Lexus RX 400h and 450h

markatty

The EPA calculates fuel use by looking at the amount of carbon coming out of the exhaust. They do not look at the actual amount of fuel consumed. While everyone agrees that the test is flawed (see last weeks WSJ article) it is particularly flawed for a hybrid where power is also coming from a battery with no standards as to state of charge etc. Having said that, my trip computer shows my 400 consistently getting 26.5 to 28 mpg on a 35 mile commute that is 90% highway at an average speed of 65 - 70 mph.

As to warranties my dealer told me that when my present warranty expired, that they would offer me the extended warranty at whatever price they were then offering the extended warranty to new car buyers. As they put it I could lock in today's price or wait and see.

[To the HOSTS] Hosting is a particularly thankless job, I know, I've done it, but to try to exclude discussion here of one of the main reasons that people buy an RX-400h, would be like telling Porsche owners they have to go to another forum to discuss how their cars handle. If these boards were less clunky and didn't take so much clicking and scrolling, having multiple threads might be fine, (The other major Lexus discussion site does this better.) but personally I don't want to monitor multiple discussions. What I like about this group is I can see all the discussion at once.

rocky7

Lexus is hiding behind the EPA numbers by not quoting their own. The EPA estimated MPG rating is 31 City/27 Highway.

We never have gotten on our 400h much over 26 on the highway . In city driving were never getting much over 29, not 31.

Mercedes mileage claims on our ML matched exactly what they said we would get. 14 in the city and 19 on the highway.

I think Lexus could learn something about honesty for Mercedes.

maxhonda99

Reality check:

EPA estimates on window stickers are exactly what the EPA gets by testing cars. The automakers don't have a say in what numbers go on the window sticker.

Your ML just matches the EPA numbers.

My uncles LS400 crushes EPA highway estimates.

cyclone4

I beg to differ on your assessment. Your statement seems ludicrous to me. Are you trying to say that there is some sort of conspiracy going on? Do you think that Lexus is getting a break from the EPA? No way Jose! Besides, I see no problem whatsoever with the EPA estimates for the 400h. One can even do better than 31 in the city as long as there are not too many 3-5 minute trips. And it seems to me that most folks are getting very close (some a bit below & some a bit above) to the EPA estimate of 27 mpg on the highway.

falconone

Lexus can't publish anything else but results from the EPA. I believe their methods for testing are way outdated and especially for hybrids. Do some research and you'll find this out.

rocky7

The point is that people are whining that the 400h isn't getting exactly what the publish EPA figure suggest they should be. It's common knowledge that the way EPA test doesen't translate to actual miledge, even if you are only using it for comparison purposes.

Toyota as far back as two years ago asked the EPA to come up with a different test for hybrids because the testing they did suggested more miledge than hybrids actually deliverd than the current method for non hybrid vehicles.

Nevertheless even though the ML EPA figures come in closer to actual because it's not a hybrid, the 400h is getting much better hwy and significanlty better city miledge than the ML, and with regular gas even though it's not measuring up to EPA #.

wwest

The manufacturers LOVE those EPA MPG over-statements.

They would be squealing like stuffed pigs if the EPA numbers were as consistently low as they are now high.

cyclone4

My point above is that I dispute your claim that, at least in the case of the RX400h, the EPA is too high on the mpg estimates. Most here, including myself, have been pleasantly surprised by the gas mileage they are getting. It appears that from reading the various posts, the EPA is pretty much on the money with the 400h gas mileage estimates. I don't know why you keep insisting that they are way off. If anything, as I stated on several occasions now, as long as one does not take numerous 3-5 minute trips, one can surpass the EPA estimate for city driving on the 400h.

wwest

I have no argument, and have not argued, that the city stop and go mileage will not be stellar.

My questioning has been regarding the hwy cruise mileage where there is NO ability to recover inertial energy via regenerative braking. My 2001 AWD Rx300 has gotten ~20MPG for long trips at 75MPH+. I would expect the RX400h to do slightly better since it does not need to use the rear electric motor when cruising and thereby should be more equivalent to the MPG of the FWD RX300.

