this vehicle is more inefficient as was orginally stated.
Welcome to the forum. I have read your posts with interest. This forum exists to hear the good and the bad about vehicles. Your input as an Owner of the new RX400h is appreciated. I also agree that if a person has to change his driving style to get decent mileage from a hybrid, that is not much of an advantage.
Face the facts: MOST PEOPLE drive too fast. Most people have bad driving habits. Most people zoom from red light to red light and waste gas by accelerating unnecessarily.
If buying a Hybrid forces someone to change "bad" driving habits and start using the instrumentation tools on the dash and paying more attention to the fact that "how a person drives" makes a HUGE difference in the amount of fuel used and wasted, then it is an advantage to EVERYONE who cares about pollution, fossil fuel waste, and the future of our world.
I appreciate your concerns. I am not saying that one needs to totally change his driving style, but let's face it. One can do a few simple things to attain better gas mileage. My main point above is that there is no way that anyone would get 19.3mpg in city driving unless something is drastically wrong. There is no way that the city driving will result in worse gas mileage than highway driving. I would like to hear from others out what their experiences have been to this point with the RX400h. From a personal point of view, my wife and I are very pleased. We are getting the quality vehicle that we were told we would be getting. Headless, you will hopefully get better gas mileage results sooner rather than later.
I definitely agree! Most people don't even prepare to stop and look ahead at the big picture of driving. I think people who bought this vehicle expecting to achieve EPA estimates didn't do their homework. Look at what happened when the Prius came out? People were crazy because they weren't getting 60 MPG!!! Most people that have a Prius are averaging high 40's which is pretty damn good. I expect that when more data is in, you are going to see the RX seeing averages of 26 or so. Definitely better than some of those SUV V8 beasts out there!
That's a pretty broad generalization...actually, defensive drivers cause more accidents, last time I checked...
Regardless, I'm not defending aggresive driving or driving too fast...that, of course, is bad...and highly inefficient...
And if you think driving fast is bad, it's certainly safer than looking at an instrument panel while you drive! Better to always have your eyes on the road...no matter what you're driving...
I'm sure (and hoping), with time all will work out and my new RX will get over 26 mpg average...I can live with that...need to put on a few thousand miles first...
Don't think a driving change is needed....just a few modifications...(I hope that's all!)
Quick question hear. Doesn't the RX have two electric motors? One that controls the rear wheels when the AWD is in use the other which operates at lower speeds? Thus the gas engine is shut off and on depending on the speed/torque of the vehicle. You would then realize better fuel economy in city driving. I talked to a rep at the NYC auto show, he loosely stated the vehicle could conceivably operate without using the gas engine during city driving although, the electric motor can only operate for short periods before needing to recharge.
"Latest word is the Acura RDX will be coming with a turbocharged 4-cylinder engine. Assuming it gains a few hundred pounds from the CR-Vs 3472, you're talking about the RDX weighing at about 3,700 pounds, which I think is quite realistic for a luxury branded SUV."
Hmmm, turbochargers don't weigh 250 lbs. I suspect the RDX will get the same mileage as the CR-V
"Well duh. a traditional internal combustion engine is also at it's best when paired with a smaller, lighter more aerodynamic vehicle. What's your point??? Did you really think the RX400h would defy the laws of physics and get 40 or 50MPG?"
Thanks for making my point, which is that some people seemed to look forward to the SUV hybrids for gas mileage, thinking in line with the Prius. My original statements (way back last year), were that the hybridization of the SUVs would not net the kind of increases inherent in Prius-class vehicles. In other words, they aren't good for the planet (if you are into the "green" stuff). I realize they are better than large SUVs, but in terms of the environment, that is like saying a 250 lb bomb is better than a 500 lb bomb to the person being hit by one.
" The reason they didn't put a 4-cylinder into a RX400h is because they were smart. They knew(and have known for years) that very few people shelling out $40K+ for a luxury branded product in the US will buy a 4-cylinder."
You might check my post, I said "SUVs" intentionally; they don't even offer it in the Highlander Hybrid...
Yes, it has 2 electric motors. At low speeds the electric motors do a lot of the work. Up to a point (until a recharge is needed) and after the initial warm-up period of a couple minutes, one can drive at 20-25 mph without the V6 engine turned on. As I stated a few days ago, I was traveling in a heavy residential street at about 20-25 mph for about a mile and I could not detect the gas engine running. During this period, the meter on the consumption screen was showing a constant 60 mpg. I have not driven our RX as much as I would like so far (remember that it is officially my wife's car). I will report with more information in the days ahead. Remember, this is totally new to us and we are slowly learning more of the the behaviour/peculiarities of the 400h as we go along.
:Huh. The Acura RDX is going to be smaller than the RX400h for starters. "
Well, not by much, since it is based on the CR-V. The differences:
Head room: Equal Leg room: RX has 1 more inch in front, and 3 inches less in the rear Shoulder Room: Rx has one additional inch front and rear Cargo: Rx has more with seats up - by 5 Cu Feet / 12 Cu Feet with seats down. (Rx wins this one). Ground Clearance: CR-V - by one inch more clearance The RX is about 3 inches more in wheelbase and length, 2 inches more in width.
