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Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Hori believes that the poor sales of the new hybrids was due to the nearly 20 percent premium customers would have to pay for the ‘big electric appliance

    Based on the blog below sales of HH and RH are dismal in Japan. The Japanese are a bit too shrewd to fall for that ploy called "it is worth the hybrid premium for the performance".

    http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000543053589/

    and Toyota is beginning to worry that investing in both hybrid and normal gasoline/diesel powertrains for the same model will not pay off. Hori sees that Toyota would need to develop hybrid models that are unique, vehicles without a normal equivalent, in order for the hybrid to be successful.

    The above worry is valid! A Prius is a environmental status symbol. A hybrid Camry is a Camry unless you squint your eyes to decipher the hybrid logo on the car's rear end.
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    tomzpritomzpri Member Posts: 33
    I'm not surprised with the poor sales of the Hybrid Highlander and RX.

    I don't really undertand them or the Hybrid Accord or the upcoming Camry. They all have V6 engines which sort of defeats the purpose of the quest for the highest mileage.

    Also, at least in the case of the Hybrid Accord, the emissions of the hybrid Accord are actually worse than the big 06 Ford Explorer SUV. Go figure!?
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    tomzpritomzpri Member Posts: 33
    dewey

    here is the link to the newspaper article. It says the author of the article traveled to Japan as a guest of Toyota.

    Toyota to rethink hybrid strategy after poor sales of Highlander/RX400h
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Welcome to the forum and thank you for the links. That letter to Toyota from the ODI looks pretty serious. I don't think Toyota can throw that one in the round file.
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    andyandy Member Posts: 21
    the only hybrid that sells is the prius. that is b/c people who buy hybrids are doing to make a statement to everyone else (shallow if you ask me). Nobody can tell your RX or Highlander is a hybrid b/c it looks the same.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    That is a poor generalization. Some people by hybrids to save money on fuel. I am referring to the HCH and Prius.
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    tsotsitsotsi Member Posts: 98
    I've learned a lot following this HH forum -- what the HH is and what it isn't. More important, I've learned what a rip-off it is to buy a Toyota in Florida. I am pretty price conscious and have decided that it is worth an extra $3,000 to get a hybrid. What irks me is that in addition to the $3k, Florida dealers blithely add on thousands of dollars for stuff I don't want.

    What I am getting at is why worry about $3,000 for a hybrid when in Florida extra dealer fees and Toyoguard add over $1500? It appears that there are areas in the US -- like the northeast -- where Toyota dealers will start at the MSRP and work down. Next time I buy a new Toyota I will definitely go out of state.
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    tdnichtdnich Member Posts: 1
    One month ago I got a limited HH with around $1300 of port installed options on it for $1000 over Invoice.
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    markrsmith83markrsmith83 Member Posts: 30
    I believe that there are two types of people when it comes to this debate:

    1. Fuel Economy/Environmentally Friendly is my #1 consideration

    2. Any hybrid must be able to match my current vehicle's performance. Fuel Economy/Environmentally Friendly is a "nice to have".

    I actually fall somewhere in the middle. I want my vehicle to have the same performance/features as the vehicle that I drive today. However, I do care about the environment and I'm willing to pay a bit more to ensure a better future. To that end, I have installed solar panels on my roof and I pay slightly more for the little electricity that I buy from Green Mountain (as opposed to the local utility).

    Group 1 tends to look down their noses at group 2 - as if the guy driving his SUV on the highway is intentionally trying to harm the environment. This hurts the environmental cause in much the same way that PETA has hurt the animal rights cause - insulting the other side only inflames them.

    Additionally, group 1 is much smaller than group 2 in terms of sheer numbers.

    If this country is ever going to be able to mainstream environmental causes we have to make the solution palatable to the masses. People who have already chosen NOT to buy a Prius due to the size aren't gonna buy one because people shout "higher MPG" at them. You have to give them what they want.

    Put more simply - I didn't buy a Prius last year when I considered replacing the Jeep. I DID buy the HH.
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    markrsmith83markrsmith83 Member Posts: 30
    Around here, they're going for MSRP at best. The few dealers who have them on the lot or inbound are able to sell them quickly, so they're not gonna lower the price.

