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Comments
First the mileage report, the HH did just over 26 mpg (280 mi/10.7 gal to cut off) on its 1st tank, no comparison from electronics since we don't have any of the Limited stuff and don't need it. This is mostly in city of Philadelphia driving, including a 5 minute hop to my office, around town to appointments mostly on city streets, and about 40 mostly highway miles (65 mph) to a CSA farm we belong to and church. The neighborhood is rather hilly so there are lots of ups and downs, stop signs and traffic lights every couple blocks, and I'm learning to be light on the foot to use/charge the battery as much as possible. It's also been hot and humid as ever around here so AC - which works very well - has been on all the time. Real world, this is 9 mpg better than similar driving with the Windstar, and the Windstar never got more than about 22 mpg no matter what the driving. And since the Windstar was running thousands a year to keep it up, it was time to trade. (aside, we stopped to get coffee this afternoon and my wife and one of our dogs stayed in the HH with the AC running - outside temp 93 degrees and in a sunny parking lot - and in 5 minutes the engine never came on. It would have been running in the van. 0 mpg but 0 gal used)
We made a couple of decisions in this purchase that go beyond simple $$$ and what will we save compared to purchase price. I am a video producer and regularly carry gear and crew, so the Corolla, Prius or other similar size vehicle aren't big enough for my work. We could have purchased another van, but our decision to move to one vehicle would get us walking, riding bikes or taking public transit more and save us on insurance, inspection and other expenses. Besides, my wife doesn't like to drive something as big as a van so size wise the HH works for her. With one vehicle we'll be not only saving gas but also, hopefully, doing more walking and biking. A side benefit for sure.
We are willing to pay a premium - and we accept that there is a premium - in order to get the energy savings that the HH offers compares to comparable vehicles that would fit our needs. The reality is that we will be saving real fuel over the life of the vehicle, and even if it never equals the premium we're paying, we are, in a small and very real way, making a difference, reducing dependence on oil, improving air quality, things like those that we consider important. Then again, we also pay our electric company a premium over our already high prices per kw/h for wind-generated energy. We're not wealthy by any means - my wife is permanently disabled and we've made careful calculations to be able to afford this purchase - but we are fortunate to be comfortable. It may sound foolish to some, but we think it's our responsibility. A couple of years ago we also moved to be closer to my place of work because the 45 minute to an hour commute each way seemed foolish and wasteful (I got the job after we moved into the previous house). Everyone needs to make their choices and decide their priorities - to us it's a lot more complex than dollar savings. As someone else pointed out here, the price at the pump is only a part of what we pay - and with the new energy bill we will be paying more to cover those billions in tax breaks - for gas and energy.
Ok, now to the car part. The HH is an extremely comfortable and easy to drive vehicle, easily as good as any I've driven in the 30+ years I've been behind the wheel, with a wide variety of cars, vans, wagons and SUVs that I've owned or rented on roads throughout the US, Canada, Europe and Australia. It's more comfortable riding that a friend's Acura on the same roads, even I think than another friend's Highlander Ltd non hybrid or the similar Highlander demo we drove, which agrees with what I've read somewhere attributed to the added weight of the battery pack. My wife is comfortable behind the wheel too. The vehicle is very smooth and quiet, we even drive it on cobblestone streets around here and it handles them well. The added safety features that help increase the price for the hybrid are an intangible like insurance, they definitely add to the cost, you hope you never need them, but if you are ever in the situation where you need them and they do the job they're priceless. For the relatively small production run for hybrids it's probably most cost-effective for Toyota, I suspect that if they have enough demand for more options they'll change.
I agree too that Toyota could have made the decision to go with the 4 cyl for better mileage - 0-60 numbers aren't so important to me - but they were able to spread the overall cost over more vehicles by using the same drive train in the Lexus - I suspect they'd never sell a 4cyl Lexus. The dealer was big on how peppy the HH is - and it is - so they probably made a calculated guess on which would sell better. The market hype at least is power, power, power - how many times do we need to hear a tv kid say "hemi" - so they're responding to the market. If they calculate right they'll sell out, if not they'll change the strategy.
