Lexus RX 400h and 450h

dmcmahon

According to this article, the 400h doesn't qualify for the $2,000 deduction:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Savinganddebt/Saveonacar/P113609.asp

dmcmahon

Will everyone posting mileage figures please indicate how you are measuring? Because I have noticed (with my GS) that the mileage figures reported by the trip computer often don't match the figure you'd get by setting the trip od on fill-up, then dividing the trip miles by gallons-in at the next fill-up. The latter is more real-world; the computer is getting data from the fuel injectors and can have cumulative rounding errors. In general I find the trip computer reads higher than actual, sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot.

larsb

It's not yet certified by the IRS, that usually takes a few weeks. But it WILL BE, without a doubt, 100% certainty, just like all the other hybrids have been.

cyclone4

This article is quite misleading in my opinion. First of all, the IRS has not made the decision yet on the tax deduction, but it makes it sound that it will not qualify. Most likely it WILL qualify. Secondly, it states that the RX400h is $10,000 more than the comparable RX330. That's BS. The RX330 comparably equipped is only about $4-5,000 less than the RX400h and not $10,000. There are a lot of other statements in this article that are either misleading or just plain wrong.

ctsang

I think they meant out the door price. You are right about the MSRP difference. But one can only get the 400h for MSRP and one can get the 330 for 4-5K below MSRP.

eman5

How much octane you supposed to put in the 400h gas tank?

cyclone4

87 Octane which means regular unleaded gas. I'm not sure how it is elsewhere in the nation, but here in the heart of the Cornbelt ethanol (higher octane at 89) is 10 cents cheaper per gallon than the regular unleaded. Thus, it is a "no brainer" that I will be using ethanol.

crystal2

Hi, I think ctsang is right. I have just purchased the 2005 AWD RX330 Thundercloud Limited Ed with NAV/ rear camera and Mark Lev (no Rear Ent System or Perf package) for $41,400 (approx. $5000 of MRSP) and I could have gotten the regular RX330 with RSES for about $42,000 (but the RES or Mark Lev audio are not standard for the RX400H). All quotes I got through internet sales or phone calls to local dealers indicate that most were willing to sell the RX330 at a discount to MRSP ($3000-5000). I believe people are buying the standard RX400H for approx. $49,000-50,000?, so the difference is closer to $10,000 before the $2000 deduction (which should be effective also for the RX400H; however, that only works out to be $500-600 actual dollars, correct?, for people in the 28-33% tax bracket?).

gagrice

I think there will be a whole new bill that includes clean diesels along with hybrids. I have read up to $4000 tax deduction depending on the mileage improvement over comparable vehicles. I may even get a break.

“We’ve got the President talking about and calling for tax incentives for diesels—putting them on a par with other advanced technologies like hybrids—we’ve got the House just passed an energy bill that includes tax credits for diesel and today we’re showing the most advanced clean diesel technology that’s available here in the US and what Europeans are experiencing,“

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/clean_diesels_o.html

gagrice

I have just purchased the 2005 AWD RX330

I would bet that many of those on the RX400h waiting list are jumping over to the deals offered on the RX330s. How can Lexus lose on a deal like that. They just don't get that overpriced MSRP. The $500-600 tax incentive does not even cover the difference you pay on sales tax for a $10k premium. In CA that is an additional $775 or more.

sinepman

I think they want to give a $4,000 deduction for hybrids. There was no mention of diesels. From what I read, the new restrictions on diesels may cost the public an add'l $3k or more to buy a diesel with the add'l hardware the manufacturers will have to add. This is going to make the hybrids even more attractive!

stevedebi

"Did you ever start to think of what the RX has over a CR-V??? Let's see a bigger engine, more safety equipment, more features, it's quieter(yes, that does add weight), thicker glass all around(adds alot of weight)."

I have to disagree about the safety equipment, since all 2005 CR-Vs have curtain and side airbags, plus VSC standard. And it has gotten the highest ratings in both Highway Institute and govenment testing.