    The key to that I suspect is cancelled orders. Orders aren't being cancelled here.
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    nimhrodnimhrod Member Posts: 49
    Mark,

    Where is "around here?"
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    markrsmith83markrsmith83 Member Posts: 30
    Good point. Greater Trenton, NJ area - Mercer County NJ, Burlington NJ, Bucks County PA
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    Ken,how do they change wheelspeed when using the ICE motor.My impression is that the ICE motor is kept in a fairly narrow sweet spot-RPM wise,so there must be a way to change wheelspeed relative to ice speed.Most cars do it with transmissions-gearboxes-clutches and low to top is maybe 3X-another 5X from idle to redline.How do they do it with the HH?(the electric motors have such a broad torque range they don't need gear changes-just ad more RPMS)Thanks.Charlie. PS I vaguely remember some early CVT having a giant cone like pulley with some sort of belt sliding up and down to give a huge number of ratios??I went online to look ,but only found dinky cartoons that didn't show or tell"how".
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    downthehighwaydownthehighway Member Posts: 19
    Hey, Charlie,

    Did you know that you can get certain HH accessories that apparently are not available to buyers of the Yankee persuasion?

    According to Kelleybluebook.com (www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.ncoe?kbb.IL;082466;IL091&60914&&;;nc;&0&06T...), the following are "Available Only in Gulf States":
    - W2 Dash, Molded Applique Limited
    - DG Door Edge Guards, Color-Keyed
    - RK Emergency Assistance Kit
    - EI Entertainment System, Headrest DVD
    - FS Fabric Guard
    - FF Fender Flares
    - M5 Floor Mats, Carpeted F&R
    - GE Mirror Upgrade, Night Vision
    - T2 Paint, Two-Tone [Sounds cool, especially if you can pick your own colors]
    - PP Parking Sensors
    - PV Permavin Glass Etch & Ltd Warranty
    - HD (a certain kind of heated seat)
    - SB SIde Steps, Bar
    - SA1 Custom Stripe
    - DH Trailer Hitch Receiver, Drop
    - WL and LK Wheel Locks
    - WD Wind Deflector
    - maybe one or two others that I didn't understand well enough to include.

    And there you have it. You enjoy yourself now, hear?
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    Ha,HA,very funny.You have stumbled on Gulf States Toyota's favorite trick.They have run this for 20+ years.They put together packages of essentially"air" like the fabric guard,or worse absolute garbage like the "molded applique"(which is stick on fake wood) and then they charge hilarious prices for them.This is why the last 3 vehicles I bought have been from TX,TX and NJ.All the local dealers-all makes- in New Orleans are cut from the same cloth and have adopted Gulf States add on junk.This is what we have to fight thru in the Deep south because the dealers treat us like fools.Internet departments and the internet have been really great for us.
    Thanks for the comic relief.Charlie
    PS Occasionally something useful-or at least not useless-like lighter aluminum wheels instead of steel-slips into one of their Dist pks-but that is rare.It is usually junk-cheap leather seats etc,and ugly BS-molded applique.
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    bean88bean88 Member Posts: 14
    I'm with markrsmith83, I'm kinda in the middle - I needed something to replace my '91 Volvo wagon but it had to be large enough to carry 5 adults comfortably plus all the hauling that I do as a woodworker and homeowner plus an occasional trailer rental. I could never justify an SUV before because I think the poor mileage is wasteful and probably would have ended up with another Volvo wagon (which have a little less passenger room and have poorer mpg). Then along came the HH which has power, is very quick and has all the creature comforts that I want. I for one am very happy with my HH AWD LTD and my wife and I love the NAV even though I thought it was a rip-off when I originally got it. Now I doubt we'd ever buy another car without one.