The RX400h clearly weighs more that my AWD RX300, seems to have an equivalent Cd and uses 225mm tread width.

I once drove our 2003 Prius to Portland and back, ~300 RT, and I don't today remember the exact mileage achieved but I know I came away convinced that an equivalent gas only car would do better, easily.

But again, the 2003 has averaged ~42MPG over its 15,000 or so miles and that is pretty impressive for it primarily city only duty.

falconone

42 is pretty good for city. I can't imagine a gas equiv on the market today that can achieve that number. Maybe the Civic with the CVT is close. I still think that the RH owners are going to be please with their city numbers once their engines break in.

wwest

I have seen not a few comments regarding the feeling that the ICE starts up too soon are runs too often.

It may be because you have turned on the A/C, inadvertently.

And yes, I know that the A/C compressor is run by the electrics.

But.

If the climate control is on and you haven't had the dealer set the c-best options "correctly" the A/C will run constantly and the Denso climate control design REQUIRES that the air cooled by the A/C be reheated via a portion of it passing through the heater core.

The airflow may be cooled to as low as 35F as it passes through the A/C evaporator and in order to prevent discomfort to the passengers it is then reheated to something closer to your comfort level. That reheat cycle is based on the heater core being maintained at something very close to 180F.

I seem to remember that the newer Prius models have a c-best option wherein the A/C compressor is only run to maintain the exit airflow at or very near your temperature setpoint. The reheat cycle is not required and the A/C compressor runs a lot less often resulting in an improvement in MPG.

Would some one please let me know if this does apply to the RX400h.

markrogo

... and told me "any day now"....

I am very, very, very, very excited...

I've now spotted two on the road around me.

Ooooooh!

rwe

To avoid what happened with the Prius EPA numbers (way above real world) Lexus had the EPA lower their numbers to what Lexus themselves actually felt the car would achieve. The result was the 31/27 rating which is actually what is happening.
I,m a Lexus salesperson and I attended the Launch Seminar and we spent 2 days talking about lowering peoples expectations regarding fuel consumption. I've delivered 19 Hybrids to date and all my clients are extremely satisified not only with the mileage but especially the added performance.If anyone out there can get one of these unique vehicles for the list price considering the resale it is MUCH cheaper to own than a comparable RX330.Forget about the better mileage these cars will only continue to be sought after.

sinepman

My friend had a deposit on the RH and got a refund. He loved the car but even the dealer suggested he get the normal RX. He said he could give him an RX for a few bucks above tissue. That means you're saving close to 9 grand. The performance was similar tho the RH is a little faster off the line. I really like hybrids, but in this iteration, I can't see the advantage.

dylan hixon

I won't rehash all of the other advantages that close the price gap, but remember resale value. I leased for 3 years, and was given a 64% residual value I think, versus something like 56% for a 330. That is nearly 10% percent of the value of the car.

kaperino

Just picked up my 400h yesterday. Was told the wait would be 4 to 12 weeks by one Atlanta dealership, but found one in two days in another. Luck of the draw. I went for a level one in black and ivory. Sweet! You'll love it!

markrogo

... and I'm delighted so far BUT ...

... my windshield is optically distorted and will need to be replaced...

... this is very disappointing ...

pinzabu

Hi everyone,

Question - is there a way to type in directly on the 400h the name with a phone number in phone book WITHOUT using BT.

Background - I have a HP Ipaq 6315 with tmobile, after many hours and attempts have finally gotten BT to work for phone calls with the 400h. I would like to be able to 'type' in the name information that goes with the 4 one touch numbers I have entered - via incoming/outcoming, but do not see how to do that. It will take a number of fixes, ie many hours of finding the software online, as I have yet to find to get a BT transfer of my ipaq phone book and all I really need are about a dozen one touch numbers and names.

TIA Lydia

wwest

In the case of the ICE "KW" those numbers are derived from a computation based on the engine RPM and throttle opening, there is no "sensor" to indicate engine KW directly. Same with the electrics, voltage times current equals power = KW.

