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Comments
I never heard any one concede anything about interior volume. A Titan Crew Cab has 126 cubic feet of volume while a super crew F-150 has only 124 cubic feet.There is an inch more head room front and back and almost an inch more legroom in a Titan versus an F-150.
As for the bed, I'm still looking for kc comparisons. But on crew v super crew: according to Car and Driver {length, width} F-150 super crew 67.0, 62.5 Titan Crew 67.1, 63.8
no sir. the titan king cab bed is 6'7". the crew cab is 5'7". both longer than the ford short bed.
also, the only dimension inside where the f150 has an advantage is in rear head room.
TITAN F150
Head Room: Front 41.0 inches 40.9 inches
Head Room: Rear 38.9 inches 39.6 inches
Leg Room: Front 41.8 inches 41.3 inches
Leg Room: Rear 33.0 inches 32.7 inches
He was comparing the F150 he drove (and bought?) to the Titan he test drove. If a customer wants to compare products this way (comparing what's available), you can't just say, "you are wrong, sir." I know you would then say "you can't compare apples with oranges", but, you see, there lies the truth why F150 is more successful than Titan.
When a customer wants an "apple", Ford dealer will say, "I've got 10 of them, which one do you like?", while Nissan dealer would say, "Sir, believe me, what you really want is an orange, and I have the best orange around town."
As to your resale value non-answer, a blue-oval guy will tell you this: when you compare resale price to MSRP, yes almost all domestics are worse than imports, that is a fact; but when you compare resale price to actual transaction price, they are not much different. Once in a while, the domestic may even come out ahead if the import was bought over MSRP.
Of course you know all of these, you just wouldn't tell your custmer.
as far as resale value, the titan SHOULD have better resale. transaction prices on comparable trucks are still to the nissan's advantage, even with ford giving $3000 on the supercab models. nissan products hold value better than ford overall other than diesel super duty trucks, which nissan doesnt have anyway.
comparing vehicle to vehicle:
focus v sentra...sentra
taurus v altima...altima (big time)
maxima v crown vic...maxima (big time)
armada v expedition...armada (we've had 3 used ones already)
pathfinder v explorer...pathfinder (even with an outdated design)
quest v freestar...quest (big time)
murano/xterra v escape...nissans
titan v f150...we dont know yet...but history should hold true.
those of us in the car business know that a transaction price has nothing to do with the resale value. the titan will be worth $xx,xxx in 5 years. if someone was stupid enough to pay over MSRP, then thats their own fault...not a result of resale value.
You can buy a Titan for the same discount under MSRP (from a dealer) than you can a F-150. The difference is the rebate that also gets tacked on from Ford. Yes the Titan has them too, but they are almost always smaller than the Ford.
So far, 67-72% of F-150 sales are higher trim models (hence, more profit), compare that to the previous generations 52-55%.
Secondly, it's been already a year since the F-150 was released so the higher rebates are expected. Why the rebate? It gets buyer's in the door, and once they are in the sales floor, there's a large chance they might walk out with something.
Also, financing options. If you slap on that rebate as a down payment, remove it from the initial price, or pocket it, you have options. Same with 0% financing for 5 years... Get's people through the door, but there's only a cetain percentage of those who qualify... As for the other's, they are stuck with a higher rate. But once sitting down looking over the paperwork, again...a large chance they will take it even if they don't qualify for the 0% APR.
Again, options, marketing, stradegy. Each manufacturer has their way of doing things. Ask Saturn how well there sales have been since for years they weren't able to offer rebates on their vehicles, not to offend prior consumer's. And what they have done now to counter-act that issue.
well, with FMCC, as long as you are over a 600 beacon (85% of the public), you QUALIFY.
resale is a very subjective figure. If you get a deal like I did, it's not much of an issue IMHO. I believe the big three have such a soft MSRP because there are uninformed people out there who will buy without doing their homework. I think that demographic fits the big three auto buyers best.
Gotta say, when comparing my F150 brochure to that of the Titan, the demensions are very difficult to compare in some catagories. One area that sticks out to me is the hip room which is 4" greater in the F150. I believe this is what made me feel roomier in the Ford.
Peace
I'm keeping my GMC.
that sucks when that happens.
next time try going to FORD.com; build your vehicle exactly to your specifics and then plug in your zip code - the web site will show you any matches, or near matches in your area. If you have few dealers in your area, then use a zip code from the nearest big city.
This will eliminate the senerio that you ran into.