    At work, all of the guys I work with (a bunch of engineers with jeeps, jimmies, explorers, volvos and yukons) are both impressed by the HH's quickness and are envious of the mileage. So while the EPA mpg numbers of the HH aren't quite what Toyota promised, it is still at least 20% better than most other SUVs and faster too. I plan on keeping my HH a long time even if it means a battery change. I do admit being pleasantly relieved to hear that the battery costs are much more reasonable than originally predicted. Even so, I'm not really worried about breaking even...I could always find a cheaper car if I wanted to (or more expensive for that matter)...but the HH meets my size needs and I like the V8 performance at better than V6 mpg.

    For all of you waiting until next year to potentially get a bigger tax savings, that's fine if it makes you happy but I am driving an HH now and that's what makes me happy.

    Personally, I'll support anything reasonable that will reduce this country's dependency on foreign oil whether it be fuel cells, hybrids, biofuels or (gasp) high gasoline prices because I think we end up paying for the dependency in other ways.
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    I will probably wait till jan 1,but I expect that the dealers can count,and they will make a mighty effort to take a big bite out of any $2600 credit.I fully expect that $2000 markups over MSRP will appear(re appear).You might be able to make a deal before Jan1.The Prius will be the car that will really benefit.Dealers will be back to 2004 with $3000 markups.
    This is a fairly typical Rep boondoggle-huge benefits for oil companies,subsidies for foreign car manu.Hmmm,bit grumpy today,better finish my coffee.
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    otis1otis1 Member Posts: 142
    I don't think the dealers will necessarily add a markup (but some here and there may not surpise me). Instead, I think dealers that will be discounting in December will go back up to MSRP in January. I do think by March or April, the demand of those waiting to take advantage of the tax credit will be met and inventories of HH will accumulate again leading to more discounting.

    I was thinking about this, and I think that this tax bill will get some of the people that were "on the fence" to make the move and buy a hybrid. But I personally think the majority of people that take advantage of it will be people who were going to buy a hybrid in 2005 but put off their decision or current hybrid owners either looking to get a 2nd hybrid or trade in their old one. If you think about it, this law fails to get "new" people into hybrids.
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    ulevulev Member Posts: 57
    Not bitterness...just frank realization.
    I am an auto 'gearhead' from way back...waited 6 mos. for a decent price on a 1972 240Z when they were all still called Datsuns...one of my 'best ever cars' BTW.

    This purchase of a HH 4wi non-Ltd w/ package #1 was the first (and I hope only) vehicle that I actually paid MSRP....$36,464.00+tax... in my life...
    I totally agree with your statement that Toyota should give 'early adapter's a break in price. But I went further yet, when I rec'd the Toyota new car survey, I told Toyota that after buying THREE previous Toyota's 82' Supra, 90' 4 Runner, 2000 Tundra and 2006 HH some CREDIT should be given to the Toyota 'Die Hards' that have purchased several previous products. Of course, to date I've rec'd no response...
    As to the Govt subsidies issue, I only wanted to point out that the AMT has been the GREAT EQUALIZER to the Bush tax cuts that no one seems to realize,and is in many cases.... a 'wash'... tax wise.
    Unfortunately, the 'working stiff'' still gets 'stiffed' either way, which was the point I was attempting to make, be it Hybrids or the straight tax write-off of the over 6,000 lb. vehicles (Escalades, Hummers, etc) " Corporations do it all the time."
    IT NEVER PERCOLATES DOWN TO THE WORKING CLASS...sorry, got carried away.

    So thats my point, er. points...
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    otis 1,I disagree,of course.The Prius will be the worst gouge since it is such a hit mpg wise,and gas prices are going up daily.I think the majority of the dealers will gouge-or will attempt to gouge-on the HH.We will see if they are successful.I can't see them not gouging.At MSRP -$3000 rebate a HH and a H ICE will be very close in cost.-too close-for a dealer.We'll see.Thanks.Charlie PS Right about the mand. tax.Now those very affluent whiners are complaining that they won't get a HH credit??Heck,they in effect benefitted from the recent tax cuts-that is why they are in the Mand tax "bracket" because the cuts made itemizing pointless.My heart bleeds for them!!
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    otis1otis1 Member Posts: 142
    You may be right about dealers gouging on Priuses. despite short or no wait lists for the prius, I think there's still a healthy demand for the prius- so we'll just see how the prius market fairs next year (although being the optimist i am ;) , I still see prices leveling off in the spring).