The CR-V weighs in at 3500 lbs with AWD, while the ICE only RX weighs 4065 lbs. (Wouldn't be fair to compare weight of the Hybrid, due to the batteries)
So the RX is larger, but not by much - on the outside. If I slide those CR-V seats forward to make the same rear legroom as the RX, the CR-V goes to about 40 Cu feet with the rear seats up. So while the outside is larger on the RX, the insides are very similar in capability.
I wouldn't normally compare these two vehicles, because one is a luxury class and one a standard class, but the Acura RDX will probably be similar in size and weight.
I have a question, what do people who own an RX330 average in MPG? I have a friend that owns a 300 and averages around 21 MPG in mostly highway driving. We are all annalizing the 400h without any real world input on what the 330 gets. No one ever gets the EPA rating on MPG especially in a hybrid. The EPA test is extremely biased to Hybrids. Like I said earlier, I am averaging 24 MPG and this is the same as my 1996 V6 Dodge stratus was getting. I would take the 400 over the Dodge anyday.
.... Lexus is charging solely for performance on other cars. I, personally, am buying it for fuel economy and not performance, but that's not how Lexus is marketing it.
And, no, I'll never "break even". If I drive 10,000 miles per year, I'll use 400 gallons +/- vs. the 660 I use now. So I'll save 260 x at least $2.50 per year (I assume gas prices will actually average quite a bit more, but I'm certain I'll averager $2.50) so that's $650 a year in gas savings. 5 years, I save $3000+... I don't even know what the hybrid premium is, after adjusting for the options, but whatever....
I go from 15-16 MPG to ~25MPG (and maybe I do better) and take tons of emissions out of the environment, fill up less often, do a little something for the planet, sleep better, etc.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the EPA mileage is measured on a dyno at 45 miles per hour, not the typical 65-70 people normally drive on the highway (up hills, threw the snow, both ways). Gas is non linear, meaning the faster you drive the more gas is consumed.
Also, I believe the savings (fuel consumption) is more so rated as a percentage over the standard engine in the same vehicle. So you can't really compare an RX Hybrid to a Precis or a Hybrid/Turbo CR-V, etc.
I posted this link in another board but it may be more fitting here;
How about we throw a bit of fairness, objectivity, into this "fray"??
Several years ago I purchased a new 2003 Prius.
It does not achieve the advertised EPA MPG ratings nor did I expect it would. According to the onboard computer it averaged 43MPG for the last 7394 miles, 95% in city. Odometer indicates 17119 miles since it rolled off the showroom floor. 405.151 gallons to travel a total of 17119 miles gives us 42.253MPG. Guess that computer is pretty accurate.
This morning I noted that the average MPG reading on my 2001 AWD RX300 is 17.2MPG. That's very likely at least a 3,000 mile average if not as much as 5,000 miles. It very likely includes several highway trips of 200 to 300 miles. To put that into context that is about the MPG we could get in our 1992 Jeep Cherokee Limited with the I6 motor with purely highway miles.
We get ~22MPG in the RX300 for pure highway travel.
Not all that bad, all things considered.
So, 20-24MPG in city for the RX400h is about a 20% to 40% MPG improvement over my 2001 AWD RX300.
Also not bad.
But.
RX400h highway cruise MPG....
When I first bought the prius I noted that the batteries continued to be used even at a constant highway speed. On a trip to Portland from Seattle, ~150 miles, other than driving HP, the ICE needed to be used at least 4 times to bring the batteries back up to a charged state.
This made no sense to me so I bought the Prius manuals to begin looking into the possibility of disconnecting the batteries during highway trips to extend the MPG rating.
NOT POSSIBLE!
The Prius CVT, Constantly Variable Transmission, is not the same one most of us are familiar with. Basically the CVT in the Prius and the RX400h is simply a differential, very much like the one found in many transfer cases of an early 4X4.
The ICE drives one input and the electric motor drives the other input. The rate at which the output shaft turns is the "sum" of the two inputs.
The bottom line is that the electric motor MUST be used at all times, even at a constant highway speed. The "front" electric motor in the RX400h determines the CVT "gear" ratio. And yes, that is detrimental, possibly highly detrimental, to highway fuel economy.
But not really a bad compromise if the object is to attain stellar in city, stop and go traffic, fuel economy and ultra-low emissions.
Got that?
IN CITY ULTRA-LOW EMISSIONS..........!!!
Think Los Angeles.
So, my mind is made up, my next vehicle will be a new 2006 AWD RX330 (350??) with air suspension. That's provided, of course, that the engine hesitation symptom is overcome by then.
Another thing to point out is that the EPA test makes little sense for a hybrid. As you can see from this page How Vehicles are Tested the EPA doesn't measure fuel consumption, they measure carbon in the exhaust:
A hose is connected to the tailpipe to collect the engine exhaust.
