will want the driver's seat ALL the way back).
Dave in VA
or even A4 Avant.