    I don't think there will be gouging on the HH. Demand seems to be softening now for these cars. Unclaimed HH's are sitting on some lots for a month instead of 1 day (and this is before news of the tax credit broke). There'll be an inital surge of people wanting to buy the HH who waited for the credit to kick in, but after that demand is met, sales will go soft again. Who knows, if gas prices suddenly surge (I said surge, not gradually increase), we may see an increase in demand for hybrids leading to reduced inventories. So if you want to hedge your bet, you may consider trying to negotiate a better deal this fall, giving up some of your anticipated tax credit money. After labor day, gas prices traditionally pull back a little which may hurt some hybrid sales.
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    I am sorta thinking along those lines.Try to get maybe $2500 off list in late Sept(Carmax offers $2000 right now,but I'm 1100 miles away),and be satisfaied with that and the $500 off taxes.Come Jan 1,they will be full list with the ~$3000 tax credit.Could be a wash,if I could find one locally for $31500(now they want $33,300-a long way from $31500 for PK 1 FWD).I would be happy with $2500 off now.
    Well,I'm no good at predicting the future.Thanks.Charlie
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    toyotakentoyotaken Member Posts: 897
    I'm certainly not an engineer that worked on this particular vehicle, but if you drive one of these, you do hear the engine working harder (more rpm's) when you're stepping on the gas harder accelerating or as you go faster at highway speeds. So you're correct, that it stays in it's more efficient range, but it still varies and as it does, the electricity that it sends to the MG1 and MGr drive motors will also vary. The other way they can vary the amount of extra "juice" going to the motors is to re-direct some of it towards the batteries. When the ICE engine is running, not all of the engergy has to go either to the batteries or the drive motors exclusively, some can go to both sources.

    BTW, the "true" CVT transmission is exactly how you describe, with a steel belt between two pulleys that are "V" shaped and narrow or widen as needed to vary "gearing". There is no such device on the HH or Prius for that matter, just the Drive motor(s) themselves.

    Hope this helps.

    Ken
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    Ken,thanks.
    carz89-the V-6 highlander wouldn't get 19 on your commute(CR say it gets 13 mpg city).You have a rough commute if the little-maybe 3000 lbs-manual trans Rav 4 gets 16-18.They-RAV4- get 4 cyl Camry type mpg.My Pilot-mpg much like a Highlander-get 12-14 in heavy city-AC(new orleans) driving.I would kiss the bumper of a 4400 lb SUV that got me 20+ in my city driving.Thanks.Charlie
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    c2rosac2rosa Member Posts: 76
    Interesting article on quality issues with the Toyota Highlander Hybrid.

    http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan11e_20050811.htm
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "the V-6 highlander wouldn't get 19 on your commute(CR say it gets 13 mpg city).You have a rough commute if the little-maybe 3000 lbs-manual trans Rav 4 gets 16-18.They-RAV4- get 4 cyl Camry type mpg.My Pilot-mpg much like a Highlander-get 12-14 in heavy city-AC(new orleans) driving.I would kiss the bumper of a 4400 lb SUV that got me 20+ in my city driving."

    The maximum weight Highlander is just under 4000 lbs. What would an I4 highlander get? That vehicle weighs 3500 lbs and gets EPA 22 / 27. For a commute, is the V6 really needed?
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    typesixtypesix Member Posts: 321
    My 2004 fwd 4cyl Highlander will get 19 mpg in city driving using a light foot and anticipating lights.
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    sunbyrnesunbyrne Member Posts: 210
    Feh, what a horrible review. The Freep's auto staff has a long tradition of being Detroit homers. He obviously knows nothing about hybrids or how to drive them, and the implicit generalization that since he got 20 mpg on a single tank, everyone will always get that is laughable. His comments about the third row are also inane--some of us actually want a third row which is normally out of sight and intend it for occasional use with kids. I don't want a lumbering hulk with a full-time, full-sized third row. I would not in a million years buy a Trailblazer over a Highlander, hybrid or otherwise. He may have something with the trim issue, but none of the HHs I've seen have this problem. I'll take Toyota over Chevy on long-term quality every time...
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    Hey,copy this review and bring it along with you to the dealer when you go to bargain.Same story on the NYT and the west coast reviews.
    A trim element woudn't even show on my radar-I look for mpg,accel,safety,reliability,resale.Toyota-any Toyota or Honda will have it all over any Big 3 vehicle-and Japanese-German-Korean vehicle in most of these areas(not necessarily accel and safety)
    type6-thanks for the 4 cyl High real world mpg.I rarely see any real world numbers on it.Looks like it would be maybe 2-4 mpg under the HH in city.
    sunbyrne-thanks for the transmission link.Charlie
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    tomzpritomzpri Member Posts: 33
    http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan11e_20050811.htm