Won't argue about weight, not sure about the glass thickness (or where you got that info).

More features, certainly.

Bigger engine - OK, but that is Lexus's choice in the first place, and less weight might work just as well with less engine. I think you would be surprised at the acceleration of the CR-V if you ever drove one... Honda is very good a small engines with big power...

stevedebi

"I do have a new question, what type of gas do you use. My dealer said regular unleaded was fine, so that's what I've been using (shell). I wonder if that makes any difference?"

I don't own an RX, but I can say that on my Honda, if I use really cheap gas (like at Wal-Mart or similar), I lose about 1 MPG (should be more on a Hybrid). I stay with Texaco, Shell, or Exxon/Mobil.

stevedebi

"What did everyone expect as far as MPG for a 4,500lb SUV?? How many 4,500 lb cars even get 23-24 MPG in mixed city/highway driving??"

Interesting you should mention this, I used to get 19 MPG city / 23 mixed / 27 MPG highway mileage on my 2002 Honda Odyssey (240 HP, V6, 3.5L). ICE only. Of course, it was a minivan, with better aerodynamics. My van weighed in at about 4500 lbs.

Also, the Toyota Sienna (2004+) gets about 23 in town... not sure of the wieght of the 2nd Gen Sienna.

headless

Very good point...I have Eagle somethings on my car...I'll check more closely later...

Headless

headless

Wrong! A tax credit is money directly off what you owe to the fed. gov't...a tax deduction is before the percentage is made...

A tax credit is vastly superior and hybrid tax help is offered in credit form, not deduction!

Headless

maxhonda99

What's the point of comparing a odyssey or Sienna to a SUV??

Sure a minivan is going to get better gas mileage than a similar weight SUV. A sedan weighing similar will do even better.

Don't forget, AWD as well as the higher ground clearance are what eat up gas mileage in a SUV.

love2scuba

I was one that almost purchased the RX330 instead of the 400H but I chose the hybrid even thought the economics are not that great (at first). Here was my logic. If I average 8 miles per gallon more on average than the RX330 and I drive my normal 25,000 per year, I will save about 384 gallons of gas per year. That’s about $1,075 per year at the current $2.80/gallon here in the San Francisco Bay area. I hold onto my cars a long time (still have a ’94 Mustang GT convertible). So if I have it 8 years, that’s $8,600 in gas savings, more if gas goes up (which it will). Other factors; using less gas is definitely better from a natural resources standpoint, 25 or so less trips to the pump, more power, quieter ride, and probably a better resale value than on the RX330. Add in the potential tax credit of $2,000 and it was a no brainer for me.

krellu

Probably by then or maybe sooner,also may include the mark levinson audio system.

drivetrain

Our dealer said we could use regular unleaded but that we'd probably get better mileage with premium unleaded. I'm skeptical about that claim, but we haven't filled the tank yet so I can't tell whether he's right or wrong.

love2scuba

Yes, that is a big maybe. More power, but I don't know if that would translate into more mileage. Probably not worth the extra 20 cents a gallon. Thanks for the input.

crystal2

Headless, I got my info from other posts that disagree with what you stated in Message # 1181. I first read about the tax deduction (not tax credit) in the Toyota Prius Prices Paid and Buying Experiences Forum (Message #845). The DEDUCTION part was confirmed again by 2 posts (Backy and Gagrice) in the Prius forum. My husband also thought it was a tax credit, but unfortunately, it is not. Gagrice made the point that the confusion may lie in the fact that certain states (like Oregon) do give the credit. Gagrice, maybe you can confirm this since you are posting in this forum. I assume NY (where I reside) is not one of the states to give the credit? We do not get too many breaks with rates and fees in this state. (Perhaps there will be an increase up to a $4000 tax credit/ deduction; I believe this is being considered by congress for 2005?) This point is relevant to me since I am considering the cost of a second car purchase after a recent Lexus RX330 purchase (see if we can get a fully loaded Prius in the low $20,000s after the tax "credit" and sale of our low mileage 1997 Subaru.)

