Even though the deal was below invoice, the dealer would not have sold if he was losing money on the deal.
A dealer might sell a car at a lose for several reasons. One is to get rid of a car that has been on the lot to long (the longer it sits there the more it costs the dealer) or to make a set sales target are two good reasons to sell at a loss.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
pch....you may very well be right. I've not done any research on Escalades, at all. If I were in the market for one, I'd do due dilligence in finding out incentives.
With just a cursory look, the only inventive on '07 Escalades in my region is the free NAV system promo Cadillac offers. That's probably worth somewhere around that $2,100 you described on '07 models. But, you only get that if the Escalade you're looking at has a NAV system. I believe the $5,000 Incentive you refer to is only on '06 models. A dealer could slap some GMID certificates (if they have any left) on one, too. In my area, GM isn't offering any 0% deals on '07s. They do have some finance deals on '07, but none of them are attractive enough that I couldn't beat the rate at my local credit union.
snake....are those '06 or '07 models?
Another offer I saw locally was $99 over invoice on any new, in stock Toyota Camry (limited time offer). But, that was only from one dealer. I would expect other Toyota dealerships in my area would match it, however. I doubt seriously that the offer includes hybrid Camries, either.
Point I was trying to make is there is no set amount above, or below invoice to offer that can be considered a hard and fast rule.
Without knowing the region, the specific car, time of year/month, dealership's stock status, etc., I don't know that any of us can say any amount offered will be reasonable to get a deal done.
My point was that you can't count on the dealership personnel to give you an honest answer about whether vehicles are scarce and are fetching a premium, when most cars are available in abundant quantities.
People need to have reasonable expectations of what to expect at dealerships, and candor is often not one of those things. Dealers are not likely to confess to you that certain cars are dogs. They might, particularly if they think that telling you this will convince you to buy it, but they generally won't concede this in an honest fashion.
I don't fault them for withholding information like this, I would do the same if I was in their position, but the bottom line is that they often aren't going to give you the facts about anything that could substantially improve your negotiating position.
Point well made. It is the salesman job to move as many cars as possible in the shortest amount of time at the highest price point. This is true for any sales job. Certain things will be said by the salesman that do not reflect reality, either intentionally or just due to misinformation on the salesmans part. For this reason the best defense for the buyer is to be an informed buyer.
Of course some are more this way than others.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree with your points. The dealer might lose a little bit on a vehicle but he will make it up with the bonus money he gets for attaining sales goals. The point I was trying to make is that any bonus money for reaching sales goals offsets any potential loss on an individual vehicle. (Sometimes the typing moves quicker than the brain and things don't come out as planned )
As far as Corolla's go. Sales are up 25% from previous year so I don't think they are having much problem moving these cars. I know that is not the case for every brand. Once the floor plan assistance money is used up, I could see how a dealer would want to move something that has been sitting around for a few months.
I agree with your points. The dealer might lose a little bit on a vehicle but he will make it up with the bonus money he gets for attaining sales goals.
thats not the only reason. A dealer might take a $100 loss on a car for the simple reason that it has already been on the lot for 90 days and he doesn't want to keep it for another 90 days. Its sort of like take a $100 loss on it today or sell it 90 days later (incurring $300 in inventory costs) for $200 more.
As far as Corolla's go. Sales are up 25% from previous year so I don't think they are having much problem moving these cars.
Yes unless its that base model with the manual transmission in that awful color that reminds you of baby puke with the interior that looks like it was picked out by a color blind person that has no options.
Even with cars that sell well you may get that one combination that just won't sell.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have also used Fitzgerald as a reference starting point....but...be aware that they do have a "dealer fee" and I have not been able to get their INVOICE price on certain models to JIVE with Edmunds, cars.co. NADA, etc. and that is comparing IDENTICAL equipped model and vehicle. Their invoice price is always HIGHER for some reason, However; it is a good reference to get a rough idea.
I believe it is $299.00 and the model that I compared to Edmunds was a 2006 PT Cruiser Limited with the same options! As far as a trade-in??? I don't know if you would get lowballed or whatever. I have not personally dealt with them (Florida Fitzmall). I do know that they do not have any ADM stickers and yes, it is a very good tool. A very good way to get a price start and to go armed with their print-out!
they actually offer 2 prices: basic internet price (you jest get the car), and a "deluxe" price (not sure what they call it) that includes perks like loaner cars, service stuff (maybe free oil changes), stuff like that.
I think the price bump is reasonable for what you get, but the obviously recognize (and state on the web) that they sell a lot of cars to people from out of the area that aren't ever coming back for service.
I too use them, and autofair in NH, as quick reference points for pricing. I also live in between the 2, close enough to go to either place if the deal was right. But, I have always been able to get a comparable deal locally, so it was never worth the trip.