    Thanks for posting that review. Sort of a scary attitude from the Toyota representative!

    Oh yeah. They're all like that."

    That's how a Toyota spokesman responded when I pointed out loose, poorly fitted pieces in the company's high-profile, high-tech and high-priced Highlander gas-electric hybrid SUV.
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    bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Article mentioned that the ford freestyle had a roomier 3rd row and the gas mileage is rated as 20/27. Granted there's the quality advantage of a toyota but then the freestyle is a lot cheaper. Any opinions? I'd like to see a comparison between some of the crossover, 7 pass vehicles.
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    gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    Anybody debating between Ford and Toyota need not visit a local dealer. Please visit a local scrap yard first.

    There is no comparison. Americans workers are the best and most productive in the world but our managers (and leaders) are the most manipulative and incompetent. Nowhere is this more in evidence than DEEtroit, where they used to joke that engineering improvements weren't as important as perceptions of improvements. Every year we’d get the relocation of an ashtray for an extra $1000.

    That's what we got from the 50s till it was too late and now they're trying to play catch up . . . but still don’t get it. Once again, like the 80s, as the price approaches $3 a gallon again, our manufacturers are still building gas guzzlers like Hummers (which are being used on both sides of the planet to destabilize fuel prices). GM’s got no hybrids but are coming out with a sticker you can put on your car to make it look like one.

    One complaint about the HH is the 3rd row being too small. If you're going to move 7 adults for long distances then sure it doesn't work (and few do). But if you’ve got 7 folks in a car, chances are at least two of them are kids. It's perfect for kids and mine prefer there over the 2nd row even when there's one else in the car.

    For comparisons, try:
    http://www.autos.com/autos/suvs/midsize_suvs/reviews

    The only objective categories are
    MPG: 1st (normal H is second!)
    Resale 1st
    0-60: 2nd
    Safety 2nd

    Subjectively, the HH is not ranked for reviews (as there are none in but so far, so bad with DFP and NYT).
    Performance: 3rd (very confusing)
    Passenger Space: 1st
    The 4wd would be 2nd in off-road capability but it only lists the 2wd (that shows you how few SUVs are designed for off road).

    By the way, earlier someone had suggested this forum should only be for owners and that we’d know more. I think it’s important to have would-be and wont-be owners, too. They can be just as knowledgeable but even more objective. Once you plunk down change on a car, you go through a lot of self-assurance and revisionism. It’s good to have people here who are not justifying their purchase.
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    discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    By the way, earlier someone had suggested this forum should only be for owners and that we’d know more. I think it’s important to have would-be and wont-be owners, too. They can be just as knowledgeable but even more objective. Once you plunk down change on a car, you go through a lot of self-assurance and revisionism. It’s good to have people here who are not justifying their purchase.

    I just want to clarify and then "shut up" :)

    I did not propose a forum "should only for" owners. That is "exclusionary" and we have had too much of that already :). I am more interested in having an "Owner's Forum" so when a reader goes to read an article, he or she knows it is written by an owner rather than some reporter who may only have seen 1 car once.