plee1

Link to IRS website: http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=104549,00.html

plee1

Washington, DC has exempted hybrid cars from its 7% excise tax (equivalent to a sales tax), which exemption was linked to cars qualifying under the federal clean-fuel vehicle deduction. With the IRS certifying the RX400h, that's an additional $3,500 in savings (approximate) as compared to a non-hybrid alternative if you live in Washington, DC. This goes a long way in my mind to justify the cost differential as compared to the RX330, since it does not even account for increased fuel efficiency.

crystal2

Hi, Glad this subject came out. I have done some reading since I posted about the tax credit/ deduction (Message #1172). So it is a tax deduction plus possibly some other exemptions/ breaks in some states. For instance, in NYS, you get a refund on the sales tax for a hybrid bought in 2005 and a federal income tax deduction of $2000. This means the amount paid for the 400H would be $55,000 (plus tax) minus approx. $5000. That would bring the total cost of the 400H to around $50,000 for a standard 400H (compared to approx. $45,000- includes tax- for a well loaded RX330). The difference is less than the $10,000 difference discussed previously (thanks to the tax credits in certain states, which the 400H should also qualify for). Sorry, I realize there are now new subforums, but no one appears to be using them yet and I wanted to update on the new info I have put together.

sinepman

I didn't realize that in NY you can save all that sales tax. That means the hybrid premium really isn't a premium in NY!!!! That makes it a no brainer for anyone in NY wanting to purchase a standard RX over the RH. More power, better MPG, more content. Something to finally like about NY besides high taxes!!

crystal2

Sinepman, I am not sure the 400H is officially included (but it should be, just as it was announced today the income tax deduction of $2000 applies to the 400H). I had pulled together the info after being referred to the:
Tax credits/ incentives for hybrids?
forum by the host of the Prius subforum on Prices Paid and Buying Experience. Once you get to that forum, read Timber104's Messages #20 and 21.

vdoc

Hello again everyone. How about an informal straw poll? When accelerating (gradually) from a dead stop in city driving, at what speed (mph) does your gas engine kick in and run in tandem with the electric and at what speed does your electriic turn off and let the car go on gas alone? Average driving, flat pavement, A/C running. -vdoc :confuse:

love2scuba

After it's already been warmed up, mine kicks in around 15mph with a moderate to soft foot. I can milk it to a little over 20mph if there is no one behind me . Update on my last fillup 27.3 mpg.

sinepman

Thanks for the info! I have a friend who has a deposit on the RH and it is arriving in 3 weeks. I'll have to do the research for him as he is not internet savvy.

stevedebi

"Wrong! A tax credit is money directly off what you owe to the fed. gov't...a tax deduction is before the percentage is made...

A tax credit is vastly superior and hybrid tax help is offered in credit form, not deduction! "

Unfortunately, it is you that is wrong. It is a federal tax deduction, not a tax credit. Some states offer credits off of the sales tax or state tax, but the congressional hybrid law is a deduction.

wwest

Our Prius doesn't like going uphill, not even just a slight incline, on just the electrics, ICE kicks in every time.

drives1

I found it varies, depending on how long the car has been allowed to "warm up". If I start up and drive off right away, the gas engine kicks in at 5mph or so. If the ignition has been on for a while, I can get up to 12-15 or so. The car has less than 200 miles so far, so results may change after it's broken in.