It was just a coincidence but it was the same guy who found the FX4 in the LA area. You would think there would be a lot more of them with all the options.
I have only 42k on the GMC. I think I'll keep it for a while. I really didn't want to give up the the power and capacity of the 2500 HD. Ford is going to be releasing new Superduties soon. Maybe I'll look at them.
So, it appears that the race is between the Ford and the Nissan. The article failed to mention what the (also ran) Tundra sales were doing this year, despite the alleged upsizing of the truck.
Source; Detroit Free Press - Autos. www.freep.com/money/autonews/titan28_20040628.htm
Interesting to note, Nissan just dispatched 200 quality controlling engineer's to Tennessee to analyze why the quality of the vehicles produced there have been so abysmal. Since the Quest, Armada and Titan rated last(by JDPower survey) in each of their segments.
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=05601966
That'll be good news for those from http://www.titantalk.com/ and hopefully remedy their problems.
try again.
im sure you will get the right state EVENTUALLY.
Anyhow, I see where my error was, so I wasn't totally off the mark... The engineer's are also being sent to Smyrna Tenn, as I had stated which is where I got confused.
Anywhich way, vehicles still have quality problems, even if I got the state wrong.
They are originally dispatching these engineer's to the Canton plant where the Armada, Quest, Titan are being built to address quality issues as the article states.
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=05601966
So no, the Titan is NOT fine.
can't say that's good or bad, but it's not Mexico as some were suggesting.
I've got a Honda and F150; both made in the USA, both seem to have excellent fit and finish which has as much to do with design for manufacturability as it does with workmanship.
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Market share is NOT down for Silverado and RAM, so the Detroit Free Press article is blatantly incorrect. Both are up. The fact that sales growth is less for Chevy and Dodge than the F-150 IS NOT evidence that the Titan has affected Silverado and RAM since the NADA has reported that almost 44% of all trades for Titans have been full size Ford PUs, and another 35% have been small or mid-size pick-ups. If anything, the Titan has affected the growth of the new F-150.
The real news is that the totally underwhelming Nissan Frontier is still outselling the Titan!!!
MAKE...................YTD '04....YTD '03
Ford Truck F Series -- 358,034 -- 328,134
Chevrolet Truck Silverado & CK -- 270,920 -- 265,413
Dodge Truck Ram -- 178,764 -- 177,186
GMC Truck Sierra -- 81,871 -- 75,070
Toyota Truck Tacoma -- 66,200 -- 62,016
Ford Truck Ranger -- 73,300 -- 91,845
Chevrolet Truck Colorado -- 40,085 -- 000000
Dodge Truck Dakota -- 45,563 -- 49,599
Toyota Truck Tundra -- 42,276 -- 38,831
Chevrolet Truck Avalanche -- 35,457 -- 34,439
Nissan Truck Frontier -- 27,522 -- 24,484
Nissan Truck Titan -- 26,711 - 000000
GMC Truck Canyon 2,572 - 8,980 -
Chevrolet Truck S-10 -- 7,385 -- 57,086
Mazda Truck Regular Cab -- 4,747 -- 6,533
Cadillac Escalade EXT -- 4,240 -- 3,912
Chevrolet Truck SSR 777 - 4,812 - 000000
GMC Truck Sonoma -- 2,345 -- 13,710
Lincoln Blackwood - - - 153
Not a big shock since, a) there are more Ford PUs out there than other brands and, b) The Titan took aim directly at the F-150 when it was designed, so it would appeal to Ford owners. Whether they stay with Nissan or come back will be known in the years to come, but the dismal sales of the Titan overall speaks volumes. Not sure I see where the Freep was all that incorrect, Dusty... Really surprised to see so much defensiveness in your post - you are usually very even handed in your writings.
Throw into the equation that the GM trucks are currently one of the older designs (and still another 2 years before the new one's bow out), might be another factor in the equation.
So there's another way of looking at it.
That said, Titan is a nice truck at a good price, with size, power, features. There's no reason NOT to consider it.
If anything looks to have gone stagnant, consider Tundra has been out 4 years now, and in just a few months, Titan is already at 68% of Tundra YTD.
I really think what we're seeing are the old paradigms from Nissan and Toyota, where Toyota continues to offer slow-to-change bland models with known reliability, and Nissan continues to offer more power, bang, brawn and less refinement and the usual over the top Nissan styling. The market seems to be saying to both, "so what?"
