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Lexus RX 400h and 450h

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  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    VAT tax brings the cost to 54,000 Euroes, about equal to the value of the dollar before BUSH.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 4,098
    "For those that think Toyota is a smart automaker. This RX400h is not a smart move. For the 20% that do go out in the back country with their new toy and burn up the hybrid system, Lexus will have to foot the bill."

    Nope, the electric motors simply stop working until they cool down, leaving the vehicle without power to the rear wheels. I don't think it can be damaged.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,146
    Nope, the electric motors simply stop working until they cool down, leaving the vehicle without power to the rear wheels. I don't think it can be damaged.

    How about all the electronics, SCRs that get overloaded in the process of trying to get out of a mud hole? I think if all this is true that Lexus will need a disclaimer in their warranty. It still does not make any sense to build a vehicle with high clearance and AWD that cannot go through a creek or mud hole or out in the loose sand.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"It still does not make any sense to build a vehicle with high clearance and AWD that cannot go through a creek or mud hole or out in the loose sand.-"end quote

    Lexus has not said this at all. They have said "offroading is discouraged." Any vehicle that can clear the water can go "through a creek or a mud hole." I had a 1974 Dodge Colt 2WD that had a high ground clearance and we called it "The Tank" because it could go basically anywhere I tried to drive it.

    Lexus knows the stats of how many owners of RX300s take them offroad. They are not stupid, but are the "most profitable" company in their peer group.

    Lots of AWD "crossover" or smaller SUVs (which are not built for offroading) can have problems in sand ( I have owned and AWD CR-V which was not great in sand and have seen other small CUVs stuck in sand ) which is nothing related to hybrid technology at all.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,146
    I have owned and AWD CR-V which was not great in sand and have seen other small CUVs stuck in sand ) which is nothing related to hybrid technology at all.

    I'm following you there. I got stuck the first day I bought my new Toyota Land Cruiser in 1964. That happens. I did not hurt it only got stuck. We are talking about a $50k-$60k AWD vehicle that has some serious limitations. I just don't get it. They are building military hybrids that I am sure don't burn up if you try to go through a stretch of muddy road. I kind of had hopes for the Highlander Hybrid. Looks like that one is off the list also...
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Give it a rest with this getting stuck in the mud stuff. You keep saying it over and over, but let's get real. 99% of RX owners stay on pavement or some gravel roads 100% of the time.

    The fact that it can not go off-roading means nothing!
  • I have to agree. When it comes to any SUV that is in a price bracket that the 400H is in owners don't spend that kind of cash and turn around and shoot through the river and up into the rockies & woods. As a matter of fact, the last time I looked I didn't see any HUMMERS on the trail lately. They're big. They're bulky. They're snazzy. They may even be capable of off roading BUT the owners have an investment and most of them probably don't even have a desire to "DO THE DEW"
    Culliganman (Prius off-road?...Nah!!)
  • The RX is a station wagon, but with good ground clearance, lots of space, good visibility, and AWD for better traction in normal driving. Not an off road vehicle. However, if the rear motor overheats and shuts off, the worst thing that can happen is the 400h becomes a front wheel drive vehicle.

    There is also the small matter that this thing nearly doubles the fuel efficiency of comparable AWD V8 luxury sport SUV's, there has to be some compromise.

    Remember when all family cars were station wagons? Huge, rear wheel drive sleds on skinny, bias ply tires? People still went camping. The 400h is far superior to those, even though it is no Land Cruiser.

    AWD does not mean off road, if you like to off road, do not buy a 400h, or any AWD pseudo SUV or car, buy a Toyota land cruiser or a Land Rover disco. Vehicle makers are discovering the benefits of AWD for on road driving. Even the Ford Taurus replacement will be offered with AWD.
  • The RX reeks of luxury, room, ride quality, tech features, V8-like power (Hybrid), economy (Hybrid), quality, versatility, resale value, beauty, panache, quietness, eco-friendliness (ULEV II), durability, and crash-worthiness.