I know that Autofair touts how they pick you up at the airport (only a few miles away), and their dealer fees are very low, so they too must do a lot of out of town business.
I too use them, and autofair in NH, as quick reference points for pricing. I also live in between the 2, close enough to go to either place if the deal was right. But, I have always been able to get a comparable deal locally, so it was never worth the trip.
yeah I don't think their prices are any much lower than someone can get using some basic negotiation techniques. So unless your dealing with an expensive car that no one else is dealing with I don't think its worth the 800 mile trip. But as I said its just a tool.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The invoice prices of some cars (like Toyota) include dealer ad (or other) fees that vary by region. Although legitimate, such fees are NEVER reflected in popularly published invoice prices.
snake....it's still a good resource if you're in the market for one of the models they sell. If nothing else, you've got a price that the local dealerships have to beat.
Not something I'd use for GM cars, as I qualify for GMS. The other manufacturer's models I can see where it would be helpful, though
Negotiated a decent price for a new red honda yesterday without mentioning my wagon as a part of the deal, saying I had a private buyer. But since the car isn't in stock and is being ordered, I said I now am not quite in a position to sell to these "people" just yet since I don't want to be without a car. Now I'm at dealer's mercy, so to speak, because they already have my grand for the car that's being built. What are my options for trading it in, at this dealer and elsewhere...And if I get a certain promised amount for my car, how long does that hold for, let's say my new car takes 6 weeks to arrive....?
I figure I can do the following with my passat wagon w/ 85K:
1)trade in at purchasing dealer, if $ is high enough
2)try to go to a VW dealer. But here's the glitch, my car just had rebuilt engine and trans put in by one of two local ones in Aug/sept, so am I likely to get a decent deal from them, I'm guessing not. The other dealer, let's just say they were awful every time I had to go in there (since EW contract required it be repaired at dealer where I bought it to cover cost)...that puts me at selling to a dealer downstate or out of state....
3)shop a few used car lots in area and see what they'd give me
Any ideas out there? I didn't quite think through this possibility and counted on negotiating the trade in along with my new car purchase but that day I was pressed for time. So should my going back to Honda dealer be first thing I try?
I got 6-8K estimate from someone I posted to earlier, which kinda scared me. Edmunds said between 11-13, depending on where I traded it in. Has high miles but decent extras like leather/heated seats, moonroof and upgraded monsoon stereo system.
Please help...everyone has held my hand this far and I hope you can direct me further!!! :confuse:
1)trade in at purchasing dealer, if $ is high enough
That is doable plus depending on the state you are in it could save you a bit in taxes. You might want to get a few estiments (or offers to buy it) before trying to trade it in, carmax will do this and it will be good for a few days and (I think) 300 miles.
Just remember you will always get more by selling it yourself.
But here's the glitch, my car just had rebuilt engine and trans put in by one of two local ones in Aug/sept, so am I likely to get a decent deal from them, I'm guessing not.
You won't get a better deal with a rebuilt engine and tranny its still a Passat wagon with 85K miles.
As for Edmunds and Kelly Blue Book and references like that, take what they say with a grain of salt. People have a nasty habit of over estimating their cars with those tools. People have a tendency to rate their cars at a better condition than they really are, its natural to do that. Secondly some goodies that you like and would pay more for may not be what many others would consider valuable.
My advice is if you can but the new car without a trade in do so then sell your current car as a private party sale. If you can get around without a car for a short period try selling it before you take delivery (however this might backfire if for some reason you can't or won't take delivery as promised you could be at the mercy of the dealer).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For the umpteenth time, it's always the MARKET that determines pricing.
What the invoice id has nothing to do with anything. do not assume there isfactory incentives to a dealer.
That 2007 Corolla is a perfect example of this. Although a good car, it is six year old body style and a car that isn't "hot" at all. I'm sure the dealers are being incentified on these. When the 2008 Corolla comes out, it'll be a different story!
As usual, ‘snake’ gave you good advice (post 988).
Here’s my two cents worth.
I definitely feel that you should sell it yourself to an individual, if you are looking for the absolute best price. If you are looking for convenience, selling to a dealer or, worse yet a used car lot, (which IMO is akin to dealing with wolves) you have to be willing to forgo some dollars. Convenience always has a price but maybe you’re willing to pay this price. Your choice.
You said you just had a rebuilt engine and tranny installed, this combined with the car being in pretty good condition (you have to be VERY realistic here and not over value it, you MUST look at it with an objective eye because anybody who is going to buy it will surely do this), I would spend the money to have it detailed by a pro because this will show it off the best and get you your best price. Dealers do this all the time because it is profitable. If it wasn’t they wouldn’t do it.