If the engine isn't performing up to "snuff" you won't know it from the gauge/display, same with the electrics. With the electrics, as the magnetism in the PM decays the expended KW go up to make up the loss.

Back to MPG!

dylan hixon

Yes, it is the power the engine THINKS that it is sendinding to the wheels based on operating condition. However, I believe that fuel and air flow measurements are in that calculation, so you could diagnose some types of problems. This gauge has only three numbers on the scale, 0, 100, 200. It is so rough as to be almost qualitative. The new GS hybrid has a kW gauge which goes from -50kW to +275kW with a nice clean scale numbered every 50, major ticks at 25, minor ticks at 5kW (see Lexus hybrid GS page). That would be a lot more useful.

Power output information, and much much more data, is available through the OBD II port using a scanner, PDA or laptop. I am researching now to try to find a scanner which can read the hybrid specific data, like speed of MG1 and MG2, current flows, et cetera. If anyone knows of a scanner that works on the 400h say so.

wwest

One would assume that absent an engine diagnostic the fuel/air mixture ratio is correct so it would normally be fully valid to only use RPM and throttle opening in the actual calculation/computation.

hwy99

Hi, can you tell me how long it has been since you'd placed that initial deposit for your vehicle. I've signed up for one back in Jan. '05 at my local dealership in B.C., Canada and all the sales people can comment is that " it wouldn't be too long now !?"

dylan hixon

Fuel is matched to airflow, which is measured by the MAF sensor. If max airflow is reduced, due to flow problems, or heat problems, the ECU would know it was not delivering peak fuel and presumably reflect that.

dylan hixon

I had a chance this morning to take an extended drive at 55mph. It was early Sunday morning (no traffic), cool and humid for good altitude density air, but lots of hills up and down, although no net altitude change. I reset the consumption monitor on the highway, and drove for 51 miles with the cruise set a 55. This is the longest time I have driven 55 since I was 16. I passed only 2 people, and one passed me back. At the end of the trip, the display read 30.0 MPG. I then drove slowly around town for 10 minutes, and the display got up to 32+. My car only has 600 miles on it, and I am using 89 gas. I did not refuel to check the number.

wwest

check the "fuel" level of the batteries both before and after the drive to know if the refill computation is valid.

erno

I just got my RX400h on monday and I do love the way the car drives. However, I am only getting an average 22.5 mpg on 260 miles so far. I've been driving like a granny trying to max out the mpgs but it doesn't seem to want to go up any higher. Is this just the breakin period or is something wrong with my hybrid tuning?

Erno

rx400_owner

emo, Did you reset the mileage meter when you got the car? Mine started out with a pretty low number from the prep done by the mechanic. Once I reset that, I got about 25 mpg on our first tank. That included a lot of short drives. Since then it has been going up. On our third tank, we got 27 mpg (from both the mileage monitor and computation on the gas purchase).

Short drives do make a significant difference on the mileage and now with the weather warming up so does the air conditioner running a lot. I went on a longer drive (25 minutes each way) yesterday. In the morning, I got 27 mpg on the freeway (~65 mph) and over 31 mpg on the city drive (though that part was too short to be sure about the number). On the way back in the afternoon the air conditioning was running hard and we got about 25.5 mpg on the freeway.

rx400_owner

check the "fuel" level of the batteries both before and after the drive to know if the refill computation is valid.

wwest, Most of the time the car seems to keep the battery at a pretty stable fill level - going down one bar and back. The only time I see big enough deviations to cause much change in an mpg is when doing a lot of idling (in stop and go traffic or when I sat parked playing with the nav) when it will let the battery charge go down even into the purple range or going down hill a long ways when it will let the battery get all the way full (at least according to the bars).

In the long drive Dylan described, I doubt that the battery fill level would change the mileage. Based on some rough calculations, I think the one bar that the battery fluctuates around represents about enough energy for about 1.5 miles of driving.

rx400_owner

I forgot to mention - "driving like a granny" if you mean very slow acceleration doesn't seem to help mileage much. Anticipating stops to brake gently enough to get mostly regeneration does help. One doesn't want to do jack rabbit starts, but a normal acceleration like what one would use in a non-hybrid seems to give as good mpg reading as trying to start very slowly.

dylan hixon

Yes, the batteries do not store too much energy, their primary benefit is the smoothing effect of power use.

