Audi A3

blueguydotcom

There won't be any significant price increase- and I guarantee you that BMW will go the way of Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and discontinue their free maintenance program.

Wow, how nice of you to contradict BMW's officials who say otherwise - http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060213/FREE/60212004&Search- ID=73235758239504

Reasons they want to keep it:
1. Buyers like the program and it makes getting into the brand easier - 3 series is the brand.
2. Increases resale value - the car was perfectly maintained by the dealer with OEM parts for the first 50k miles.
3. Creates rapport with dealership (my dealer just gave me a $50 gift certificate after taking my 330i to them for 3 years). You develop relationships with the people at the dealership.
4. Dealers make more money. Huh? Yeah, see the only make 40-50 cents on the dollar for warranty stuff but they get almost all the cars they sell and some they don't coming to them, so volume is really high.
5. Keeps lease cars maintained at a higher level.
6. CPO sales are easier as they have full records.

So while others have left it, BMW plans to maintain the program as it only helps them and their buyers.

esf

There is one main thing in there that can stay alive with any dealer- customer relations.

I just bought my third Audi from one of my local dealerships, (out of four I've owned) and the experience couldn't have been better. However, I have yet to buy an Audi that is '07 or newer- so I'd like to see the customer relations in that situation.

However, I think this proves that Audi is confident about their products' reliability. If their cars really were bad performers, do you think they'd want to lose this many potential customers and make new Audi owners angry? All four of my Audis have had nothing huge happen to them, the largest issue being an oil leak on a '98 A4 I bought used for my son.

However, the newer Audis that I own currently, an '06 A3 and an '05 S4 Cabriolet, have had nothing happen to them at all. The only nuisance I get with either is people staring at them too much!

I have many, many friends who have had Audis. Three of us started with A6 2.7T's in 2000, and now, one of my friends has an S6 Avant, another has an A8L, and I have an S4 Cabriolet- all some of Audi's most beautiful models. It's very interesting to note the different paths we took in our cars. I kept my A6 the longest, and I bought a convertible; someone else bought a wagon, and another an upscale sedan.

dino001

However, I think this proves that Audi is confident about their products' reliability.

I think it proves nothing other than they see no added value in the program and would rather take it. MB discontinued the program, too - did their reliability change? Not really, if anything you can hear more and more recalls.

Giving 5-year warranty would be a sign of confidence in the product, not a hidden price increase in form decontenting it :mad:

kurtamaxxxguy

with Audi's Johan de Nysschen (do web search for thecarconnection and you'll find it; I don't believe Edmunds allows posting of direct links)provided insight into Audi today. Johan commented that incentives had to go and the dealers be "put on a diet". Hence, no rebates and discontinuance of free maintanance. He also remarked rebates cheapened the "value" of the Audi line.

Johan also said while Audi costs were too high, he was happy Audi profits had gone up (in part due to increased pricing on the cars).

He also commented that due to lack of manufacturing capacity specific to Audi, some Audi product was being built on underutilized VW production lines, but the "final" assembly of the products was done on a dedicated Audi assembly line.

blueguydotcom

Giving 5-year warranty would be a sign of confidence in the product, not a hidden price increase in form decontenting it

Agreed. I know BMW's and Audis 06 program makes a difference to me. I looked at the IS350 and saw the price with xenons and sport package (40k), trouble with ordering (nearly impossible to order a lexus) and lack of included service (at least $1k over 50k miles) and opted for a make that provides more customized ordering, cheaper price and included service.

Maybe Audi will regret their decision. I know when I look at the price of an Audi and think about buying in 07 and beyond I'll always factor in ~1k more for service now.

blueguydotcom

I've posted links before:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Profiles_QA/5_Questions_Audis_Johan_de- _Nysschen.S193.A10360.html

The Car Connection will be delighted with hits.

nyccarguy

It is funny, when you walk into an Audi or MB dealership and mention you're also looking at a particular competing BMW model and casually mention BMW's Free Maintenance they always reply that BMW will do away with it. Not True.

dl7265

TO be accurate as I recall I took delivery of my E90 about the 10th of May/05 and A3 were just arriving here...I don't think people had a chance to find out about the car. Unlike the 2 year build up for the New E90...