Finally, because of the rebuilt engine and tranny, I would shoot for the high end of any category you feel it is in and work down from this if you have to.
You’re essentially the dealer now and you will have to negotiate as such.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
What the invoice id has nothing to do with anything
Sorry, but no. Since the invoice price helps to determine the dealership's margins, the invoice is highly useful information to a car buyer. Don't try to discourage him from looking at it.
If there is a number that you should almost always ignore, it's the MSRP, which is well above what you typically need to pay. There are very few cars that must be purchased for a substantial premium to invoice. For most cars, you can safely assume that you should be able to negotiate a price that is close to invoice.
The other advantage for a buyer to negotiate from invoice is that the numbers being tossed around in the discussion are lower. Lower is better; it's easier to get to a low price if your negotiations revolve around a low price, rather than a higher one.
There are many ways to negotiate and get basically the same result but in my experience on the sales side the people that start at a XXX above invoice always sell themselves short.
Better to figure out what the maximum amount you want to pay OTD and then using your best judgment undercut that by a certain amount.
Go into negotiations with that number in your head and try to get an offer out of the dealer. I will not normally give out the first number but in some instances I will. For example if a client lets me go through the whole sales process including but not limited too and not necessarily in this order...
1. Introduction 2. Collection of info 3. Walk around 4. Demo of the vehicle 5. Small talk at my desk...
without giving me some version of the, "whats your best price line?"
Then I will come out of the box with a very aggressive price. Depending on how I have sized up the people will depend on how much maneuvering room I give myself on the price.
Ought I to be touting/mentioning the rebuilt trans and engine to prospective buyers? I am not sure I can successfully pull off telling a "lie of omission" but if it is better left unsaid, I guess I'd better learn.
Oh, what happens when you still have an outstandin loan (less than car is worth, however). How does one arrange getting the title to the buyer if the loan must be settled? Sorry, I hadn't gone through this particular scenario, I figured I'd trade in to the dealer....
Would dealer provide trade in price for my car to actually trade it in when my ordered car arrives? Or will I be stuck selling it to them now?
New Honda is ordered/bought and all, and will supposedly be built sometime this month- they said it may arrive by thanksgiving but I am not holding them to that, I know many, many things happen to depend on keeping to that time frame. I can swing the financing all all without difference of trade in OK, just feel like I am doing this a bit differently than I'd counted on, that's all.
Honestly, despite all of its' recent troubles, I've loved this wagon. It's been a pleasure to drive, just not so hot to own, these last 2 or 3 months. I've maintained it religiously but...here I am nonetheless! No more VW's for me...I just cannot be stuck another time. Most recent time was with 2 kids on 95 at 10PM coming back from SC...not the best situation by any means. Again, fun to drive, not so terrrific to be financially responsible for lately..... :lemon:
Isell is 100% right. The market dictates the price of the car not what the dealer will make on it. Some cars can be had at below invoice, some at invoice some at higher than invoice some at MSRP and some at higher than MSRP. The trick is knowing what the price is for the car you want.
Go to any Chevy dealer and start negotiations on a Z06 Vette, they won't give you the time of day. Its all basic econ 101, its the laws of supply and demand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Some cars can be had at below invoice, some at invoice some at higher than invoice, some at MSRP and some at higher than MSRP.
In practice, most cars fall into the first two categories, and very few in the latter two categories.
Most cars are made in sufficient quantities that supply is more than adequate, and very few cars need to be purchased anywhere near MSRP. Most buyers who are paying MSRP or prices near that are not paying such high prices because the market necessitated it, but because they did a poor job of negotiating, so they paid more than they had to.
Attributing prices to the "market" is a bit vague, and overstates the degree to which supply and demand drives the average car purchase.
Your average uninformed customer has no real idea what the "market" is, and that person will negotiate from a position of weakness and pay a lot more than the "market" requires. As a result, some people will pay MSRP for the same car that someone else could have bought near invoice, give or take a couple of hundred dollars. That isn't about the "market", that's about the buyer not really knowing what's going on.
Go into negotiations with that number in your head and try to get an offer out of the dealer.
This is good advice, and a good post overall. I think this shows the disadvantages of naming a price very early, and then leaving if you don't get it (the Bobst method), namely this part:
Depending on how I have sized up the people will depend on how much maneuvering room I give myself on the price.
Good insight. There isn't a one-size-fits-all offer or counteroffer that you use on everyone, you vary it depending upon your read on the other party.
I faxed over the specs of a car I wanted to the sales managers and aksed for their best price. I also made it very clear that they were competing against other dealers. Isn't that having the market decide the price? The only reason I mentioned invoice pricing in my post was to give a benchmark for my deal that I got.
It cracks me up when people bring up the outdated Corolla argument. The current model is in it's 5th year and yet it's sales are up 25% this year. A lot of people other than me must be buying it.