Bottom line for us so far, we had a rapidly deteriorating vehicle that justified replacement, we decided that we'd be more responsible to ourselves and our health to force ourselves to depend on cars less, and we decided that it would be a responsible choice, given the way the vehicle would be used, to pay the extra premium for the real gasoline savings in mpg by purchasing the HH. Besides, from a car-driver's and user's view it's a great vehicle. And yes, our Prius-owning friends have excitedly welcomed us to the hybrid club.
Our local NPR station had a fairly good balanced discussion on hybrids last week - go to:
http://whyy.org/91FM/radiotimes.html and search on "hybrid" to listen to the show on line.
- John
I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't get "it." We just have two different goals. When I hear that Ford (!!!) has a SUV (using Toyota’s 1st generation HEV technology!!!) and getting significantly better MPG than my HH’s 2nd generation technology, I just shake my head. The Escape gets 29 MPG on www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ with a 56 car sample. We get 25.
Surely, it’s not too much to ask that the 2nd generation would get better consumption . . . not worse. Let me remind everyone that hybrid technology is hyped, designed and tax-credited (!!!!) to give better energy use . . . NOT faster cars.
If I was offered an SUV that could do 0-60 in 2 seconds or one that could go 50 miles on one gallon, I'd take the latter. And, no matter where you stand on this, there is no way on Earth this car should qualify for tax credits. For every model it should be based on what a 4cyl would get (not a 6). The Escape deserves the credit and the HH doesn’t.
Not that there’s anything rational about our tax policies since you could’ve bought an H1 Hummer and got a $106,000 tax break.
http://www.selfemployedweb.com/suv-tax-deduction.htm
The HH and the H Escape are worlds apart-one is near lux based on the premier midsized SUV from the premier car builder in the world(ignoring small German brands) and weighs 4400 lbs-the other is based on a economy (3800 lbs which explains the MPG difference)class small SUV.I think they are both good bets to"pay back" relative to the "normal V-6 motored version of same".With the Escape Hybrid this is a lock-the Escape V-6 gives 12-27 in Cr testing vs 22-(and I forget hy).You can buy a base FWD Escape H for under $25000 now-some say $23000.
I like them both,but one is small Economy,one is midsized near lux rocket ship.(the Lexus folks are paying for the HH-they should be beefing)).Charlie
There's a huge physical size difference between the two. The Ford Escape is a small SUV. The HH is more like a mid-size SUV (comparable to my current Jeep Grand Cherokee - which is comparable to the Ford Explorer - the FEH's big brother). The comparison just isn't there - they're both in the greater SUV family, but that's it.
I test drove the FEH and found it lacking in space, handling and power. I had to floor it with the engine whining just to safely merge onto the interstate.
My goal is an SUV which meet my needs (carrying capacity, reliability, handling in snow) which gets better gas mileage and is better for the environment. The FEH fails to meet my needs. The HH apparently does.
I'm scheduled to test drive one on Monday (I've already test driven the gas-only Highlander) and if I like the power and handling I'll probably buy it. I'm already sold on size, mileage, and features.
I helped a friend shop for and end up buying a Highlander Hybrid a few weeks ago, and we drove the escape hybrid...besides the issues you already mentioned....the A/C shuts off (stops cooling) at stops when the ICE shuts off...we can't have that in Tucson summers...
BTW, we just returned from a mini-vacation, my friend and his wife, and me and my wife in his HH Limited FWD. I drove the whole time...wooo hoo! ...roughly 900 miles....27mpg on the first leg (300 miles highway) 31 mpg 2nd leg (half highway, half sightseeeing in grand canyon, sunset crater Nat monument..some around town creeping in Fagstaff in the evening....and then on to about 60 miles south of Phoenix where we filled up for the remainder of the trip to Tucson.
VERY nice car, and I can compare directly to my 05 gas V6 Highlander Limited. If anyone would like a real world comparison, let me know...
One really intersting thing...when we got into town, after driving about 150 miles on the interstate, the avg MPG would increase as we drove stop and go ..definately different from my gas only Highlander....very cool...
I think most people would agree with you on this point. I don't care that the HH gets 270 HP. If toyota made a HH that got 200 HP, that would be ok with me as well, provided it gave me 30+ mpg real world mileage. But I wonder, given the current state of the technology, if that's even possible. Imagine if Toyota put the current FEH engine into the HH. At BEST we would see the upper 20's, low 30's that FEH drivers are seeing based on the fact that this engine would be pulling a heavier car. And from the reports Ive read, the power on a FEH has been described as "adequate" which would translate into "sluggish" if it was in the heavier HH. I'm willing to bet toyota engineers ran a bunch of models of possible engine combinations and found that the current 3.3L + electric would give a "decent" tradeoff between power and economy (as well as platform sharing with the RX400). Of course this is PURE SPECULATION on my part. I'm wondering if the RX400 didn't exist, what the outcome would have been for the HH.