I'm glad to see Nissan in the game actually, and wouldn't mind seeing Honda jump in, although I think they will wisely see diminishing returns. Right now you've got Ford, DC and GM all making pretty popular trucks and SUVs. For Nissan or Toyota owners to be crowing about their full size truck market share (because they bought one?) is pretty stupid realy.
And: The only reason the Japanese build cars and trucks on US soil is their sensitivity to our import quotas and tariffs. It's good strategy on their part, and does provide (non-union) jobs generally, but it's not altruistic on their part.
no, its taken aim at the tundra and ram. those were the original targets. the appeal to ford buyers is nice, but its a side-effect.
"the dismal sales of the Titan overall speaks volumes."
there is nothing dismal. the 1st year (2/3ds of a year) target was 50k units. they are well on their way, considering almost none sold in december or january.
the tell-tale will be the 2005. with a full year of production and sales, they are targeting 100k units.
And I paid no attention to Titan at the introduction except to wonder...where is it? When I finally got around to stopping and looking at one 3 weeks ago, I knew next to nothing about it. But what seemed evident, was a plentiful supply, already a factory rebate, and dealer discounting. That didn't strike me as a particularly encouraging sign.
Being able to drive off in a nicely equipped King Cab in mid trim level, with 4x4, towing package could set you back $25-27k, and I don't see how you could lose. But I think anyone would be taking a huge gamble to spend $41k on the Crew Cab model with sunroof, navigation system. I think you could see HUGE depreciation and upside down difficulties if you wanted out of it early. The quality control issues, Nissan will get a handle on, but for now, I suspect the complicated systems of the loaded Crew Cab models will see them in the shop often in the first year.
The other comment, and it's just my opinion, is that Titan, (and Nissan) will never nurture the perception of refinement and quality as Toyota. If true, then they go to bat against Ford, GM and DC on the playing level of styling, features, and horsepower, but only equal quality. <-- That could be a hard sell.
You really only need to look no farther than the Frontier, to see that the consumer is not wildly enthusiastic in large scale acceptance of Nissan trucks.
As for the F150 Ford, it looks to me like another blockbuster success, and I predict wildly enthusiastic acceptance of the new styling, as usual of late.
NV,
The statement that "while their (RAM & Silverado) market share is down..." is categorically and profusely false. Both the RAM and Silverado have increased market share in the last two years.
The writer in this case is just plain ignorant of facts or exceedingly sloppy. RAM and Silverado crossovers make up the smallest percentage of Titan sales with the exception of compact cars. To say that with the Titan's pitiful sales performance and with 43.7% of Titan's penetration coming from the F-series alone, only a newspaper reporter with mutated brain cells could rationalize RAM and Silverado sales being hurt more by the Titan.
And this silly notion that the Titan was built to benchmark the market-leading F-series Ford in every measurable category, then turn around and suggest that RAM and Tundra were the real targets is only a face saving way for water-carrying Titan lovers to excuse that vehicle's exceptionally lousy sales performance.
The RAM aside, the thought of converting 30,000 Tundra owners into Titans is about as ridiculous as trying to sell icemakers to Eskimos. If that was in fact the grand strategy at Nissan I would suggest that they consider some other business, like lawn and garden equipment.
The next time you see a used Tundra (yeah, right...) at a Nissan store, or any other used competitive model for that matter, ask them where the truck actually came from. I'll bet you find that it just as likely was acquired through auction or wholesaler, or traded with another dealer.
So great is the Titan that Nissan can't even outsell their own antiquated Frontier with them.
Dusty
go back to before the titan was launched, and you will see where i posted about the target being toyota and dodge. nissan was saying this LONG before the truck came out...before even the armada came out. the media has compared it more to the f150 because of the awards both have won, and the fact that both trucks are at the top of the game.
nissan ACTUALLY targeted toyota and dodge from day 1. this is an indisputable fact.
also, the article said that GM and dodge GREW THE LEAST out of the big 3.
if you do the math, they DID lose market %.
2003: 2004:
total trucks: 1,237,031 1,272,804
f150 328,134 = 26.52% f150 358,034 = 28.12%
silverado 265,413 = 21.45% silverado 270,920 = 21.28%
ram 177,186 = 14.32% ram 178,764 = 14.04%
sierra 75,070 = 6.07% sierra 81,871 = 6.43%
tundra 38,831 = 3.13% tundra 42,276 = 3.32%
titan 26,711 = 2.10%
these are usind dusyk's numbers from post #690.
the ram and silverado are the only ones that are DOWN in market share.
even with the # of sales going up slightly, they lost market share due to the total truck market going up by almost 36,000 units.
as a matter of fact, it was almost a year before. who copied whom?
i think nissan had as much to do with the style of the f150 as the f150 had with the nissan.