The amount of carbon in the exhaust is measured to calculate the amount of fuel used during the test.
This is more accurate than using a fuel gauge.
A hybrid on their dyno is going to readings that don't match actual fuel consumption since different amounts of electrical energy will be used. For example suppose they did an "in town" test with full battery and very little use of the gas engine, mileage would appear to be higher, since carbon emissions would be minimal. A long highway drive that mostly uses the engine and sucks power out to charge the battery could even make mileage look worse. Its not likely that these two effects would cancel each other out to get to real world mileage.
Ok, it's time for me to dive in and come to the aid of headless! I am having a very similar experience with my new 400h that has only 250 miles on it so far. Nearly all is city/suburban driving. When I took delivery of the vehicle last week, the consumption gauge was averaging 26.4 mpg. No big deal at this point; no one ever hits the EPA. However, since that time, I have watched the mileage fall each day. This morning when I left the house, it was showing average of 23.4. This evening it's at 22.4, obviously indicative of a trend. What I'm noticing is that once the car gets going over 4-5 mph, the gas engine kicks in. Like headless, my energy meter is showing average consumption of 6-10 mpg on acceleration up to 30 mph. This afternoon I was tooling along at 35 and I noticed that the rear electric wasn't even on. I've read all of the posts yesterday and have taken and tried everyone's advice; i.e. "soft foot" "hard foot" rapid acceleration, slower acceleration with no changes on the energy meter. My normal driving style is "egg under the gas pedal soft". Been driving that way for over 35 years. How else would I have consistently squeezed 16 mpg out of my Acura MDX in city traffic? I contacted the dealer yesterday but I'm still being bounced around by the service managers. So move over headless, you've got company! :mad:
If you want to discuss the EPA testing method and what kind of mileage you might be getting or expected on your hybrid, it probably would be best to do so in the Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected? topic.
Let's keep the discussion here focused on the 400h and how the shakedown cruises are going!
My wife and I first saw the 400h at the L.A. Auto Show early 2004 and went straight to our local neighborhood Lexus dealer and put our name on the list. We have been waiting impatiently ever since. Finally, a year and a half later, the cars were delivered and we got one from the first batch. We were told that the first few out the door had an added premium of 15k, but that we would only be charged an extra 10k. We had waited so long, we weren't going to walk away, so we just paid it. I talked them "down" to 60k even.
Question #1 - I got hosed, didn't I.
Question #2 - They threw in "Xzilon" coating for the car for free. (900.00 value?) What does anyone know about Xzilon? It sure makes the paint look great.
Lair, I still have about a month or so before I get my promised SUV at MSRP. If they tried to do to me what they have done to you I would simply walk away and buy the RX 330 from a different dealer. I will have my Lexus 2000 RX 300 to sell since the trade-in will be insulting. Any ideas where I should sell this? The prices on E-Bay look very tempting at about 15K.
Contact Lexus and file a complaint against your dealership...Lexus does not allow dealers to 'upcharge' for vehicles...that is in violation of Lexus corporate policies and doesn't make Lexus look good! I would definitely complain as you've paid about 10k more than you should have (especially for a car that isn't going to do what it says anyway...that's another topic though!)...
Third...you don't need a coating on your car and I doubt they put one on...Lexus has excellent paint processes...I would think anything additional would be almost bad for the paint job...it needs to breath a bit...to prevent corrosion!
Keep in mind that the only real gain, MPG, emissions, in the Toyota hydrid design is the recovery of inertial energy during coastdown from the use of regenerative braking, or simulating engine compression braking.
That's why the hwy MPG vs city is inverse to a normal vehicle.
Cruising along the highway at a reasonably constant speed still requires the use of the battery with no ability to recharge except via the ICE.
I wonder if the hybrids need a third foot pedal, an extra one so the driver can "tell" the system that it's okay to coast down rapidly, as rapidly as possible using only the regeneration components.
Or maybe have the first inch of travel of the brake pedal reserved for this.
I find this discussion fascinating. While I hear that no one is getting 30 mpg, what I don't hear is what people were getting before. I drive an Envoy and most of my driving is stop and go with stop signs almost every block. And I tend to have a lead foot. So I'm averaging around 12 mpg. If that changes to 20 mpg with a hybrid, I'd be happy. It's all relative. So when you post your mpg, how about posting your pre-hybrid mpg, too. And mention what kind of vehicle it was. If you're comparing a 400h to a Civic, that would be good to know. Thanks.
That's one of the frustrating things reading about these mileage "problems". Yep, the new owners expected to be getting better mileage performance, but as you point out, what would they have been getting from a non-hybrid version of the same vehicle?