Am I disappointed? a little. like a lot of people here, I would have prefered to see an emphasis on economy for the HH (leave the performance for the RX400). But it's still a SIGNIFICANT improvement over the gas highlander and other mid-sized SUV's. I am going to admit that I got caught up in the hype. I guess in a way, it's good for me that I didn't get my HH in the first month so that I could have time to digest some of this information coming out and give myself time to reconsider. Don't get me wrong, I still want to buy this car. But in light of the potential savings I might get by waiting, I think I'll put off my decision to buy.
Well, not according to Ford. They independently came up with what turned out to be a similar system, and exchanged patent licenses with Toyota to avoid patent disputes. I'm not sure what licenses Toyota acquired in the deal, or what else they got.
I would feel much better about the Escape hybrid if it did indeed use any Toyota hybrid drive system. It is a ford developed system that is similar. Therefore it is in it's first year.
Reread your 1st 2 sentences before responding,but I just had to correct that outright BS.Charlie.
PS Most of the owners aren't complaining,but it doesn't deliver EPA city numbers-but very few vehicles do.Prius EPA -city-60 Real life more like 40-50.No one expects to get EPA city numbers-just about 80%-which it delivers.Sorry to come down so hard,but 31 mpg city from a ICE AWD Highlander is just too........-and you asked for correction!
Next subject: I had the worst squeak coming from some place forward of the front seats. It wasn't in the dash area and it wasn't suspension related but it did get going really well on roads that were even just a little rough. It took several hours and three technicians at the dealership and they found it. It was the hood latch mechanism that was just a little loose causing metal to metal contact in such a way that it caused this squeak. I let it go for about three weeks hoping that it would just go away, but it just go worse. Now it is back to the way it should be. The second thing that I mentioned was a bit more wind noise coming from the second row passenger window. From what I now understand, this is a common complaint and one that Toyota has yet to address. Not a big deal, but it would be nicer if it were a bit quieter back there.
Wes
If you can get 31 MPG from your HH you should have no problem getting 20 MPG on the Highway with the Yukon. My partner gets 20-21 MPG hwy consistently on trips with his 5.3L V8. Around town it is more like 16 MPG.
I think this is an excellent point. I really enjoyed (test) driving the HH too -- even though I have a non-hybrid HL, the HH left a very positive impression -- it has a real solid feel. Sure, it costs a few thousand more than a non-hybrid, but has better acceleration and better city mileage (25 vs 18).
When even die-hard old-timers to the regular HL boards like jbollt trade their HLs for a HH, you know it has something going for it!
Congrats on your purchase, and welcome to the hybrid boards!
Interesting. That is closer to the mileage I got with my 99 Suburban with the 5.7L V8. I got 13 around town on short 5 minute trips and 17 MPG on longer highway trips. I know when my partner traded his Yukon for an Envoy with the inline 6 he hated that. Very poor mileage. He just bought a new Denali with the 5.3L and gets back up to 20 MPG on his trip home from Detroit.
The EPA numbers are 1 mpg less for the RX400 than the AWD HH.I'm not sure where that mpg went-any ideas?-the maybe 100 extra lbs-slightly lower gearing-heavier tire-wheel weight from those 18" slugs??I just don't see a MPG difference between the 2-do they spin the same RPMs at 60 mph??I bet there are some hot folks over on that Forum.On average those folks probably paid >$55000 to get the RX400 out the door.It came out a bit before the HH,and it didn't have the bad press that the HH got,so the dealers were able to work their gouging magic for much longer.We-HH buyers and prospects- on the other hand will have paid at least $15000 less for essentially the same vehicle,and some of us will get 2000 off our tax bill.We will soon be able to buy a AWD HH for $35000+TTL-$20000-$36000 out the door isn't too bad considering a comparable AWD ICE H would be $31000+TTL-say $34000!!$2000 difference and all that acceleration,safety,mide 20's city mpg.Hmmm.Folks who swallowed the NYT poison pen will lose out.The NYT didn't lie,but they did do what was essentially HY VS HY which was about even-about what you would expect looking at the EPA figures.