We never respond to blast faxes. They have the absolutely lowest closing ratio of any opportunity type. Not that we get man blast faxes at my dealership but the handful that do come in just go in the shredder.
Well it is an outdated design. I can't remember the last time it has won a comparison test. Its not that it is a bad car it is just a boring A to B transportation car just like almost every other toyota made.
Your average uninformed customer has no real idea what the "market" is, and that person will negotiate from a position of weakness and pay a lot more than the "market" requires
To illustrate your point, I was helping a co-worker purchase a new vehicle. He absolutely HAD to have a Honda Odyssey with all of the "toys" including the DVD player. This is when the supply of each vehicle was very tight. He wanted me to spend all Saturday visiting the SIX Honda dealerships in the area. I declined saying that I dounted that there would be $200 difference between the dealers.
He came in the following Monday and let me know that "those guys REFUSED to negotiate". NO KIDDING!
He found a new job. I saw him about three months later. I asked him whetehr he bought another car. He spent about $1500 OVER book on a Chevy Impala ... and that was a car he could have negotiated on.
We never respond to blast faxes. They have the absolutely lowest closing ratio of any opportunity type.
Out of curiosity, if I drove past your dealership and had a specific question about a used car on your lot, would you respond ... or do I have to call in?
That happens all the time. I spend a lot of time outside at our dealership since I arrange all of the cars on our off-road displays.
Because of that I run into a lot of people that are truly just looking. They don't want to talk to a sales person and don't want to be bothered. I just wave and say hi and continue putting Rovers into impossible positions on our rock display.
If one of them has a question I answer it and then just hand them a card. I don't get any contact info or anything as that would just be more pressure then these people are looking for.
I sell cars to these people on a semi-regular basis and in fact I just sold a car to a guy I met in exactly this scenario. I met him about two months ago while I was setting up a display.
We talked for a few minutes about the vehicles and I gave him my card.
A couple of weeks ago he called out of the blue and set up an appointment. Over the next two weeks we hammered out the details and he picked his car up this past week.
I knew when I faxed my letters that only about 50% of the dealerships would respond and that is why I faxed 15 dealers.
I'm curious as to why you have such a low closing ratio. Were you giving your best price on these quotes or keeping some money in reserve for negotiating like you would with a walk in buyer? In my fax I made it very clear that the dealers first offer should be their best offer as I wasn't going to conduct endless back and forth negotiations.
I did make sure I called each dealer who responded and let them know where they stood and thanked them for giving me a quote. For the most part I dealt directly with sales managers and everyone of them was very courteous and professional.
As far as the Corolla - yes it not the newest thing on the road, but I was looking for a reliable vehicle to get me to work and back.
In practice, most cars fall into the first two categories, and very few in the latter two categories.
While most cars fall into the first two you would be surprised at how many cars go for at least near MSRP.
Attributing prices to the "market" is a bit vague, and overstates the degree to which supply and demand drives the average car purchase.
It really doesn't overstate the degree to which supply and demand drive prices. Of course there will be exceptions but those are just that exceptions.
Your average uninformed customer has no real idea what the "market" is, and that person will negotiate from a position of weakness and pay a lot more than the "market" requires.
That average "uninformed buyer" will be at a disadvantage no matter what they do. No matter what they will be negotiating from a position of weakness. The vast majority will either pay to much or walk away wondering why they couldn't buy their car. Only a small (lucky) percentage will get a decent price.
Fortunately these days anyone can be an informed buyer with just a little research.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I also had a co-worker who went to a dealership with his girlfriend (who had bought a car from same dealership a few years before) and told her it might take a while as he had to negotiate the price.
She looked at him and said " the price is right there on the sticker in the car window." he then asked her if she paid what was on the sticker when she bought her car and she said "of course, that was the price"
While most cars fall into the first two you would be surprised at how many cars go for at least near MSRP.
Just because Customer A buys a car at full sticker doesn't mean that he paid the "market price." He doesn't even know what the optimal price is, so he may have paid well above it. In his case, the "market" was irrelevant.
For your average car on your average lot, different buyers will pay vastly different prices because they don't know the market and/or they don't know how to negotiate.
It really doesn't overstate the degree to which supply and demand drive prices.
Sure it does. If the consumer has no idea what he should pay, then how did supply and demand affect his purchase price? He paid what he paid because he allowed himself to be misled, not because he followed the market's lead and made a rational, informed decision.
She looked at him and said " the price is right there on the sticker in the car window." he then asked her if she paid what was on the sticker when she bought her car and she said "of course, that was the price"
Of course, this is a great example of how supply and demand doesn't play much of a real-world role in individual transactions. Some can pay a lot, while others pay little for the very same items, just because of their lack of knowledge or their inability to negotiate.