While I totally agree with the theme of your post, I want to make you aware that I am getting more than 30 mpg in the city, driving the 400h. I'm sure that some others are also getting 30+. I just did some additional testing the past couple of hours with my wife's 400h and I can tell you that after doing all kinds of errands in the city (about 25 miles worth) in stop and go traffic, I averaged about 38 mpg. I was not drving like an old grandmother either. I made sure to accelerate at a moderate, steady pace when I needed to accelerate, and I also made sure not to tailgate, anticipating stops and slow-downs and act accordingly. Invariably, the first few minutes of driving (after turning the ignition off and restarting), resulted in the worst MPG (averaging about 21, mpg). However, after this initial couple minutes I was at times spiking up to 60+ (that's as high as the meter goes) during several 5 minute intervals.
I am convinced that this vehicle brings the best of both worlds (great performance and surpringly good gas mileage).
So far, it looks like the consensus here is that with fairly conscientous driving techniques, most of us are averaging no more than 25mpg. I've got 340 miles on my RX400 now, and I've only had one outing where I came in at over 30 mpg. Oddly, it was a 7 mile drive, and I've definitely found that it's those first five or ten minutes that really drag down the mileage. I asked the question a few days ago but haven't gotten a very good recommendation yet -- has anyone gone out to get a Bluetooth phone for their car? What models are working well? I did hear from here that Sprint is extremely limited on choices. Oh well.
First of all, 38 mpg over how long a stretch? A mile or two of coasting perhaps...no way you're gonna get that with hitting the gas...unless you're driving a different car...(sorry cyclone)
As far as blue tooth...I have a treo 650 with Cingular...works like a charm...downloaded entire phone book (contacts list) and set up 1-touch numbers...very cool!
One thing...the treo 650 only uploads 'home' numbers, so if you need another number uploaded (mobile, work), you have to label it as home, do a single upload...etc...takes a bit of time, but not a big problem as the overall function is great...
While driving, if you get a call, the car answers...stereo mute automatically, as is navigation..can still view though...
That was an AVERAGE of 38 MPG over a 25 mile stretch in city driving. If I were to just take 2-5 minute drives I would not be able to do better than about 21 mpg. I will have a lot more for you non-believers this weekend.
Here's day 2 of my saga. Took my hybrid back to the dealer today to find out why I was still averaging less than 23 mpg (in town). The took it in the back and checked it and declared that everything was working properly. I then took a ride with the service manager driving and pointed out to him via the energy schematic how often the car was only running on gas, even when driving under 35 mph. He said it was normal. I then made him do the same thing in one of their demo cars. From what I could see, the demo was using the electric considerably more than mine was but, I admit, that's a pretty subjective thing unless you're riding in two cars at the same time. In addtion, the service manager was considrably more of an aggressive driver than I am. Sure, watching those stupid screens can you stress you out but here's a stat you can't refute: I filled up the tank with 14 gallons today having traveled 324 miles on the intial tank that came from the dealer. You do the math. I come up with just a tad over 23 mpg and only 1/4 to 1/3 of that mileage was earned on the highway. Reset my consumption guage when I left the dealer this PM. So far for the first 50 miles I'm getting a whopping 22.7. Oh yes, I'm in South Florida. flat as a pancake. Closest thing we have to a hill is the curb.
Perhaps this is being too premature but at this point if someone asked me if they should buy one of these, I would advise them to wait until Lexus figures out some of this stuff. I am confident they eventually will but in the meantime my need to feel environmentally responsible isn't much being fulfilled. :mad:
Sony Ericson models work extremely well. I also have a Motorola V551 which works excellent. I don't think Sprint has too many offerings, but their service stinks anyway. Maybe you should consider switching.
When my friend put a deposit down a few months ago, I told him to WAIT until there were a few on the road to guage what real world folks were getting. I even told my friend that I guessed real world avg mileage would be around 25. Since this hybrid is different from the Prius I am not surprised. First of all, the engine is not like the atkinson cycle engine in the Prius. Secondly, the Lexus is marketed as high performance SUV with V8 type power with much lower fuel consumption. Since you're getting low 20's (it will get better) I think that's pretty good since you do have a nice high performance machine. I doubt you will do better than 30, but some people claim they are. You ought to be happy. If not, put your vehicle on eBay and maybe get what you paid for it.
What if, for some odd reason, some hybrids are 'tuned' differently so that the batteries run more than the gas motor...this would help mpg a lot, and probably not affect performance as electric motors produce more torque/acceleration anyway...
Anyone think that although we're driving the same vehicle, something's different between them?
All these cars came from Japan....is it possible that thinks were tweaked between the first several thousand that were sent here?
I'm driving gingerly as it is and getting in mid 22s mpg...if I were to take advantage of performance, there's no doubt I'd be below 20 mpg...
It appears to me as if the V6 is highly inefficient, or just straining too much to get the vehicle and all its weight going...
Those of you hitting 30 mpg, I simply cannot accept that if we're driving the same vehicle...it's not a question of some of us being 'non-believers'...it has to do with driving as closely as possible to what you're describing and still getting almost 8 mpg less...something's off with that...
I need to get this thing on the open road and drive it a few hundred miles at one time...next weekend I'm gonna take this thing and really open it up...try to loosen it up a little...I'll try different speeds on the highway and see what the mileage differences are...I'm just afraid I'll fall asleep if I drive at 55 mph...this car is pretty darn comfortable!