    While some owners will be "revisionist", others will not, like me :) . Read the boards in Edmunds by owners of other cars and it is clear many owners are honest and will not mince words. So I will start with some gripes:

    1. Trunk space is just a tad too small. 2 or 3 more cubic feet would have been perfect for ourfamily.

    2. V6 should have cyclinder deactivation as someone here suggested once. It will save even more gas.

    3. 3-rd row seat is GREAT for our kids but optionally REMOVABLE would have been better because that frees up a bit more storage.

    4. Tire pressure monitoring should be standard on a car like this. What is Toyota thinking!? An inexcusable stupid ommission!

    5. Love to have slow hill descent assist, it would have moved the car a bit closer to a real 4x4.

    OTher than the above, I really cannot find more faults. You may think me "revisionist" but please check out the car yourself and read what other owners have to say, then decide for yourself. Do not just read news articles written by a reporter waiting to "stir up" some emotion just to sell a few more copies.

    It is irksome when reporters/reviewers who have never driven more than 100 miles in the car, or really having to use it, begin talking up a storm about the cars based simply on what they have read or heard or just seen in 1 vehicle. Worse yet, they start writing "value" judgement. A perfect example is that reporter who wrote about quality. Garbage in, garbage out.

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    gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    I think your reviews have been balanced and don't think you're revisionist (nor was I thinking of you when I said that). But I (and others) have been. It's human nature to justify.

    I'd want non-owners to feel welcome and encouraged them to post their reactions, even to just looking at the car.

    Early reviews (again of prototypes) had the pressure monitoring on the HH. Seems like T took a lot of stuff out of the proto before it hit the assembly line.
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    phoebeisisphoebeisis Member Posts: 121
    dicussion1-right about the 3rd row.If it were removable it would give that 2-3 cu ft-it would also drop 50 lbs(maybe 1% better city mpg).Same story on the lack of standard tire pressure monitors;mu cheapo bottom of the line Titan which sells for at least $13000 less than the cheapest HH has them.
    I'm still pretty impressed by the HH;I'm still holding my internal debate HH dump the Pilot(+15000) or Prius dump the Prizm(+20000).Thanks.Charlie
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    nsxwesnsxwes Member Posts: 84
    I simply cannot figure out a way to keep the third row seat belts from coming loose from the
    stow slots. I can see how they are suppose to work (and I am pretty confident that I have them in the way they are designed), but they hold only until I hit a reasonable bump and then they come loose. Anyone have the same problem? Suggestions?
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    bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    While I concur that Toyota quality in general beat Ford quality, for each company there are specific cars that are better or worse (ie Toyota Matrix quality has been pretty low), plus I don't think the differences in quality are all that big anymore like they were 10-20 years ago. It's not like 50% of all Fords will have a major problem within 50,000 miles compared with only 2% of Toyotas. Plus quality is only one factor when comparing vehicles. In general American vehicles have more interior space and for long road trips that's a huge factor. Plus when you look at quality differences, there's a difference between the quality of when you're sitting in the driver's seat and looking at the level of quality of your surroundings versus quality in terms of repair costs. If I'm satisfied with my interior quality environment (size, space, fit & finish, etc) then I'm willing to pay for a couple more alternator replacement in the long run, especially if the American vehicle is a lot cheaper. What I would not want to do is spend $10K more for a Toyota or any other high-quality-in-repair-terms vehicle unless there's more benefit other then less alternator changes in my future. So that's why I have my $25K Freestyle + my $9000K used Corolla rather then a single $35K SUV. But even if money wasn't an issue, if I'm going to buy a vehicle for long road trips, then I want something with lots of space inside and 7 adult pass capability even if I don't use it every day for that purpose. I never understood making not adding a few more inches to the length and a couple more in height to make the 3rd row useable. I guess it's just function following form instead of form following function.
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    molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    I actually think the Freestyle is a very good effort for Ford and it has decent value. Nothing wrong with it in my book.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "5. Love to have slow hill descent assist, it would have moved the car a bit closer to a real 4x4. "

    I thought the 4WD was electric on the rear wheels? If so, it is not suited for off roading anyway. Or is that just the Lexus? I think there is even a note in the Lexus owner's manual warning about this.