Ought I to be touting/mentioning the rebuilt trans and engine to prospective buyers? I am not sure I can successfully pull off telling a "lie of omission" but if it is better left unsaid, I guess I'd better learn.
Yes, I would mention that the car has a rebuilt engine and transmission. Since you had this work done at a VW dealer is a plus compared to having it done by a garage down the street. I don't know if the warranty you received on the rebuilts is transferable but if it is, this is another plus.
Oh, what happens when you still have an outstandin loan (less than car is worth, however).
To sell your car to an individual you will have to pay it off and get the title. If you go to a dealer, they will handle the paperwork but you still have to pay it off. I'm sorry I can't give you any details on this because any time I ever sold a car, I sold it to an individual and I already had the title. I'm sure one of the guys in the biz can tell you how it's done if you decide to sell to a dealer.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You know, for a lot of people the fact that VW has a rebuilt engine and transmission is NOT a selling point and it could actually queer the sale.
I don't see why there would be a problem with a rebuilt especially since it was done by a VW dealer. Having a rebuilt is far better than trying to sell the car with the original engine and tranny that are in need of repair. You know that this is suicide.
I know I would question the quality of the rebuild.
I've had two cars that needed a transmission rebuilt and I never had a problem with either one till the day I sold them. In fact, I got more miles out of the rebuilts than I did the originals. Having receipts from the VW dealer should alleviate concerns about the rebuilt work unless that dealer is known to have a poor service dept.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The issue here is not what the average customer paid, but how they got to that price. And that average customer doesn't have a clue what the lowest price ought to be, so they pay more than that. Some, a lot more.
Obviously, a skilled salesperson knows how to negotiate so that they get each customer to pay as much as that customer can tolerate. Your job is to make sure that they pay that amount, while not allowing a doable deal walk out the door.
There is no single "market" price that everyone pays or knows to pay. If there was such a price, your services would not be needed at the dealership, because everyone would know the appropriate price, and they could simply hand their money over to a cashier who could ring up the purchase as if it was a gallon of ice cream. The ultimate sales price will largely be determined by the negotiating abilities and knowledge level of the buyer.
Comments
A dealer might sell a car at a lose for several reasons. One is to get rid of a car that has been on the lot to long (the longer it sits there the more it costs the dealer) or to make a set sales target are two good reasons to sell at a loss.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With just a cursory look, the only inventive on '07 Escalades in my region is the free NAV system promo Cadillac offers. That's probably worth somewhere around that $2,100 you described on '07 models. But, you only get that if the Escalade you're looking at has a NAV system. I believe the $5,000 Incentive you refer to is only on '06 models. A dealer could slap some GMID certificates (if they have any left) on one, too. In my area, GM isn't offering any 0% deals on '07s. They do have some finance deals on '07, but none of them are attractive enough that I couldn't beat the rate at my local credit union.
snake....are those '06 or '07 models?
Another offer I saw locally was $99 over invoice on any new, in stock Toyota Camry (limited time offer). But, that was only from one dealer. I would expect other Toyota dealerships in my area would match it, however. I doubt seriously that the offer includes hybrid Camries, either.
Point I was trying to make is there is no set amount above, or below invoice to offer that can be considered a hard and fast rule.
Without knowing the region, the specific car, time of year/month, dealership's stock status, etc., I don't know that any of us can say any amount offered will be reasonable to get a deal done.
'07's
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
People need to have reasonable expectations of what to expect at dealerships, and candor is often not one of those things. Dealers are not likely to confess to you that certain cars are dogs. They might, particularly if they think that telling you this will convince you to buy it, but they generally won't concede this in an honest fashion.
I don't fault them for withholding information like this, I would do the same if I was in their position, but the bottom line is that they often aren't going to give you the facts about anything that could substantially improve your negotiating position.
Of course some are more this way than others.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As far as Corolla's go. Sales are up 25% from previous year so I don't think they are having much problem moving these cars. I know that is not the case for every brand. Once the floor plan assistance money is used up, I could see how a dealer would want to move something that has been sitting around for a few months.
thats not the only reason. A dealer might take a $100 loss on a car for the simple reason that it has already been on the lot for 90 days and he doesn't want to keep it for another 90 days. Its sort of like take a $100 loss on it today or sell it 90 days later (incurring $300 in inventory costs) for $200 more.
As far as Corolla's go. Sales are up 25% from previous year so I don't think they are having much problem moving these cars.
Yes unless its that base model with the manual transmission in that awful color that reminds you of baby puke with the interior that looks like it was picked out by a color blind person that has no options.
Even with cars that sell well you may get that one combination that just won't sell.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nice resource to have.