Did you ever start to think of what the RX has over a CR-V??? Let's see a bigger engine, more safety equipment, more features, it's quieter(yes, that does add weight), thicker glass all around(adds alot of weight).
No, a 4-cylinder turbo engine won't add 250 lbs to a RDX. But if you think you will see the RDX come in at a similar weight to the CRV you're kidding yourself! First of all, the RDX is probably going to be based on the next generation CR-V. Right there you can bet the CRV will gain some weight. Second, the RD-X will have luxury market level equipment, which means more features, more safety features, will be quieter(which goes back to things like added sound insulation & thicker glass). And then you can watch the RDX pack on a few hundred additional pounds!
Headless, I'm with you. I'm beginning to think there just might be some differences between indiviudal cars. Heck, I saw it today with my own eyes but no one at Lexus wants to beleive it. I'm drivin this rig like "granny" and still no satisfaction.
Is there a 'standard' program format or some way for Lexus to test the vehicles to see if the electric motor/gas motor are working the same in all vehicles? I think this would be a good step in determining if all is okay...
I just can't stop wondering if cyclone's car is accelerating to like 10 mph without gas whereas my gas motor kicks in at 5 mph...this would make huge changes to efficiency...or, when I hit the pedal lightly while at 30 mph, my gas motor goes on whereas cyclone's electric motor kicks in a bit...this again, a big difference...
How does on compare/contrast...if the 'timing' is off even a little, you could be talking a 20% difference easily...I don't think the battery would drain that much more...more performance comes from electric torque anyway, so more battery use for acceleration from stop would make sense!
After the initial 2-5 minute warm-up period, I am not sure of the exact speed, but I do think that our vehicle does move at about 8-10 mph without the gas engine turning on. In fact, I have had many occasions when I am moving at 20-25 mph without the gas engine being on. The engine however, does turn on in order to accelerate to reach 25 mph. Stay tuned! A lot more will be revealed in the coming days and weeks.
During coastdown, partial throttle or none, the regeneration system will activate and begin to charge the batteries. It will also begin to charge the batteries if you have cruise control on and the car begins to overspeed, say on a downhill slope.
The exception to this is if you choose to use actual engine braking. In that case the engine remains coupled to the driveline to attain true compression braking. The regeneration "cycle" will still be working, but with the engine compression contributing substantially to the rate the vehicle slows not as much power will go into the batteries.
Actual BRAKING.
I can only guess, really. It is my impression that with very light pressure on the brake pedal most of the "braking" is the result of the drag created by the regenration effects. The heavier you depress the brake pedal the more actual frictional braking kicks in.
I do need to take some longer trips with this car to check it out more...I did about a 50 mile road test, but was not too happy...then again, I was around 75 mph for most of the trip so efficiency was compromised...argh!
Short trips do seem to not allow the engine/battery to warm up sufficiently...I guess it goes with the temperature thing too...the car likes warmer temperatures...this evidently applies to the car liking to be warmed up internally as well...
If you accelerate from a stop going down hill, the gas will kick in later than if you are going up hill..it depends on the need...
My RX will always have the gas motor on when I accelerate at speeds of 25 mph...no exceptions...I simply don't think the computer is programmed to allow for electric acceleration once moving 'that' fast...of course, when you take your foot off the gas, it'll coast and your mileage will go up....
If you can get to 10 mph with 'normal' acceleration (not grandma stuff), I'm jealous...that would mean your car is more efficient than mine...and I honestly think they're all the same!!! However, when accelerating from a stop, when I hit the pedal a little more than touching it, the gas will kick on...I wonder, being you drive a longer time, if the gas motor is desensitized a little as the car warms up...this would allow for more electric motor useage....hmmmmmm...better efficiency...
If not anything else, this is certainly an interesting $50,000 experiment...let's hope the end results (a few thousand miles down the road) reveal the ability to keep good mileage while having fun driving the car!
Well I've had me 400h for two weeks now and have already taken a decent road trip from SF to Oregon and I'm averaging between 26-27 on every tank. Right on what the dealer told me to expect on the highway. I don't do a lot of city driving, but today I got stuck in some heavy stop and go coming home on my 30 mile commute and averaged right at 30 mpg. I have about 1400 miles so it maybe because my engine should be pretty much broken in by now. My advice is to stick with it, it should get better. Also, my previous car was a GS400, so lets just say I don't drive like a grandma, but I don't floor it either. I do have a new question, what type of gas do you use. My dealer said regular unleaded was fine, so that's what I've been using (shell). I wonder if that makes any difference?
First of all, I'm happy to hear that you are also getting good results with MPG. We have not filled the tank yet (still about half full) from the original dealer full tank, but I can tell you that we will be using 10% ethanol (89 octane). Here where we live, ethanol is 10 cents per gallon cheaper than regular unleaded.
We have not said anything about the type of tires on the 400h. I don't know if it is the case nation-wide, but ours came in with Michelins. Is this the case for everybody? If not, I wonder if this makes any difference with gas mileage.