    If you don't like it, find something better!

    Fat chance.

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,146
    The RX reeks of luxury, room, ride quality, tech features,

    Hopefully they have gotten the Noise, brakes & transmission issues resolved from the earlier RX300/RX330 models. If I wanted an SUV I would not buy a Lexus. If I wanted all the niceties you mentioned I might buy an LS430. Probably would buy the E320 CDI, use biodiesel and really contribute to the efforts that the Hybrids are supposed to address and are missing.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    Hejo,

    Your report really intrigues me. You state that "other test drivers confirmed that 45 mpg can be achieved even under difficult conditions (stop and go, cities, etc.)". This has been my thinking all along. i.e. If a driver is careful & does not "floor" the accelerator in city driving, then the gas mileage will be very surprisingly good. Am I correct in my thinking?

    By the way, after talking to my dealer earlier this week, about the availability of the laser cruise control option for the RX400h, they told me that it is NOT available for the RX400h in spite of what New Car Test Drive reported on their review. To me this is a major mistake by Lexus. Once one has driven a vehicle with this option, one never wants to do without it. I have again encouraged my dealer to strongly enforce upon Lexus that they should reconsider this & include it as an option. The dealer promised me that they would do so at a conference coming up in a couple weeks.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 4,098
    "How about all the electronics, SCRs that get overloaded in the process of trying to get out of a mud hole?"

    The electronics will not overheat. Let me restate what I said before: The temperature sensors will note that the electric motors are getting too hot and will shut down the motors. End of story. The whole point is to shut them down before they fail.

    However, this is cold comfort to the person stuck in muddy off road conditions without traction to all wheels (until everything cools off).
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "If I wanted an SUV I would not buy a Lexus."

    Then why do you lurk on this board? Let's see, the RX is sort of a SUV and it's a Lexus. And you don't want a SUV that is a Lexus. huh.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,146
    Then why do you lurk on this board?

    Same reason you do, Curiosity. Actually I was intrigued with the whole hybrid concept until all the truth started surfacing. I've test driven them, have you? I even followed an RX400h in Hawaii last September to get a closer look. No one on the Big Island would want one, too many bad roads. I spend more time on dirty, muddy roads looking at property than I do on pavement. No wannabe SUV/CUV would survive..
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Actually I was intrigued with the whole hybrid concept until all the truth started surfacing."

    What was the big conspiracy? That it's rear motors will shut off if they overheat?? Wow! Lexus really lied to you!

    "I spend more time on dirty, muddy roads looking at property than I do on pavement."

    Well, does everyone spend more time on dirty, muddy roads? Not quite. As I said before 99% of RX owners probably spend 100% of their time on pavement. ANd if you have seen overall stats, something like 80% of total SUV buyers never go off-road and something like 95% of luxury SUV buyers never go off-road.

    And since you have known now for quite some time that it can't fit your lifestyle, isn't it time you got over the RX400h's limitations(that is limitations to you) and moved on? You even said you don't like the RX to begin with(exterior style), so why even bother with it?

    "No wannabe SUV/CUV would survive.. "

    The RX has been a wannabe SUV for the last 7 years. Did you need to drive the RX400h to figure that out? The RX was originally and is still designed for the way 99% of luxury SUV buyers actually drive their vehicles. That is why it is soo successful.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Gagrice doesn't like Lexus and he sure as heck doesn't like hybrids put those two together and the 400h will go over like a led balloon according to him, me thinks there are a significant number of people here in the states that want to step up to the plate without buying a lesser vehicle and most of those people don't spend much time on muddy roads.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,146
    And since you have known now for quite some time that it can't fit your lifestyle

    I assume you missed my earlier posts. I was watching the RX400h after I found that the Highlander was basically the same frame with more room and much nicer looks. Now the the RX400h has turned into a disappointment that also means the Hybrid Highlander will suffer the same lack of ability. I will have to keep looking, my Suburban only has another 10-15 years of usable life left in it.