cyclone4

My wife & I did some shopping this afternoon and I intentionally only drove in city streets. During our little trip to the mall and back home, I turned the ignition off a total of 3 times. The first engine shut-down was to fill up with gas. I wanted to see just how much gas it would take to fill up. Well, it took a total of 9.85 gallons of Ethanol (89 octane) to fill to the brim. The total distance driven since we picked up the car 293.7 miles The first 50 miles or so was messing around either at the dealer, going on a learning trip with the salesman, etc. and I doubt the gas mileage was that great. But anyway, this gives an average of 29.8 mpg. Here is the good part. I decided to then reset the trip odometer to zero after I filled it up with gas. As usual, the first couple minutes of driving after starting to drive gave the worst mileage result at about 21mpg. We proceeded to head to the mall through city streets. The average mpg kept steadily climbing and peaked at about 42 mpg. We got to the mall, shopped around, and then ate and spent a total of about 3 hours there. After turning the ignition on again, I noticed that the average mpg went down 34 after a few minutes (warm-up period). It then started climbing once again and it reached just over 40 mpg. I then decided to stop at our Lexus dealer on the way home to give the salesman the news about the mpg. Since he was not there, We took off again after a couple minutes. The mpg average this time went down to about 36.5 and then started to creep back up after a couple minutes. By the time we pulled into the garage the average mpg stood at 39.8. We drove a total of 19.7 miles since I reset it. A few days ago, when I was estimating that I drove about 25-30 miles in the city and that I averaged about 38 mpg, some folks here were in disbelief. That was an estimate (watching the meter bars and averaging) on my part since I had not reset the trip odometer.

Well, I now have undeniable proof that the RX400h that we own will indeed do even better than advertised in city driving as long as one uses the "common sense" rules of driving to attain good gas mileage in the city. I should add here that it was a wonderful warm day with temperatures in the upper 70s. I'm sure that the gas mileage will not be as good when it is really cold outside. Also, the fewer times the ignition needs to be turned off during a city-wide drive, the better for gas mileage due to no warm-up period which eats up the gas.

falconone

This was a very informative post and I am glad you took the time to compile the data. This gives me hope that the upcoming sedans will have even better mileage. I'd be curious to hear what your mileage is on a highway trip that averages 70MPH or so. Otherwise, enjoy your "performance SUV hybrid"!!!

wwest

average of 29.8MPG, absolutely.

But short term "averages" can be heavily influenced by use of the batteries.

Actually since the batteries can store so much fuel use capacity I wonder if it doesn't take as many as 5 or 6 tanks to know the true average. If you start your "averaging" with a full tank and full batteries and then refill the tank with the batteries near empty that will undoubtedly bias the average in favor of good fuel economy.

Since the batteries can be "filled" from regeneration or the ICE there is no way the OBC can give you the correct average. At least not in the short term, say less than 5 or 6 FULL TANK fill-ups.

cyclone4

I will deifinitely test it at 70 mph in the next few days or so & report back.

frenchorne

Saw this Lexus press release today about the IRS tax deduction approval:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050506

There are also several press articles out that claim Lexus sold 2,345 in the later part of April. Here is one such article.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0505070089may07,1,7604178.story?coll=chi-busine- - ss-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

The IRS publication is at this site:

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=104549,00.html

krellu

Does anybody know when you put the heater on say 74-77 degrees and when you shut it down is normal procedure for a message to appear on the nav screen saying that the AC is off? Puzzled in NY

jazzed

Hi,

Been reading the entries in this post and decided to put my question out there to all new owners of the lexus hybrid.

Are you happy with you Lexus Hybrid? Is it what you expected it to be, ie worth the money and the wait?

My husband and I are planning to p/u our hybrid this coming week, but after reading some of the posts regarding mileage/performance, we’re not too sure...This is our first luxury vehicle. Originally we were justifying the extra cost because not only would be doing our good for the environment, but we’d also have a “sporty suv” to enjoy with a more powerful engine than the RX330. But after reading these posts, sounds like we could buy the RX330 and get the same experience (luxury/fuel performance) for a cheaper price. So in all honesty, is this hybrid worth the extra cash?

falconone

I think you can safely assume that you will achieve an avg of 25 mpg overall as a conservative estimate. If you get the standard RX330 you will get around 18MPG overall. If you are not concerned with being green, then go for the reg RX330. A fantastic and enjoyable SUV and very very reliable.

cyclone4

In my opinion, it is a "no brainer" that you should go with RX400h. It is obviously a cheaper route to go with the 330, but I think it is extra money well spent to go with the 400h. With the 400h you get the best of both worlds...good gas mileage & great performance. Plus, as you state, you are helping out the environment.