Mine came with goodyear.I asked the salesman about the michelin and he said if I want them I have to wait.If I did wait than the vehicle might also come with the dvd player which I dont want and maybe the mark levinson audio.I dont think this makes a difference about tire brand and performance,being that neither one is a brand x.As far as the mpg I dont know why everybody is complaining.This is not a toyota prius,so if the average is mid 20's I think we all spent our well. krellu
Comments
Welcome to the forum. I have read your posts with interest. This forum exists to hear the good and the bad about vehicles. Your input as an Owner of the new RX400h is appreciated. I also agree that if a person has to change his driving style to get decent mileage from a hybrid, that is not much of an advantage.
If buying a Hybrid forces someone to change "bad" driving habits and start using the instrumentation tools on the dash and paying more attention to the fact that "how a person drives" makes a HUGE difference in the amount of fuel used and wasted, then it is an advantage to EVERYONE who cares about pollution, fossil fuel waste, and the future of our world.
I appreciate your concerns. I am not saying that one needs to totally change his driving style, but let's face it. One can do a few simple things to attain better gas mileage. My main point above is that there is no way that anyone would get 19.3mpg in city driving unless something is drastically wrong. There is no way that the city driving will result in worse gas mileage than highway driving. I would like to hear from others out what their experiences have been to this point with the RX400h. From a personal point of view, my wife and I are very pleased. We are getting the quality vehicle that we were told we would be getting. Headless, you will hopefully get better gas mileage results sooner rather than later.
Regardless, I'm not defending aggresive driving or driving too fast...that, of course, is bad...and highly inefficient...
And if you think driving fast is bad, it's certainly safer than looking at an instrument panel while you drive! Better to always have your eyes on the road...no matter what you're driving...
I'm sure (and hoping), with time all will work out and my new RX will get over 26 mpg average...I can live with that...need to put on a few thousand miles first...
Don't think a driving change is needed....just a few modifications...(I hope that's all!)
Headless
Hmmm, turbochargers don't weigh 250 lbs. I suspect the RDX will get the same mileage as the CR-V
"Well duh. a traditional internal combustion engine is also at it's best when paired with a smaller, lighter more aerodynamic vehicle. What's your point??? Did you really think the RX400h would defy the laws of physics and get 40 or 50MPG?"
Thanks for making my point, which is that some people seemed to look forward to the SUV hybrids for gas mileage, thinking in line with the Prius. My original statements (way back last year), were that the hybridization of the SUVs would not net the kind of increases inherent in Prius-class vehicles. In other words, they aren't good for the planet (if you are into the "green" stuff). I realize they are better than large SUVs, but in terms of the environment, that is like saying a 250 lb bomb is better than a 500 lb bomb to the person being hit by one.
" The reason they didn't put a 4-cylinder into a RX400h is because they were smart. They knew(and have known for years) that very few people shelling out $40K+ for a luxury branded product in the US will buy a 4-cylinder."
You might check my post, I said "SUVs" intentionally; they don't even offer it in the Highlander Hybrid...
Well, not by much, since it is based on the CR-V. The differences:
Head room: Equal
Leg room: RX has 1 more inch in front, and 3 inches less in the rear
Shoulder Room: Rx has one additional inch front and rear
Cargo: Rx has more with seats up - by 5 Cu Feet / 12 Cu Feet with seats down. (Rx wins this one).
Ground Clearance: CR-V - by one inch more clearance
The RX is about 3 inches more in wheelbase and length, 2 inches more in width.
The CR-V weighs in at 3500 lbs with AWD, while the ICE only RX weighs 4065 lbs. (Wouldn't be fair to compare weight of the Hybrid, due to the batteries)
So the RX is larger, but not by much - on the outside. If I slide those CR-V seats forward to make the same rear legroom as the RX, the CR-V goes to about 40 Cu feet with the rear seats up. So while the outside is larger on the RX, the insides are very similar in capability.
I wouldn't normally compare these two vehicles, because one is a luxury class and one a standard class, but the Acura RDX will probably be similar in size and weight.
And, no, I'll never "break even". If I drive 10,000 miles per year, I'll use 400 gallons +/- vs. the 660 I use now. So I'll save 260 x at least $2.50 per year (I assume gas prices will actually average quite a bit more, but I'm certain I'll averager $2.50) so that's $650 a year in gas savings. 5 years, I save $3000+... I don't even know what the hybrid premium is, after adjusting for the options, but whatever....
I go from 15-16 MPG to ~25MPG (and maybe I do better) and take tons of emissions out of the environment, fill up less often, do a little something for the planet, sleep better, etc.
To me, that's worth a few bucks per month.
Also, I believe the savings (fuel consumption) is more so rated as a percentage over the standard engine in the same vehicle. So you can't really compare an RX Hybrid to a Precis or a Hybrid/Turbo CR-V, etc.
I posted this link in another board but it may be more fitting here;
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Several years ago I purchased a new 2003 Prius.