Does anyone know what package #1 is on the HH FWD.One of the local dealers internet salesman has offered a HH FWD with just pk 1 for $33279.In New Orleans they must not be selling-Hybrid tech isn't popular here,and our dealers are especially predatory.They don't do volume sales,so they try to max out every deal.They also expect to deal with a poorly educated(all respects) customer who has poor credit(of course this is less so on higher MSRP vehicles-yes,I am patting myself on the back-absurd in light of my recent reading comp problems,ha,ha)
Well,$33279-probably full MSRP-is a very good price for a New Orleans dealer-they must be sitting on the lots...
Package one-I'll have to look it up,if I don't find out here.Thanks for the RX400 tip..Charlie-
The FEH gets a little better mileage than the HH simply because it is a 4 cyl with LESS power. It has nothing to do with 1st and 2nd gen technology. The HH is better in every respect except mileage. The disparity between the two with respect to content is NO CONTEST. The HH has much more going for it and gets great performance and commendable mileage.
timothyt, "Lexus RX 400h Owners: Problems & Solutions" #12, 25 Jul 2005 9:33 pm
gunner, "Lexus RX 400h Owners: Problems & Solutions" #21, 29 Jul 2005 3:07 am
I wouldn't want to seem like I'm recommending anyone buy a Ford (or any other American car, sadly) but if you want to compare with the HH, I think it's fair to point out that the Escape can off-road. The HH can't.
Having had a 1st generation SUV (87 4Runner), I was astonished to find out that there are really two types of SUVs nowadays: those meant to go off-road and those that just look like it. The HH barely gets in the second category as it could get hurt trying to get through anything that requires 4X4. The big joke used to be that only 1% of SUVs went off-road. Now there are some that literally can't go off-road.
When I look at what else is out there, the HH is best. No doubt. BUT, it could be so much better.
Mainly, I just find it a depressing confirmation that most don't care about our environment and we still have this SUV culture when most people don't need one and now the SUVs really just a bigger, higher version of a car.
Greyhounds-hey,I should have figured that there was another retread Greyhound fan here.Phoebe and Isis (phoebeisis) are our retreads-Phoebe is 6 we have had for for about 2.5 years;Isis is 13.5-had her for 8 years..We currently are babysitting a big 10 year old male-Zoot-for a month till the owners get back.We have a Pilot now,and it is pretty good for the mutts.We passed on the Highlander because with 3 adults and 2 biggish dogs,the Pilot was better-the dogs could fit ok behind the second row-my son took the second row.Now our son is 19 and refuses to travel with us,so the dogs get everything behind the 1st row.Good to know that the HH is a good"greyhound" vehicle.You are right about the favorite position;they are very powerful sleepers.
One last question-the Toyota web site was unclear-do all these HH come with a power driver seat with up and down adj-it is really nice to make small adj on lone trips?For waaay over $30000 they should,but....Thanks.Charlie.
Driver's seat is 6 way power, works the way you want it to on trips, I like the small adjustment ability a lot. My wife still wants the seats from her '90 Corolla and thinks the power is a frill, but she misses her clutch pedal too (she's the HH too). But with her longer legs the power seat is great to have. - John
Hey, don't knock the spoiler. I used to see spoilers on SUV's and minivans and just laugh thinking about all the downdraft they needed while making a 100 mph turn. But they do serve a purpose as I later learned- they help keep the dust off the rear hatch. is it worth it? well that's up to you.
The problem I had with pkg #1 is that there are only 2 components of that pkg I want- the spoiler and the 6-cd stereo w/ steering controls. I don't mind having the other stuff, but if I could order separately, I would. Actually this was the same problem I had with the Limited pkg- all I wanted was the heated seats and compass mirror. I actually don't like the feel of leather and don't like the look of the wood grain trim. I kinda wanted nav, but couldn't get it w/o leather.
Anyone else experiencing this defect ??? other than the 'poorer then advertised gas mileage ???
Replying to: timothyt (Jul 26, 2005 8:53 pm)
I just read your post by suring over from the Highlander Hybrid board.
You are not in error when you reported unexpected acceleration when the ICE kicked in...