    PS
    I find your 99% of high end SUV owners never going off the pavement as totally ludicrous.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Cyclone4:

    Your report really intrigues me. You state that "other test drivers confirmed that 45 mpg can be achieved even under difficult conditions (stop and go, cities, etc.)". This has been my thinking all along. i.e. If a driver is careful & does not "floor" the accelerator in city driving, then the gas mileage will be very surprisingly good. Am I correct in my thinking?

    Not even close. Achieving a 50% increase above EPA estimates no matter city/highway is not an easy task and in an HSD equipped Hybrid, it will be even tougher. Anyone can drive a game gauged equipped automobile and peg the Instantaneous for a block, two, a mile, down a hill, etc. but for an entire tank or a lifetime? You are asking for a best tank from a hypermiler under very specific and advantageous conditions and setup. The average driver will never even come close.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Is why I bought the AWD RX300, added 1.5" wheel spacers, 17x8 wheels, all around to provide rear suspension clearance so I could safely use snowchains when and if the time came.

    The "time" was last January.

    By you measure ejection seats are totally useless in fighter jets because they almost NEVER get used.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    Thanks for the reply xcel. So, in your estimation, how good of a gas mileage can a careful driver get in city driving? Also, I would still like to hear from Hejo to get more insight on this "45 mpg".
  • hejohejo Posts: 4
    I hope i did not make a mistake in calculating :
    4.54liter= 1 gallon
    1.6km = 1 mile
    7l/100km = 0.024g/mile
    ??

    6-7l/100km is the measured, believable minimum fuel consumption by experience of people driving the 400h Prototype.
    Lexus is promising 8.1l/100km as an average.
    This is extremely low for German conditions where the methods to measure are surely influenced by the absence of a gerenal speed limit.
    If i drive my Opel 3l 200hp 1/3 highway = 180 km/h
    1/3 outside cities = 80-90 km/h and
    1/3 inside cities i get a fuel consumption of about 11l/100km.
    If i drive extremely careful = not more than 120 km/h on highways, 80-90 km/h outside cities and with careful accelleration inside cities (not shut off at traffic lights!) i can achieve minimum consumtion of 8l/100km
    If transferred to the 400h i would expect a pritty good efficiency.
    What i did not like driving the 400h was the agressive behavior of the engine... instead of making it easy for the driver to drive at lowest possible fuel consumption the vehicle seems to be optimised to show power and accelleration, reacting spontaneously on micro-movements of your right foot.
    I think the focus of the Toyota engineers is to proove the 400h is a power Hybrid.
  • ptm123ptm123 Posts: 15
    The point is it does not make any sense to put ejection seats in jet fighters if they never leave the ground. I live in New England on a street with 7 Houses, of those 5 have SUVs of one type or another. None of them are ever driven of the road. The main rational for these vehicles is driving in snow, number of passengers, comfort and in one case towing. Do these things require an SUV, probable not, but if they are paying the frieght why should I care.

    As far as the RX400h is concerned it is interesting that I read a review of the RX330 which had the exact same statement about not being designed for off road use. Design for of road use implies mostly that underside components of the vehicle are protected. The underside of the RX is stated by Lexus to by designed for aero dynamics to improved mileage. In reality most SUVs are not designed for off road use. Does that mean that they cannot be used that way? Of course not? I drove cars on unpaved, washed out paths through the woods for years with no damage and never getting stuck. On the other hand my brother's son managed to tear the rearend of his Subaru SUV out driving down a Vermont cow path in the middle of the night. My point is manufacturers statements like this a more a reflection covering themselves from the stupidty of consumers than the capabilties of the vehicle.