It does not achieve the advertised EPA MPG ratings nor did I expect it would. According to the onboard computer it averaged 43MPG for the last 7394 miles, 95% in city. Odometer indicates 17119 miles since it rolled off the showroom floor. 405.151 gallons to travel a total of 17119 miles gives us 42.253MPG. Guess that computer is pretty accurate.
This morning I noted that the average MPG reading on my 2001 AWD RX300 is 17.2MPG. That's very likely at least a 3,000 mile average if not as much as 5,000 miles. It very likely includes several highway trips of 200 to 300 miles. To put that into context that is about the MPG we could get in our 1992 Jeep Cherokee Limited with the I6 motor with purely highway miles.
We get ~22MPG in the RX300 for pure highway travel.
Not all that bad, all things considered.
So, 20-24MPG in city for the RX400h is about a 20% to 40% MPG improvement over my 2001 AWD RX300.
Also not bad.
But.
RX400h highway cruise MPG....
When I first bought the prius I noted that the batteries continued to be used even at a constant highway speed. On a trip to Portland from Seattle, ~150 miles, other than driving HP, the ICE needed to be used at least 4 times to bring the batteries back up to a charged state.
This made no sense to me so I bought the Prius manuals to begin looking into the possibility of disconnecting the batteries during highway trips to extend the MPG rating.
NOT POSSIBLE!
The Prius CVT, Constantly Variable Transmission, is not the same one most of us are familiar with. Basically the CVT in the Prius and the RX400h is simply a differential, very much like the one found in many transfer cases of an early 4X4.
The ICE drives one input and the electric motor drives the other input. The rate at which the output shaft turns is the "sum" of the two inputs.
The bottom line is that the electric motor MUST be used at all times, even at a constant highway speed. The "front" electric motor in the RX400h determines the CVT "gear" ratio. And yes, that is detrimental, possibly highly detrimental, to highway fuel economy.
But not really a bad compromise if the object is to attain stellar in city, stop and go traffic, fuel economy and ultra-low emissions.
Got that?
IN CITY ULTRA-LOW EMISSIONS..........!!!
Think Los Angeles.
So, my mind is made up, my next vehicle will be a new 2006 AWD RX330 (350??) with air suspension. That's provided, of course, that the engine hesitation symptom is overcome by then.
A hose is connected to the tailpipe to collect the engine exhaust.
The amount of carbon in the exhaust is measured to calculate the amount of fuel used during the test.
This is more accurate than using a fuel gauge.
A hybrid on their dyno is going to readings that don't match actual fuel consumption since different amounts of electrical energy will be used. For example suppose they did an "in town" test with full battery and very little use of the gas engine, mileage would appear to be higher, since carbon emissions would be minimal. A long highway drive that mostly uses the engine and sucks power out to charge the battery could even make mileage look worse. Its not likely that these two effects would cancel each other out to get to real world mileage.
For those with more time here's the URL for a restricted Google search on fuel economcy.gov about electric hybrids.
But it might be used for regeneration at any speed.
Let's keep the discussion here focused on the 400h and how the shakedown cruises are going!
That's even below the I4 Camry is it not??
The Toyota Corolla is an I4 compact sedan and its rated at 30/38 with the automatic and 32/41 with the stick.
Sorta missed their target didn't they??
Question #1 - I got hosed, didn't I.
Question #2 - They threw in "Xzilon" coating for the car for free. (900.00 value?) What does anyone know about Xzilon? It sure makes the paint look great.
I still have about a month or so before I get my promised SUV at MSRP. If they tried to do to me what they have done to you I would simply walk away and buy the RX 330 from a different dealer. I will have my Lexus 2000 RX 300 to sell since the trade-in will be insulting. Any ideas where I should sell this? The prices on E-Bay look very tempting at about 15K.
Second, you have recourse...
Contact Lexus and file a complaint against your dealership...Lexus does not allow dealers to 'upcharge' for vehicles...that is in violation of Lexus corporate policies and doesn't make Lexus look good! I would definitely complain as you've paid about 10k more than you should have (especially for a car that isn't going to do what it says anyway...that's another topic though!)...
Third...you don't need a coating on your car and I doubt they put one on...Lexus has excellent paint processes...I would think anything additional would be almost bad for the paint job...it needs to breath a bit...to prevent corrosion!
Take action...you have a right to do so!
Headless
That's why the hwy MPG vs city is inverse to a normal vehicle.
Cruising along the highway at a reasonably constant speed still requires the use of the battery with no ability to recharge except via the ICE.
I wonder if the hybrids need a third foot pedal, an extra one so the driver can "tell" the system that it's okay to coast down rapidly, as rapidly as possible using only the regeneration components.
Or maybe have the first inch of travel of the brake pedal reserved for this.
Can a Hybrid be a "performance" vehicle?
I am convinced that this vehicle brings the best of both worlds (great performance and surpringly good gas mileage).
Maybe with the batteries FULL of fuel at the beginning and totally empty at the end....
That one goes directly into the chad bucket.