I experienced a very similiar situation when I prepared for a right hand turn from a fast moving highway.
as I proceeded to turn into the sidestreet the ICE kicked in and the vehicle 'lurched' forward directly towards another vehicle which was in the intersection waiting to turn onto the highway.
I slammed on the brakes, thereby initiating a shutdown of the ICE and swerved to the right.
I definetely think there is a problem here that Toyota NEEDS TO ADDRESS !!!
BTW my mileage has also been poor with 26 mpg on the first tank...did the dealer put something in the tank ????? to 24.3 to 23.2mpg.....hell, my 1990 4 runner with a 3.0 V6 got consistent 22 mpg.
Fellow Hybid Types, lets not sweep this problem under the carpet.
Sorry to those of you who paid close to 50K for a vehicle that does not perform as advertised, as I have for close to 40K....
One of the dealers I've been negotiating with in the south suburbs of Chicago lists Package #1 as containing (and I quote [caps theirs]): Fog Lamps, Color-Keyed Rear Spoiler, Urethane Steering Wheel w/Audio Controls, JBL Premium AM/FM/Cassette/6-Disc In-Dash CD Changer with 8 Speakers In 6 Locations & In-Glass Antenna w/FM Diversity Reception [I guess Diversity Reception means you can get broadcasts of all races, creeds, colors, and countries of national origin. And political viewpoints.], and Power Tilt and Slide Moonroof w/Sunshade.
And there you have it.
I'm wondering how well they're moving up here, too. I expected there'd be more of a rush for them, even to the point of dealers marking them up, but that doesn't seem to be happening at all; none of the dealers I've talked to is marking them up.
This same dealer quoted me a HH 4x4 w Pkg 1 for $36,675. Man: what's the name of your dealer in New Orleans? $2400 would make it worth a trip down the Mississippi down to New Orleans to come fetch it.
Assuming I decide to get it at all. The NY Times article has me rethinking everything: even if the figures are, as you deduce, about even, I'm still wondering if it's worth the extra $.
Onward & Upward,
Downthehighway
I'm guessing you live in the Chicago area-- instead of driving south to New Oreans, why not drive north for an hour and a half to Kenosha and take a HH for $1000 off with no haggling?? I've talked to some of the Chicago area dealers, and the attitude they're taking is that they are doing the consumer a favor by only charging MSRP. You could spend more time negotiating with a chicago dealer than the drive to Wiscocnsin would take and still not end up with as good a deal.
President Bush is supposed to sign the energy bill today. Over the next few weeks, word will get out about the new hybrid tax credit, and dealers will have an inventory problem on their hands. You'll be in a better position to negotiate in a month than you are today. Last week, Naperville had 3 unclaimed HH on their lot. While I have no doubt that these will sell (or have already sold), the time the car sits on the lots is getting longer and longer. The new tax credit and the number of people pulling out of their deals will only compound this problem for dealers as the months go by.
otis 1,thanks for the pk 1 info.So the spoiler isn't completely useless.Keeping the window clean is a plus,and it might even indicate "cleaner" air and a tiny hy mpg increase(nothing I would count on,but interesting).
Thanks all.Charlie
PS The RX400 members are a little less happy than the members here.The average mpg is about 24 mpg-about what you would expect considering the 30/26 EPA Numbers vs 33/29 and 31/28 for the FWD and AWD HH's.I did see one SB posted that is supposed to improve mpg-you might hunt that posting up.Some also complained of a sudden-dangerous-jerkiness when the ICE comes on at low speeds????
Thanks much for the tip re Kenosha. Probably you saw message #1209, in which Phoebeisis clarified that his Big Easy deal was for a FWD, while my price was for AWD. So there isn't such a glaring gap in the two prices any more. But $1K off would be great. I will definitely check it out. Do you know the name of the Toyota dealer up there?
But Otis1, I'm afraid I don't understand your second paragraph. President B did sign the Energy Bill today, tho I haven't heard any details. Are you saying that the NEW hybrid tax credit is LESS than the CURRENT hybrid tax credit (which is $2K, unless I am misinformed)? Then I get your paragraph. And, in keeping with that sense, it must go into effect immediately, yes?; I've heard that the current credit was to be in effect for the duration of '05.
Man. All this info is great, but processing it all gets to be like trying to keep kudzu pruned.
Thanks, Otis1.