    What is the 4WD drive system?
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    discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    Gazguzler,

    Absolutely agree with you. When researching this car, I have enjoyed reading about writer/poster's concerns, thoughts, fears, all sorts of interesting issues. I have benefited greatly from everyone, so please post some more even if you are not an owner ! :)

    If owners too can post more gripes or accolades, I think it will help people who are researching this vehicle.

    Thanks for setting my words straight.
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    discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    We looked at the Freestyle and the Escape and the Explorer while researching a new car.

    The Freestyle is a nice car but while it meets most of our requirements, it did not quite match the HH's interior finishes and the gas mileage. I am not looking for a debate, just presenting our own views. We have had Ford, Chevy and Toyota, and sadly, the Toyotas win for now. The HH interior is just impeccable, it could almost pass for a Lexus. It beats the Explorer and the Escape and the Freestyle as well, in our opinion. For reliability, our Toyotas have served us well into 200K miles with no engine troubles. Cannot say the same for Ford or Chevy. Too many little leaks, rattles, fixes for the Ford and Chevy's and in the end the cost all added up. I do not enjoy saying this about our own manufacturers but we just have to get better and care more.
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    gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    I'm sure everyone here wants (and feels a need) to defend American cars to some extent . . . and that's been the problem. They've wrapped it their products with our patriotism. And now we're the only schmucks on the planet who'd buy these things. Almost everywhere you go in the world, you hardly see an American car. You'll see more French cars (which are awful) than American overseas.

    Japanese? Every corner of the planet.

    I hope one model year I'll be wrong. But just go look at the CR lemons and CR rec buys. There's not one T lemon. Not one. There's probably only three of four T models that are NOT on the rec buys.

    We can't measure Ford, GM or Chrysler's quality (or promises) today. We have to wait tens years and see what the resales are and which models are getting crushed.

    Because all the hopeful talk of a rebirth in Detriot has been heralded every year. But ever decade it's the same story in the bluebook and junkyard.

    No one would be happier when this is not longer true.

    If your Ford is making you happy now, I'm even happier. And if your still happy at its end-of-life, I'll be over the moon. And I really mean that.

    But it's a bit early to tell and the precidents aren't good.
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    molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    I definitely agree with what you have to say. Truly a sad commentary. I do believe that Detroit iron is improving. GM has made some great strides. Regardless, any new car I buy will be from Asia, as I covet reliability more than anything else. 32,000 happy miles in my '04 Prius. I love passing gas pumps that say $2.59!!!
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    discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    Stevedebi,

    I thought the 4WD was electric on the rear wheels?
    The rear system is electric as you said. The 4WD system is just Toyota's "4WDi". Toyota says it comes on only when the car needs power to accelerate or to maintain traction. Our observation via the "Energy Screen" jives with Toyota's explannation. The RX400h has the exact same system. Toyota does clearly state this car is *NOT* for off-road use. The stated reason is overheating. In slow crawling or excessive "power-on" of the rear system, the battery will heat up too much and cost failures.

    If so, it is not suited for off roading anyway.
    It depends on what kind of off-roading. True off-roading means traveling on abandoned roads, trails or places that simply have no visible trails at all. One has to negotiate boulders, deep gullies, streams and challenging obstacles that require long travel suspension and low gear. 1 mistake and the car will get on its side or roll over completely. We did true off-roading only twice in over 35 years of driving. We will never take the HH into such terrain.

    We frequent remote camping spots so we encounter many national forest or parks dirt roads. These do not need real 4x4, any car with good clearance can make it. We have driven little Ford Escorts up some of these roads before with one person walking the road leading the driver over deep ruts, rocks and large stones so as to not damage the bottom of the car. Problem with such low clearance cars is that it will eventually see a rut that is too deep and the walk-in-front process is way too slow. Not good when one is trying to hike into a remote campsite before sunset. Our older Chevy V8 2WD truck with high clearance has no trouble. So we will take our HH into most roads and trails that the Chevy can handle.

    For us, the HH's 4WDi is a perfect fit because we do not need true 4x4 capabilities, just 4 wheel power or AWD on occassion. High clearance and good torque at low speed are all we need.