DL

rjlaero

You're going to be able to buy the 4/50 service program for about $500-600, not $1000.

blueguydotcom

I'm mentioned expected cost of maintenance over 50k miles - I assume a car will cost about $1000 in that time (brakes and rotors, oil changes, wipers, etc.)

i don't care how Audi wants to bilk customers for a paid-for-maintenance post-purchase.

rjlaero

bluedot,

It looks like you're going to be driving BMW's for the rest of your life, as they are the last of any car company doing free maintenance in 2007. However long that lasts.

But Audi isn't bilking anybody. Even the current paid for maintenance for 2006 doesn't include wiper blades and brake pads for 4 years or 50k miles. There is a 12k wearable allowance for them right now. So a true apples to apples comparison is about $500 for the maintenance package that will include the 15, 25, 35, and 45k service intervals.

And for "bilking", BMW has been overcharging customers for years and years when it comes to pricing and expensive options.

In the end, the customer always pays for eveything.

ccd1

For all of us who have complained about A3 pricing, things are about to get interesting. The 4-door VW GTI will be hitting showrooms in the Fall. IF the car is mechanically reliable, it could be quite an alternative to the A2 as it will probably cost $2-3k less than the A3 for the same mechanicals.

If the R32 makes these shores, the A3 2.2 will have its day of reckoning too. The question then becomes how much of a premium will people pay for the Audi nameplate?? Also what do you get with the A3 that is lacking on the GTI and is it enough to justify the price difference.

blueguydotcom

Huh, Audi charged for brake pads and rotors?! Dang, i had no idea.

And we should not talk price. An A3 3.2 with just open sky and bixenons comes in at 36k msrp. That's pretty pricey! $700 for xenon lights? BTW, my e90 with leather, moon, xenons, 6 speed, sport rang in at 35.7k.

kurtamaxxxguy

The Audi Streets of Tomorrow in LA let me drive the A3 3.2 for the first time. Audi set this up at the Pacific Design Center, a modern building in a traffic choked part of north/western LA, CA

I was given two 1-mile long metropolitan drive stints, where the car could barely get over 30 mph and had little opportunity to do any true handling or performance evaluation.

That said, the car rode much better than expected. Some 1 inch deep asphalt pavement ripups didn't flap the car at all, though a washboard surface did make it hobbyhorse briefly. No jitter or jiggle - hit the bump and it's over.
The DSG paddles were fun to play with but kinda hard to manipulate with the wheel turning (practice needed), and the DSG "grumbled" through some of the up-down shifts. Going around turns, the A3 stayed flat. Interior was a bit snug and the seats' bottom bolsters might be a problem for long trips, but the console didn't get in the way of legs. Nicely finished - makes most GM cars look like Fisher Price. No rattles or bad fitting parts noted. Instruments easy to read. Air conditioning was easy to set up and moved good bit of air.

Audi did not have A3 2.0 with DSG (only 2.0 they had was a manual). Having not used a manual for awhile, and not wishing to goof up in heavy traffic, I passed on that.

3.2 Definitely better than expected. Worth 40K? Good for really long trips? Not sure yet.

A nice long chat with Audis' A3 product manager revealed the 3.2 engine does __not__ have FSI and there will be no A3 2.0 Quattro for several years. The Body and Engine of the 3.2 are from VW, the rest is Audi.

kurtamaxxxguy

The Audi folks said they inspect their VW-sourced cars around 25% more than comparable VW's get, to assure higher quality. There is also the Audi interiors.