    In the case of the RX400h rear motor design it is mainly common sense. The goal was to eliminate the drive train going to rear. The problem is the front electric motors are oil/water cooled, having the radiator up from makes this fairly easey. For the rear motor to have it oil/water cooled would require a raditor in rear of the vehicle or cooling lines from front to back. Lexus decided the disadvantages to these designed outwayed the benefits. The theory is that the requirement for powering all four wheels is intermitent. In my opinion this is the case whether or not your driving off-road. That being the said I am sure someone find a path up some mountain that would require constant use of four wheel drive. If that is your typical driving maybe this vehicle is not for you. In my case if I come up against this I have good set of mountain climbing boots which will take my anywhere I want to go.
  • hejohejo Posts: 4
    Wayne,
    i dont know the specific EPA methods but wondering to what extend they are different from the Standards here in Europe.
    No doubt there are driving profiles extremely utilizing the fuel saving features of a Hybrid Car and others where a Hybrid vehicle is hardly giving any benefits. I cant imagine that going at a speed of 110mph that there is much potential for a hybrid to reduce consumption.
    However using just moderate acceleration and deceleration (utilizing recuperation) should tremendously decrease fuel consumption.
    Moving a heavy vehicle being equipped with a large engine carefully is somehow useless because the engine would operate at very poor efficiency at low load. The Toyota Hybrid however is designed to either run the combustion engine either at optimum efficiency or shut it down, the electric motors do the job at low load conditions.
    Am i wrong?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    one doesn't need to go off-road in order to NEED the overall performance of an SUV such as the RX300.

    Mother Nature provides just enough "off-road" experience for me.

    Anyway, my RX300 is likely to go off-road occasionally, just as my AWD Chrysler T&C often did, but out of necessaty, not for SPORTS reasons.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    Thanks Hejo! So, if I understand the conversion here (0.024gallons per mile) then one gallon will drive you as much as 41.66 miles by being very careful with the accelerator. If that is the case, then it is outstanding. Did I calculate this correctly? What is a reasonable estimate for mpg for a very careful driver? Can he attain 35, 38, or perhaps 40 mpg?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,146
    The point is it does not make any sense to put ejection seats in jet fighters if they never leave the ground.

    I know in So CA people are passionate about their SUVs & 4X4 PU Trucks. Many Real Estate sales people use the RX300 series for showing property. There is still a lot of homes & land that is only accessible by dirt roads. Many get washed out during seasonal rains that we are now experiencing. What do you think would happen if I were to tell a client that I could not show him the property in my RX400h SUV because it is not Really an SUV. Kiss that commission good-bye.

    Many other people spend a lot of time in the desert. There are sandy back roads all over to explore. I for one would not like to get caught in a sudden rain storm stuck in a sandy wash because Lexus did not think I would want to use an SUV off road. It will be interesting to see how it plays out as I am sure the biggest percentage of pre-orders for the RX400h are in CA.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    Speaking for myself (and probably lots of others), I have had enough of this discussion concerning off road driving with the RX400h. I honestly could not care less about off road driving. I am certain that the RX400h is more than adequate to take my wife & I everywhere we want to go under various weather conditions and be very comfortable and safe doing so. Lexus is NOT stupid about these things. So, those of you that want to go hunting, and drive in the wilderness with no roads, you should buy something other than the RX400h or the RX330 for that matter. Now, if you talk to me about the fact that Lexus is not making the laser cruise control or the smart key available for the RX400h, that is another matter.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "What do you think would happen if I were to tell a client that I could not show him the property in my RX400h SUV because it is not Really an SUV. Kiss that commission good-bye."

    You're hilarious!
  • jamese777jamese777 Posts: 18
    There's a good review of the SUV by Pulitizer Prize winning reporter Dan Neil at the following address:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil23feb23,1,2569993.story?co- ll=la-headlines-sports
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    "4.54liter= 1 gallon "

    Thats British (Imperial) gallon friend,
    US Gallon = 3.78 l.

    I dont know why USA (along with Liberia) is holding on to gallon when all other countries have converted to Metric. But that L / 100 km is weird. Why not you guys say km/l.
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