And I have been able to get their invoice price to Jive with Edmunds, but then again I only checked it for a very few models.
Anyways its a good tool, but not the only one.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As far as a trade-in??? I don't know if you would get lowballed or whatever. I have not personally dealt with them (Florida Fitzmall). I do know that they do not have any ADM stickers and yes, it is a very good tool. A very good way to get a price start and to go armed with their print-out!
I think the price bump is reasonable for what you get, but the obviously recognize (and state on the web) that they sell a lot of cars to people from out of the area that aren't ever coming back for service.
I too use them, and autofair in NH, as quick reference points for pricing. I also live in between the 2, close enough to go to either place if the deal was right. But, I have always been able to get a comparable deal locally, so it was never worth the trip.
I know that Autofair touts how they pick you up at the airport (only a few miles away), and their dealer fees are very low, so they too must do a lot of out of town business.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
yeah I don't think their prices are any much lower than someone can get using some basic negotiation techniques. So unless your dealing with an expensive car that no one else is dealing with I don't think its worth the 800 mile trip. But as I said its just a tool.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not something I'd use for GM cars, as I qualify for GMS. The other manufacturer's models I can see where it would be helpful, though
Yeah I know I get the manufacturer discounts because I work in the industry. But still you still might be able to beat those.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I figure I can do the following with my passat wagon w/ 85K:
1)trade in at purchasing dealer, if $ is high enough
2)try to go to a VW dealer. But here's the glitch, my car just had rebuilt engine and trans put in by one of two local ones in Aug/sept, so am I likely to get a decent deal from them, I'm guessing not. The other dealer, let's just say they were awful every time I had to go in there (since EW contract required it be repaired at dealer where I bought it to cover cost)...that puts me at selling to a dealer downstate or out of state....
3)shop a few used car lots in area and see what they'd give me
Any ideas out there? I didn't quite think through this possibility and counted on negotiating the trade in along with my new car purchase but that day I was pressed for time. So should my going back to Honda dealer be first thing I try?
I got 6-8K estimate from someone I posted to earlier, which kinda scared me. Edmunds said between 11-13, depending on where I traded it in. Has high miles but decent extras like leather/heated seats, moonroof and upgraded monsoon stereo system.
Please help...everyone has held my hand this far and I hope you can direct me further!!! :confuse:
Thanks
That is doable plus depending on the state you are in it could save you a bit in taxes. You might want to get a few estiments (or offers to buy it) before trying to trade it in, carmax will do this and it will be good for a few days and (I think) 300 miles.
Just remember you will always get more by selling it yourself.
But here's the glitch, my car just had rebuilt engine and trans put in by one of two local ones in Aug/sept, so am I likely to get a decent deal from them, I'm guessing not.
You won't get a better deal with a rebuilt engine and tranny its still a Passat wagon with 85K miles.
As for Edmunds and Kelly Blue Book and references like that, take what they say with a grain of salt. People have a nasty habit of over estimating their cars with those tools. People have a tendency to rate their cars at a better condition than they really are, its natural to do that. Secondly some goodies that you like and would pay more for may not be what many others would consider valuable.
My advice is if you can but the new car without a trade in do so then sell your current car as a private party sale. If you can get around without a car for a short period try selling it before you take delivery (however this might backfire if for some reason you can't or won't take delivery as promised you could be at the mercy of the dealer).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What the invoice id has nothing to do with anything. do not assume there isfactory incentives to a dealer.
That 2007 Corolla is a perfect example of this. Although a good car, it is six year old body style and a car that isn't "hot" at all. I'm sure the dealers are being incentified on these. When the 2008 Corolla comes out, it'll be a different story!
Here’s my two cents worth.
I definitely feel that you should sell it yourself to an individual, if you are looking for the absolute best price. If you are looking for convenience, selling to a dealer or, worse yet a used car lot, (which IMO is akin to dealing with wolves) you have to be willing to forgo some dollars. Convenience always has a price but maybe you’re willing to pay this price. Your choice.
You said you just had a rebuilt engine and tranny installed, this combined with the car being in pretty good condition (you have to be VERY realistic here and not over value it, you MUST look at it with an objective eye because anybody who is going to buy it will surely do this), I would spend the money to have it detailed by a pro because this will show it off the best and get you your best price. Dealers do this all the time because it is profitable. If it wasn’t they wouldn’t do it.
Finally, because of the rebuilt engine and tranny, I would shoot for the high end of any category you feel it is in and work down from this if you have to.
You’re essentially the dealer now and you will have to negotiate as such.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Sorry, but no. Since the invoice price helps to determine the dealership's margins, the invoice is highly useful information to a car buyer. Don't try to discourage him from looking at it.