Also, supposedly Audi uses its own Quattro system for its 3.2.
I do not know what VW uses or will use for the R32 (or R36, should they decide to wait for the next Golf Revision to bring AWD back to their GTI variants).

allhorizon

Kurt,

All VWs and Audis with transverse engine layout (Golf, R32, A3, TT, new B6 Passat) use the same Haldex AWD; the longitudinal engine cars (A4 and up, old B5 Passat like mine) have the TorSen AWD. And yes, only the Euro 3.2VR6 of the Passat, the VR6 of the US Passat, and most Audi V6s use FSI (in addition to several 4cyl. engines).

Sorry to hear the drive was so short and slow - but it seems you had fun and liked the car quite a bit. Remember that snugger and firmer seats usually are better for long trips, of course also depending on any back problems and lumbar adjustability. As to the paddles, in tight curves, you can always use the regular gear shifter, instead.

My appointment is for next Saturday, let's hope I can make it.

ccd1

Mechanically, the new GTI is the A3 and the A3 3.2 is the R32. Reliability has been an issue for VW and the Golf/GTI/R32 will suffer if VW does not take care of this issue. Audi appears to have reliability under control with the A3, but places like Consumer Reports have yet to opine on the issue.

Until I can actually get into the new GTI, it seems to me you are paying more for better reliability (maybe), a better interior and the Audi name plate. Reliability is a big issue, but there are no reliability ratings for either the A3 or the GTI. If reliability is about the same, I'm not sure I'd pay much more for either a little better interior or the Audi name plate. Take a look at a review at thetruthaboutcars.com The review sounds a lot like a review of the A3. Personally, if the GTI has comparable reliability, I doubt I'd pay the premium for the A3.

blueguydotcom

Drive an A3 and Gti in the same day. The size and shape of the two cars is quite different. The GTI is taller and almost egg-like which makes the way the car drives and feels totally differnt. I was really shocked at how ungainly the GTI felt vis-a-vis the lower, seemingly slimmer A3 (could be the lower roof height alone) felt.

kurtamaxxxguy

Quite interesting about the Haldex, as the Audi A3 Product manager I spoke to insisted that the Quattro in the A3 3.2 was Audi's alone. Perhaps he was referring to a special calibration of that hardware instead? The chat made it very apparent that, at least in the A3, Audi was thinking __sport__ and nothing else for the application of their AWD.

However, he commented how bad the Michigan roads were in comparison to the Calif. streets Audi had its cars on. He also said the suspension in the 3.2 was around 1 cm lower in heigth than the regular A3.

Wrt snug seats, the 3.2s' tended to pinch near the rear, which is a problem for me due to unusual nerve placement.
Then again, one could always add seat padding or have a talented uphoster reshape the seat. The Lumbar control was excellent - far better than the tin can strips Chevy stuck in their seat.

It's an appealing car, but given its huge expense I'll wait for some more reliability data (still nothing at JD Power on any A3). Though, sadly, the declining dollar will insure the A3 costs a fair bit more for 2007.

Hopefully, allhorizon, you will make the show and get to speak to the same A3 Product manager!

ccd1

You can't drive the A3 and the GTI together now. The model which is the A3 is not hitting showrooms until the Fall. The one review I've found of the new GTI said the car was far from ungainly.

ccd1

Also take a look at the pics of the new, GTI, the car is much less boxy

blueguydotcom

ccd1, I've driven the Mrk V GTI - same Mrk V chassis as the A3, same 2.0T engine, same DSG tranny - and it's a rolly-polly mess in the corners. The egg shaped car wobbles like an egg in my experience with it. The salesguy thought I was a semi-pro racer from the way I drove the car - even telling me he'd never seen someone push the GTI like that on any road. I'd say I exercised the little bugger.

Compared to 90% of the cars out there, yeah, the GTI's pretty darn good. Compared to what I expect of a car...