    On this trip, we noticed the HH used almost exclusively electric mode and power in all 4 wheels when crawling up poor condition dirt roads at about 5 MPH. It maintained electric mode up some steeper trails (almost 6% grade?) until the battery runs down to 2 bars (yellow). On several occassions, we were on the backside of a crest with rear wheels in deep ruts. We were concerned that the car, without a low gear, would accelerate and shoot over the crest when we step on the accelerator. It did not happen. A gentle continuous pressure on the accelerator activated all 4 wheels and the car easily inched up out of the ruts and over the crest smoothly in electric.

    We did not encounter any situation that would truly test the travel of each wheel and have no intention to do so :).

    Our own conclusion is that this car can easily negotiate flat dirt roads with some holes, ruts and stones as long as a driver exercise caution, use common sense, watch the fuel and drive within one's and the car's capabilities. It will take us to all remote trail heads we frequent in the western US without problems. THis car is not a 4Runner or a Jeep and is for sure *NOT* for true off-roading.
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    discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    Japanese? Every corner of the planet.

    This is very true. I was just in 2 3-rd world Asian countries recently and what do they use to slog through muddy logging trails and rocky stream beds? A version of the Land Cruiser.

    People there told me that they used to use WWII leftover Land Rover from British army and later replaced those with Toyota "Land Cruisers". They claim those cruisers last and last in tough jungle conditions though rust is a constant problem.

    I would love to see Ford or Chevy replace those cruisers one day. Your comments about the "patriotism" bit also is interesting. It seems "Free Trade" and patriotism/nationalism are contradictory concepts, but that is not for this forum.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "For us, the HH's 4WDi is a perfect fit because we do not need true 4x4 capabilities, just 4 wheel power or AWD on occassion. High clearance and good torque at low speed are all we need."

    Oh, I agree; my CR-V is in the same "light off road" class, although there are no limitations on the RT4WD (it will disengage if it gets too hot, but will not be damaged). I was responding to a post where the person wished for some low speed downhill capability (similar to the Land Rover), for better 4X4. The HH isn't meant for 4X4.
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    bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    It doesn't sound like you've been to Europe much, because you don't see so many Japanese cars there and you see lots of Fords and other European models. I bought the Freestyle because it met my needs and there wasn't a Toyota model that did. I realize that there's good and bad points in all cars, and you can have a lot of good cars from different manufactures where some are better then others quality-wise but they're all pretty good. But your comments make you sound like...well, I'll be polite with you. PS...Don't lead your life by CR black and red circles!
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I've been to Europe quite a bit and I see primarily European cars there. It is true that there are not too many Japanese cars there.

    Red dots... love them. Black dots... well American cars are getting better.
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    gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    Maybe it is patriotism if this is getting close to insults. Guys, it's a car and you didn't build it. Even so, I'm not criticizing you or even your car. I'm criticizing American industry.

    So, please keep on being polite if that's what saves you from saying what I "sound like."

    As it doesn’t “sound like” I've spent a lot of time in Europe, I should mention that I’ve spent close to half my life in Europe. So, I think the sounding system has malfunctioned.

    Those Fords aren't American-made and are no reflection of Detroit. Most models aren't even designed in the States. Is an Opel an American car? Is Chrysler German?

    We're talking about American-made cars. How many Buicks, Cadillacs or Mercurys have you seen in Europe? How many BMW, Volvos, Mercedes have you seen here?

    There is no comparison.

    Asian cars are 30% of the European market. The rest are Europeans.
    http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/22/business/wbauto.php

    That’s the same percentage as the US for Japanese cars, 30%
    http://www.newstarget.com/003194.html

    So, let's keep things fact-based and objective.

    CR is based on consumer reporting. I don’t see how it can be faulted. But please give me some objective measure of quality and the best has to be bluebook, repair records.
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    mballewmballew Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2004 4Runner (V8) and gas mileage on it is lousy and am thinking about trading it in on a Highlander Hybrid. Would like input from some HH owner's about how they like it. I have been reading some of the input and from what I have found is that it doesn't get as good a gas mileage as dealers say.
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