As I stated on several posts above, you will be very pleased with the gas mileage. Additionally, you need to take into account that you will get a $2,000 tax deduction if you purchase (not lease) the 400h.

gagrice

From a different angle. If you are mostly in town driving the case can be made for the RX400h. If most of your driving is on the highway the RX330 will come very close to the hybrid version of around 25 MPG. The $2000 tax deduction is at most worth $700 in your pocket. Not even a factor on a $50k to $60k vehicle. With all the discounts on the RX330 you would save $8k to $10k. If you spend 75% of your driving time in town or stop & go, maybe the hybrid is worth it.

pai7

Lexus lists its RX400 H as a part-time all wheel drive.Does the RX330 with all full time AWD handle better than the Hybrid on the ice and snow ?

headless

Yup...

Read the site and it does appear to be a deduction...I was originally told it was a credit...

Drats!

Headless

headless

Okay everyone...

Here's what I got!!!

I drove my RX400h over 1000 miles this weekend...from MD to SC and back...

I averaged about 27.1 mpg going down as I hit traffic in DC and Northern VA...in traffic, the mileage was great as I was able to coast around on the electric...however, the gas motor did kick on when the electric battery was drained enough...this took about 1 mpg off the avg. before it shut off again...I was not using air or heavy battery drain accessories...

When I filled up, my manual calculations showed 27.1...the computer said 27.2...

While driving around in slower terrority with 35-50 mph limits, I averaged in low 25s...when you accelerate from stop and have to get up to speed more quickly, it does adversely affect your mileage...

On the ride home, I was at 24.1 for the first 150 miles...don't know why...oh yeah, had air conditioning on...so, figure that takes a little over 1 mpg away...

The rest of the trip I averaged a little over 27...got as high as 33.1 when in traffic again around Fredericksburg, VA...big accident apparently and lots of traffic...

So, I am a converted man...I see the vehicle can do the mileage as stated and I just needed to use it a lot more...

BTW...speeds...at 60 mph, you'll get about 28 mpg...65 mph you'll get around 26.8 mpg...at 70 mph, you'll get in mid 25s...at 75-80 mph, you'll get in upper 24s...I had over a 1000 miles to test this, so you can be sure the range is somewhere around this...

Headless

falconone

That's pretty impressive and on par with what I anticipated. I still think it will take a while to recoup the add'l cost versus a std 330, but.... if we all pitch in and do our part, look how much fuel we'd all save.

cyclone4

Headless,

I am happy that you are now happy ;-). That's good information that you provide for highway mileage at various speeds. I have not really had a chance to conduct some real good testing yet on the highway. Did you catch my post above from Friday dealing with city driving? I am extremely pleased to say the least.

markrogo

First this, "There are also several press articles out that claim Lexus sold 2,345 in the later part of April" which should forever bury any claims that the product isn't selling out. So much for the "canceled orders", no dealer can keep these on the lot for more than a few hours until the buyers pick them up.

Second, the tax deduction. Despite the car's price, I believe mine will pay for its hybrid premium while I own the car. If not, the additional resale will more than cover any differences. While I understand many people are price sensitive and that you can get a deal on the RX330 you can't get on the hybrid, the fact remains that over 8-10 years, even that edge on the gas-powered one will be recouped. I urge people to tell Lexus they want more of these. Perhaps in a few years, we'll then see two hybrid versions and no conventionally powered one at all. (1 tuned more for economy, 1 for performance.)

I should be about two weeks away!

dmcmahon

Perhaps in a few years, we'll then see two hybrid versions and no conventionally powered one at all. (1 tuned more for economy, 1 for performance.)

Or better yet, one version with a button inside that lets you switch between performance mode and economy mode whenever you want!