The A3 is decidedly lower - the GTI's stance was raised to meet some nefarious crash test garbage - and it "seemed" wider. I could check the stats to see if A3 really does have a wider track. Perception to me, the A3's lower center of gravity made the care feel more planted and it felt to me like it cornered much flatter than the GTI's swaying body undulations. Again, compared to most cars, the GTI's a standout. I compare to what I want and for what I want the GTI's not a solid handling car. Heck, even the seating position (after lowering the seat) and that blasted massive windshield felt too high!

Is there a 4 door GTI yet? No. But considering that will be a car that's longer than the GTI and just as tall, I cannot see how it could possible handle better than the A3 sport. You're talking more weight up high - thus an even worse center of gravity.

ajfinoak

Am looking at an A3 with a Premium Pkg vs the Sport Pkg. Drove the Sport Pkg in San Fran and it was definitely bumpy on less than perfect streets. Articles I have read on the handling say the base and Premium Pkg handling is disappointing (driving in back and forth curves) and say the Sport Pkg is a must. Feedback on Sport vs Premium will be appreciated. Also wondering about standard radio vs Bose. Thanks!

allhorizon

The 5-door GTI is the same length, and has identical measurements (except number of doors, door size, and slight increase in weight) compared to the 3-door. It will be here this summer (between July and August, depending on who you ask).

Again, blueguy, you are the only person I know who thinks the 2.0TFSI A3 handles better than the GTI. Everyone else I know, and every comparative review I have seen, indicates otherwise. In the end, I think they are very close in handling, and 90% of their drivers will rarely if ever take them (correctly) far enough to the limit to be able to tell a difference. I'll be able to provide a review if I can make it to the event next week.

dino001

Product manager I spoke to insisted that the Quattro in the A3 3.2 was Audi's alone.

He probably meant there is not US market counterpart from VW for A3 3.2 and that is true. VW counterpart would be R32, which is not available in US.

Whether some special calibrations are done, I don't know. I suppose it's possible - for instance dedicating different from/rear split. Suspensions are also different, which usually results in different car response overall.

kurtamaxxxguy

Has anyone noticed if the DSG in the 2.0 T "grumbles/hunts" less when downshifting than the 3.2 does?
I'd hoped to drive both but Audi either did not have or wasn't driving their 2.0T DSG at the recent show I attended.

Wrt 3.2, was one of the first cars I have driven that hardly leaned at all in a turn.

Wrt R32, only Volkswagen knows if they will bring it here again.

Lastly, tires; one mag that tested a GTI claimed its handling was much better on 17" wheels than 18" wheels (was more "tossable"). Would be interesting to find out what wheel size does to the A3 handling/ride.

tslbmw

I had the same dilemma and decided on a Sport/DSG/standard Audi-concert radio equipped A3. I drove the Prem pkg equipped A3 back to back with the Sport and could definitely tell the difference. After two months of ownership, I'm very happy with the trade off. It (the sports suspension) definitely lets you know where the bumps and expansion joints are...but, all and all, it's not too bad...it depends on your priorities. Hope this helps and good luck deciding...it's a GREAT CAR!

dl7265

Get a set of euro or H@R springs. And your still 5K ahead.. plus the 18 wheels, Best steering wheel on the market ect...

DL

esf

A magazine article I read said that the A3 was too good to be ignored- and well worth the premium over the GTI. I believe it was European Car. They said that the car felt more secure in the twisties, it had a less-cold, slightly more luxurious interior, and proportionately, better styling. They also said that the 3.2 is definitely not worth the money- but I believe we all know that. They said that the A3 3.2 quattro loses the "light-on-its-feet" feel, and because of its significant weight gain, can't achieve much better than a .2 advantage in 0-60. I think that 0-60 in 6.4 seconds (2.0T DSG) is good enough, thank you!

dhamilton

both. The Audi to me had more direct steering, quicker throttle response, and felt more planted. That's the A3 2.0t vs GTI. The 3.2 had more midrange torque but didn't feel much quicker. The big price difference also shows up in the quality of materials for Audi.