As far as blue tooth...I have a treo 650 with Cingular...works like a charm...downloaded entire phone book (contacts list) and set up 1-touch numbers...very cool!
One thing...the treo 650 only uploads 'home' numbers, so if you need another number uploaded (mobile, work), you have to label it as home, do a single upload...etc...takes a bit of time, but not a big problem as the overall function is great...
While driving, if you get a call, the car answers...stereo mute automatically, as is navigation..can still view though...
Headless
Perhaps this is being too premature but at this point if someone asked me if they should buy one of these, I would advise them to wait until Lexus figures out some of this stuff. I am confident they eventually will but in the meantime my need to feel environmentally responsible isn't much being fulfilled. :mad:
What if, for some odd reason, some hybrids are 'tuned' differently so that the batteries run more than the gas motor...this would help mpg a lot, and probably not affect performance as electric motors produce more torque/acceleration anyway...
Anyone think that although we're driving the same vehicle, something's different between them?
All these cars came from Japan....is it possible that thinks were tweaked between the first several thousand that were sent here?
Headless
It appears to me as if the V6 is highly inefficient, or just straining too much to get the vehicle and all its weight going...
Those of you hitting 30 mpg, I simply cannot accept that if we're driving the same vehicle...it's not a question of some of us being 'non-believers'...it has to do with driving as closely as possible to what you're describing and still getting almost 8 mpg less...something's off with that...
I need to get this thing on the open road and drive it a few hundred miles at one time...next weekend I'm gonna take this thing and really open it up...try to loosen it up a little...I'll try different speeds on the highway and see what the mileage differences are...I'm just afraid I'll fall asleep if I drive at 55 mph...this car is pretty darn comfortable!
Headless
Headless
No, a 4-cylinder turbo engine won't add 250 lbs to a RDX. But if you think you will see the RDX come in at a similar weight to the CRV you're kidding yourself! First of all, the RDX is probably going to be based on the next generation CR-V. Right there you can bet the CRV will gain some weight. Second, the RD-X will have luxury market level equipment, which means more features, more safety features, will be quieter(which goes back to things like added sound insulation & thicker glass). And then you can watch the RDX pack on a few hundred additional pounds!
I just can't stop wondering if cyclone's car is accelerating to like 10 mph without gas whereas my gas motor kicks in at 5 mph...this would make huge changes to efficiency...or, when I hit the pedal lightly while at 30 mph, my gas motor goes on whereas cyclone's electric motor kicks in a bit...this again, a big difference...
How does on compare/contrast...if the 'timing' is off even a little, you could be talking a 20% difference easily...I don't think the battery would drain that much more...more performance comes from electric torque anyway, so more battery use for acceleration from stop would make sense!
Headless
During coastdown, partial throttle or none, the regeneration system will activate and begin to charge the batteries. It will also begin to charge the batteries if you have cruise control on and the car begins to overspeed, say on a downhill slope.
The exception to this is if you choose to use actual engine braking. In that case the engine remains coupled to the driveline to attain true compression braking. The regeneration "cycle" will still be working, but with the engine compression contributing substantially to the rate the vehicle slows not as much power will go into the batteries.
Actual BRAKING.
I can only guess, really. It is my impression that with very light pressure on the brake pedal most of the "braking" is the result of the drag created by the regenration effects. The heavier you depress the brake pedal the more actual frictional braking kicks in.
I do need to take some longer trips with this car to check it out more...I did about a 50 mile road test, but was not too happy...then again, I was around 75 mph for most of the trip so efficiency was compromised...argh!
Short trips do seem to not allow the engine/battery to warm up sufficiently...I guess it goes with the temperature thing too...the car likes warmer temperatures...this evidently applies to the car liking to be warmed up internally as well...
If you accelerate from a stop going down hill, the gas will kick in later than if you are going up hill..it depends on the need...
My RX will always have the gas motor on when I accelerate at speeds of 25 mph...no exceptions...I simply don't think the computer is programmed to allow for electric acceleration once moving 'that' fast...of course, when you take your foot off the gas, it'll coast and your mileage will go up....
If you can get to 10 mph with 'normal' acceleration (not grandma stuff), I'm jealous...that would mean your car is more efficient than mine...and I honestly think they're all the same!!! However, when accelerating from a stop, when I hit the pedal a little more than touching it, the gas will kick on...I wonder, being you drive a longer time, if the gas motor is desensitized a little as the car warms up...this would allow for more electric motor useage....hmmmmmm...better efficiency...
If not anything else, this is certainly an interesting $50,000 experiment...let's hope the end results (a few thousand miles down the road) reveal the ability to keep good mileage while having fun driving the car!
Good night for now...
Headless
player which I dont want and maybe the mark levinson audio.I dont think this makes a difference about tire brand and performance,being that neither one is a brand x.As far as the mpg I dont know why everybody is complaining.This is not a toyota prius,so if the average is mid 20's I think we all spent our well.
krellu
In mixed city/highway driving, a regular RX330 owner probably gets about 18MPG.