If there is a number that you should almost always ignore, it's the MSRP, which is well above what you typically need to pay. There are very few cars that must be purchased for a substantial premium to invoice. For most cars, you can safely assume that you should be able to negotiate a price that is close to invoice.
The other advantage for a buyer to negotiate from invoice is that the numbers being tossed around in the discussion are lower. Lower is better; it's easier to get to a low price if your negotiations revolve around a low price, rather than a higher one.
Better to figure out what the maximum amount you want to pay OTD and then using your best judgment undercut that by a certain amount.
Go into negotiations with that number in your head and try to get an offer out of the dealer. I will not normally give out the first number but in some instances I will. For example if a client lets me go through the whole sales process including but not limited too and not necessarily in this order...
1. Introduction
2. Collection of info
3. Walk around
4. Demo of the vehicle
5. Small talk at my desk...
without giving me some version of the, "whats your best price line?"
Then I will come out of the box with a very aggressive price. Depending on how I have sized up the people will depend on how much maneuvering room I give myself on the price.
If you want to buy a Z06 Corvette in my neck of the woods, you will be paying 10,000-15,000 ABOVE MSRP!
Is the car worth it? Not to me but for those who have to have one, that is what it'll take!
My point was when someone talks about how they bought a new car for invoice or less, there was a reason that happened!
Market conditions dictate prices.
Oh, what happens when you still have an outstandin loan (less than car is worth, however). How does one arrange getting the title to the buyer if the loan must be settled? Sorry, I hadn't gone through this particular scenario, I figured I'd trade in to the dealer....
Thanks again...
I know I would question the quality of the rebuild.
Other people would become very afraid of any car that would need this work done at relatively low mileage.
They may wonder who well the car was maintained for this to be necessary etc.
Being a VW product, I'm not surprised.
New Honda is ordered/bought and all, and will supposedly be built sometime this month- they said it may arrive by thanksgiving but I am not holding them to that, I know many, many things happen to depend on keeping to that time frame. I can swing the financing all all without difference of trade in OK, just feel like I am doing this a bit differently than I'd counted on, that's all.
thanks again.
Isell is 100% right. The market dictates the price of the car not what the dealer will make on it. Some cars can be had at below invoice, some at invoice some at higher than invoice some at MSRP and some at higher than MSRP. The trick is knowing what the price is for the car you want.
Go to any Chevy dealer and start negotiations on a Z06 Vette, they won't give you the time of day. Its all basic econ 101, its the laws of supply and demand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That would depend on the dealership and what paperwork you have already signed.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In practice, most cars fall into the first two categories, and very few in the latter two categories.
Most cars are made in sufficient quantities that supply is more than adequate, and very few cars need to be purchased anywhere near MSRP. Most buyers who are paying MSRP or prices near that are not paying such high prices because the market necessitated it, but because they did a poor job of negotiating, so they paid more than they had to.
Attributing prices to the "market" is a bit vague, and overstates the degree to which supply and demand drives the average car purchase.
Your average uninformed customer has no real idea what the "market" is, and that person will negotiate from a position of weakness and pay a lot more than the "market" requires. As a result, some people will pay MSRP for the same car that someone else could have bought near invoice, give or take a couple of hundred dollars. That isn't about the "market", that's about the buyer not really knowing what's going on.
This is good advice, and a good post overall. I think this shows the disadvantages of naming a price very early, and then leaving if you don't get it (the Bobst method), namely this part:
Depending on how I have sized up the people will depend on how much maneuvering room I give myself on the price.
Good insight. There isn't a one-size-fits-all offer or counteroffer that you use on everyone, you vary it depending upon your read on the other party.
It cracks me up when people bring up the outdated Corolla argument. The current model is in it's 5th year and yet it's sales are up 25% this year. A lot of people other than me must be buying it.
Well it is an outdated design. I can't remember the last time it has won a comparison test. Its not that it is a bad car it is just a boring A to B transportation car just like almost every other toyota made.
To illustrate your point, I was helping a co-worker purchase a new vehicle. He absolutely HAD to have a Honda Odyssey with all of the "toys" including the DVD player. This is when the supply of each vehicle was very tight. He wanted me to spend all Saturday visiting the SIX Honda dealerships in the area. I declined saying that I dounted that there would be $200 difference between the dealers.
He came in the following Monday and let me know that "those guys REFUSED to negotiate". NO KIDDING!
He found a new job. I saw him about three months later. I asked him whetehr he bought another car. He spent about $1500 OVER book on a Chevy Impala ... and that was a car he could have negotiated on.
Egads.
Out of curiosity, if I drove past your dealership and had a specific question about a used car on your lot, would you respond ... or do I have to call in?
That happens all the time. I spend a lot of time outside at our dealership since I arrange all of the cars on our off-road displays.