alexbacon

Hi all,

In regards to the pricing...I got my A3 2.0T loaded with everything except cold weather pckge and Nav System for $31,400.00. I was pretty pleased with myself for getting that deal but I really with they made the 2.0T with Quattro. I would really love it if they brought over their 3 liter diesel engine. Hopefully someday soon. I guarantee they will drop the pricing on the A3 within this year, they aren't selling as well as expected.

dino001

Don't think so. They may add a little incentive in lease, but so far they just increased their prices. The exchange rate pushed them to the wall - I see them dropping A3 from the lineup before significanlty lowering the price.

fourrings

Did not check if they were performance tires. I'm currently driving a 2005 A6. That could be the reason i noticed the difference in ride and road noise. I'm running 20" wheels with Eibach springs right now. The A6 ride is still better and quieter. I know they're completely different cars and can't really compare them.

wale_bate1

I'd just about guarantee that what you noticed was the difference in wheelbase. Longer base = smoother ride.

Great for riding. For driving? Obviously, all other things being equal, quicker handling should belong to the shorter wheelbase - to a point.

I tested a 3.2Q which is S-Line. No way in Hades I'd opt for anything softer, personally.

20" on a A6, eh? Sounds a bit of overkill, fourrings. Which rim are you running, and with what tire? At that size, I'd be looking strictly at forged, and ultra lightweight. Actually, on a 6, I don't think I'd go past 18"; 19" on an A8. Diminished return, I should think. Any idea what your package weight is?

kurtamaxxxguy

how much was the increase ( I suspected that would happen soon as the Dollar is dropping against the Euro) ?

As side note, the A3 could benefit hugely from the Michelin Tweel (low weight, compliant ride, razor sharp handling).

shipo

The other possibility regarding the car that fourrings drove is that it wasn't properly prepped. I had that happen with my first BMW, they forgot to lower the tire pressure from the "Shipping pressure", which is something north of 50 psi IIRC. I noticed the serious rough riding immediately upon taking delivery of the car (although I didn't immediately know what the problem was) and took it right back. A couple of minutes to check the tire pressure and the problem was solved.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dino001

My understanding is A4 went up over $500 across the board. I don't know about A3 - didn't follow it closely. Perhaps they did not make the increase.

The dollar thing is really dramatic - just a few years ago it was about 80 cents on euro, now is the other way around - less than 80 eurocents on a dollar. You do the math. They have not choice, but to star price increases.

I think it all just started - all of them will go up. Even assuming they were making tons before and are hedged a little, no one will withstand long-term 50 percent or so cost increase.

ccd1

One limit on how much they can increase the price will be the competition from their parent, VW. The 4 door GTI due out in the Fall will compete with the A3. If the delta between the GTI and the A3 gets too big, A3 sales will suffer.

dino001

Actually, internal competition does not matter that much as external. My point was that entire segment of eurocars will suffer either dramatic loss profitability or dramatic price increases in next few years, if those currency ratios are to stay. Prices did creep for last couple of years, but not even close to euro change, thus they have to go up way beyond that to offset the cost, of course until the market rejects the price.

As much as I can see people paying 100 grand for A8, even 45-50 for a loaded A4, I cannot see sales of either A3 or GT in high 30s. So they'll take a hit either way and I can see A3 being withdrawn completely. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it may.

I would not be surprise if eurocar market shrank in next five years. The number of models may increase, but the sales may not. Rich like personalization and they're willing to pay for it, it is those wannabe's who will flee when 84 month loan or 10K/year lease will not cover their coveted machine (first to admit - always wanted A4 or 325iT, never could afford, still cannot, will not for next few years at least ).

kurtamaxxxguy

was a website called swedespeed.com which compared an A3 2.0T with a Volvo V50 T5 with AWD. Kinda a wierd comparison (apparently the 3.2 was not available).