Onward & Upward,
Downthehighway
The current law gives you a tax DEDUCTION - you deduct $2000 from your income and figure the tax.
That means that next year people will get about $2000 off on a hybrid. This year, it's $2000 times their tax rate - or something around $600 (for most people who can afford them).
No, the new tax Credits do not take affect until 1/1/06. You are still on the old much lower deduction plan till the end of the year. This is to your advantage. You can use that as a leverage to get a better deal now. Or let the dealer wait on a sucker that does not read the paper. Get your $2000 off now or walk out the door. Also should be more selection available up till the end of the year.
Anyway, yes, the HH is not the "optimal" financial decision in some sense--but, come on, if we're all only working on the fiscally-best plan, nobody should be buying new cars at all; we should all buy used anyway. Given that, we know it will cost a little extra for the hybrid (though with recent gas prices, maybe not that much extra over the years), but I'm willing to pay a little extra to be a little cleaner and I certainly don't mind the extra performance (nor will my wife). We're not getting marked up over MSRP by the dealer so that's not bad.
And on the tax deduction vs. tax credit thing: OK, I get that in 2005 it's a $2000 deduction and in 2006 it will be a credit, but my understanding was that it is not a flat $2000 but uses some arcane formula to figure out what you actually get. Anyone know what the credit would be for a Hybrid Highlander? If so, please speak up! If nobody knows the actual amount, then it's a bit early to be saying that the tax break will be better in 2006, isn't it?
Thanks for your input here. I'm unclear, tho: are you saying that a dealer can be bargained to knock $2K off the price to move a HH that otherwise might stay on his lot till next year when the tax credit, a much better deal than the current tax deduction, kicks in and which many buyers are gonna wait for?
And my strategy for going for $2K is that that is the amount I'm losing by buying the vehicle this year and sacrificing next year's tax credit (and helping him out by taking it off his hands). Yes?
Also: how do you get a line of mine to appear boldface in your message. Every time I try it I get this symbol: .
Also: thanks for your welcome to the Forum.
Onward & Upward,
Downthehighway
Best,
Downthehighway
Who 'out there' has actually BOUGHT an HH for 1K-2K off MSRP ?????
Step right up folks!! and get the deal of your life .......only if you dare !!!
Just curious :shades:
As for the CREDIT VS DEDUCTION controversy....
I do believe that the Chief Executive signed the bill today giving an opportunity for those' in the know' to 'petition for inclusion' allowing those' in the know' to benefit
from the same trough as others....seems only fair.... :P
This just came in over the wires...
"A quirk in the tax law may prevent many upper-middle-income homeowners and car buyers from getting the tax break, says Mel Schwarz, tax legislation director for accounting firm Grant Thornton.
Unless Congress changes the law, individual taxpayers who are subject to the alternative minimum tax will be ineligible for the new credits, Schwarz says.
A provision in the tax code has the effect of exempting this type of credit from the AMT, but it expires at the end of 2005, he says.The AMT, a parallel tax system originally designed to target the very wealthy, threatens to affect 20 million taxpayers next year.
and so it goes......
Do I detect bitterness in your posts? Unless you are a car salesman you should want others to get the best deal possible. Personally I think Toyota should be selling these hybrids way below Invoice, as the early adopter's are doing their R&D for them.
It also sounds like you do not believe there should be any government subsidies on the hybrids. Maybe it is a chance for the working stiff to get something back. Corporations do it all the time.
PS
I got $1500 off the hybrid option on my GMC PU truck. Now I don't have to lug a generator around when I need 120 AC
http://www.carmax.com/dyn/searchengine/searchresults.asp?NewUsed=0&SearchType=0&CityMarket- =2&CityMarketLabel=Baltimore%2fDC&Location=7806&LocationLabel=Laurel+Toyota&HasCookie=true- &PageType=1&Make=TO&MakeLabel=Toyota&Model=HIHY&ModelLabel=Highlander+Hybrid&Price=5&Price- Label=Any+Price
In case you haven't figured it out, the dealer in Kenosha is Carmax. there are no AWD pkg1's there now. but you can order one and it will be delivered in 6 weeks.
I posted on the "tax and incentive" forum (or whatever it's called) and based on MY INTERPRETATION of the energy bill, the AWD gets a $2600 credit, and the FWD gets a $3000 credit. But this is a "best case scenario" based on 2 assumptions I made.