Because of that I run into a lot of people that are truly just looking. They don't want to talk to a sales person and don't want to be bothered. I just wave and say hi and continue putting Rovers into impossible positions on our rock display.
If one of them has a question I answer it and then just hand them a card. I don't get any contact info or anything as that would just be more pressure then these people are looking for.
I sell cars to these people on a semi-regular basis and in fact I just sold a car to a guy I met in exactly this scenario. I met him about two months ago while I was setting up a display.
We talked for a few minutes about the vehicles and I gave him my card.
A couple of weeks ago he called out of the blue and set up an appointment. Over the next two weeks we hammered out the details and he picked his car up this past week.
I'm curious as to why you have such a low closing ratio. Were you giving your best price on these quotes or keeping some money in reserve for negotiating like you would with a walk in buyer? In my fax I made it very clear that the dealers first offer should be their best offer as I wasn't going to conduct endless back and forth negotiations.
I did make sure I called each dealer who responded and let them know where they stood and thanked them for giving me a quote. For the most part I dealt directly with sales managers and everyone of them was very courteous and professional.
As far as the Corolla - yes it not the newest thing on the road, but I was looking for a reliable vehicle to get me to work and back.
While most cars fall into the first two you would be surprised at how many cars go for at least near MSRP.
Attributing prices to the "market" is a bit vague, and overstates the degree to which supply and demand drives the average car purchase.
It really doesn't overstate the degree to which supply and demand drive prices. Of course there will be exceptions but those are just that exceptions.
Your average uninformed customer has no real idea what the "market" is, and that person will negotiate from a position of weakness and pay a lot more than the "market" requires.
That average "uninformed buyer" will be at a disadvantage no matter what they do. No matter what they will be negotiating from a position of weakness. The vast majority will either pay to much or walk away wondering why they couldn't buy their car. Only a small (lucky) percentage will get a decent price.
Fortunately these days anyone can be an informed buyer with just a little research.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
She looked at him and said " the price is right there on the sticker in the car window." he then asked her if she paid what was on the sticker when she bought her car and she said "of course, that was the price"
OUCH!!!!!
Just because Customer A buys a car at full sticker doesn't mean that he paid the "market price." He doesn't even know what the optimal price is, so he may have paid well above it. In his case, the "market" was irrelevant.
For your average car on your average lot, different buyers will pay vastly different prices because they don't know the market and/or they don't know how to negotiate.
It really doesn't overstate the degree to which supply and demand drive prices.
Sure it does. If the consumer has no idea what he should pay, then how did supply and demand affect his purchase price? He paid what he paid because he allowed himself to be misled, not because he followed the market's lead and made a rational, informed decision.
Of course, this is a great example of how supply and demand doesn't play much of a real-world role in individual transactions. Some can pay a lot, while others pay little for the very same items, just because of their lack of knowledge or their inability to negotiate.
Yes, I would mention that the car has a rebuilt engine and transmission. Since you had this work done at a VW dealer is a plus compared to having it done by a garage down the street. I don't know if the warranty you received on the rebuilts is transferable but if it is, this is another plus.
Oh, what happens when you still have an outstandin loan (less than car is worth, however).
To sell your car to an individual you will have to pay it off and get the title. If you go to a dealer, they will handle the paperwork but you still have to pay it off. I'm sorry I can't give you any details on this because any time I ever sold a car, I sold it to an individual and I already had the title. I'm sure one of the guys in the biz can tell you how it's done if you decide to sell to a dealer.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I don't see why there would be a problem with a rebuilt especially since it was done by a VW dealer. Having a rebuilt is far better than trying to sell the car with the original engine and tranny that are in need of repair. You know that this is suicide.
I know I would question the quality of the rebuild.
I've had two cars that needed a transmission rebuilt and I never had a problem with either one till the day I sold them. In fact, I got more miles out of the rebuilts than I did the originals. Having receipts from the VW dealer should alleviate concerns about the rebuilt work unless that dealer is known to have a poor service dept.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Cars sell for what the market dictates. It's also possible Toyota is dumping cars (again) to the rental companies like they do?
I'm not disputing that.
The issue here is not what the average customer paid, but how they got to that price. And that average customer doesn't have a clue what the lowest price ought to be, so they pay more than that. Some, a lot more.
Obviously, a skilled salesperson knows how to negotiate so that they get each customer to pay as much as that customer can tolerate. Your job is to make sure that they pay that amount, while not allowing a doable deal walk out the door.
There is no single "market" price that everyone pays or knows to pay. If there was such a price, your services would not be needed at the dealership, because everyone would know the appropriate price, and they could simply hand their money over to a cashier who could ring up the purchase as if it was a gallon of ice cream. The ultimate sales price will largely be determined by the negotiating abilities and knowledge level of the buyer.