A particularly interesting remark was that Volvo was/is using the same Haldex AWD that Audi is using in the A3 3.2.

Either the site is wrong or this Haldex AWD is used on several cars from different companies, including the 3.2. In that case, I guess :confuse: distinguishing factor is Audi's calibration of the A3 Haldex.

fourtitude.com also has some good Audi A3 articles; only thing fortitude didn't like were the brakes.

BTW, the Volvo V50 has a terrible reliability record. Not sure how much of that is due to the AWD system. :sick:

shipo

The Haldex system that is used on the A3 3.2 is a purchased system from the Haldex company http://www.haldex.com/index_main.asp and as such, it is available to any other company that wants to pay for it. As far as I can tell, the unit installed on the A3 ain't nuthin' special.

Best Regards,
Shipo

wale_bate1

Good point, Shipo.

kurtamaxxxguy

thanks, Shipo! Good info! Also looks like a major change for the Haldex in 2008. Will read more at that site.

Audi product manager told me the A3 was an __exclusive__ system, then sort of hedged and said the engine in 3.2 came from VW (R32). Now the rest of it comes out.

So other than DSG and some shock/drive calibration, what's different about A3 AWD .vs. Volvo and others using Haldex.

dino001

My understanding is Haldex allows for different "normal driving" split. Volvo is a FWD with Haldex engaging rear up to 50%. I'm sure Audi is using different splits.

blueguydotcom

Volvo's Haldex setup is like the Mazdaspeed6 one (same company - Ford): ie junk. It's FWD bias with up to 50% going to the rear. It totally negates the concept of fun driving.

fourrings

The C6 needs 20" wheels to look right. I've tried 19's and they look small unless u get something with really huge spokes. They're 20x9 all around 2" front lip and 3" rear lip made by DCR Forged and 255/30/20 Mich PS2. The 20" wheel/tire 2 pounds lighter than the 18" stock wheel/tire. No great but not bad either.

maximafan

Wow, Fourrings! Those wheels look really
nice on your A6. I hope you weren't thinking
of changing from the A6 to the A3. Not to
diss the A3, but your A6 is a sweet-looking
car.

fourrings

The A3 will be for the wife. It should be okay around town. Really like the DSG since the wifey is not comfortable driving a stick

allhorizon

My understanding is Haldex allows for different "normal driving" split. Volvo is a FWD with Haldex engaging rear up to 50%. I'm sure Audi is using different splits.

Guys, remember that there is no such thing as front/aft split with Haldex. All these cars are permanently driven FWD with a wet clutch mechanism that, based on rotational differential, engages the the back on demand (but not very pro-actively). By definition, this is more or less an on-off switch configuration. Since you need to avoid binding, and the mechanism can't take slip under partial transfer load for any extended time, Haldex cars are basically almost 100% FWD until the back engages, which then has to disengage quickly under normal driving and good traction, to avoid binding. Yes, newer versions of Haldex take into account all engine and dynamic information available (rpms, throttle position, yaw angle, steering wheel angle), which helps the system to make proactive decisions. However, the VW and Audi implementations to date lack the auxiliary pump that would allow the back to engage without rotational difference to the front (which is the lone thing the current pump system relies on).

What is special about the R32 and the quattro A3 is not the use of the Haldex system per se, but the fine tuning of the entire chassis, suspension, engine, and drive train - which allows for rather tight, sporty handling given the heavy weight nature of these cars. In addition, all these cars do very well on snow and ice, too.

PS: I like TorSen better dynamically, and for its ability to avoid traction problems in the first place by transferring less torque to any given wheel at all times. But under very severe weather conditions and moderate speeds, I strongly believe Haldex is better.

andres3

The A3's interior is in another league over the GTI's. You are simply buying a cheaper car (in material quality) when you buy a GTI over an A3. Also, no free maintenance for 2006's in VW's vs. Audi.