I have not been able to find the spec on the 400h's battery capacity, but here is a quick calculation off the top of my head, check me on the math and assumptions.

Gasoline has an energy density of 13,000 Wh/kg, whereas NiMH batteries hold 80 Wh/kg. Say 1/3 of the gasoline's energy gets to the wheels, but 90% of the batteries'. That translates to a 60 to 1 ratio of energy to the wheels per unit mass, gasoline versus battery. I am guessing the 400h has 330bs of actual batteries, 150kg. That would be the equivalent, in useful energy terms, of 0.9 gals of gas, or about 1/10th gal per bar. Nearly full batteries (8 bars) to nearly empty (2 bars) could be about 1/2 a gallon of gasoline equivalent.

That indicates 2.5 miles per bar.

While I am at it, one 50Wh green "E" of regeneration is the equivalent .004 gals of gasoline in tha tank, or 1/10th of a mile. This is consistent with a calculation I saw for a Prius that 4-6 green cars give you one free mile.

Anyway, useful battery capacity is still less than 5% of the fuel tank at most, not enough to change MPG for a whole tank much, even if you do fill up with the battery full, and refuel with the battery empty. It would potentially make a difference on a small fillup though. Something to keep in mind.

I will refine this calculation when I have some time, and post if it changes.

I am however inspired to record battery state of charge on my gasoline consumption logs. Perhaps a battery corrected actual would be closer to the computed number?

rx400_owner

The spec for battery capacity is in the manual. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but from memory it is 6.5 kWh which is about 81 kg figuring 80 Wh/kg a little more than half what you thought it might be.

skyfish400h

The battery charge cannot fluxuate very much by design. It's important to keep the battery from wide swings in charge in order to maintain the life of the battery.

I would not waste time figuring out what effect the charge level has on MPG because it will be in the noise.

wwest

Haven't I read somewhere that if you continually recharge a battery before it's almost fully discharged it "forgets" its actual capacity? Say recharging at 20% discharge continuously and you end up over time with a battery that only has that 20% capacity?

stevedebi

"Haven't I read somewhere that if you continually recharge a battery before it's almost fully discharged it "forgets" its actual capacity? Say recharging at 20% discharge continuously and you end up over time with a battery that only has that 20% capacity?"

That is for NiCad batteries, the Prius uses NiMh, which are not supposed to have this "memory" characteristic.

rx400_owner

Even for NiCad batteries, according to a reviewed technical paper I read years ago, the memory problem is largely a myth. It does have a minor basis in fact but the circumstances don't apply to the way NiCads are used in most consumer devices.

The memory effect was a problem for NiCads in some satellites with a very constant drain and a very constant charging conditions from their solar cells as they orbited so that many cycles repeated charging and discharging to the same level. Then if something unusual happened and they had to do a deeper discharge they didn't accomodate it well. It hasn't been shown to occur when the batteries are used with a more variable charge and discharge cycle such as in most consumer use. The conditions to produce the memory effect are pretty exact and not easy to reproduce.

What generally kills NiCads is poor chargers that over charge the things. This is especially bad if they over charge quickly heating the battery, but even the trickle chargers that slowly overcharge cause damage so that the batteries wear out. The only reason it is a good idea to run NiCads well down before charging is that then you know about how long they have to charge and, if you diconnect the dumb trickle charger when that time is up, you minimize the overcharging.

The NiCads I have for our handi-talkies have a very good smart charger that treats them well and they have lasted a long time despite often being partially discharged when we throw them in the charger.

xena

I want to add XM Radio to my Rx400. Any suggestions on how to mount it and where? Very different dash/console from my 1999 Rx300.

dylan hixon

I just looked up the battery pack in the owners manual, and it is listed at 6.5Ah, 288V. That is basically the size of the Prius' pack! (6.5Ah, 272V) So that is 1.9kWh, or only 25kg of battery. Reduce everything I said before to 1/6th. That does put the battery energy below the noise for MPG calculations. The useable capacity of the battery pack (50%) will drive you just a few miles. That is more in line with what I observe. I will still post a more complete calculation. Sorry about the error, I assumed the extra couple of hundred pounds the car had over the 330 was mostly batteries.