My father worked for GM from the 50's to the 80's - we saw a new car in our driveway every year. If it weren't for the Japanese coming to the US in the 70's, I'm convinced that the big three would still be selling total crapola. There's no doubt that the american consumer should be thankful to the Japanese for uping the ante in quality, perfomance, cost, even providing jobs in the States.
I really don't see a lot of what could be called copying since pick-ups change a little every year, yet not that much in decades. The Nissan design engineers did a fine job of building a generic pickup, then adding what a lot of folks would like to do after market, like that nifty bed-rail system.
The goofey exterior is just to keep you from mistaking it for any other generic p.u.
Let's see, who's got a relationship with Nissan. Oh, now I remember. It's Ford. Ah, if we look at national statistics on dual ownership, we find that the most common dual is -- hmm, this is a strange coincidence -- Nissan and Ford! Lost in it's own obviousness is the fact that Nissan did benchmark the F-150 when designing the Titan. To say otherwise is as disingenuous as one could get. To say that the F-150 is the "2nd best truck" after Titan is, of course, compelling testimony from a salesman that sells both at the denegration of everything else. To realize that Titan has taken more away from F-150 than anything else, is logical. A dual store will use both product lines to work customers on the fence.
So, it is then, if it is really an "indisputable fact" that Nissan targeted the RAM and the Silverado -- both already a year old when the Titan came to market, it needs to be seen as the demeaning commentary it is for Titan could only project to capture customers from such a lowly product as RAM and Silverado. The fact that they haven't done so well at this seems even more demeaning.
>>>there is nothing dismal. the 1st year (2/3ds of a year) target was 50k units. they are well on their way, considering almost none sold in december or january.<<<
Oh, gosh, do I hear Bill Clinton saying, "I didn't’t have sex with that woman"? Maybe AutoNews got it wrong when they stated that, "Nissan launched its first full-sized pickup in December. It predicted sales of 100,000 Titans during its first full year on the market (post #589)."
Hmm. So now 50,000 was the predicted sales. Okay. Well, that still would put Titan in second place behind the Frontier, wouldn't it. How old is that Frontier platform again? Since 2004s will build-out sometime in October, maybe Nissan's got a fleet contract up it's sleeves with the Saudis for 60,000 or so units.
Dismal? Well let me say that if the Titan would have been a Dodge, a Chevy, or a Toyota, I'll bet that it would be declared "dismal."
When the F-150's Media kits went out, first thing it read in it's design stated, " styling cues borrowed from the Tonka concept", just as this year, the 2005 Super Duty media kits show the same thing... "borrows from the Tonka concept". Either way, they both borrowed from it.
All this talk about the "poor" styling of the Titan is mostly hogwash. I get many more people who comment on how good my truck looks over the F-150. But, to be fair, it is mostly a toss up between the Ram and the Titan.
For me, the F-150s look has finally started to grow on me - as long as it is painted two-tone to take away from the extra high sides.
As to quality, Ford has its problems too. On a recent trip of 5 hours, I passed 2 separate new F-150s getting towed (or loaded on a flat bed tow truck). I didn't see any other full sixed truck get this treatment. What was wrong with them? I have no clue. But they were obviously out of commision for some reason.
As to who Nissan is targeting? Who cares? The fact is Nissan will never sell as many trucks as Ford or GM. That doesn't mean their truck isn't as good. Sales figures don't tell the story.
In my opinion, though, the Titan is superior to the F-150 in more ways than a couple of gadgets. But that is my opinion and unlike many others in this thread, I don't think it is fact because I said it, it is just my opinion.
Bowke, keep up the good fight but remember, no matter what you say, these guys (or girls) just aren't listening and there is no way they are going to ever change their mind.
I am going to just continue to drive my problem free (except for the radio reception) Titan while the others here try to tell me how terrible and useless it is; and everytime somebody rolls down their window to tell me how great my truck looks or how much they like it (this happens constantly) I will refer them to ANT and the rest on this thread so they can be straightened out! :-)
i never said nissan didnt try to DESIGN like the f150. i said that the sales targets are dodge and toyota. to achieve this, they had to benchmark ford, i agree. but the target for sales has never been ford/gm.