It actually makes the MPG performance of the car more impressive that the battery pack is so small.For comparison, the GM EV1 NiMH had 26.2kWh of battery capacity.

dylan hixon

Coastal tech has a mod they do to the Prius that lets you view and operate XM with the touchscreen. I don't know if it works on the 400h.

http://www.coastaletech.com/xm_radio_in_prius.htm

fizban

Check with your dealer before doing any add-ons. Make sure they don't void your warrantee. (The word from Toyota is "No after-factory add-ons!")

ameredith

I'm waiting for a Hybird Highlander, can't quite afford the 400h. And I've been reading this forum to see how the 400h is doing. All I would like to know is the MPG on the 400h driving it normally, just like we drive our existing cars. I believe that 21-29+ MPG is great for the V8 performance you get. I would like to see if any other V8's even get close.

rocky7

After 700 miles were getting 28 mpg in city. Haven't really been on Hwy yet for more than a few miles.

mirex

What is the advantage of the 18-in alloy wheels with 235/55VR18 all-season tires on the RX400h over the 17 x 6.5-in alloy wheels with 225/65SR17 all-season steel-belted radial tires on the RX300?

cablue

I talked two Lexus dealers about getting XM radio and both said they would install it at the dealership. They said all Lexus models can have XM installed there. Also, for anyone concerned about the space inside the 400h, my husband is 6'6". I needed to see if he could fit before I could seriously consider this car. He sat in the front passenger seat to where he was comfortable, then he got out and sat directly behind that seat in the back and also fit comfortably (relatively speaking). Being that tall, not many cars are completely comfortable. So, two 6'6" people can sit one in front of the other in that car. It's deceptive how much space is inside.

markrogo

... I wonder if it's the same thing as the hack where it goes onto the screen like that. I'd be awfully tempted.

The navigation hack to remove the agreement and the lockout along with rapid reversibility looks amazing, though. I hope that Prius' sites accessories will work on the RX.

Meantime, I gotta say the car has an amazing feel to me. It's so smooth and quiet, it feels like what a big Mercedes feels like... You can drive it like you mean it, but protect yourself from what's outside.

As always -- for me at least -- the automatic climate control is impenetrable. We had the A/C on yesterday and no matter how high we adjusted the temp upward, it remained freezing. So we shut it off and no matter how low we put the temp it remained stifling. Alas.

rx400_owner

The worst mileage I've seen except for very short cold engine trips is 25 mpg. I think you would have to work at it to get worse than this. (By very short I mean a mile or two.)

skyfish400h

The advantage is that the 18 in wheels are designed for the 400h and the 17 in designed for the 300. These vehicles are different weights and towing capacities and most importantly they have vastly different amounts of torque applied to them (same for the 330 vs 400h wheels, even tho they both come in the 18 in size).

In general, the 17 vs 18 comes down to handling and road feel. The 17s are going to be a softer ride with less road feel (and possibly less noise) than the 18s for a given set up. And the 17 will not handle as well as the 18 because there is more sidewall to flex in the turns.

Bottom line on the 400h is stick to the OEM wheels and tire size. If you must change them, I would only go for aftermarket rims that explicitly state they will work on the 400h... but I don't think you will find that.

michael2003

Where did you find a hack to disable the agreement and lockout?

mirex

Thanks for the answer. I have no intention of changing any Lexus OEMs, but was curious as to why the 18-in. You have explained it well.

vdoc

RE: Lease
I have mine on a 48 month and it's costing me 800 including tax. I would guess that a 36 month would be around 850, give or take.

shackman

RE:Lease
I was quoted $835/mo for 35 months with $1500 down and 15,000 miles per year for my Lexus RX 400h. My car is due June 15th if all goes well.